Also I found it interesting that Anaconda is a friend of Winthrop's. Like Winthrop he has really nice stuff but a lot of it never gets sold becase of high ebay reserves. After a while I just give up bidding on sales where the reserves are at retail and same goes for shopping in coin shops where one can never get a bargain.
I know Winthrop Carner. He's a good dude and i buy a lot of coins from him.
You treat him well, he treats you well. You treat him like crap, he'll treat you like crap. Seems fair enough, eh? Oh, and by the way - he knows his coins.
<< <i>He writes the relisting fees off his taxes? He might not be as dumb as some say. >>
you hit it dead on the nailhead. every dime of every ebay monthly invoice is 100% off against your net profit figure as are hundreds of other qualified able deductables. one may actually make and walk with 6-750k net cash in hand/pocket over a year but by the time a good accountant is done you pay tax off 200-250k,simple as that....the way i look at it the more tax i have to pay the happier i am. it meant i made more money net result...
Adrian- So........let's see......I'd be wise to treat him well, right? Anyway, what is his Ebay id? I'd like to take a look at the coins he offers. Thanks!
<< <i>Adrian- So........let's see......I'd be wise to treat him well, right? Anyway, what is his Ebay id? I'd like to take a look at the coins he offers. Thanks! >>
He has alot of interesting coins in a hodgepodge of slabs.
Oddly, I have seen as many as 50 auctions all due to close in minutes w/o a single bid. His starting prices and / or reserves are often too high. I wonder how the guy makes a living. WHy post on ebay if you sell less than 10% of your listings.
I did buy from him a few years ago and it was a straightforward no hassle experience. I got a nice hard to find Indian qtr eagle.
Hey Pepperdoodles (doops)! Quick! Run! I think there are some NTC slabs closing over at Centsles' auction. Go get you a few dozen.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner.
<< <i>Hey Pepperdoodles (doops)! Quick! Run! I think there are some NTC slabs closing over at Centsles' auction. Go get you a few dozen.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner. >>
come on dub, you dont have to "play stupid" you just FLAT OUT are !
<< <i>Hey Pepperdoodles (doops)! Quick! Run! I think there are some NTC slabs closing over at Centsles' auction. Go get you a few dozen.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner. >>
come on dub, you dont have to "play stupid" you just FLAT OUT are ! >>
WOOP ! TYPO ! i mean "bud" NOT dub.....gettin hot in here iddnit idnit?
I've looked at some of his auctions in the past. Absurd prices, coins never sell, listed over and over. Hard to believe he's not losing money that way.
I think Win Carner is one of the BEST and most wonderful people in Numismatics. I have never bought a bad coin from Win. Furthermore, I find him to be extremely pleasant, intelligent, kind, and wonderful company. I only wish I could meet MORE Win Carners in my numismatic life. His numismatic skills are superior. He has worked for Stacks (in NYC) and Heritage (in Texas) both of which are among the most prominent Numismatic houses in the Country. In short, Win's name says it all. He is truly a WINNER!
I bought a pattern from Win a few months ago. He was fair, pleasant and straightforward, all of which came be hard to find in this business. The pattern was also fairly priced to begin with.
By my admittedly quick count, about 458 of his last 500 auctions had no bids at all. Didn't look to see how many sold of the ones that had bids.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I don't buy coins on ebay.....period. It's too rampant with scumballs and scam artists. Although, I know that there are certainly honest dealers on ebay, I can get similar deals through the mail, at shows, or via internet auctions (Heritage, etc.).
That being said, I do ofter peruse ebay for numismatic reasons and, sometimes, just for fun. I have seen Winthrop's auctions over the past 2 years and everytime I have the same reaction: "Winthrop, what in the he11 are you doing??"
Some have stated possible business motives for Winne-The-Pooh listing coins over and over again. None of them are logical, IMO. Tax write-off? Are you kidding? No matter how you slice it, it's a loss. Anaconda is apparently a brilliant business person, so perhaps he can expand on this issue. Oh, and the idea that Win is using ebay to advertise his business......the only message that he is "advertising" is that he has overpriced coins. This is not a good message to advertise.
Here's another thought on the little, side debate that occurred regarding the listing fees: you guys are missing the BIG financial drain here. It's not the approximate $3 listing fee, it's his TIME. 478 auctions out of 500 receiving no bids? How long does it take to relist an auction? According to my calculations, Winthrop Carner makes $1.23 per hour. Isn't that illegal is any state? Frattlaw?
He may be a talented numismatist. He may be a nice guy with ethics. One thing he is not: a cunning businessman. I like contagious' analogy regarding crayons. Anaconda, I don't know you, but I have watched your auctions with similar disbelief. I am sure that you have been the subject of threads in the past, but I am new here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that you list $150,000 coins on ebay just to puff your chest. Right? Maybe Winthrop is doing the same thing, but with $500 coins.
Wow, easy big fella. Why are you so worried about Win's auctions or his financial well-being? I'm sure he doesn't give a hoot about yours.
For all your fussing about his outrageous prices, it sounds as though you're bitter about not being able to buy his pieces at the price you'd like. Suggestion: get over it.
I get such a kick out of people who claim that only a fool would buy on ebay. Heh. Ebay has its share of disgusting, rotten apples but its not the only place they reside. So many people, I'd be willing to bet, think of themselves as terribly smart for not buying on ebay - even as they get snookered by their marginal-quality local dealer.
Good coins can be found everywhere. Bad coins can be found everywhere. You are doing yourself a disservice when you don't take the time to give all possible venues a try.
I bought one coin from Win Carner. It was a nice, but expensive coin. Fast shipping and no problem transaction.
I think many of his coins are listed with extremely high prices and I don't buy them. However, how he sells is his choice. They are his coins, his time, his money.
I wish I could buy the material I'm looking for from myself on eBay. Some people just got some great deals last night. And they'll get the red carpet treatment too.
In a thread some time ago I wrote how I averaged about $1.00 an hour on my eBay sales.
Now I can't speak for Win's or Anaconda's motives but for me it is plain fun and I enjoy doing it.
I have never made a nickel off of my movie going hobby or my book reading hobby or the many other hobbies that people participate in that pay large sums of money to do.
Coin collecting is a hobby I enjoy and I enjoy finding coins to list on eBay for sale regardless of the financial outcome.
If you claim listing and selling fees on ebay as advertising on your taxes then you can write them off no matter if you made money or lost money. It is a expense of doing business just like rent and wages.
How can you make any of those statements about Mr. Carner?
You know nothing about him or his business.
Anaconda says that he does know him and "he drives a brand new car, and he's been a full time coin dealer for many years, something some of us only dream about." Sounds to me like he knows what he is doing.
I don't know him and have never purchased from him but I do know about running a business and any successful business needs Tax write-offs, and eBay fees are a cost of doing business.
<< <i>He writes the relisting fees off his taxes? He might not be as dumb as some say.
in order to write off the fees you have to have income to write them off against. >>
And it's a deduction not a credit, which means assuming he's in the 33% tax bracket, he's offsetting 1/3 of his losses in listing fees against income, not the whole thing.
Sorry JMOORE, I just lost my cool for a minute. I have never dealt with Winthrop, so I should probably not saying anything at all. I think my response was motivated by the many, many times that I have viewed his auctions. Sometimes I laugh, sometimes and cuss. I should just learn to hit the back-button on my browser. Withrop and Anaconda, no offense!
For relisting, with modern software, it is virtually no effort or time. Click about three buttons and all 500 auctions are relisted. Certainly less than five minutes.
yeah i understand that jb, but the logic of spending $5 so you can net $1.50 in tax relief doesn't make much sense to me.
i think it all boils down to pride - it's worth it to him to eat a bigger loss than to salvage a smaller loss while being "talked down". that's not good business sense IMO.
When I list and sell items on ebay and they don't sell and someone offers me close to what I paid for the coin then I take it. The way I look at items for sale is if you sit on them you CANNOT make money on that item if it does not sell for a long time. If you sell that item at a lower profit but are then able to buy another item with the original money invested then you can profit on the next item.
i believe he should sell the items after they have been listed a couple of times at a lower price and move on.
Yikes! I've met Winthrop Carner and never dreamed a thread about him would generate 82 replies!
I've bought only a single piece from him but the deal was an easy one. He said, "I want X for that coin", and I said, "okay". (Ruthless b@astard!)
Seriously, he seems like a nice enough fellow. I liked him all right. But perhaps that was because he had so many nice things to say about my toned dollar collection. Flattery will get you everywhere!
I have known Win for some time. Bought about a half dozen coins from him, none over $1,000. He is highly ethical and highly experienced. He knows what his stuff his worth to the right buyer. Win does his own thing, he does not care what you think. Opinion - His use of ebay is just part of his retail business strategy. Ebay offers more exposure than the major coin papers and magazines. It also provides the seller direct access to the market target. By having to perform search or select routines to view his listings, you have demonstrated that your potential as a buyer is significant. On the basis of "advertising dollars per highly qualified prospect (buyer) basis", his ebay expenses are not significant.
Bought a nice Dahlonega from Win last month price was very reasonable. One of the very few dealers from whom I would buy a coin sight unseen. Known Win for many years and he is knowledgable, honest and has a 'good eye' for nice coins. He is especially good with southern gold looking for original surfaces [skin] with color.
I am now convinced that Winthrop Carner is a genius and a businessman par excellance. This is the 3rd or 4th thread on his selling techniques, all of which have generated exceptional response. What exposure! What marketing! Truly amazing - how does he do it?
I write stories that rival Deb's, juggle three Maine Coon cats over my head at once, rant and rave about everything, offer PQ coins at near wholesale - no response. This guy sells nice coins at high prices and Bingo! Unheard of attention. Time to get out of the coin hobby and collect bottle caps.
There is a big difference between someone who casually sells on eBay, someone who sells part time on eBay, and someone who is a full time coin dealer with a retail shop who also offers his coins on eBay.
Good business sense for one is not necessarily good for the other.
This has been a very interesting thread. While I have not dealt with Win, I do have considerable experience with small businesses and large businesses, including teaching at the University level. That said, I am guessing that Win does not view his relisting activities (and attendant costs) on the basis of an single coin. Rather, I suspect he looks at his average margin per coin and the overall costs of listing, relisting.. etc on eBay and views the results in aggregate.
If you have a fixed price point in mind, and do not discount, the rest of this is just the cost of business. It may be that certain segments of his market carry the rest and if he is doing well overall, then don't change a process that works.
Obviously this strategy does not work if you never sell your product. However, it seems to work for Win. Also, another good point that was made is the "free" advertising. If you establish a presence in the market and people keep you on their list of material resources, then you have an additional benefit.
I really believe the key is to look at the results in aggregate. Also, from Win's perspective, why don't you spend the extra $20 for a $500 coin if you really want it. A seller of generally quality material would tend to believe in his inventory and thus be less inclined to discount.
One last thought, if a strategy does not work over a long period of time, it tends to be abandoned by the user prior to getting in trouble financially. I would suggest that while it may appear that it is a flawed strategy, there are components you do not see and that it is working for Win.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
Interesting thread. I would note that the majority of R&I's listings on eBay frequently go unsold. Would anybody argue that Rick Tomaska is a stupid businessman?
<< <i>Opinion - His use of ebay is just part of his retail business strategy. Ebay offers more exposure than the major coin papers and magazines. It also provides the seller direct access to the market target. By having to perform search or select routines to view his listings, you have demonstrated that your potential as a buyer is significant. On the basis of "advertising dollars per highly qualified prospect (buyer) basis", his ebay expenses are not significant. >>
It doesn't work for this buyer. I've run across some of his auctions in searches for specific coins I do regularly. I've seen his prices out in left field, and now when I see his name attached to an auction, I just go on to the next one, without checking the price guides any more. I never thought of contacting him directly, as haggling usually is good for a few percent off, but that would still leave his prices in the stratosphere, IMO.
it doesn't matter what floats his boat - i couldn't care less how he moves his merchandise.
but there's one inescapable truth in business - turnover. if you are offered a profit for the coin why not just take it? there's trillions of coins out there, buy another one and shop that one. when you sit on the same merchandise there's no flow of cash.
it's not even the cost of multiple auctions - that's irrelevant. it's the cost of, say, a stagnant $5000 coin that could have been turned into $6000, a new $6000 coin turned into $7500, a new $7500 coin turned into $9000.
or instead of getting married to that $5000 coin standing firm on your original $6200 price tag - assuming you eventually sell it, you haven't gained $200, but lost $2800 in opportunity cost.
now i am assuming a pure businessman, with no love of the product himself. in which case being attached to a coin is understood.
but there's one inescapable truth in business - turnover. if you are offered a profit for the coin why not just take it? there's trillions of coins out there, buy another one and shop that one. when you sit on the same merchandise there's no flow of cash.
Two questions for you:
1. How do you know what his profit margin is? Maybe he has more money into that specifc coin than you realize?
2. How do you know that this is his only inventory? Maybe this is the "E-Bay caliber" stuff and he does most of his business at shows?
I bought a nice coin off him about 1 1/2 years ago for $400 which I thought was a fair price for this nice PCGS MS65 dollar. I have a feeling I would not have much trouble getting my money back or finding a willing buyer for it.
It's also the perception of quality merchandise. When he repeatedly lists merchandise and hangs a big pricetag on it, even if it goes unsold he attains (true or not) the reputation of having high quality merchandise. We've seen some testimony to "high quality" in this thread, so the perception is there.
We don't usually use "Walmart" and "quality" in the same sentence. I would argue that Walmart's quality is on par with any other retailer. The problem is Walmart's model depends on them blowing merchandise out the door at small margins, high turnover - and it seems to be working for them.
On the flip-side, "Porsche" is a word that commands respect. Their model absolutely depends pricing most people out of their market to attain a reputation of "quality". Does this mean they're higher quality? it means they're higher priced, but with that comes the perception of higher quality. Porsche would be absolutely killing themselves by marketing an affordable car.
The "quality" model shouldn't work with coins. A dealer has nothing to do with the quality of his coins. A PQ coin could just as easily be in a discounter's case in an ACG holder at the county fair as in the Eliasberg collection. But, the perception still remains.
i don't know what his margins are but it doesn't matter. At some point it becomes economically sensible to sell the coin for whatever you can get even if it's at a loss. People often confuse the price they paid with the value, thus if Win pays $30,000 for a coin it's not necessarily woth $30,000.
if Win waits for 10 years to find a buyer of that coin for $35,000 rather than cutting losses after 6 months and cutting it for $29,000, he will have lost the use of $29,000 for 9-1/2 years. Assuming a dealer such as Win would constantly be in a position to acquire coins he could turn over faster, the cost of taking the loss could be much less than sitting on it.
If Win's system is working for him. Maybe he's in a position that he already has plenty of available cash for other coin purchases and can afford to tie up that cash for a while longer. Maybe he doesn't have the capacity to expand his inventory anyway - thus it makes sense to wait for a better deal. Maybe he loves his coins and they pay him personal dividends in sitting on them. If it works for him, it's cool.
That comment brings up an interesting question.....or debate. Who's the more talented eBay'er, Deb or Winthrop? Their stategies are on the extreme ends of sales techniques. Deb is a babbling old lady who knows nothing about coins, sells only raw coins, has terrible images, and just throws her coins out there with no reserves, $1 starting prices, etc. Winthrop, on the other hand, claims to be a professional numismatist, his scans are awesome, his coins are nice, everything is slabbed, he says very little about each coin, but he has reserves and ridiculous prices. Deb sells everything, yet Winthrop sells nothing.
I would like to hear DeepCoin's opinion on these distinctly differnt marketing approaches, since he is a college business professor. Also, I would like to have an informal vote on this subject. Who's the better business person, Deb or Winthrop?
A dealer has nothing to do with the quality of his coins.
Could not agree with this statement at all. A dealer has to pick up their inventory somewhere. Whether they do that by looking through raw stuff and slabbing it themselves, or by finding their inventory from wholesalers, high quality inventory reflects highly on the dealer.
but the coin itself is indifferent to who owns it. when you say "quality" the coin could grade PO01 or MS70. Should we assume Braddick is an unreputable dealer because his coins are "lower quality"? he simply caters to a different market.
i could own the same coins that eliasberg owned. who is selling them makes no difference.
but the coin itself is indifferent to who owns it. when you say "quality" the coin could grade PO01 or MS70. Should we assume Braddick is an unreputable dealer because his coins are "lower quality"? he simply caters to a different market.
You make a major mistake by associating grade with quality. Braddick would tell you that it is a real bear to get his coins into slabs because at that level of circulation, most are no longer problem-free. Walk around a show and you can see the difference. A dealer may have a case of generic MS-65 Morgans, but the fact that the dealer has a bunch of slabbed silver dollars does not make them quality coins.
Even a bad dealer may get lucky and stock a few PQ pieces, but you won't find bad dealers who manage to maintain a constant supply of solid material.
Comments
You treat him well, he treats you well. You treat him like crap, he'll treat you like crap. Seems fair enough, eh? Oh, and by the way - he knows his coins.
adrian
<< <i>He writes the relisting fees off his taxes? He might not be as dumb as some say.
you hit it dead on the nailhead. every dime of every ebay monthly invoice is 100% off against your net
profit figure as are hundreds of other qualified able deductables. one may actually make and walk with 6-750k net cash in hand/pocket over a year but by the time a good accountant is done you pay tax off 200-250k,simple as that....the way i look at it the more tax i have to pay the happier i am. it meant i made more money net result...
<< <i>Adrian- So........let's see......I'd be wise to treat him well, right?
as if you didnt know come on chumpyameo
Oddly, I have seen as many as 50 auctions all due to close in minutes w/o a single bid. His starting prices and / or reserves are often too high. I wonder how the guy makes a living. WHy post on ebay if you sell less than 10% of your listings.
I did buy from him a few years ago and it was a straightforward no hassle experience. I got a nice hard to find Indian qtr eagle.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner.
<< <i>Hey Pepperdoodles (doops)! Quick! Run! I think there are some NTC slabs closing over at Centsles' auction. Go get you a few dozen.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner. >>
come on dub, you dont have to "play stupid" you just FLAT OUT are !
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey Pepperdoodles (doops)! Quick! Run! I think there are some NTC slabs closing over at Centsles' auction. Go get you a few dozen.
You mullet. I wouldn't ask Adrian for Carner's id if I already knew it. I'm not into wasting other peoples' time. Unlike you. You're wasting my time. Now go limp back in your corner. >>
come on dub, you dont have to "play stupid" you just FLAT OUT are ! >>
WOOP ! TYPO ! i mean "bud" NOT dub.....gettin hot in here iddnit idnit?
<< <i>Pepperdoodles (doops), it is time for your medication. I think you have ruined enough customer relations for one evening. >>
arent you up kind of late? dont you have some newfounded nitch lots to run or sumpin?
matteproof
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
can someone give me his ebay ID?
thanks
By my admittedly quick count, about 458 of his last 500 auctions had no bids at all. Didn't look to see how many sold of the ones that had bids.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
That being said, I do ofter peruse ebay for numismatic reasons and, sometimes, just for fun. I have seen Winthrop's auctions over the past 2 years and everytime I have the same reaction: "Winthrop, what in the he11 are you doing??"
Some have stated possible business motives for Winne-The-Pooh listing coins over and over again. None of them are logical, IMO. Tax write-off? Are you kidding? No matter how you slice it, it's a loss. Anaconda is apparently a brilliant business person, so perhaps he can expand on this issue. Oh, and the idea that Win is using ebay to advertise his business......the only message that he is "advertising" is that he has overpriced coins. This is not a good message to advertise.
Here's another thought on the little, side debate that occurred regarding the listing fees: you guys are missing the BIG financial drain here. It's not the approximate $3 listing fee, it's his TIME. 478 auctions out of 500 receiving no bids? How long does it take to relist an auction? According to my calculations, Winthrop Carner makes $1.23 per hour. Isn't that illegal is any state? Frattlaw?
He may be a talented numismatist. He may be a nice guy with ethics. One thing he is not: a cunning businessman. I like contagious' analogy regarding crayons. Anaconda, I don't know you, but I have watched your auctions with similar disbelief. I am sure that you have been the subject of threads in the past, but I am new here. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that you list $150,000 coins on ebay just to puff your chest. Right? Maybe Winthrop is doing the same thing, but with $500 coins.
For all your fussing about his outrageous prices, it sounds as though you're bitter about not being able to buy his pieces at the price you'd like. Suggestion: get over it.
I get such a kick out of people who claim that only a fool would buy on ebay. Heh. Ebay has its share of disgusting, rotten apples but its not the only place they reside. So many people, I'd be willing to bet, think of themselves as terribly smart for not buying on ebay - even as they get snookered by their marginal-quality local dealer.
Good coins can be found everywhere. Bad coins can be found everywhere. You are doing yourself a disservice when you don't take the time to give all possible venues a try.
I bought one coin from Win Carner. It was a nice, but expensive coin. Fast shipping and no problem transaction.
I think many of his coins are listed with extremely high prices and I don't buy them. However, how he sells is his choice. They are his coins, his time, his money.
Clankeye
in order to write off the fees you have to have income to write them off against.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Now I can't speak for Win's or Anaconda's motives but for me it is plain fun and I enjoy doing it.
I have never made a nickel off of my movie going hobby or my book reading hobby or the many other hobbies that people participate in that pay large sums of money to do.
Coin collecting is a hobby I enjoy and I enjoy finding coins to list on eBay for sale regardless of the financial outcome.
Joe.
If you claim listing and selling fees on ebay as advertising on your taxes then you can write them off no matter if you made money or lost money. It is a expense of doing business just like rent and wages.
How can you make any of those statements about Mr. Carner?
You know nothing about him or his business.
Anaconda says that he does know him and "he drives a brand new car, and he's been a full time coin dealer for many years, something some of us only dream about."
Sounds to me like he knows what he is doing.
I don't know him and have never purchased from him but I do know about running a business and any successful business needs Tax write-offs, and eBay fees are a cost of doing business.
<< <i>He writes the relisting fees off his taxes? He might not be as dumb as some say.
in order to write off the fees you have to have income to write them off against. >>
And it's a deduction not a credit, which means assuming he's in the 33% tax bracket, he's offsetting 1/3 of his losses in listing fees against income, not the whole thing.
Ed
Tom
i think it all boils down to pride - it's worth it to him to eat a bigger loss than to salvage a smaller loss while being "talked down". that's not good business sense IMO.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
When I list and sell items on ebay and they don't sell and someone offers me close to what I paid for the coin then I take it. The way I look at items for sale is if you sit on them you CANNOT make money on that item if it does not sell for a long time. If you sell that item at a lower profit but are then able to buy another item with the original money invested then you can profit on the next item.
i believe he should sell the items after they have been listed a couple of times at a lower price and move on.
I've bought only a single piece from him but the deal was an easy one. He said, "I want X for that coin", and I said, "okay". (Ruthless b@astard!)
Seriously, he seems like a nice enough fellow. I liked him all right. But perhaps that was because he had so many nice things to say about my toned dollar collection. Flattery will get you everywhere!
GSAGUY
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Win does his own thing, he does not care what you think.
Opinion - His use of ebay is just part of his retail business strategy. Ebay offers more exposure than the major coin papers and magazines. It also provides the seller direct access to the market target. By having to perform search or select routines to view his listings, you have demonstrated that your potential as a buyer is significant. On the basis of "advertising dollars per highly qualified prospect (buyer) basis", his ebay expenses are not significant.
I write stories that rival Deb's, juggle three Maine Coon cats over my head at once, rant and rave about everything, offer PQ coins at near wholesale - no response. This guy sells nice coins at high prices and Bingo! Unheard of attention.
There is a big difference between someone who casually sells on eBay, someone who sells part time on eBay, and someone who is a full time coin dealer with a retail shop who also offers his coins on eBay.
Good business sense for one is not necessarily good for the other.
If you have a fixed price point in mind, and do not discount, the rest of this is just the cost of business. It may be that certain segments of his market carry the rest and if he is doing well overall, then don't change a process that works.
Obviously this strategy does not work if you never sell your product. However, it seems to work for Win. Also, another good point that was made is the "free" advertising. If you establish a presence in the market and people keep you on their list of material resources, then you have an additional benefit.
I really believe the key is to look at the results in aggregate. Also, from Win's perspective, why don't you spend the extra $20 for a $500 coin if you really want it. A seller of generally quality material would tend to believe in his inventory and thus be less inclined to discount.
One last thought, if a strategy does not work over a long period of time, it tends to be abandoned by the user prior to getting in trouble financially. I would suggest that while it may appear that it is a flawed strategy, there are components you do not see and that it is working for Win.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Opinion - His use of ebay is just part of his retail business strategy. Ebay offers more exposure than the major coin papers and magazines. It also provides the seller direct access to the market target. By having to perform search or select routines to view his listings, you have demonstrated that your potential as a buyer is significant. On the basis of "advertising dollars per highly qualified prospect (buyer) basis", his ebay expenses are not significant. >>
It doesn't work for this buyer. I've run across some of his auctions in searches for specific coins I do regularly. I've seen his prices out in left field, and now when I see his name attached to an auction, I just go on to the next one, without checking the price guides any more. I never thought of contacting him directly, as haggling usually is good for a few percent off, but that would still leave his prices in the stratosphere, IMO.
BINGO
but there's one inescapable truth in business - turnover. if you are offered a profit for the coin why not just take it? there's trillions of coins out there, buy another one and shop that one. when you sit on the same merchandise there's no flow of cash.
it's not even the cost of multiple auctions - that's irrelevant. it's the cost of, say, a stagnant $5000 coin that could have been turned into $6000, a new $6000 coin turned into $7500, a new $7500 coin turned into $9000.
or instead of getting married to that $5000 coin standing firm on your original $6200 price tag - assuming you eventually sell it, you haven't gained $200, but lost $2800 in opportunity cost.
now i am assuming a pure businessman, with no love of the product himself. in which case being attached to a coin is understood.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
You need to look at his overall business strategy.
Could be that he DOESN'T CARE if he sells a single coin on eBay.
Two questions for you:
1. How do you know what his profit margin is? Maybe he has more money into that specifc coin than you realize?
2. How do you know that this is his only inventory? Maybe this is the "E-Bay caliber" stuff and he does most of his business at shows?
It's also the perception of quality merchandise. When he repeatedly lists merchandise and hangs a big pricetag on it, even if it goes unsold he attains (true or not) the reputation of having high quality merchandise. We've seen some testimony to "high quality" in this thread, so the perception is there.
We don't usually use "Walmart" and "quality" in the same sentence. I would argue that Walmart's quality is on par with any other retailer. The problem is Walmart's model depends on them blowing merchandise out the door at small margins, high turnover - and it seems to be working for them.
On the flip-side, "Porsche" is a word that commands respect. Their model absolutely depends pricing most people out of their market to attain a reputation of "quality". Does this mean they're higher quality? it means they're higher priced, but with that comes the perception of higher quality. Porsche would be absolutely killing themselves by marketing an affordable car.
The "quality" model shouldn't work with coins. A dealer has nothing to do with the quality of his coins. A PQ coin could just as easily be in a discounter's case in an ACG holder at the county fair as in the Eliasberg collection. But, the perception still remains.
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1 Russ POTD!
i don't know what his margins are but it doesn't matter. At some point it becomes economically sensible to sell the coin for whatever you can get even if it's at a loss. People often confuse the price they paid with the value, thus if Win pays $30,000 for a coin it's not necessarily woth $30,000.
if Win waits for 10 years to find a buyer of that coin for $35,000 rather than cutting losses after 6 months and cutting it for $29,000, he will have lost the use of $29,000 for 9-1/2 years. Assuming a dealer such as Win would constantly be in a position to acquire coins he could turn over faster, the cost of taking the loss could be much less than sitting on it.
If Win's system is working for him. Maybe he's in a position that he already has plenty of available cash for other coin purchases and can afford to tie up that cash for a while longer. Maybe he doesn't have the capacity to expand his inventory anyway - thus it makes sense to wait for a better deal. Maybe he loves his coins and they pay him personal dividends in sitting on them. If it works for him, it's cool.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Now, let's not exagerate.
That comment brings up an interesting question.....or debate. Who's the more talented eBay'er, Deb or Winthrop? Their stategies are on the extreme ends of sales techniques. Deb is a babbling old lady who knows nothing about coins, sells only raw coins, has terrible images, and just throws her coins out there with no reserves, $1 starting prices, etc. Winthrop, on the other hand, claims to be a professional numismatist, his scans are awesome, his coins are nice, everything is slabbed, he says very little about each coin, but he has reserves and ridiculous prices. Deb sells everything, yet Winthrop sells nothing.
I would like to hear DeepCoin's opinion on these distinctly differnt marketing approaches, since he is a college business professor. Also, I would like to have an informal vote on this subject. Who's the better business person, Deb or Winthrop?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Could not agree with this statement at all. A dealer has to pick up their inventory somewhere. Whether they do that by looking through raw stuff and slabbing it themselves, or by finding their inventory from wholesalers, high quality inventory reflects highly on the dealer.
but the coin itself is indifferent to who owns it. when you say "quality" the coin could grade PO01 or MS70. Should we assume Braddick is an unreputable dealer because his coins are "lower quality"? he simply caters to a different market.
i could own the same coins that eliasberg owned. who is selling them makes no difference.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
You make a major mistake by associating grade with quality. Braddick would tell you that it is a real bear to get his coins into slabs because at that level of circulation, most are no longer problem-free. Walk around a show and you can see the difference. A dealer may have a case of generic MS-65 Morgans, but the fact that the dealer has a bunch of slabbed silver dollars does not make them quality coins.
Even a bad dealer may get lucky and stock a few PQ pieces, but you won't find bad dealers who manage to maintain a constant supply of solid material.