Confusing post. As you say, he has indicated they are bad and the certs have been pulled. So ya, he got them wrong.
As someone else mentioned, some of the BBCE pushback is on the sycophants that would ask if he got something wrong when even he and PSA have acknowledged the mistake.
@80sOPC said:
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
Right, but the fraudster admitted to making those packs and got a whole bunch through, with out of collation stars front and back. I get an anomaly, but this wasn’t that.
Which means, at least at that time, he didn’t have the expertise to identify a well done but fraudulent seal.
I’m not bashing him but on those cellos he got beat, bad. He missed collation red flags, bad seals and frankly should have keyed in to all of these pop 1 or low pop star cellos coming out of nowhere. Velocity red flags.
@80sOPC said:
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
PSA won't allow Steve to authenticate any cello that does not follow standard collation at this point but collation anomalies (and reversed collation for that matter) are present for many years and perfectly authentic. I just pulled a beautiful Ozzie Smith RC from a 79 cello that bore ABC collated cards throughout the pack (instead of DEF/ABC).
Thinking through this more, if PSA won’t allow him to authenticate any cellos out of collation that is a pretty big tell they don’t believe in his ability to spot a reseal. Logic being - of reseals can be reliably identified, there is no reason to not slab out of collation cellos, which are apparently common based on the comments raised each time the Jose packs come up.
It follows that there must be a decent amount of in collation bad cellos in slabs.
@bgr said:
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
@bgr said:
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
@80sOPC said:
Thinking through this more, if PSA won’t allow him to authenticate any cellos out of collation that is a pretty big tell they don’t believe in his ability to spot a reseal. Logic being - of reseals can be reliably identified, there is no reason to not slab out of collation cellos, which are apparently common based on the comments raised each time the Jose packs come up.
It follows that there must be a decent amount of in collation bad cellos in slabs.
There are also a fair number of altered cards in PSA holders. I would also say that Steve is much better at detecting fakes than he was 15 years ago, too. With unopened product, we also learn from our experiences and gain knowledge as additional information comes to light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It looks like a mess but how are the roller marks? Those secondary folds, which are the hardest to replicate, look factory tight. This may be a bad pack but I've opened good packs with a bad wrap like that before. But the roller marks will tell the story. And I'm far from an expert, just someone who's ripped a lot of wax. I would go so far as to say bad wraps like that are almost common with OPC wax.
Arthur
I agree with Arthur here. That pack is certainly not what would be described as "clean" and not a pack I would holder if I were grading for PSA but I don't believe it was tampered with, either. Just a sloppy seal which really isn't that uncommon with wax from that era.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I would also say here that few topics generate as many opinions and activity as one about vintage unopened product which is a testament to how compelling this topic continues to be among collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can anyone tell me if this box is legit? I bought it off ebay from a China seller 9 weeks ago. It hasn't shipped yet but I'm not worried, at least not yet. I'm told its a Slobby Box not Retail, and that the 1/1 Auto Cooper Flabb is still out there. Wish me luck!!!
@UFFDAH said:
Can anyone tell me if this box is legit? I bought it off ebay from a China seller 9 weeks ago. It hasn't shipped yet but I'm not worried, at least not yet. I'm told its a Slobby Box not Retail, and that the 1/1 Auto Cooper Flabb is still out there. Wish me luck!!!
@80sOPC said:
Confusing post. As you say, he has indicated they are bad and the certs have been pulled. So ya, he got them wrong.
As someone else mentioned, some of the BBCE pushback is on the sycophants that would ask if he got something wrong when even he and PSA have acknowledged the mistake.
@80sOPC said:
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
The certs have NOT been pulled. PSA population reports still show 75 Yount on top, and 78 Murray on top just to name a couple of high profile out of collation cellos.
@bgr said:
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
@bgr said:
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
@bgr said:
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
How did the rip go? Did anyone pull a Smith that came back a 9?
Unfortunately, I could not find a follow up thread to the "sold out" thread, to see if anyone opened them and/or pulled a mint Ozzie. Looks like only 1 member ripped his and struck out on getting an Ozzie. Not sure about the others in the bunch. I actually kept mine sealed and also purchased a 2nd box from one of the other members from the rip. Still have those fresh boxes today.
Adam buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball cards also collecting US & Canadian silver coins
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@80sOPC said:
Thinking through this more, if PSA won’t allow him to authenticate any cellos out of collation that is a pretty big tell they don’t believe in his ability to spot a reseal. Logic being - of reseals can be reliably identified, there is no reason to not slab out of collation cellos, which are apparently common based on the comments raised each time the Jose packs come up.
It follows that there must be a decent amount of in collation bad cellos in slabs.
The ‘73 Schmidt rookie top cello with the 1975 wrapper code is conclusive on two fronts. That at that time (2012-13 I believe) Steve was not checking wrapper codes and not able to catch Jose reseals.
I have no issue with the occasional oops. I figure 99.9% of the time Steve is providing an essential and immeasurable service to the hobby community. But it;s like the CIA -- you never hear about their successes, just their mishaps.
Steve's not perfect, no one is. But he's honest and has integrity. If he packed up shop the unopened market would turn into a giant cluster as inexperienced vendors try to establish a name in the cesspool that will be unopened.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I have no issue with the occasional oops. I figure 99.9% of the time Steve is providing an essential and immeasurable service to the hobby community. But it;s like the CIA -- you never hear about their successes, just their mishaps.
Steve's not perfect, no one is. But he's honest and has integrity. If he packed up shop the unopened market would turn into a giant cluster as inexperienced vendors try to establish a name in the cesspool that will be unopened.
All true. As others have mentioned though, a model based on the honesty/trustworthiness of one individual is not sustainable going forward. So many arrangements that would be viewed as questionable conflicts of interest in any other arena are given a pass because we know Steve is honest. When someone less honest inevitably comes in there is a lot of bad precedent.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I have no issue with the occasional oops. I figure 99.9% of the time Steve is providing an essential and immeasurable service to the hobby community. But it;s like the CIA -- you never hear about their successes, just their mishaps.
Steve's not perfect, no one is. But he's honest and has integrity. If he packed up shop the unopened market would turn into a giant cluster as nefarious vendors try to establish a name in the cesspool that will be unopened.
this discussion does lead me to think about the succession plan. as @PaulMaul noted above, steves model is not sustainable, as he is a party of one and will not be performing these services forever. yes, he has "helpers" but he is the face and it is his integrity that is holding this whole thing together.
I dont know how old Steve is, maybe late 50's? someone will have to rise to the front eventually or chaos will ensue. How long do we expect Steve to continue? 5 years? 10 years?
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
By making a point of announcing that he checks every pack himself, he is certainly not sending the message that the authentication business is a team effort.
The packs say PSA on the cases not BBCE. Steve may or may not look at every pack I have no idea but there is no way Steve can look at every single item submitted to BBCE for authentication whether it be pack or box, case, whatever. I’ve seen the inside of the place and it’s always loaded with submissions when I’ve been there.
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
That's the idea. You have to be indifferent to the cards inside the box to be a good unopened collector. Steve himself has said don't open anything before 77' as that's when the merchants started to sell left over cases to dealers and card shop guys as that's when the baseball collecting phase turned from kids hobby to investments.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
@Yankees70 said:
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
That's the idea. You have to be indifferent to the cards inside the box to be a good unopened collector. Steve himself has said don't open anything before 77' as that's when the merchants started to sell left over cases to dealers and card shop guys as that's when the baseball collecting phase turned from kids hobby to investments.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
If Steve retires or sells out there will be a tectonic shift in the unopened market. BBCE will take a major hit, both in their pockets and in the hobby's view of them. And there isn't a vendor in the market that could fill his shoes.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
If Steve retires or sells out there will be a tectonic shift in the unopened market. BBCE will take a major hit, both in their pockets and in the hobby's view of them. And there isn't a vendor in the market that could fill his shoes.
Arthur
Maybe not but it’s still just your opinion.
My bet would be no one notices.
Everyone can be replaced.
So by your logic, everyone who has a major unopened collection will take a hit. Sorry don’t buy it.
So if PSA buys out BBCE and Steve retires, the unopened market will take a hit??? Doubt it.
I would think if Steve retires anything that is BBCE FASC would go up even more in value especially if there's not a company/person who can replace him and have the same integrity and knowledge, and have the trust of unopened collectors.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
I feel like you are either not that plugged into the hobby or perhaps a novice? people who know enough to buy/collect/sell vintage unopened wax packs and submit through PSA to have them graded KNOW it is Steve Hart that is authenticating the product. It is very well known in the hobby.
as far as authenticating vintage wax/cello/rack/grocery/vending boxes, the choices are Steve Hart, or.......
nobody.
I really cannot figure out your angle here. Steve is integral to the vintage unopened hobby. He is pretty much the monolithic name in that niche of the hobby. when he goes away, there will be a "tectonic shift" as @ReggieCleveland mentioned above. it will be like a hobby vacuum and I sure hope someone trustworthy and experienced rises to the top.
There is no angle except everyone is replaceable and that’s a fact. I’m a big supporter of Steve and BBCE but I can almost guarantee you he would say the same thing.
As for “unplugged “ or a novice, before the last 18 months I averaged 7000 cards graded by PSA a year for almost 25 years. I also have over 1 million vintage cards in various grades and years from 56-80. I also send cases to BBCE for authenticity and have for a decade.
@Harnessracing said:
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
I feel like you are either not that plugged into the hobby or perhaps a novice? people who know enough to buy/collect/sell vintage unopened wax packs and submit through PSA to have them graded KNOW it is Steve Hart that is authenticating the product. It is very well known in the hobby.
as far as authenticating vintage wax/cello/rack/grocery/vending boxes, the choices are Steve Hart, or.......
nobody.
I really cannot figure out your angle here. Steve is integral to the vintage unopened hobby. He is pretty much the monolithic name in that niche of the hobby. when he goes away, there will be a "tectonic shift" as @ReggieCleveland mentioned above. it will be like a hobby vacuum and I sure hope someone trustworthy and experienced rises to the top.
In fairness, RVP is a choice. People have confidence in Kurt Christensen/RVP. Do I prefer BBCE? Yes. Am I good with RVP? Yes. I probably don't want a more obscure box wrapped by RVP, but I'd be fine with, say, 1979 Topps and more common boxes.
Edit to add, the world is waiting for Grotemart Authentication Services. You haven't experienced authentication until you've experienced GAS.
@Yankees70 said:
I would think if Steve retires anything that is BBCE FASC would go up even more in value especially if there's not a company/person who can replace him and have the same integrity and knowledge, and have the trust of unopened collectors.
If/when the time comes the concern of the transfer of power and ones related ability, will be tempered by, I presume, Steve's unwavering endorsement of his successor(s).IMHO,of course.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Also with so much funds invested in all of this unopened, those investors have no choice but to invoke their trust in a successor(s).
Much like our trust in the U.S. financial system. There we have no choice but to believe as well. IMHO.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
When Steve "goes away", all of the unopened product will still be here, just the same. There was authentication of sorts before he took the lead role, and there will certainly be more so-called experts in the field to take his place. The products in the hands of those who own them will be well protected because they're valuable and in demand. With or without wrappers and documentation, the market will continue to exist as it has for many years. We are glad to have a dependable guy who has earned our trust when it comes to such products and their worth should increase no matter where Steve decides to wear a floppy hat, flip-flops and lounge in a cabana while the arguments carry on.
Wonder if there may be Steve era and post Steve authentication type designations? One more credible than the other? Pre Steve authentication has less belief in that product.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Wonder if there may be Steve era and post Steve authentication type designations? One more credible than the other? Pre Steve authentication has less belief in that product.
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Wonder if there may be Steve era and post Steve authentication type designations? One more credible than the other? Pre Steve authentication has less belief in that product.
Like the first generation gai flips?
I suppose it really boils down to each person's belief and trust in the various authenticated product out there. One may have more credibility than another. A personal choice.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Comments
Confusing post. As you say, he has indicated they are bad and the certs have been pulled. So ya, he got them wrong.
As someone else mentioned, some of the BBCE pushback is on the sycophants that would ask if he got something wrong when even he and PSA have acknowledged the mistake.
Right, but the fraudster admitted to making those packs and got a whole bunch through, with out of collation stars front and back. I get an anomaly, but this wasn’t that.
Which means, at least at that time, he didn’t have the expertise to identify a well done but fraudulent seal.
I’m not bashing him but on those cellos he got beat, bad. He missed collation red flags, bad seals and frankly should have keyed in to all of these pop 1 or low pop star cellos coming out of nowhere. Velocity red flags.
Thinking through this more, if PSA won’t allow him to authenticate any cellos out of collation that is a pretty big tell they don’t believe in his ability to spot a reseal. Logic being - of reseals can be reliably identified, there is no reason to not slab out of collation cellos, which are apparently common based on the comments raised each time the Jose packs come up.
It follows that there must be a decent amount of in collation bad cellos in slabs.
There are four categories of vending...
1) FASC - Obviously wrapped after BBCE inspected and cracked the case
2) Fritsch - Shipped to BBCE from the Fritsch warehouse. Sat in their inventory since new. Boxes may be untouched or lightly handled with potential select removals to fill sets/want lists over the years.
3) Non-certified vending boxes - Often sold on eBay and usually already searched
4) Very early BBCE stickered non-FASC vending boxes. I believe Steve did authenticate non-FASC vending boxes early on for a short period of time.
I have about 500 1985 mis wraps that are all over the place from some that look like this to completely off center fronts
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/733218/the-quot-official-quot-1979-topps-baseball-vending-case-group-rip-sold-out/p1
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball cards
also collecting US & Canadian silver coins
There are also a fair number of altered cards in PSA holders. I would also say that Steve is much better at detecting fakes than he was 15 years ago, too. With unopened product, we also learn from our experiences and gain knowledge as additional information comes to light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree with Arthur here. That pack is certainly not what would be described as "clean" and not a pack I would holder if I were grading for PSA but I don't believe it was tampered with, either. Just a sloppy seal which really isn't that uncommon with wax from that era.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I would also say here that few topics generate as many opinions and activity as one about vintage unopened product which is a testament to how compelling this topic continues to be among collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Can anyone tell me if this box is legit? I bought it off ebay from a China seller 9 weeks ago. It hasn't shipped yet but I'm not worried, at least not yet. I'm told its a Slobby Box not Retail, and that the 1/1 Auto Cooper Flabb is still out there. Wish me luck!!!
Now it's legit
those are the new Jumbo boxes!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The certs have NOT been pulled. PSA population reports still show 75 Yount on top, and 78 Murray on top just to name a couple of high profile out of collation cellos.
How did the rip go? Did anyone pull a Smith that came back a 9?
FASC?
Good point. I forgot about those.
Unfortunately, I could not find a follow up thread to the "sold out" thread, to see if anyone opened them and/or pulled a mint Ozzie. Looks like only 1 member ripped his and struck out on getting an Ozzie. Not sure about the others in the bunch. I actually kept mine sealed and also purchased a 2nd box from one of the other members from the rip. Still have those fresh boxes today.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball cards
also collecting US & Canadian silver coins
My best buddy had 10 packs that he bought during the 79 season. He opened them recently and pulled a Fisk, Carlton, and Rose but all three were off center and not worth grading. He said 75 percent of the cards were off center and not worth grading.
79 is a very tough set to find mint centered cards.
Yes, probably the toughest set from the 70s with possible exception of 75 minis to pull centered cards out of the pack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The ‘73 Schmidt rookie top cello with the 1975 wrapper code is conclusive on two fronts. That at that time (2012-13 I believe) Steve was not checking wrapper codes and not able to catch Jose reseals.
I have no issue with the occasional oops. I figure 99.9% of the time Steve is providing an essential and immeasurable service to the hobby community. But it;s like the CIA -- you never hear about their successes, just their mishaps.
Steve's not perfect, no one is. But he's honest and has integrity. If he packed up shop the unopened market would turn into a giant cluster as inexperienced vendors try to establish a name in the cesspool that will be unopened.
All true. As others have mentioned though, a model based on the honesty/trustworthiness of one individual is not sustainable going forward. So many arrangements that would be viewed as questionable conflicts of interest in any other arena are given a pass because we know Steve is honest. When someone less honest inevitably comes in there is a lot of bad precedent.
Fixed it.
Arthur
this discussion does lead me to think about the succession plan. as @PaulMaul noted above, steves model is not sustainable, as he is a party of one and will not be performing these services forever. yes, he has "helpers" but he is the face and it is his integrity that is holding this whole thing together.
I dont know how old Steve is, maybe late 50's? someone will have to rise to the front eventually or chaos will ensue. How long do we expect Steve to continue? 5 years? 10 years?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Steve is not a party of one.
Sure, there is a team supporting him. But when it comes to people’s faith in BBCE’s integrity, it is Steve that’s based on.
It’s the company that Steve runs that the faith is on. His company is not made up of one person. He has several people who are just as qualified. If you don’t think so then my suggestion is sell.
I disagree. public perception is that it is Steve. all the faith and goodwill is Steves and what he built.
for all intents and purposes, BBCE=Steve Hart in the publics view.
I agree that there are other authenticators just as qualified as steve, but i do not believe that is public perception.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That’s just your opinion. We don’t live forever. When and if Steve retires or sells the company or however he is no longer affiliated with BBCE does that mean everything after that is not credible?
Are PSA graded cards more credible from the beginning, middle or now?
Everyone has an opinion. Follow yours but don’t expect others to agree.
By making a point of announcing that he checks every pack himself, he is certainly not sending the message that the authentication business is a team effort.
Some of you seem to forget there once was a guy named Reed Kasaoka, who helped elevate Steve to a greater level while he was part of the team.
The packs say PSA on the cases not BBCE. Steve may or may not look at every pack I have no idea but there is no way Steve can look at every single item submitted to BBCE for authentication whether it be pack or box, case, whatever. I’ve seen the inside of the place and it’s always loaded with submissions when I’ve been there.
Baseball Card Collector, Investor, Dealer (in that order) did a Youtube video where he opened a few boxes from a vending case he broke. The best card he pulled was a Carlton Fisk that graded either 8 or 9. Most cards weren't well enough centered or valuable enough to submit. His advice, sell as unopened vending boxes rather than crack and grade the cards inside.
it is not just MY opinon, it is widely agreed upon...
I have no idea how things will shake out when steve sells or retires. there will be a shift. Someone will rise to the top, the hope is that it will be someone credible.
Steve Hart is the perfect storm. He has the knowledge/experience, but most importantly, he is WIDELY respected as an honorable person. The whole unopened market is, to a large extent, based on trust. if that trust is ever broken, so will be the unopened market.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That's the idea. You have to be indifferent to the cards inside the box to be a good unopened collector. Steve himself has said don't open anything before 77' as that's when the merchants started to sell left over cases to dealers and card shop guys as that's when the baseball collecting phase turned from kids hobby to investments.
Well, he’s an astute businessman, that’s for sure.
Widely agreed upon by whom? The posters here? Cmon 98% of the submitters only what the items wrapped and that’s my opinion.
Not buying your statement. Steve is trusted by most but whether he retires or sells out to someone else no one will care
1000% correct
If Steve retires or sells out there will be a tectonic shift in the unopened market. BBCE will take a major hit, both in their pockets and in the hobby's view of them. And there isn't a vendor in the market that could fill his shoes.
Arthur
Maybe not but it’s still just your opinion.
My bet would be no one notices.
Everyone can be replaced.
So by your logic, everyone who has a major unopened collection will take a hit. Sorry don’t buy it.
So if PSA buys out BBCE and Steve retires, the unopened market will take a hit??? Doubt it.
I would think if Steve retires anything that is BBCE FASC would go up even more in value especially if there's not a company/person who can replace him and have the same integrity and knowledge, and have the trust of unopened collectors.
I feel like you are either not that plugged into the hobby or perhaps a novice? people who know enough to buy/collect/sell vintage unopened wax packs and submit through PSA to have them graded KNOW it is Steve Hart that is authenticating the product. It is very well known in the hobby.
as far as authenticating vintage wax/cello/rack/grocery/vending boxes, the choices are Steve Hart, or.......
nobody.
I really cannot figure out your angle here. Steve is integral to the vintage unopened hobby. He is pretty much the monolithic name in that niche of the hobby. when he goes away, there will be a "tectonic shift" as @ReggieCleveland mentioned above. it will be like a hobby vacuum and I sure hope someone trustworthy and experienced rises to the top.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There is no angle except everyone is replaceable and that’s a fact. I’m a big supporter of Steve and BBCE but I can almost guarantee you he would say the same thing.
As for “unplugged “ or a novice, before the last 18 months I averaged 7000 cards graded by PSA a year for almost 25 years. I also have over 1 million vintage cards in various grades and years from 56-80. I also send cases to BBCE for authenticity and have for a decade.
Cooper Flab is resembling Luka Doncic> @craig44 said:
In fairness, RVP is a choice. People have confidence in Kurt Christensen/RVP. Do I prefer BBCE? Yes. Am I good with RVP? Yes. I probably don't want a more obscure box wrapped by RVP, but I'd be fine with, say, 1979 Topps and more common boxes.
Edit to add, the world is waiting for Grotemart Authentication Services. You haven't experienced authentication until you've experienced GAS.
If/when the time comes the concern of the transfer of power and ones related ability, will be tempered by, I presume, Steve's unwavering endorsement of his successor(s).IMHO,of course.
Also with so much funds invested in all of this unopened, those investors have no choice but to invoke their trust in a successor(s).
Much like our trust in the U.S. financial system. There we have no choice but to believe as well. IMHO.
When Steve "goes away", all of the unopened product will still be here, just the same. There was authentication of sorts before he took the lead role, and there will certainly be more so-called experts in the field to take his place. The products in the hands of those who own them will be well protected because they're valuable and in demand. With or without wrappers and documentation, the market will continue to exist as it has for many years. We are glad to have a dependable guy who has earned our trust when it comes to such products and their worth should increase no matter where Steve decides to wear a floppy hat, flip-flops and lounge in a cabana while the arguments carry on.
Wonder if there may be Steve era and post Steve authentication type designations? One more credible than the other? Pre Steve authentication has less belief in that product.
Like the first generation gai flips?
I suppose it really boils down to each person's belief and trust in the various authenticated product out there. One may have more credibility than another. A personal choice.