Noticed more NGC slabs than PCGS....

Hunt

As a side to my thread about NYC ANA show--I noticed a bit more NGC slabs than PCGS at the show--this was much more common in some types but overall, I would say that throughout all types NGC seemed more common. Any reasons on why this may be?

nwcs

Could just be one of those things.

gmarguli

Because NGC is getting more submissions than PCGS. PCGS has shot itself in the foot by playing all their games. Loosen here tighten there, refuse crossovers, etc. NGC just grades. PCGS plays games. Dealers don't want to submit to PCGS. Collectors are getting tired of the games and going to NGC.

littlewicher

Hmmmmmm.......... PCGS now the #2 service? The way they have been getting caught up in politics, it doesn't surprise me that they might be #2.

mdwoods

For the same reason you see more Toyotas than you do Rolls Royce cars. (He stated in a sniffling, snobbish, snotty, way!)

Hunt

I prefer PCGS over NGC for a few reasons and I still think they are number one in grading, but you're right they may be slipping. Does the white holders at NGC bother anyone besides me?

braddick

NGC plays most of the same games, just no one steps up to talk poorly about them here. Go figure.
If NGC consistently brought more cash into Dealers pockets there would be a mad rush to using their services over PCGS. There isn't. PCGS still grades more coins than NGC on a month to month basis. PCGS coins consistenty bring more money at auction (overall- not always a 'coin by coin').
There is NO loyalty in this hobby when it comes to Grading Services.
Loyalty is only based on the almightly dollar (and this comment does not judge, either way, that reality).

It's interesting to me that critics of PCGS continue to use their services.
If NGC is so wonderful- USE THEM. Stop sending your submissions to PCGS. Pretty simple.

If I don't like a restaurant, I stop going there.
If there's a CD out and the music doesn't appeal to me- I won't buy it.
Complain on the appropriate forum, but then follow up that complaint by NOT then giving them your money and soliciting their business.

Hunt

I spoke to some dealers about why NGC seemed to be grading so many FH SLQ's and he told me PCGS is tougher on grading SLQ's. I saw only one PCGS 1917FH SLQ and it was a terrible MS64.

Bikingnut

I also think that it has to do with the fact that you can now pay the 99 dollar one year fee at NGC to become a member and submit coins to be graded with out going through the dealer. I also saw on the thread on the thread concerning the 1909 VDB Lincolns that have come out of PCGS mislabeled as a 1909. One is being offered on Heritage right now. The other belongs to a board memeber who said PCGS offered to correct the error as long as he paid for shipping both ways. Seems to me that's the wrong way to do business, especially if you want to stay on top.

Dennis

goose3

I'll take a properly graded anacs coin any day over either of them! because chances are I will get it for less because of all the plastic buyers!

gmarguli

NGC plays most of the same games, just no one steps up to talk poorly about them here. Go figure.

They play games, but not like PCGS does. NGC grades to their standards. PCGS grades to their political agenda.


If NGC consistently brought more cash into Dealers pockets there would be a mad rush to using their services over PCGS. There isn't. PCGS still grades more coins than NGC on a month to month basis.

Not from what I've read. The last published data showed that NGC did more per month than PCGS. I believe that PCGS also includes bulk submissions that didn't meet the min grade as a "coin graded".


PCGS coins consistenty bring more money at auction (overall- not always a 'coin by coin').

Statistically the same.

braddick

Greg, I disagree they are statistically the same. But, lets assume, for argument purposes, you are right.
Why would they even be the same? PCGS= BAD. NGC= GOOD. Why wouldn't NGC coins bring higher prices?

gmarguli

It's not that PCGS is bad and NGC good. It's that PCGS plays games by bodybagging and undergrading coins in order to get re$ubmi$$ion$. The coins in their slabs are fine. Same with NGC. It's getting the coin into the slab at the correct grade that is the problem.

If they aren't statistically the same, care to explain the values listed on the front page of the Greysheet?

braddick

Gray sheet? Which week? Using only one isn't fair to PCGS, or NGC. Look at the overall pattern- using many weeks.
Also, I was hoping my one question would be answered. If NGC is more consistant and grades, "to their standards while PCGS grades to their political agenda" then why don't Dealers- who have NO loyality to either Service flock to NGC? Why don't NGC coins BRING MORE MONEY than PCGS?

It doesn't seem fair the BETTER Service doesn't garner not only the greatest growth but the better prices on the same grade of coins.
There must be some fundamental reason for that.

TomB

I believe there is some validity to what baseball is saying about the location of shows and grading services. I am based on the east coast and go to the larger east coast shows and one thing that I have noticed is that very many of the east coast dealers prefer NGC for generic coins simply because of their location. When NGC was in NJ (Parsippany) many of the NJ dealers would just drop off loads of coins for NGC because it was easier to personally drop them off and get a phone call to pick them up when they were done. These were, in large part, generic coins that had no real difference in price between PCGS and NGC. The more expensive or "service-sensitive" coins were usually sent to PCGS. This would lead to larger submissions to NGC while many or most of the more expensive and nicer coins went to PCGS. I'm not saying one service is better than the other, nor am I arguing that this happens everywhere. However, my own experience tells me that more east coast dealers will be at the ANA in NYC and at least some of these dealers will have used NGC for larger, generic submissions because of their physical location.

tradedollarnut

I think that several months ago NGC approached parity with PCGS on prices, but not any more. Shortly after PCGS stopped making coins, their prices realized started to go up. Recently, they completely broke thru the old barrier of a 15-20% premium over price guides and now can trade for almost the next grade.

The bottom line is that the coin will bring a price commensurate with its quality now. If a PCGS coin would've graded the next grade up at NGC, the seller can get that NGC price.

dbldie55

Being better is not always related to how often something is used. Look at microsoft, they produce unstable, insecure server operating systems, and there are businesses who demand that you use their product. (it is called marketing) It is a major joke at the company I work for when a customer is using MS and talks about security.

The dealer I know does send more coins to NGC than to PCGS. He sends them to the company that will get the most money for the coin. He doesn't deal in moderns, and has been very clear he never will, so none of these points are for that type of coin.

Myself, I like the look of PCGS holders, so that is the plastic I put my coins in.

Has anyone looked at a run of greysheets for changing trends? I suppose I could do that as I have a couple years worth.

Elcontador

Every three weeks or so this topics comes up. To reiterate my views:

1) I could care less who gets the most submissions
2) Re selling prices, whether PCGS or NGC coins bring more $ depends
entirely on the coin series. The following applies re MS 60 + coins:
a) Pre 1909 copper, Nickel coinage and FH SLQs are far more expensive
(can be a 30% price gap) in PCGS vs. NGC holders because PCGS has
higher grading standards (at least a 1/2 point) for these coins
b) I haven't seen this "standards gap" re Morgan $s, Barber, Seated or
Capped Bust (or Reeded Edge) coins
3) If you think the prices of the coins listed in 2)a are "the same,"
I could quit my accounting practice and sell you these NGC coins and
make enough $ to retire.
4) A grader spends 10 to 15 seconds on a coin. They make mistakes. I'm
guessing between 10-15% of slabbed coins may be graded incorrectly.
5) Grading standards for various coin series have changed every three to
five years or so.
6) Know how to grade a coin before you buy it.
a) Too many people / dealers go to large auctions and buy an expensive
coin which they think will upgrade
i) They pay a price midway between a coin's current grade & the
next one. They usually discover that they paid too much for a
coin which was properly graded in the first place.
ii) They pay such a price and because said coin has a lot of "eye
appeal," they figure it might be included in the 10-15% of
coins which are slabbed in a mistaken grade and get their
'upgrade' that way.
b) I won't even get into buying expensive coins raw. Caveat emptor.
c) If a coin will upgrade, chances are that a dealer will get his
hands on it before it is available to you or me. An exception here
is you've held onto an attractive coin long enough for the grading
standards to change a few times.

I get very frusted looking at overpriced coins because people do the things listed in items 6) a & 6) c.

keets

Pat, to answer your question regarding why NGC coins don't sell equal to PCGS coins, all things taken as being equal, is bias. holder bias.

al h.

gmarguli

Gray sheet? Which week?

Practically every week. It's within 5%. Considering that is an average of thousands of coins, it is the same.


Using only one isn't fair to PCGS, or NGC. Look at the overall pattern- using many weeks.

Go look. The pattern is there. They trade the same.


Also, I was hoping my one question would be answered. If NGC is more consistant and grades, "to their standards while PCGS grades to their political agenda" then why don't Dealers- who have NO loyality to either Service flock to NGC?

braddick, come on this was answered. NGC gets more submissions. Dealers have flocked to NGC. Go one step further. Exclude modern coins and what do you think the submissions of "real" coin is. 5-to-1 in favor of NGC? That's just a guess.


Why don't NGC coins BRING MORE MONEY than PCGS?

It has nothing to do with the process to get them slabbed. Once the coin is in the slab the coin sells. Sure some coins, especially moderns, sell better in one slab.


It doesn't seem fair the BETTER Service doesn't garner not only the greatest growth but the better prices on the same grade of coins.
There must be some fundamental reason for that.

Because PCGS spends a fortune on marketing telling us how great they are. NGC is content to just prove it by grading.

vam44

If they aren't statistically the same, care to explain the values listed on the front page of the Greysheet? >>


Howscome PCI rates better than ANACS, and has for as long as I can recall,according to the almighty GREYSHEET!
Tells me the greysheet percentages are meaningless and each slabbed coin should be judged not by the color of it`s "skin" but what`s inside!

michael

as usual tradedollarnut and tomb make very correct statements!!!!!!!!!! thnaks guys for your valuable and correct insights!!

for me i only buy the coin not the holder and if the coin is great then pcgs/ngc i really do not care

sincerely michael

on second thought i would rather get a great coin in an ngc holder as then it would be less expensive then in a pcgs holder!!

but as always BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC

braddick

"PCGS spends a fortune on marketing. . ." Really? Where? My latest copy of "The Numismatists" has no copy from PCGS. The latest Numismatic News and CoinWorld- very little advertisements from PCGS (actually NGC has a bit more).

Even if PCGS was "getting the word out" by spending a "fortune"- are you implying the collecting public are sheep?
ACG spends a "fortune" on advertising (seemingly more so than PCGS) and yet I don't see us clamering to the post office to send our coins to them.

People use PCGS because they believe in their product. People use NGC for the same reasons.
When one becomes much stronger than the other, the trend will shift in that Service's favor.

dbldie55

<< <i>Even if PCGS was "getting the word out" by spending a "fortune"- are you implying the collecting public are sheep? >>



Yes. That is the way it is with every business there is.

gmarguli

My latest copy of "The Numismatists" has no copy from PCGS.

You actually read The Numismatist?

Besides, The Numismatist is an ANA mag and the ANA is pro-NGC thanks to the $$$.

matteproof

PCGS is the GOLD Standard. NGC is close, but they are always playing "catch up" to PC. PCGS was the first with the slab - then came NGC. PCGS was first with the "registry set" concept, and now NGC is playing catch up with their own registry.

NGC will need to LEAD with an innovating idea in order to move forward and ahead (no, their coin "conservation" service is NOT my idea of innovative). Buy the coin - not the holder. If any of them disrespect you, consider jumping to the other.

matteproof

BigD5

I love these posts.
Braddick, I can say with a lot of confidence, that a lot of the dealers at my local shows have greatly reduced pcgs submissions and increased ngc submissions. That's a fact. That market indicator for the Greysheet is a crock. I think both ngc and pcgs do a good job. Greg makes some valid points on the "games" pcgs can play with submissions. I just talked with a dealer who received numerous bodybags from coins submitted from mint sets. That's a joke, and we're not talking about just a couple of coins here. Oh yeah, they were dipped in acetone prior to submission. Go figure. From personal experience, I have found ngc to be much better as a grading service. That doesn't mean I get "better" grades, just more consistent grading*, without any bologna. I'd still submit to pcgs.......if I could find a dealer, locally, who still submits to them

*One note, more consistent grading to MY eye.

braddick

<< <i>My latest copy of "The Numismatists" has no copy from PCGS. You actually read The Numismatist? Besides, The Numismatist is an ANA mag and the ANA is pro-NGC thanks to the $$$. >>


No need to insult me Greg. I haven't you.

dorkkarl

2 quick thoughts

(1) isn't ngc now the "official" grading service of the ana? could that play into more submissions?

(2) it is so easy to loose sight of the one truth about grading: it is an art, not a science. a grade is just someone's opinion.

gemseeker

Since NGC is the Official grader of the ANA, it seems logical that more the coins displayed will be in NGC holders. Why would you shoot yourself in the foot by displaying more PCGS material? Also, as touched upon earlier, PCGS is on the west coast and NGC is on the east coast. People will tend to send their items to the closer grading service unless some overriding factor would make them to send it further away. I think some of the numistmatic publications have been narrowly focused on what they perceive to be the leading grading services. Because of this many small slabbing companies will never make any appreciable dent on the numismatic scene. To be totally unbiased, all firms that have significant submissions should be included.

Elcontador

For the second and last time, you cannot compare PCGS and NGC in a broad brush for reasons I mentioned in my first post. Apparently no one has read it or all who have read it have chosen to ignore it. As PMH simply stated, "buy the coin, not the holder."

The problem these days is that many people are looking at pop reports and buying expensive pieces of plastic. They don't have a clue what they are buying, and couldn't grade said coin if their lives depended on it.

JJacks

Maybe dealers are trying desperately to sell off their NGC coins?

And keep their PCGS coins as long term investments?

Nah. Just that the PCGS coins sell better. We keep hearing that NGC gets more submissions then PCGS now, but what are the actual numbers. I think it is very close between the 2 services.

JJacks

Flash

Does the white holders at NGC bother anyone besides me?

You're not the only one. I think coins get hidden in the white NGC slabs and I think they're ugly. As others from this board have stated the past.. "plastic bars of soap". When I look at an NGC slab the first thing I see is the expanse of white space, not the coin. I think coins are hard to look at when all I see surrounding it is white space. Now when I look at a coin in a PCGS holder, I see the coin first and not semi-transparent plastic that surrounds it.

Hunt

Boy, I didn't anticipate such a debate on this topic. I agree with most everyone on choosing the coin over the "plastic" but sometimes you can find yourself looking at two very similar coins--both in different holders and I will always choose the PCGS over the NGC. That's just me, as I said earlier I just can't get use to those white holders--they just ruin a coin's look. I really prefer a coin not slabbed, but I buy primarily slabbed coins because of the security it offers (as far as protection from mishandling, etc) and also because it is, in my opinion more marketable to more people.

If NGC changed its holder I think it would help them sell their coins and services and maybe even take the lead in grading. But its become their "trademark" and I don't think they could ever change it because that would piss people off too. What do you guys think?

Flash

I've said many times, and with different coins, that they sure looked alot better in the PCGS holder than they did in the NGC holder. I just find them much more pleasing to the eye. With NGC, I just can't seem to see the coin for the slab.

gmarguli

PCGS is the GOLD Standard. NGC is close, but they are always playing "catch up" to PC.

Untrue. PCGS has played catch-up to NGC in the past. Even braddick will admit this. It goes back and forth.


PCGS was the first with the slab - then came NGC.

Actually, first was ACCUGRADE then came PCGS.


PCGS was first with the "registry set" concept, and now NGC is playing catch up with their own registry.

You mean listing a set of coins for everyone to see? Nah, that was done for a long time. PCGS didn't invent comparing sets of coins.


NGC will need to LEAD with an innovating idea in order to move forward and ahead

Like when they lead with designating coins CAMEO and PCGS quickly followed suit 10 years later. I believe that NGC also graded foreign coins before PCGS. Same with errors. Same with varieties. Same with...

gmarguli

I've said many times, and with different coins, that they sure looked alot better in the PCGS holder than they did in the NGC holder.

It all depends on the coin. I crossed a toned coin to PCGS and after getting it back I realized that I liked the look of it much better in the NGC slab. I'm going to cross it back.

Many toned coins look better surrounded by the white slab.

braddick

I'll admit- PCGS needs to play 'catch up' with NGC in one area they've overlooked: QVC. I've never in my life seen so many MS70/PR70 NGC coins in one place in my life- sold by such knowledgeable salesmen!
PCGS sure is missing a wonderful opportunity there!

EVillageProwler

It's interesting to me that critics of PCGS continue to use their services.
If NGC is so wonderful- USE THEM. Stop sending your submissions to PCGS. Pretty simple.


I did. If NGC misbehaves, and PCGS starts behaving, then I'll come back. If both misbehave, well, then I'll use ANACS more.

I submitted a $20K coin for walkthrough at NGC this week. Got it slabbed and at a slightly higher grade too. Needless to say, I was friggin' ecstatic. This coin is a classic rarity in one of the series I collect. I'm sure PCGS would've liked that coin in its holder.

Anyway, to heck with PCGS. They annoyed me once too often. Fortunately, I have options. (My coins retain nearly all their value outside the holders.)

EVP

michael

i like the pcgs slabs but the intersept shield slabs by icg are the best!!

also cameo gold and cameo silver look much much better in the white slab

prooflike rainbow toned coins look much better in ngc slabs the list goes on and on

but as always buy the coin not the holder

sincerely michael

EVillageProwler

I'll take a properly graded anacs coin any day over either of them! because chances are I will get it for less because of all the plastic buyers!

Here is a very sensible statement. (Seriously, no sarcasm here!) It's too bad that the ANACS holder is undersized. Otherwise, I'd keep all my ANACS coins in their original slabs.

EVP

braddick

EVP- Congratulations! I'm glad that worked out well with you. I own no $20,000.00 coins but imagine if I did I would do as you did and walk the coin through. I'm happy the grade is one you agree with.

EVillageProwler

Braddick,

Thanks. I know that this is off-topic, but you should've seen the scene when I got the coin back from Dave Lange. I went to the booth with 2 friends, and I was startled by the clapping and cheering from behind me. DWL was smiling too as he observed the scene. One of my friends even hugged me.

It was a huge hit for me, and I didn't even buy the coin at the show. (I've had the coin for years, and kept it raw. For a while, I carried it around at shows as a pocket piece! Not kidding here.)

As for the grade, I was ok with it. The coin was very meaty but had characteristic weakness of strike. It's that weakness that can cause a big swing in grade. I guess the superb luster and eye appeal of my EF coin carried it to an EF45. If NGC had AU'ed it, I would've been pissed. Then, it would've become an inferior coin for the grade...

EVP

robertpr

<< <i>Does the white holders at NGC bother anyone besides me? >>


Ohhhh yeah man those NGC holders are BUTT UGLY. Not only are they huge, but they overwhelm the coin. I actually like the look of the intercept shield around a coin in the ICG holders. But ICG's holders are ugly too overall.
IMHO PCGS really does have the most attractive holder, but they're slipping. That label is gettin mighty crowded! Maybe I should just crack all of em and put my coins in black ring airtites

braddick

EPV- Sounds like a great coin and your comment regarding being PO'ed if NGC had given it an AU50 is the pure collector in you! I also would rather have a coin rightly graded and have others when looking at it praise the coin to themselves then judge the coin for being overgraded.
Would you mind if I inquired as to what the coin is? I'm curious what coin you'de carry as a pocket coin.

Hoot

It's interesting to me that critics of PCGS continue to use their services. If NGC is so wonderful- USE THEM. Stop sending your submissions to PCGS. Pretty simple.

I’ve done this of my own volition. The Pathetic Coin Groping Service has graded my last coin until they can get onboard with ethical behaviour. (Not that I matter a bit to them).

You’re right braddick that PCGS often (but not always) brings better money. But this is primarily from those who are simply registry hoarders and not genuine collectors. There are gobs of registry competitors who will buy nothing but a PCGS coin just because of the label. Those morons are all competing against one another in a heat for the best label collection. Take a look at a serious collector – e.g. tradedollarnut – who pulled his collection from PCGS because he wouldn’t play their trashy games anymore. Now TDN is a collector – buys the coin and not the holder, and just consider his collection’s worth.

And there is no PCGS = bad vs. NGC = good. Like Greg said, NGC simply does not use its grading criteria as a weapon to manipulate a mass market – gee whiz, they actually have standards that they adhere to! Imagine that!

For those who think that PCGS has more stringent standards for grading their coins, take a serious look at the coins in their holders, especially series with designations like “full steps”, “full head”, or “FBL”, etc. And what about CAM vs. DCAM? They have to be using monkeys at PCGS for that determination.

Dealers – those who claim PCGS is better are simply talking about their inventory. There’s too much cronyism in that business for there to be any other reply to the question than “Oh, PCGS is far superior”… what crap.

"PCGS spends a fortune on marketing. . ." Really? Where? My latest copy of "The Numismatists" has no copy from PCGS. The latest Numismatic News and CoinWorld- very little advertisements from PCGS (actually NGC has a bit more).

Even if PCGS was "getting the word out" by spending a "fortune"- are you implying the collecting public are sheep?

PCGS regularly runs full page ads in main-line numismatic publications. More than that, however, there is such a dealer-crony network that does the advertising for PCGS, it’s amazing that PCGS should advertise at all. Has nothing to do with what is “best,” it’s a fricking popularity contest. And yes, most of the buyers are sheep. What proportion of buyers in this hobby are truly educated collectors?

matteproof – PCGS was the first with the slab - then came NGC. Only because one of the founding members of PCGS so disagreed with the fact that founders would remain dealers that HE LEFT AND STARTED NGC!!!

NGC will need to LEAD with an innovating idea in order to move forward and ahead Cameo? And currently, how about those variety designations that good ol’ PCGS is hot onto? LOL!

As Michael said, gold and brilliant silver look far better in the white NGC holders. I’ve sometimes wondered if this is the reason that the HSN/QVC bunch submits to NGC, for the better television presentation. As for the generality that the NGC holder is butt-ugly, it’s a matter of personal taste.

Nice topic. Sometimes it’s good to rant and rave.

Hoot

Placid

Professional Coin Grading Service.
Numismatic Guaranty Corporation.

Hmm..Pcgs does sound better.

IrishMike

I have never been treated badly by either service, because I have never submitted a coin for grading to either one. Yep a slab submission virgin. Every time I get the itch to do it, a couple of days later I change my mind. So, I can only make my observations on what I have purchased and seen in cases over the years. The conclusion is, these folks (the grading services) know a whole lot more about grading coins than I do. I've seen dozens of coins in every one's slabs that I wouldn't pay the money for at the grade it was assigned, then I see coins that I would pay way more than the sheets say it's worth. The unescapable conclusion I have come to is that the holder has no value to me. If it takes a holder to justify the price of the coin, then I am not interested in it. To stay on topic, I like the anacs holders for all coins, the PCGS for copper over NGC and neutral on silver. Smaller coins seem to have a better look in the PCGS plastic. Some day when I get as good as the graders are in 10-15 seconds I might get into the crack out game (j/k).

rays

<< <i>I spoke to some dealers about why NGC seemed to be grading so many FH SLQ's and he told me PCGS is tougher on grading SLQ's. I saw only one PCGS 1917FH SLQ and it was a terrible MS64. >>



There are some 1917 FH SLQs out there graded by PCGS that are nice (see attachment).

crito

I've got the same problem, mostly NGC slabs. The PCGS stuff is so easy to unload, all I'm left with are NGC slabs that won't sell, even at a deep discount

pmh1nic

crito

Who are you selling to slab buyers or coin buyers?