It's also important to note that while uncommon, collation anomalies are not exactly rare with vintage unopened product and will vary year to year. Can you provide an example of a collation anomaly that you believe was made up or fabricated?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@bgr said:
I refer to Steve as a moron. I find him to be rather stupid. I’ve also said that he’s a nice person generally and I don’t think he’s nefarious in any way.
Over the years I would estimate I’ve lost about 100K to Steve’s mistakes. Worst was a 71 topps vending. Not a fasc. Was ordered. It hurts to burn thousands but it’s not the end of the world for me. Again. I’m only going to mention that Steve is just as much an expert at making mistakes as he is at authenticating unopened. So whatever guys. Butthurt. That’s a good one.
Just curious, how did you determine the vending was bad?
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
@bgr said:
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
I'm not educated enough about '71 vending to speak intelligently on the subject. I have to ask though, why did it take you $100k before you finally stopped buying? That's kind of moron-adjacent.
So you "lost" $100k to your self-described "moron" and just kept on buying? Kind of moron-esque looking at it from the outside. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.
@1982FBWaxMemories said:
Everyone makes mistakes in business, people or entities should be judged, positive or negative, by how they respond and react to them.
In effect are you doing best to make up for your mistakes or are you trying to lie about them?
agreed. none of us are perfect, and perfection cannot be the standard. authenticators should be judged on how frequently (or infrequently) they make errors and when they do, how do they react.
My issue with BBCE/Steve Hart is the skyrocketing, or tanking of value based on his assessment. There are obviously products that he authenticated that should not have been. There are also legitimate unopened products that become significantly devalued if he doesn't authenticate them (70's sequence variations that Grote alluded to for example).
I just don't like the concept of one person having that much sway. He's not going to do it forever and there are objective ways to determine likelihood of authenticity that can be used by another entity.
This isn't a knock on Steve, just the reality that there has become only one opinion that really matters. That's not a good model for assessing anything. With all the advancement in technology and shared knowledge, it's amazes me that there isn't an equal or better alternative.
@Mookie1986 said:
My issue with BBCE/Steve Hart is the skyrocketing, or tanking of value based on his assessment. There are obviously products that he authenticated that should not have been. There are also legitimate unopened products that become significantly devalued if he doesn't authenticate them (70's sequence variations that Grote alluded to for example).
I just don't like the concept of one person having that much sway. He's not going to do it forever and there are objective ways to determine likelihood of authenticity that can be used by another entity.
This isn't a knock on Steve, just the reality that there has become only one opinion that really matters. That's not a good model for assessing anything. With all the advancement in technology and shared knowledge, it's amazes me that there isn't an equal or better alternative.
this is a really good point. I have been thinking about this for awhile now. At least the part about Steve not doing this forever.
while he is an expert in the field (expert =/= perfect) he is not the ONLY expert. it is always better when there is competition. it would be nice if one or two other qualified names in the hobby would start offering authentication services as well.
I think Tom Salem already wraps boxes, or at least he did.
You can take your ball and home. But where and who do you go to after. Steve still is top dog in this niche collectable hobby. Until then, we will continue to abide his services.
@ReggieCleveland said:
So you "lost" $100k to your self-described "moron" and just kept on buying? Kind of moron-esque looking at it from the outside. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.
Arthur
My thought process is that BBCE is still the best of the worst. Because I enjoy ripping wax I need to purchase it. When there’s something want that they have I’m going to purchase it. Most of the stuff has no issues. I have complaints with how Steve authenticates and I have issues with his ordained expert status. Not sure you’re going to be able to accept any explanation. Anyways. Enjoy.
@ReggieCleveland said:
So you "lost" $100k to your self-described "moron" and just kept on buying? Kind of moron-esque looking at it from the outside. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.
Arthur
My thought process is that BBCE is still the best of the worst. Because I enjoy ripping wax I need to purchase it. When there’s something want that they have I’m going to purchase it. Most of the stuff has no issues. I have complaints with how Steve authenticates and I have issues with his ordained expert status. Not sure you’re going to be able to accept any explanation. Anyways. Enjoy.
Fair enough. I think I would've tapped out at $50k but we all have our limits.
If you pump enough coin into this biz you will find that the law of averages does indeed exist and there will be occasional bumps in the golden road, but overall you can feel comfortable knowing that you've still come out way ahead in the game if the majority of your calculated bets come to fruition. Living in fear of problematic situations will set you back and defeat your necessary trust in the overall objective. Ultimately coming out ahead. Not losing. It's a tough thing to accept. But, we do. Sometimes we just take a hit and brush it off. If dropping 100K in black hole is painful, but acceptable, there's a vast amount more worth of good that I must assume has happened too.
@bgr said:
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
I'm not sure how you can possibly get it wrong on a FASC box. Doesn't that label require that BBCE themselves open the case?
@bgr said:
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
I'm not sure how you can possibly get it wrong on a FASC box. Doesn't that label require that BBCE themselves open the case?
I don’t see it in the quoted text but if I said FASC I meant to say not FASC. Though there are two high profile incidents where BBCE FASC boxes were opened and were not legitimate.
@bgr said:
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
I'm not sure how you can possibly get it wrong on a FASC box. Doesn't that label require that BBCE themselves open the case?
I don’t see it in the quoted text but if I said FASC I meant to say not FASC. Though there are two high profile incidents where BBCE FASC boxes were opened and were not legitimate.
BBCE wrapped vending boxes are from a sealed case, noted on the label or not.
Most instances of "not legitimate" BBCE boxes... i.e. 1986 Fleer basketball and Jabbs 79 Topps... were indeed legitimate boxes, just some unknowledgable "experts" claiming such because they didn't get the cards they expected. Not much different than calling foul, when a FASC pack doesn't pass at PSA... many packs coming from FASC boxes may have anomalies or issues (popped seals, wrinkled/ripped wrappers, bad folds, etc) that PSA will not allow Steve to authenticate. Steve has no knowledge of the original source of any pack sent into PSA, and they won't let him authenticate packs that don't conform to the known factory "norms".
The Pokémon case doesn't bother me because it isn't in my realm and I'm only interested in Steve's opinion on vintage sports packs, not modern sealed cases. I think the bigger mistake there was offering a service to authenticate cases without ever seeing the contents.
There is no threshold to being an expert, it's all relative within that field of expertise... but when you're the best in the business and everyone who matters agrees, you're clearly an expert.
I think that you can hold your own definition of expert, but… whether you’re considering the objective or subjective perspectives of expertise, local consensus isn’t a highly regarded criterion. I’ll assume there’s local consensus while also knowing there’s a whole world of reasonable collectors out there who wouldn’t touch these forums.
As for my box I found it hard to believe that a hand assembled vending box made its way into a sealed case. I still ask dealers if they’ve seen or heard of another one like it.
I believe I saw the Jabs box but I remember that as water damage or moisture. I might be thinking of a 72 he opened as I type this. And he opened a 79 and got like nothing but it was a normal collation from a single sheet. Jabs is obnoxious and I believe Steve replaced that box. I wish he hadn’t. Jabs. This is one of my complaints though that Steve leaves it to the imagination what’s inside. No qualitative assessment. I’ve opened absolutely legitimate garbage many times and like that makes it more lotto than I care for.
The 86 fleer was certainly a little sketchy. I haven’t followed up on where the data there leads. There aren’t any people around who can really speak to the processes definitively and most of these murky collations have originated from empirical results and assumptions.
@bgr said:
I refer to Steve as a moron. I find him to be rather stupid. I’ve also said that he’s a nice person generally and I don’t think he’s nefarious in any way.
Over the years I would estimate I’ve lost about 100K to Steve’s mistakes. Worst was a 71 topps vending. Not a fasc. Was ordered. It hurts to burn thousands but it’s not the end of the world for me. Again. I’m only going to mention that Steve is just as much an expert at making mistakes as he is at authenticating unopened. So whatever guys. Butthurt. That’s a good one.
If you bought a Fritsch vending box thinking it was never touched, that's on you. Steve wraps them as 'Fristch Vault', not 'FASC'. It simply means the boxes were provided to BBCE directly from Fritsch. Those boxes sat in their warehouse for 50+ years. Over those years, some boxes were likely raided to fill in a gap in sets they sold. That's why I've never bought one. I've seen good and bad results from people busting Fritsch Vault vending boxes. It's a crapshoot (beyond the typical crapshoot of FASC vending) you must be willing to take if you buy one.
@bgr said:
I refer to Steve as a moron. I find him to be rather stupid. I’ve also said that he’s a nice person generally and I don’t think he’s nefarious in any way.
Over the years I would estimate I’ve lost about 100K to Steve’s mistakes. Worst was a 71 topps vending. Not a fasc. Was ordered. It hurts to burn thousands but it’s not the end of the world for me. Again. I’m only going to mention that Steve is just as much an expert at making mistakes as he is at authenticating unopened. So whatever guys. Butthurt. That’s a good one.
If you bought a Fritsch vending box thinking it was never touched, that's on you. Steve wraps them as 'Fristch Vault', not 'FASC'. It simply means the boxes were provided to BBCE directly from Fritsch. Those boxes sat in their warehouse for 50+ years. Over those years, some boxes were likely raided to fill in a gap in sets they sold. That's why I've never bought one. I've seen good and bad results from people busting Fritsch Vault vending boxes. It's a crapshoot (beyond the typical crapshoot of FASC vending) you must be willing to take if you buy one.
To answer the OP= stains always affect final values despite claims otherwise. It will be used by almost every single buyer as an excuse to offer less.
Regarding BBCE I've never relied on one experts advice in my life and never will. Have always tried tapping knowledge from multiple sources to confirm my own thoughts ,or focus them further on any suspicions. For every "expert" there's guys like Roger Hooper and Son who keep learning what they look for and perfecting fooling " knowledgable" people.
While I have some boxes & packs unopened, it's never been a big focus.
So my take is that when I saw that video of the guy and his Pokemon case that BBCE authenticated and it was full of Barbie cards (whatever), his credibility took a major blow and it's fair to question his services as a result.
However, it's become irrelevant. His business is booming so much he stopped new orders - that doesn't happen too often in any industry.
To me, just another example of monopolstic behavior in the two most important aspects: card making (Fanatics, Panini) and card grading (CU, CGC). Throw in big players in card selling/auctions with the card makers & graders wanting in on being fully integrated in selling. It's simply harder to find your niche in keeping it a hobby and not big business. Oh, let's not forget about the card making and distribution is tilted & closely resembles buying scratch-off tickets at the jiffy mart.
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
hmmm...Huh ...who filled a pokemon case with Barbie cards ... was there a video ...hmmm could the video have been faked... hmmm were the reactions on the video realistic... just a whole bunch of hmmms it seems
Here is my take:
Steve has been nothing but awesome to me with his customer service and any questions that I have asked in the past. He has went above and beyond for me over the years and I'm not a big fish by any means.
However:
1) He is not the second coming of chr*st.
2) He is not a moron.
3) He is human and has made errors.
4) He had no business authenticating that Pokemon case.
5) He is a tremendous asset to the collecting community.
6) He has the most knowledge when it comes to unopened product of anyone that I have encountered.
How many of you cardboard experts have ever opened a box of 80T wax which had a mix of packs with different numbers of cards per pack with bottom packs having 8 - 10 cards and top packs having 15? I’m sure this is completely normal.
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
@bgr said:
How many of you cardboard experts have ever opened a box of 80T wax which had a mix of packs with different numbers of cards per pack with bottom packs having 8 - 10 cards and top packs having 15? I’m sure this is completely normal.
Not 1980 but I've ripped an '85 box like that. The collation was extremely narrow, as well. I pulled 5 Clemens and 4 Pucketts. A truly bizarre box.
@bgr said:
How many of you cardboard experts have ever opened a box of 80T wax which had a mix of packs with different numbers of cards per pack with bottom packs having 8 - 10 cards and top packs having 15? I’m sure this is completely normal.
Not 1980 but I've ripped an '85 box like that. The collation was extremely narrow, as well. I pulled 5 Clemens and 4 Pucketts. A truly bizarre box.
Arthur
This is referred to as a jumbo/thin and was common in 80-85 where the machine would jam 22 cards into one pack and 8 into the next, etc. I’ve had many of those. While this resembles that it was different in that the top packs were normal and the bottom were not. It can be an oddish mix but I have yet to hear of one which had cards left out of the box. I questioned Steve on this box as I have seen the jumbo-thins out of sealed cases but never anything like this and he just blew it off. No way it could be faked. I questioned the process as to how he knows and he wouldn’t share. Just that he’s seen “stuff”. I’m unconvinced. I didn’t ask for a refund but he didn’t offer anything either. So if anyone has seen these and knows the providence I would be interested.
doesn't matter how masterful you are, the miscreants will always be one step ahead in this hobby. always. and i think that's what bothers some -- the puck has blown through the wickets many times before, and it has probably happened many more times than hobbyists realize. so let's tap the brakes with the reach-arounds.
I had one box of 82T which has loose cards in the box. We’ve all heard of miswraps and packs sans gum but this was the only one I found with loose cards which had no wrapper. So I emailed Steve. He said there are lots of oddities in the early 80s. When I questioned him on how sure he was that this box was legit he asked me what I meant and added that he authenticated it so he was sure. I followed up and asked how sure and he responded almost immediately via email (his sprint mail days) that when he’s sure he’s sure and when he’s not it’s not authentic. This is one of the reasons I’ve come to characterize him as I do. It’s a wild thought process to be 100% sure on this stuff and I think he believes it. Hence my assessment. I didn’t ask for a refund and he didn’t offer anything. Anyone seen these before?
@bgr said:
I had one box of 82T which has loose cards in the box. We’ve all heard of miswraps and packs sans gum but this was the only one I found with loose cards which had no wrapper. So I emailed Steve. He said there are lots of oddities in the early 80s. When I questioned him on how sure he was that this box was legit he asked me what I meant and added that he authenticated it so he was sure. I followed up and asked how sure and he responded almost immediately via email (his sprint mail days) that when he’s sure he’s sure and when he’s not it’s not authentic. This is one of the reasons I’ve come to characterize him as I do. It’s a wild thought process to be 100% sure on this stuff and I think he believes it. Hence my assessment. I didn’t ask for a refund and he didn’t offer anything. Anyone seen these before?
Life and wax ain't nuttin but a crapshoot...believe it or you will be here till the end of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please continue to enjoy your time nit picking on things that you will never never ever know...hope you will be capishing soon! Mush on...
What is capishing? It sounds like you’re agreeing that Steve is over his own head at times and people should be aware that what they purchase from BBCE may not be as guaranteed as they expect. This is growth and I’m proud of you dude!
I once opened a BBCE box of 1984 Topps baseball. Every pack contained a mixture of Here's Bo, Welcome Back Kotter, Magnum PI, and Perlorian Cats. I was pretty disappointed. When I asked Steve about it, he said the box was good and that I should feel fortunate I pulled a Higgins rookie card.
Sadly, I didn't take any picutres or have proof of my opening the box and pulling a card #2 Higgins in between a Bo Derek and a Painter Cat. But, people need to be aware that this really happened, my word is good, and Steve just doesn't know what he's doing.
Couldn’t I just doctor the pictures and emails? I said that you might get trash when you purchase a BBCE “guarantee” and that Steve is a moron and you’re making it seem like I think he has zero experience or credibility. You know you’re talking to a sharp cat when they can only think in binary extremes.
I’m fine with my opinion and my word being worth nothing to you guys. Buy with confidence or don’t. I’m not the only one who’s has multiple issues and this forum is just one collection of collectors.
@80sOPC said:
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
@80sOPC said:
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
PSA won't allow Steve to authenticate any cello that does not follow standard collation at this point but collation anomalies (and reversed collation for that matter) are present for many years and perfectly authentic. I just pulled a beautiful Ozzie Smith RC from a 79 cello that bore ABC collated cards throughout the pack (instead of DEF/ABC).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It looks like a mess but how are the roller marks? Those secondary folds, which are the hardest to replicate, look factory tight. This may be a bad pack but I've opened good packs with a bad wrap like that before. But the roller marks will tell the story. And I'm far from an expert, just someone who's ripped a lot of wax. I would go so far as to say bad wraps like that are almost common with OPC wax.
Comments
It's also important to note that while uncommon, collation anomalies are not exactly rare with vintage unopened product and will vary year to year. Can you provide an example of a collation anomaly that you believe was made up or fabricated?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
An expert is anyone from " out of town". I'm an expert on unopened as long as you don't open the box .
Just curious, how did you determine the vending was bad?
Arthur
Everyone makes mistakes in business, people or entities should be judged, positive or negative, by how they respond and react to them.
In effect are you doing best to make up for your mistakes or are you trying to lie about them?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
As everyone knows vending boxes, when not searched, contain an oscillating pattern of size which appears as light to dark. This box was random and the cards were an ordered mix of multiple series. While I do believe that it’s common to find cards in 71 vending with some series overlap (4th and 5th) what I had is a yet to be duplicated unicorn with a mix of series 2 and 3. One of a kind. This hasn’t been my only “never seen before”. As many/ most of you don’t value my opinion you can safely disregard this. This isn’t for you.
I'm not educated enough about '71 vending to speak intelligently on the subject. I have to ask though, why did it take you $100k before you finally stopped buying? That's kind of moron-adjacent.
Arthur
I did not stop buying from BBCE. I think we live in different brackets.
So you "lost" $100k to your self-described "moron" and just kept on buying? Kind of moron-esque looking at it from the outside. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.
Arthur
agreed. none of us are perfect, and perfection cannot be the standard. authenticators should be judged on how frequently (or infrequently) they make errors and when they do, how do they react.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
My issue with BBCE/Steve Hart is the skyrocketing, or tanking of value based on his assessment. There are obviously products that he authenticated that should not have been. There are also legitimate unopened products that become significantly devalued if he doesn't authenticate them (70's sequence variations that Grote alluded to for example).
I just don't like the concept of one person having that much sway. He's not going to do it forever and there are objective ways to determine likelihood of authenticity that can be used by another entity.
This isn't a knock on Steve, just the reality that there has become only one opinion that really matters. That's not a good model for assessing anything. With all the advancement in technology and shared knowledge, it's amazes me that there isn't an equal or better alternative.
this is a really good point. I have been thinking about this for awhile now. At least the part about Steve not doing this forever.
while he is an expert in the field (expert =/= perfect) he is not the ONLY expert. it is always better when there is competition. it would be nice if one or two other qualified names in the hobby would start offering authentication services as well.
I think Tom Salem already wraps boxes, or at least he did.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
.
I didn't want to add another post to this thread, but Picard ordered me to share his thoughts.
You can take your ball and home. But where and who do you go to after. Steve still is top dog in this niche collectable hobby. Until then, we will continue to abide his services.
My thought process is that BBCE is still the best of the worst. Because I enjoy ripping wax I need to purchase it. When there’s something want that they have I’m going to purchase it. Most of the stuff has no issues. I have complaints with how Steve authenticates and I have issues with his ordained expert status. Not sure you’re going to be able to accept any explanation. Anyways. Enjoy.
Fair enough. I think I would've tapped out at $50k but we all have our limits.
Qrthur
If you pump enough coin into this biz you will find that the law of averages does indeed exist and there will be occasional bumps in the golden road, but overall you can feel comfortable knowing that you've still come out way ahead in the game if the majority of your calculated bets come to fruition. Living in fear of problematic situations will set you back and defeat your necessary trust in the overall objective. Ultimately coming out ahead. Not losing. It's a tough thing to accept. But, we do. Sometimes we just take a hit and brush it off. If dropping 100K in black hole is painful, but acceptable, there's a vast amount more worth of good that I must assume has happened too.
I'm not sure how you can possibly get it wrong on a FASC box. Doesn't that label require that BBCE themselves open the case?
I don’t see it in the quoted text but if I said FASC I meant to say not FASC. Though there are two high profile incidents where BBCE FASC boxes were opened and were not legitimate.
BBCE wrapped vending boxes are from a sealed case, noted on the label or not.
Most instances of "not legitimate" BBCE boxes... i.e. 1986 Fleer basketball and Jabbs 79 Topps... were indeed legitimate boxes, just some unknowledgable "experts" claiming such because they didn't get the cards they expected. Not much different than calling foul, when a FASC pack doesn't pass at PSA... many packs coming from FASC boxes may have anomalies or issues (popped seals, wrinkled/ripped wrappers, bad folds, etc) that PSA will not allow Steve to authenticate. Steve has no knowledge of the original source of any pack sent into PSA, and they won't let him authenticate packs that don't conform to the known factory "norms".
The Pokémon case doesn't bother me because it isn't in my realm and I'm only interested in Steve's opinion on vintage sports packs, not modern sealed cases. I think the bigger mistake there was offering a service to authenticate cases without ever seeing the contents.
There is no threshold to being an expert, it's all relative within that field of expertise... but when you're the best in the business and everyone who matters agrees, you're clearly an expert.
I think that you can hold your own definition of expert, but… whether you’re considering the objective or subjective perspectives of expertise, local consensus isn’t a highly regarded criterion. I’ll assume there’s local consensus while also knowing there’s a whole world of reasonable collectors out there who wouldn’t touch these forums.
As for my box I found it hard to believe that a hand assembled vending box made its way into a sealed case. I still ask dealers if they’ve seen or heard of another one like it.
I believe I saw the Jabs box but I remember that as water damage or moisture. I might be thinking of a 72 he opened as I type this. And he opened a 79 and got like nothing but it was a normal collation from a single sheet. Jabs is obnoxious and I believe Steve replaced that box. I wish he hadn’t. Jabs. This is one of my complaints though that Steve leaves it to the imagination what’s inside. No qualitative assessment. I’ve opened absolutely legitimate garbage many times and like that makes it more lotto than I care for.
The 86 fleer was certainly a little sketchy. I haven’t followed up on where the data there leads. There aren’t any people around who can really speak to the processes definitively and most of these murky collations have originated from empirical results and assumptions.
If you bought a Fritsch vending box thinking it was never touched, that's on you. Steve wraps them as 'Fristch Vault', not 'FASC'. It simply means the boxes were provided to BBCE directly from Fritsch. Those boxes sat in their warehouse for 50+ years. Over those years, some boxes were likely raided to fill in a gap in sets they sold. That's why I've never bought one. I've seen good and bad results from people busting Fritsch Vault vending boxes. It's a crapshoot (beyond the typical crapshoot of FASC vending) you must be willing to take if you buy one.
Agreed
To answer the OP= stains always affect final values despite claims otherwise. It will be used by almost every single buyer as an excuse to offer less.
Regarding BBCE I've never relied on one experts advice in my life and never will. Have always tried tapping knowledge from multiple sources to confirm my own thoughts ,or focus them further on any suspicions. For every "expert" there's guys like Roger Hooper and Son who keep learning what they look for and perfecting fooling " knowledgable" people.
I agree on the Fritsch vending boxes. I would not trust those to be untouched.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
While I have some boxes & packs unopened, it's never been a big focus.
So my take is that when I saw that video of the guy and his Pokemon case that BBCE authenticated and it was full of Barbie cards (whatever), his credibility took a major blow and it's fair to question his services as a result.
However, it's become irrelevant. His business is booming so much he stopped new orders - that doesn't happen too often in any industry.
To me, just another example of monopolstic behavior in the two most important aspects: card making (Fanatics, Panini) and card grading (CU, CGC). Throw in big players in card selling/auctions with the card makers & graders wanting in on being fully integrated in selling. It's simply harder to find your niche in keeping it a hobby and not big business. Oh, let's not forget about the card making and distribution is tilted & closely resembles buying scratch-off tickets at the jiffy mart.
Erik
Is the idea here that vending boxes are either FASC or from Fritsch? I’m not understanding the assertion. When I reported the issue to Steve I sent a picture of the label and the responses never indicated that he felt the label may have been faked.
hmmm...Huh ...who filled a pokemon case with Barbie cards ... was there a video ...hmmm could the video have been faked... hmmm were the reactions on the video realistic... just a whole bunch of hmmms it seems
You’re an odd duck bruh.
🤣
Here is my take:
Steve has been nothing but awesome to me with his customer service and any questions that I have asked in the past. He has went above and beyond for me over the years and I'm not a big fish by any means.
However:
1) He is not the second coming of chr*st.
2) He is not a moron.
3) He is human and has made errors.
4) He had no business authenticating that Pokemon case.
5) He is a tremendous asset to the collecting community.
6) He has the most knowledge when it comes to unopened product of anyone that I have encountered.
Ok now start your own %$# unopened grading company so I can rip you to shreds... CAPISH?
Just pretend I did and give me your best. I got a long flight and look forward to some good ones.
How many of you cardboard experts have ever opened a box of 80T wax which had a mix of packs with different numbers of cards per pack with bottom packs having 8 - 10 cards and top packs having 15? I’m sure this is completely normal.
I could never understand how he got the star on top cellos wrong, the Jose packs. GI Joe was bad but I believe collation of cello’s was fairly well understood by experts when he authenticated all those packs.
I do wonder how many bad boxes are wrapped. The beauty of his service is most of the high end stuff stays sealed.
Not 1980 but I've ripped an '85 box like that. The collation was extremely narrow, as well. I pulled 5 Clemens and 4 Pucketts. A truly bizarre box.
Arthur
This is referred to as a jumbo/thin and was common in 80-85 where the machine would jam 22 cards into one pack and 8 into the next, etc. I’ve had many of those. While this resembles that it was different in that the top packs were normal and the bottom were not. It can be an oddish mix but I have yet to hear of one which had cards left out of the box. I questioned Steve on this box as I have seen the jumbo-thins out of sealed cases but never anything like this and he just blew it off. No way it could be faked. I questioned the process as to how he knows and he wouldn’t share. Just that he’s seen “stuff”. I’m unconvinced. I didn’t ask for a refund but he didn’t offer anything either. So if anyone has seen these and knows the providence I would be interested.
doesn't matter how masterful you are, the miscreants will always be one step ahead in this hobby. always. and i think that's what bothers some -- the puck has blown through the wickets many times before, and it has probably happened many more times than hobbyists realize. so let's tap the brakes with the reach-arounds.
I had one box of 82T which has loose cards in the box. We’ve all heard of miswraps and packs sans gum but this was the only one I found with loose cards which had no wrapper. So I emailed Steve. He said there are lots of oddities in the early 80s. When I questioned him on how sure he was that this box was legit he asked me what I meant and added that he authenticated it so he was sure. I followed up and asked how sure and he responded almost immediately via email (his sprint mail days) that when he’s sure he’s sure and when he’s not it’s not authentic. This is one of the reasons I’ve come to characterize him as I do. It’s a wild thought process to be 100% sure on this stuff and I think he believes it. Hence my assessment. I didn’t ask for a refund and he didn’t offer anything. Anyone seen these before?
Life and wax ain't nuttin but a crapshoot...believe it or you will be here till the end of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please continue to enjoy your time nit picking on things that you will never never ever know...hope you will be capishing soon! Mush on...
What is capishing? It sounds like you’re agreeing that Steve is over his own head at times and people should be aware that what they purchase from BBCE may not be as guaranteed as they expect. This is growth and I’m proud of you dude!
Okay, my turn to share.
I once opened a BBCE box of 1984 Topps baseball. Every pack contained a mixture of Here's Bo, Welcome Back Kotter, Magnum PI, and Perlorian Cats. I was pretty disappointed. When I asked Steve about it, he said the box was good and that I should feel fortunate I pulled a Higgins rookie card.
Sadly, I didn't take any picutres or have proof of my opening the box and pulling a card #2 Higgins in between a Bo Derek and a Painter Cat. But, people need to be aware that this really happened, my word is good, and Steve just doesn't know what he's doing.
Couldn’t I just doctor the pictures and emails? I said that you might get trash when you purchase a BBCE “guarantee” and that Steve is a moron and you’re making it seem like I think he has zero experience or credibility. You know you’re talking to a sharp cat when they can only think in binary extremes.
I’m fine with my opinion and my word being worth nothing to you guys. Buy with confidence or don’t. I’m not the only one who’s has multiple issues and this forum is just one collection of collectors.
All this fasc chat and no pictures?!
Did he get it wrong though? On one hand, they did pass Steve's unopened inspection, are still in the PSA pop reports, and many collectors here have shared that the collation is not gospel.
On the other hand, those packs are no longer authenticated, and Steve has reversed course and now says they are outright "bad".
Good or not? Experts weigh in.
It looks like capoop AND capish.
.
It's too bad there isn't a sharp cat in the Perlorian set. That would have made my box way better.
TRUST NO ONE
PSA won't allow Steve to authenticate any cello that does not follow standard collation at this point but collation anomalies (and reversed collation for that matter) are present for many years and perfectly authentic. I just pulled a beautiful Ozzie Smith RC from a 79 cello that bore ABC collated cards throughout the pack (instead of DEF/ABC).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It looks like a mess but how are the roller marks? Those secondary folds, which are the hardest to replicate, look factory tight. This may be a bad pack but I've opened good packs with a bad wrap like that before. But the roller marks will tell the story. And I'm far from an expert, just someone who's ripped a lot of wax. I would go so far as to say bad wraps like that are almost common with OPC wax.
Arthur