@VKurtB said:
“ My time is valuable. Spending a full day (roundtrip) to spend another 2-3 days at a coin show is not worth it for me.”
And I spent 24 hours on the road one weekend to attend a coin auction live in York, PA. Different priorities.
EXACTLY!!!! And that's the crux of the issue with OKC. If the idea was to weed out all but the most committed, they will succeed. If the idea was to make a show that is EASILY accessible to the greatest number of potential attendees, it will be a huge fail.
They probably already know this. The thing is, as you noted in another post, it's a political organization with multiple constituencies. Not a for-profit show promoter.
So, some group likely had to be appeased with OKC. Some will be happy. Others will suck it up and take one for the team. But many others will just stay home. It is what it is.
No reason to give anyone a hard time for not being willing to put in the hard work to attend a coin show. Not when there are multiple better options in a given year, in addition to other demands on people's time.
With respect to GACC and IMEX, you are correct that they think there is space for a new national for-profit show. TBD on whether or not they are correct. All we know so far is that there was no huge pent up demand for new shows in the late Summer / early Fall in Tampa or Nashville.
Which immediately caused both of them to cancel their next planned shows while they also reassessed.
Is the 2025 Nashville coin show cancelled?
No. After the 2023 show, not before, they announced that it was a bi-annual show and that there would be no show in 2024.
I'm pretty sure there would have been a show in 2024 if 2023 wasn't a disappointment. After all, who plans bi-annual coin shows? As if there is robust demand, but once a year is just too much for the market to hande. They are not Congressional elections.
So, as I suggested, they either canceled, postponed, or just never staged 2024 while they reassessed and regrouped after 2023. Let's hope they were able to identify what was broken and were able to fix it, and that the problem was not just insufficient demand for a show in Nashville.
If a Nashville show CAN BE DONE, I submit that Col. Ellsworth and Mr. Adkins are the ones with the “chops” to get it done. It WILL require a rethink of what is critically important to a coin show. It MAY NOT BE having Steve Forbes on hand to parrot the promoters’ political/economic beliefs. It MAY NOT BE having ridiculous prizes for raffle tickets. It MAY NOT BE letting the venue jerk you around regarding prepping the bourse floor. It MAY BE having more speakers. Probably not, but it MAY BE bringing in ANA-style Exhibits as an adjunct to the show. It MAY BE moving the show out of downtown toward the suburbs on the northeast side of town, near where the “new Opry” is, and the airport too. Downtown Nashville has THE HIGHEST PARKING PRICES of anywhere I have ever been, and that includes midtown Manhattan. A Predators hockey game or a marathon foot race is not enough of a draw to make $90 a day to park reasonable.
Anybody want a 1st Annual IMEX coffee mug? It’s a rare collector’s piece.
One thing I have learned in many years of helping with show management - you can’t please everyone. What some stakeholders have to have will “urine” off other stakeholders. Who are you trying to please? Dealers or collectors? Want proof? Consider the ANA WFoM in Okie City. Dealers seem to hate it, without proven reason. Centrally located collectors are going to love it. ANA is NOT a coin dealers’ trade association. It’s an educational organization.
Probably. As I said, if it's fixable, I'm sure they will fix it.
But the problem might just be, in spite of what the promoters would like to see, that there is insufficient organic demand to support a for-profit show in Nashville. Or anywhere else in TN.
With or without Mr. Forbes, and with or without a disdain for the general public, as was evident in the execution of the last show. Time will tell, but there does seem to presently be as many shows as the market will support. Without a GACC or IMEX.
I SUSPECT that your assessment that the IMEX and the GACC shows are a stretch for the market’s needs is correct. Is GACC the new show last autumn on the Florida Gulf Coast? If that is it, think for just a moment who was behind those shows, and what they have in common. The IMEX 2 were consecutive past Presidents of the ANA, and GACC was the brainchild of a past ANA Executive Director, of modest duration. I have a theory about that. Having had a key role in prepping for ANA shows, and not having each and every thought you had listened to by the rest of paid staff at ANA, you can get “an itch that needs to be scratched”. You want to try things YOUR WAY and prove to those other people that you really DID know best. Seldom do new people to the process actually know best. The ANA has a considerable professional staff that carries off the details of a show/convention. (The summer one is a full blown convention, not a “coin show” at all.) Some past leaders are satisfied getting a major ANA convention in their neck of the woods. Think Anaheim 2016 and Walt Ostromecki. For a west coast show, it wasn’t too bad. The reported demise of the Long Beach show may lead to a return to greater LA for the ANA WFoM. “MAY”. 2028? Olympic City? Just after the Games? Hmm.
I was one of Col. Ellsworth’s and Gary Adkins’ six “minions” who met every morning at 0630 hours at IMEX. I was the only guy who understood the credit/debit card system for registration. Brett Irick was another. And there was a “security guy” too. (He was armed to the teeth.) It was NOT a democracy. It was the Colonel’s baby, through and through. My job was to make sure everything was as the Colonel wanted it. He comped me my room and paid me (too) well, also. I never set foot on the bourse floor for more than 3 minutes. Steve Forbes autographed a book for me. Me. A Keynesian truly and well formally educated, with a Steve Forbes autographed book. Oh, the irony. I was “out front” and in the office. I have extensive experience with ANA shows as a past ANA National Volunteer who became too infirm physically to handle my previous duties. The hours were killers. Up to 14 hours per day. I just can’t handle that level anymore.
I am now specializing in ad hoc emergency local volunteer tasks and competitive exhibits judging. Oh, and writing checks TO the ANA. I am now “a donor”, I guess.
Any new show has the traditional problem of finding an acceptable venue (no sales tax issues) that is willing to have a coin show, where - unlike say Doctors - coin dealers don't rent lots of hotel rooms and purchase expensive banquet dinners.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Phoenix and Dallas both have ample flights from the West and would be excellent compromise show locations.
Phoenix is basically a California hub these days anyway, as California is too congested for more flights.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but hopefully someone will recognize the need for geographically diversified national shows in transportation and sales tax friendly cities.
I have to get over the last Phoenix show first. The February one between the two Colorado Springs ones. Phoenix was my worst experience of a coin show in my life. I nearly lost my life there. The ANA came away from Phoenix with a new addition to their “never again city” list. Dallas has had two very successful winter/spring ANA shows. On one occasion, I shot (photographically) a Kennedy half in Dealey Plaza, and shot it again from the grassy knoll. What? Too soon?
@VKurtB said:
I have to get over the last Phoenix show first. The February one between the two Colorado Springs ones. Phoenix was my worst experience of a coin show in my life. I nearly lost my life there. The ANA came away from Phoenix with a new addition to their “never again city” list.
@VKurtB said:
I have to get over the last Phoenix show first. The February one between the two Colorado Springs ones. Phoenix was my worst experience of a coin show in my life. I nearly lost my life there. The ANA came away from Phoenix with a new addition to their “never again city” list.
Wow. Crime?
Yuppirs! I still haven’t recovered fully from my injuries. They just became part of the chronic background health issues. March 4, 2023. Not a good day.
The PCGS show schedule was updated and there is a PCGS members only show in Irvine CA. in late October. About where Fall Long Beach was scheduled for this year. Wonder what is in store for 2026.
Picked up Dalton, Nashville (IMEX) and Rosemont (GACC) for submissions only.
The current PCGS show schedule has only 2 PCGS members only shows. There is a hole for December and the last few/several years there has been one at that time. So a maybe for then. PCGS has, similar to last year, picked up more local/regional shows to set up and to do submissions only - PAN, TNA, Dalton, IMEX, GACC. Sounds easier to rent a table and take submissions at an established show. 2026 is going to be...?
A PCGS members show in Irvine with onsite grading sounds like an excellent idea. The Marriot is a nice hotel within walking distance to the Spectrum, which is a lovely outdoor mall with nice shops and restaurants. The hotel is very close to the Orange County Airport, PCGS, GC, and SB. Irvine is located almost equidistant between LA and San Diego and is close to Laguna Beach and Newport Beach.
" Consider the ANA WFoM in Okie City. Dealers seem to hate it, without proven reason. Centrally located collectors are going to love it. ANA is NOT a coin dealers’ trade association. It’s an educational organization."
RIGHT ON!
The battle between the dealers wants and shows for the collector. continues.
ANA. Maybe~~ keep moving the WFOM show to a smaller venue every other year from Chicago.
Don't forget California 1/3 of ANA members are there. last CA show was in 2016!!
10 years ago. not much respect for such a large portion of your membership.
@krueger said:
" Consider the ANA WFoM in Okie City. Dealers seem to hate it, without proven reason. Centrally located collectors are going to love it. ANA is NOT a coin dealers’ trade association. It’s an educational organization."
RIGHT ON!
The battle between the dealers wants and shows for the collector. continues.
ANA. Maybe~~ keep moving the WFOM show to a smaller venue every other year from Chicago.
Don't forget California 1/3 of ANA members are there. last CA show was in 2016!!
10 years ago. not much respect for such a large portion of your membership.
For years, the ANA has been VERY reluctant to step on Long Beach’s toes, except when a real push insisted. Anaheim/2016/Ostromecki. Same with Orlando and FUN, and Baltimore and Whitman. If Long Beach really is finished, I think you’ll see the greater LA area in the rotation. In addition to other ANA needs, one HUUUUGE one is a deep supply of volunteers from coin clubs in the area. Want an ANA show? Grab up scads of volunteers. No ANA show happens without them. This is why Rosemont and Pittsburgh keep popping up. The Chicago Coin Club and PAN both DRIP WITH VOLUNTEERS.
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
@Cougar1978 said:
Setting up there (Long Beach) coupled with travel cost is very expensive. However with the rich collectors in that >area there is ample opportunity for good retail but the competition can be brutal. Sharing a table with a friend one >can put a dent in expenses.
I'm surprised that Texas doesn't have a big coin show.
2nd largest state...growing middle-class population....no longer boom-bust on the price of oil....12 hours from Long Beach to El Paso, 16 hours for Midland if you want something in West Texas within 1-days drive for Southern California. Obviously, East Texas adds 6 hours to your trip.
Some decent collectors from what I have been told live in the state.
When COVID hit, the theory was that the day of in-person shows was over and convention centers would be offering bargain basement pricing. Exactly the opposite happened. Unprecedentedly high prices, INCREDIBLY high, with ridiculous minimum room numbers purchases became the norm. Interestingly, prices in Europe DID moderate. My eight night trip to Berlin, with a 7-day mass transit U-Bahn and S-bahn pass, and a three day World Money Fair pass, and most of my meals INCLUDED at my hotel, cost me less than a three night stay at Atlanta starting tomorrow night. The American hospitality business is out of its stinking mind. With the savings, I bought a €103 ticket to the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.
I don’t see PE ownership of either firm a positive development for the hobby, but my opinion on that has long been clear.
@Cougar1978 said:
Setting up there (Long Beach) coupled with travel cost is very expensive. However with the rich collectors in that >area there is ample opportunity for good retail but the competition can be brutal. Sharing a table with a friend one >can put a dent in expenses.
I'm surprised that Texas doesn't have a big coin show.
2nd largest state...growing middle-class population....no longer boom-bust on the price of oil....12 hours from Long Beach to El Paso, 16 hours for Midland if you want something in West Texas within 1-days drive for Southern California. Obviously, East Texas adds 6 hours to your trip.
Some decent collectors from what I have been told live in the state.
In terms of show planning, Oklahoma City is the same market as Texas. In a way, Texas has the big ANA convention this year. I doubt Texans will use an airport. Oklahoma and Texas clubs apparently have the volunteers to carry this off. In 2008 and 2012, the Philadelphia ANA conventions were held NOT with Philly volunteers, but primarily with those from Lancaster, PA and Wilmington, DE. Both were an easy Amtrak ride away. Philly HAD NO VOLUNTEERS to speak of in their clubs. Siting an ANA show is less about collectors or dealers or airports, and whole bunches more about having the volunteers to staff the thing, whether local or in the exurbs. I’m betting the Albuquerque Coin Club guys drive to OKC this year, too. They sure do drive, in numbers, to ANA Summer Seminar every year. I’m driving from Huntsville, AL.
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
I genuinely did not know that moderns were THAT essential to making a TPGS firm work. I suppose I should have guessed so. It will actually start bugging me if I think too much about it. What amazes me is how FUN keeps plugging along running two successful shows a year without an obvious alternate revenue stream. No publishing house, no grading firm, nada. Is there a hefty nest egg somewhere or something?
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
I genuinely did not know that moderns were THAT essential to making a TPGS firm work. I suppose I should have guessed so. It will actually start bugging me if I think too much about it.
Yeah. Just think about the volumes from the mass marketers, and the constant supply of new issues. As compared to limited crackouts and crossovers from the classic market.
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
As evidence, CAC assiduously avoided moderns in the stickering business, but didn't dare be so picky when launching a full blown grading business.
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
I genuinely did not know that moderns were THAT essential to making a TPGS firm work. I suppose I should have guessed so. It will actually start bugging me if I think too much about it.
Yeah. Just think about the volumes from the mass marketers, and the constant supply of new issues. As compared to limited crackouts and crossovers from the classic market.
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
As evidence, CAC assiduously avoided moderns in the stickering business, but didn't dare be so picky when launching a full blown grading business.
And here I sit keeping the few modern issues I buy, from several countries, in their original government packaging. I feel like I’m personally endangering the hobby or something. It also explains why all 3 major firms all of a sudden at some point stopped being critical of slabbing moderns.
@NJCoin said:
Either way, neither IMEX nor GACC have an ancillary business that is supported by a show, as CU has with grading. >Very likely, CU ran the show at a loss, for years, to support the grading business. And now the new private equity >guys are more focused strictly on the bottom line, so don't see the need for a money losing show to support a >robust and profitable grading business.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
I genuinely did not know that moderns were THAT essential to making a TPGS firm work. I suppose I should have guessed so. It will actually start bugging me if I think too much about it.
Yeah. Just think about the volumes from the mass marketers, and the constant supply of new issues. As compared to limited crackouts and crossovers from the classic market.
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
As evidence, CAC assiduously avoided moderns in the stickering business, but didn't dare be so picky when launching a full blown grading business.
And here I sit keeping the few modern issues I buy, from several countries, in their original government packaging. I feel like I’m personally endangering the hobby or something.
Nope. Just denying yourself the pleasure of chasing a label rather than enjoying a coin.
When the TV and web guys go back to marketing product in OGP rather than slabs in an infinite variety of special labels, THAT will endanger, not the hobby, but the TPG business model.
But it's not going to happen. Not only because the TPGs live off it, but because the mass marketers created the market, and it now allows them to charge premium prices for otherwise generic product.
Because a CACG PCGS NGC First Day Advance Release First Strike Yada Yada Yada MS70 bullion coin is MUCH more rare and valuable than a pristine ungraded example contained in an original Mint roll.
Well… services CAN add something analogous to “value”. I had to internalize that. But rarity? Not ever. All one has to do to expose the folly of 70 graded coins being “rare” is note that MegaRed average grades are frequently above 69.5. IOW, the MAJORITY of examples are 70’s.
@VKurtB said:
Well… services CAN add something analogous to “value”. I had to internalize that. But rarity? Not ever. All one has to do to expose the folly of 70 graded coins being “rare” is note that MegaRed average grades are frequently above 69.5. IOW, the MAJORITY of examples are 70’s.
When I started attending the LB Expo in the mid-90’s, the Hyatt Recency (discounted coin show) rate was $79 per night. The last couple of times it was way over $200. Now it’s over $400.
There’s also way too much traffic on the 710 to get to LB. Used to take just over an hour from north county San Diego.
@NJCoin said:
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to >PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in >grading is in moderns.
I meant NEW competition. NGC, ANACs, ICG -- they've all been around for a while.
I wasn't denigrating them, I was just a bit sloppy referencing them.
@NJCoin said:
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the >different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business >that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
That business has always been there, I thought from the commentary at that time that the PE firms were really expecting sports memorabilia, NFTs, etc....many of which were flying at the time (late-2021/early-2022).
Or maybe they think more people will be collecting either classic coins (nice $$$) or modern coins (really nice $$$).
@lilolme said:
The PCGS show schedule was updated and there is a PCGS members only show in Irvine CA. in late October. About where Fall Long Beach was scheduled for this year. Wonder what is in store for 2026.
By comparison, may I ask what can be expected of a "PCGS Members Only Show?" I am aware of a similar show usually held in Las Vegas and one long ago in San Diego; I have not been because I always had Long Beach. Does the Las Vegas/will the Irvine show have a national draw for dealer attendance? Or is it solely a PCGS grading show? Thanks in advance for the answer and thanks all for the time you all have collectively put into this thread.
@lilolme said:
The PCGS show schedule was updated and there is a PCGS members only show in Irvine CA. in late October. About where Fall Long Beach was scheduled for this year. Wonder what is in store for 2026.
By comparison, may I ask what can be expected of a "PCGS Members Only Show?" I am aware of a similar show usually held in Las Vegas and one long ago in San Diego; I have not been because I always had Long Beach. Does the Las Vegas/will the Irvine show have a national draw for dealer attendance? Or is it solely a PCGS grading show? Thanks in advance for the answer and thanks all for the time you all have collectively put into this thread.
.
The PCGS members only shows will not resemble a Long Beach or Baltimore type of show (or other similar shows). They will be in a smaller room with maybe up to two dozen dealers set up at tables and some more 'on the floor'. Of course PCGS will have a nearly full service available (no variety and/or maybe world depending on request). Below is a link to Dec 2023 PCGS show in LV thread I did. Here is a list of dealers (sorry some abbreviated) I noted that had tables at the last Dec 2024 PCGS LV show (I may have missed a couple). However, some may not have much of the inventory with them that they have at a bigger show as they may not travel a full crew (Tangible, Northern N., NFC, Legend...). Attendance from show to show will vary some and again there are some there without tables selling and/or submitting.
JMS, Mike coin chest, Don Bonser & Wade S (younger), GC (auction), JDRC, Angle Dees, West Coast, Tangible, Stacks, Northern N, Glenn Schinke, Marks coin, John Gulde, Heritage, Bill Wetzler, Vegas coin, Numismatic Americana (Shamhart), Original US coin, Alhambra, Rarity7, Gregg Allen, Sable rarity, NFC, Legend (Witter at Legend table some).
JMS, Mike coin chest, Don Bonser & Wade S (younger), GC (auction), JDRC, Angle Dees, West Coast, Tangible, Stacks, Northern N, Glenn Schinke, Marks coin, John Gulde, Heritage, Bill Wetzler, Vegas coin, Numismatic Americana (Shamhart), Original US coin, Alhambra, Rarity7, Gregg Allen, Sable rarity, NFC, Legend (Witter at Legend table some).
@NJCoin said:
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the >different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business >that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
That business has always been there, I thought from the commentary at that time that the PE firms were really expecting sports memorabilia, NFTs, etc....many of which were flying at the time (late-2021/early-2022).
Or maybe they think more people will be collecting either classic coins (nice $$$) or modern coins (really nice $$$).
I noticed at Atlanta that the banner put up by ats - the other guys - is now saying over 60 million coins graded. It seems like not that long ago at all it was 30 million. That’s a lot of coins in a short time. The only possibility is that it’s moderns. Wow! The rate of encapsulation apparently is still accelerating. (Positive second derivative.)
I collect foreign coins as well as US, which I also buy slabbed or have slabbed. The folks ats seem to rule the roost when it comes to foreign, at least early coins. 90% of my foreign collection is in N holders, not by design, but by availability. The few ancients and oversize that I have are in N holders as well.
@GoldFinger1969 said: Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
Arlington was in the range of 15k for 3 days for about 25k SqFt. And it was much cheaper than anything else in the area. Plus all the add ons.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@GoldFinger1969 said: Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
Arlington was in the range of 15k for 3 days for about 25k SqFt. And it was much cheaper than anything else in the area. Plus all the add ons.
From DW website: "Traditionally, the Heritage February Long Beach sale is small in comparison to most other coin auctions conducted by this firm. This is due to the fact that Long Beach closely follows the FUN show held in January, which has become the biggest and best show and auction in the coin year. Given the choice of consigning to the vibrant FUN atmosphere as opposed to the moribund Long Beach gloom, most collectors and dealers wisely choose the Florida option."
@GoldFinger1969 said:
From DW website: "Traditionally, the Heritage February Long Beach sale is small in comparison to most other coin auctions conducted by this firm. This is due to the fact that Long Beach closely follows the FUN show held in January, which has become the biggest and best show and auction in the coin year. Given the choice of consigning to the vibrant FUN atmosphere as opposed to the moribund Long Beach gloom, most collectors and dealers wisely choose the Florida option."
@GoldFinger1969 said:
From DW website: "Traditionally, the Heritage February Long Beach sale is small in comparison to most other coin auctions conducted by this firm. This is due to the fact that Long Beach closely follows the FUN show held in January, which has become the biggest and best show and auction in the coin year. Given the choice of consigning to the vibrant FUN atmosphere as opposed to the moribund Long Beach gloom, most collectors and dealers wisely choose the Florida option."
Well that's what I thought, so I'm wondering why the 4 better quality CAC Saints I viewed at the Heritage table that I subsequently put very fair market bids on got blown away. I was the underbidder only on 1 out of 4 . Lessor quality material at the HA Long Beach auction did not do well, but any decent material that i watched received very healthy bids.
@JW77 said:
Well that's what I thought, so I'm wondering why the 4 better quality CAC Saints I viewed at the Heritage table that I >subsequently put very fair market bids on got blown away. I was the underbidder only on 1 out of 4 . Lessor quality >material at the HA Long Beach auction did not do well, but any decent material that i watched received very healthy >bids.
I'm confused...what happened at FUN that didn't at Long Beach ? You said you put in 4 FMV bids on CAC Saints at FUN...and got blown away (i.e., very strong bidding at FUN). Then you say you saw stronger bidding on lesser coins at LB.
Well if 300,000 collectors the show failed big time in getting a fraction of that. Is that fact mentioned in press hyperbole releases to attract dealers?
What was the actual attendence for show it was never mentioned
@giantsfan20 said:
Well if 300,000 collectors the show failed big time in getting a fraction of that. Is that fact mentioned in press hyperbole releases to attract dealers?
What was the actual attendence for show it was never mentioned
@JW77 said:
Well that's what I thought, so I'm wondering why the 4 better quality CAC Saints I viewed at the Heritage table that I >subsequently put very fair market bids on got blown away. I was the underbidder only on 1 out of 4 . Lessor quality >material at the HA Long Beach auction did not do well, but any decent material that i watched received very healthy >bids.
I'm confused...what happened at FUN that didn't at Long Beach ? You said you put in 4 FMV bids on CAC Saints at FUN...and got blown away (i.e., very strong bidding at FUN). Then you say you saw stronger bidding on lesser coins at LB.
Can you clarify ?
Sorry, I can see the confusion in my comments. I was strictly referring to the HA table at the Long Beach Show and the subsequent HA auction.
Comments
“ My time is valuable. Spending a full day (roundtrip) to spend another 2-3 days at a coin show is not worth it for me.”
And I spent 24 hours on the road one weekend to attend a coin auction live in York, PA. Different priorities. Bought three really nice large cents.
EXACTLY!!!! And that's the crux of the issue with OKC. If the idea was to weed out all but the most committed, they will succeed. If the idea was to make a show that is EASILY accessible to the greatest number of potential attendees, it will be a huge fail.
They probably already know this. The thing is, as you noted in another post, it's a political organization with multiple constituencies. Not a for-profit show promoter.
So, some group likely had to be appeased with OKC. Some will be happy. Others will suck it up and take one for the team. But many others will just stay home. It is what it is.
No reason to give anyone a hard time for not being willing to put in the hard work to attend a coin show. Not when there are multiple better options in a given year, in addition to other demands on people's time.
Probably. As I said, if it's fixable, I'm sure they will fix it.
But the problem might just be, in spite of what the promoters would like to see, that there is insufficient organic demand to support a for-profit show in Nashville. Or anywhere else in TN.
With or without Mr. Forbes, and with or without a disdain for the general public, as was evident in the execution of the last show. Time will tell, but there does seem to presently be as many shows as the market will support. Without a GACC or IMEX.
I SUSPECT that your assessment that the IMEX and the GACC shows are a stretch for the market’s needs is correct. Is GACC the new show last autumn on the Florida Gulf Coast? If that is it, think for just a moment who was behind those shows, and what they have in common. The IMEX 2 were consecutive past Presidents of the ANA, and GACC was the brainchild of a past ANA Executive Director, of modest duration. I have a theory about that. Having had a key role in prepping for ANA shows, and not having each and every thought you had listened to by the rest of paid staff at ANA, you can get “an itch that needs to be scratched”. You want to try things YOUR WAY and prove to those other people that you really DID know best. Seldom do new people to the process actually know best. The ANA has a considerable professional staff that carries off the details of a show/convention. (The summer one is a full blown convention, not a “coin show” at all.) Some past leaders are satisfied getting a major ANA convention in their neck of the woods. Think Anaheim 2016 and Walt Ostromecki. For a west coast show, it wasn’t too bad. The reported demise of the Long Beach show may lead to a return to greater LA for the ANA WFoM. “MAY”. 2028? Olympic City? Just after the Games? Hmm.
I was one of Col. Ellsworth’s and Gary Adkins’ six “minions” who met every morning at 0630 hours at IMEX. I was the only guy who understood the credit/debit card system for registration. Brett Irick was another. And there was a “security guy” too. (He was armed to the teeth.) It was NOT a democracy. It was the Colonel’s baby, through and through. My job was to make sure everything was as the Colonel wanted it. He comped me my room and paid me (too) well, also. I never set foot on the bourse floor for more than 3 minutes. Steve Forbes autographed a book for me. Me. A Keynesian truly and well formally educated, with a Steve Forbes autographed book. Oh, the irony. I was “out front” and in the office. I have extensive experience with ANA shows as a past ANA National Volunteer who became too infirm physically to handle my previous duties. The hours were killers. Up to 14 hours per day. I just can’t handle that level anymore.
I am now specializing in ad hoc emergency local volunteer tasks and competitive exhibits judging. Oh, and writing checks TO the ANA. I am now “a donor”, I guess.
Nashville has more direct flights than OKC has, but it's still limited service https://flynashville.com/flights/nonstop-destinations of one or two flights a day.
Any new show has the traditional problem of finding an acceptable venue (no sales tax issues) that is willing to have a coin show, where - unlike say Doctors - coin dealers don't rent lots of hotel rooms and purchase expensive banquet dinners.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Phoenix and Dallas both have ample flights from the West and would be excellent compromise show locations.
Phoenix is basically a California hub these days anyway, as California is too congested for more flights.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but hopefully someone will recognize the need for geographically diversified national shows in transportation and sales tax friendly cities.
I have to get over the last Phoenix show first. The February one between the two Colorado Springs ones. Phoenix was my worst experience of a coin show in my life. I nearly lost my life there. The ANA came away from Phoenix with a new addition to their “never again city” list. Dallas has had two very successful winter/spring ANA shows. On one occasion, I shot (photographically) a Kennedy half in Dealey Plaza, and shot it again from the grassy knoll. What? Too soon?
Wow. Crime?
And yet Nashville has a nonstop from London Heathrow. Nashville is doing a MAAAAAAAJOR airport update.
Yuppirs! I still haven’t recovered fully from my injuries. They just became part of the chronic background health issues. March 4, 2023. Not a good day.
The PCGS show schedule was updated and there is a PCGS members only show in Irvine CA. in late October. About where Fall Long Beach was scheduled for this year. Wonder what is in store for 2026.
Picked up Dalton, Nashville (IMEX) and Rosemont (GACC) for submissions only.
https://www.pcgs.com/shows
https://www.pcgs.com/shows/MembersOnly-2503?origintab=all
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
The current PCGS show schedule has only 2 PCGS members only shows. There is a hole for December and the last few/several years there has been one at that time. So a maybe for then. PCGS has, similar to last year, picked up more local/regional shows to set up and to do submissions only - PAN, TNA, Dalton, IMEX, GACC. Sounds easier to rent a table and take submissions at an established show. 2026 is going to be...?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
A PCGS members show in Irvine with onsite grading sounds like an excellent idea. The Marriot is a nice hotel within walking distance to the Spectrum, which is a lovely outdoor mall with nice shops and restaurants. The hotel is very close to the Orange County Airport, PCGS, GC, and SB. Irvine is located almost equidistant between LA and San Diego and is close to Laguna Beach and Newport Beach.
" Consider the ANA WFoM in Okie City. Dealers seem to hate it, without proven reason. Centrally located collectors are going to love it. ANA is NOT a coin dealers’ trade association. It’s an educational organization."
RIGHT ON!
The battle between the dealers wants and shows for the collector. continues.
ANA. Maybe~~ keep moving the WFOM show to a smaller venue every other year from Chicago.
Don't forget California 1/3 of ANA members are there. last CA show was in 2016!!
10 years ago. not much respect for such a large portion of your membership.
For years, the ANA has been VERY reluctant to step on Long Beach’s toes, except when a real push insisted. Anaheim/2016/Ostromecki. Same with Orlando and FUN, and Baltimore and Whitman. If Long Beach really is finished, I think you’ll see the greater LA area in the rotation. In addition to other ANA needs, one HUUUUGE one is a deep supply of volunteers from coin clubs in the area. Want an ANA show? Grab up scads of volunteers. No ANA show happens without them. This is why Rosemont and Pittsburgh keep popping up. The Chicago Coin Club and PAN both DRIP WITH VOLUNTEERS.
Does anybody have any idea what these convention centers cost to rent for 3-4 days ? I take it that's the big expense in running a show, although it's possible the Convention Center nickels-and-dimes you with expensive cleaning, security, and other add-ons which are mandatory (my club has had to deal with those).
The PE guys spent $700 MM to acquire CU. Cost of capital vs. Return on Investment calcs aside, I would think that a signature event like Long Beach might lose a few hundred thousand dollars, which should be a rounding error if you consider it a loss-leader attracting business.
Plus, why show weakness at the very moment the first real competition in decades has emerged to your TPG business (i.e., CACG) ?
I'm surprised that Texas doesn't have a big coin show.
2nd largest state...growing middle-class population....no longer boom-bust on the price of oil....12 hours from Long Beach to El Paso, 16 hours for Midland if you want something in West Texas within 1-days drive for Southern California. Obviously, East Texas adds 6 hours to your trip.
Some decent collectors from what I have been told live in the state.
Hi Finger,
When COVID hit, the theory was that the day of in-person shows was over and convention centers would be offering bargain basement pricing. Exactly the opposite happened. Unprecedentedly high prices, INCREDIBLY high, with ridiculous minimum room numbers purchases became the norm. Interestingly, prices in Europe DID moderate. My eight night trip to Berlin, with a 7-day mass transit U-Bahn and S-bahn pass, and a three day World Money Fair pass, and most of my meals INCLUDED at my hotel, cost me less than a three night stay at Atlanta starting tomorrow night. The American hospitality business is out of its stinking mind. With the savings, I bought a €103 ticket to the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra.
I don’t see PE ownership of either firm a positive development for the hobby, but my opinion on that has long been clear.
In terms of show planning, Oklahoma City is the same market as Texas. In a way, Texas has the big ANA convention this year. I doubt Texans will use an airport. Oklahoma and Texas clubs apparently have the volunteers to carry this off. In 2008 and 2012, the Philadelphia ANA conventions were held NOT with Philly volunteers, but primarily with those from Lancaster, PA and Wilmington, DE. Both were an easy Amtrak ride away. Philly HAD NO VOLUNTEERS to speak of in their clubs. Siting an ANA show is less about collectors or dealers or airports, and whole bunches more about having the volunteers to staff the thing, whether local or in the exurbs. I’m betting the Albuquerque Coin Club guys drive to OKC this year, too. They sure do drive, in numbers, to ANA Summer Seminar every year. I’m driving from Huntsville, AL.
Because running shows isn't core to their business, and not running them doesn't show weakness. It just saves them the rounding error. Which is important to them, because all PE cares about is the bottom line.
After all, it's not like they will now be the only TPG not also running shows. In fact, no one other than them ever did. Other than the ANA, back when it also owned a TPG.
Also, it's kind of disrespectful, not to mention ignoring reality, to suggest that NGC is not "real competition" to PCGS. Getting past the snobby preference of the hobby for PCGS for high value classic coins, the big money in grading is in moderns.
Where NGC might actually do more volume than PCGS. They also attracted a bid from PE.
Not to mention, the new guys in town, with all their pretension of being better and more strict than the rest of the crowd, chase moderns just like everyone else. Because there is no viable grading business without moderns, even though stickers did just fine without them.
I genuinely did not know that moderns were THAT essential to making a TPGS firm work. I suppose I should have guessed so. It will actually start bugging me if I think too much about it. What amazes me is how FUN keeps plugging along running two successful shows a year without an obvious alternate revenue stream. No publishing house, no grading firm, nada. Is there a hefty nest egg somewhere or something?
Yeah. Just think about the volumes from the mass marketers, and the constant supply of new issues. As compared to limited crackouts and crossovers from the classic market.
It's not even close, and there would be no business without the constant supply of new issue moderns, and all the different flavors of special labels that people chase, and that TPGs charge premiums for. Certainly not a business that PE would be interested in at a $500+ million valuation.
As evidence, CAC assiduously avoided moderns in the stickering business, but didn't dare be so picky when launching a full blown grading business.
And here I sit keeping the few modern issues I buy, from several countries, in their original government packaging. I feel like I’m personally endangering the hobby or something. It also explains why all 3 major firms all of a sudden at some point stopped being critical of slabbing moderns.
Nope. Just denying yourself the pleasure of chasing a label rather than enjoying a coin.
When the TV and web guys go back to marketing product in OGP rather than slabs in an infinite variety of special labels, THAT will endanger, not the hobby, but the TPG business model.
But it's not going to happen. Not only because the TPGs live off it, but because the mass marketers created the market, and it now allows them to charge premium prices for otherwise generic product.
Because a CACG PCGS NGC First Day Advance Release First Strike Yada Yada Yada MS70 bullion coin is MUCH more rare and valuable than a pristine ungraded example contained in an original Mint roll.
Well… services CAN add something analogous to “value”. I had to internalize that. But rarity? Not ever. All one has to do to expose the folly of 70 graded coins being “rare” is note that MegaRed average grades are frequently above 69.5. IOW, the MAJORITY of examples are 70’s.
You are single-handedly making Cougar look good.
When I started attending the LB Expo in the mid-90’s, the Hyatt Recency (discounted coin show) rate was $79 per night. The last couple of times it was way over $200. Now it’s over $400.
There’s also way too much traffic on the 710 to get to LB. Used to take just over an hour from north county San Diego.
I meant NEW competition. NGC, ANACs, ICG -- they've all been around for a while.
I wasn't denigrating them, I was just a bit sloppy referencing them.
That business has always been there, I thought from the commentary at that time that the PE firms were really expecting sports memorabilia, NFTs, etc....many of which were flying at the time (late-2021/early-2022).
Or maybe they think more people will be collecting either classic coins (nice $$$) or modern coins (really nice $$$).
By comparison, may I ask what can be expected of a "PCGS Members Only Show?" I am aware of a similar show usually held in Las Vegas and one long ago in San Diego; I have not been because I always had Long Beach. Does the Las Vegas/will the Irvine show have a national draw for dealer attendance? Or is it solely a PCGS grading show? Thanks in advance for the answer and thanks all for the time you all have collectively put into this thread.
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The PCGS members only shows will not resemble a Long Beach or Baltimore type of show (or other similar shows). They will be in a smaller room with maybe up to two dozen dealers set up at tables and some more 'on the floor'. Of course PCGS will have a nearly full service available (no variety and/or maybe world depending on request). Below is a link to Dec 2023 PCGS show in LV thread I did. Here is a list of dealers (sorry some abbreviated) I noted that had tables at the last Dec 2024 PCGS LV show (I may have missed a couple). However, some may not have much of the inventory with them that they have at a bigger show as they may not travel a full crew (Tangible, Northern N., NFC, Legend...). Attendance from show to show will vary some and again there are some there without tables selling and/or submitting.
JMS, Mike coin chest, Don Bonser & Wade S (younger), GC (auction), JDRC, Angle Dees, West Coast, Tangible, Stacks, Northern N, Glenn Schinke, Marks coin, John Gulde, Heritage, Bill Wetzler, Vegas coin, Numismatic Americana (Shamhart), Original US coin, Alhambra, Rarity7, Gregg Allen, Sable rarity, NFC, Legend (Witter at Legend table some).
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1098387/pcgs-las-vegas-show-dec-2023-observations-and-stuff#latest
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Fantastic, thanks a million.
I noticed at Atlanta that the banner put up by ats - the other guys - is now saying over 60 million coins graded. It seems like not that long ago at all it was 30 million. That’s a lot of coins in a short time. The only possibility is that it’s moderns. Wow! The rate of encapsulation apparently is still accelerating. (Positive second derivative.)
What is "ats" please?
The three letter company that starts with an “N”. The acronym stands for “across the street”.
I collect foreign coins as well as US, which I also buy slabbed or have slabbed. The folks ats seem to rule the roost when it comes to foreign, at least early coins. 90% of my foreign collection is in N holders, not by design, but by availability. The few ancients and oversize that I have are in N holders as well.
Arlington was in the range of 15k for 3 days for about 25k SqFt. And it was much cheaper than anything else in the area. Plus all the add ons.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Which Arlington is that? Texas? Virginia?
Texas
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Just a heads up for those attending the Irvine Members only Event.
Here is the parking rates. Valet only No Self Park ..Hope PCGS validates
Standard Daily Valet Rate - $15 first 2 hours with validation, max $55
Valet parking, fee: 55.00 USD daily
On-site parking, fee: 55.00 USD
If the price does not change by then.
From DW website: "Traditionally, the Heritage February Long Beach sale is small in comparison to most other coin auctions conducted by this firm. This is due to the fact that Long Beach closely follows the FUN show held in January, which has become the biggest and best show and auction in the coin year. Given the choice of consigning to the vibrant FUN atmosphere as opposed to the moribund Long Beach gloom, most collectors and dealers wisely choose the Florida option."
Forgive me, what is DW?
No problem, my fault....Doug Winters, an expert in Double Eagles who does lots of great work on Liberty Head DEs and other pre-1900 gold coins.
Has done great work on the Fairmont Collection on his website:
https://raregoldcoins.com/blog?category=Market Blog
Ah, "who," not "what." Thanks for the response.
Well that's what I thought, so I'm wondering why the 4 better quality CAC Saints I viewed at the Heritage table that I subsequently put very fair market bids on got blown away. I was the underbidder only on 1 out of 4 . Lessor quality material at the HA Long Beach auction did not do well, but any decent material that i watched received very healthy bids.
I'm confused...what happened at FUN that didn't at Long Beach ? You said you put in 4 FMV bids on CAC Saints at FUN...and got blown away (i.e., very strong bidding at FUN). Then you say you saw stronger bidding on lesser coins at LB.
Can you clarify ?
Just curious how you/we know that. Not sure also how you define "area."
Well if 300,000 collectors the show failed big time in getting a fraction of that. Is that fact mentioned in press hyperbole releases to attract dealers?
What was the actual attendence for show it was never mentioned
Feel free to private message me
Sorry, I can see the confusion in my comments. I was strictly referring to the HA table at the Long Beach Show and the subsequent HA auction.