How much does provenance add to a coin's value?
psuman08
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Does it have to be a specific coin in a famous auction? Or does any Eliasberg, Pittman or Bass coin carry a premium?
I am attending a local auction where I have tied a California gold 1/2 to the Bowers & Merena Bass sale. Should I expect to pay a premium and how much?
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I would say it's a case-by-case scenario. For me, it's all about the coin in question. I purchased a few Hansen's but the provenance had nothing to do with it.
Good luck!
The coin itself is what counts, and many of those classic collectors like Eliasberg, managed to have the finest known coins, in pristine condition so the coins are PQ for sure, but the pedigree itself doesn't bring a premium as far as I can see.
In this specific case, it depends on the BG number, overall rarity, condition/TPGS, and interest from others.
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If it has a story like the cricket did. Definitely.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Provenance can either help or harm. There are some I actively chase and some I actively avoid. I find it odd when a mediocre collection is slabbed with the provenance. No need to name names though.
Here is an example of a coin that, for some reason, was tried for upgrade but lost it's original provenance:
https://www.scoins.com/lot.aspx?a=35&l=785
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
Picked up a Pittman error coin a few years ago. Nothing special but I like the pedigree and the premium was small.
Buzz Aldrin Peace Dollar that road to the Moon carries a tens of thousand of Dollars premium. Location is everything.
I'm probably in the minority, but in general, I don't care about coin pedigrees. My interest is with the coin, so I don't really care who owned it before unless it was someone really famous. All the D. L. Hansen coins for sale currently at David Lawrence are pretty much out of my price range anyway.
Dwayne F. Sessom
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And, imo, many of them aren’t all that special.
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Case by case thing. Like if from shipwreck possibly higher demand IMO.
For me, not a whole lot. I’m much more focused on the coin itself. That said, I know it’s more important to others, so it’s nice to have down the road should I decide to sell.
Dave
Are you serious? That's like asking whether and how much you should expect to pay for eye-appealing color. If the issue is whether progeny can add value, the answer is yes, it's as much a market grading factor as is eye appeal. But there's as far as anybody can say.
It matters, a little, sometimes.
The real value is that really, really nice coins tend to find themselves in the collections of really, really astute collectors. The name itself doesn’t mean much. The fact that it was in a certain auction means very little, perhaps with a handful of notable exceptions.
A Jack Lee Peace dollar or Morgan is almost certain to be one of the best he ever saw, and he sorted through thousands (millions?) of them. Out of the tens of millions of extant Peace dollars, only 24 (or 48) of them were in his collection. That matters.
A Hansen pedigree is probably nice, but he’s owned and sold thousands of coins. On average, the designation matters a little less.
Exceptions abound. Some mediocre collections contain one or two outstanding pieces. Some problem coins sometimes end up in the sets of stellar collectors. You still have to look at the coin!
Well i paid about 10% extra to get a coin from the Jules Reiver collection. Great provenance.
I deducted 10% from my bid on a Maumee valley coin. Seriously. The guy was a crook so who pays more for that distinction? James
In world and ancient coins, where most coins are raw, provenance is extremely important, and can add to the value quite a bit. An old provenance helps to give confidence to authentication and surface stability, as well as protects against overly broad cultural property laws (which typically have exceptions for coins that are not recent finds).
With American coins the provenances are mostly younger and of less importance and value, unless the host collection was one of extreme quality.
Pedigreed coins from historic sets, and plated coins from important reference works, are special to me. I'll pay up more for one of these. Part of the hobby is the aspect of holding a bit of history in one's hand and being able to see a picture of my coin in a catalog from years (decades?) ago, or knowing one of my coins was studied by the authors of a definitive book, is fascinating.
In full agreement with @seatedlib3991 - I very recently bought the Jules Reiver catalogs from 2006 from a person on this forum, just so I could have the documentation of a few of my Reiver pedigreed coins. Or maybe: identify a coin in my set that may not have been pedigreed on the label but which could be a proven match - how cool would that be? Just like that Pittman coin above from @OldeTowneCoinShoppe 's post... some of them are bound to have been "orphaned" from their labels over time!
Of course, the coin is the thing... but if there were two equal coins at auction and one of them had a famous pedigree, that would definitely be the one I'd prefer - and I bet I'd have to bid up to get it.
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extremely subjective
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Some collectors will care about provenance - even non-famous or unimportant previous owners - more than others. The people who care will add value. Asking "how much value" is like asking "how long is a piece of string". Provenance turns an otherwise generic fungible coin into a unique artifact with a unique history all its own, in the eyes of the people who care. You can't readily apply market formulas to unique artifacts.
Most collectors who "care about provenance" don't care enough about it to try and research prior owners and re-discover "lost provenance". So if an auction catalog or sale listing doesn't mention the provenance, it probably won't have any impact on the sale price, since nobody knows it except you (and perhaps anyone else who did similar research). This does create an opportunity for the diligent researcher to value-add to the coin when it comes time to sell.
Personally, I wish I had more provenance information for my collection. For most of my collection, the provenance history is "I got it from that guy over there".
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Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
I like to know as far back as I can, even if it might be listing collectors who might not be as well recognized (beyond a select group of specialists) as the most famous Numismatists.
This coin is such an example, where BHNC Members would recognize the three previous owners I know of, but others may not. I'm not sure where "Swampy" got it from.
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1822 O-110a (110.3); PCGS AU55cac
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Todd - BHNC #242
Almost any coin with Norweb or Eliasberg carries a premium.
When the Reiver collection of EAC was sold by Heritage in 2012, many lots sold at a discount as they were in (market over-graded) NGC holders. One quick example:
Does this coin appear AU55 to you (I know it’s a medium letters)?
I like pedigrees because it's nice to see that a coin hasn't changed much in appearance in decades, it verifies that it's not a counterfeit made recently, and it is nice to know that other passionate collectors found the coin worthy of collecting - nowadays for me with buying better and better coins, almost every one came from some traceable collection, so it's also fun to try to figure out lost pedigrees
I've read that the Wells Fargo pedigree from the Wells Fargo Bank hoard of Saint Gaudens double eagles can actually hurt the value of the coin because so many were over graded by PCGS and the pedigree now carries a stigma and that many have been sent back for reholdering with the request that the Wells Fargo pedigree be taken off the label.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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I saw a few silver dollars for sale at my favorite B&M store that say "GREAT MONTANA COLLECTION" on the label. Almost bought one for my collection just because of the cool name provenance. Close inspection of the GREAT MONTANA COLLECTION silver dollar pieces being offered revealed defects on them that I could not abide having in my own collection, however.
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This is a great way to contribute to the hobby and to cherrypick as well: researching lost provenance. And it's why I LOVE coins with distinct features and toning, and HATE when coins are dipped-n-stripped.
Here's a link to a bust half dime plate coin thread where I announced that I'd cherrypicked myself. In this example, the provenance was known but the "plate coin" status was not known - but I've also found the reverse, a coin labeled Plate Coin from the Logan-McCloskey book Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837 that also turned out to be a Russ Logan coin. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13789585/#Comment_13789585
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
I believe this is correct. I had one of those (OGH), sold it & thankfully broke even.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
In my view there are two kinds of provenances: One is from a famous person, the other is from a famous collection. Provenance from a famous person means nothing to me. But provenance from a famous collection is indeed meaningful.
I think there is some value. If it's a nice coin that I am otherwise interested in, a famous pedigree may increase my desire to own it. I won't pursue an ugly coin just for the pedigree.
That is a nice coin!
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I think coins handed down to you by your parents is all the provenance you need,that would mean the most to me. Regardless of numismatic value.
Talk about hard to find. I have a few EPN coins and one from The Childs Collection (Google that!)
https://www.pcgs.com/news/finest-known-1804-silver-dollar-graded-pr68-by-pcgs
The NNP has the auction catalog and prices realized at https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=4&AuctionId=524048
Sold for $977.50. Mine is the 1851 EF-45 piece now in a PCGS AU50 holder with the provenance... In 1999 that was $110 in PCGS's price guide, $200 today... does the provenance (honestly, "A nothing burger coin from an important collection") add anything?
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Provenance adds value for some collectors, I am not one of them. Personally, I could care less where a coin came from or who owned it before me. If I like the coin I buy the coin. RGDS!
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Whether or not, it's a factor in market grading, and can raise the market grade. Eye appeal can do it, and progeny can. Whether and to what degree a TPG takes it into account, like, again, toning, luster, strike, anything else, that's, of course, their business. Personally, I think most of it is just a status thing. Some need it to be Perrier, even though it's ordinary seltzer water. But that's why it's a factor in market grading, there's a market for it. Maybe it's not exactly your market. Maybe color isn't your market. But that's, in effect, how it works.
I remember when sadly, some dealers intentionally had the “Eliasberg” provenance removed from grading labels. They did so in cases where the grading appeared to be particularly liberal and they didn’t want potential buyers to be aware of what the coins had brought at auction, before being graded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@blitzdude. I will agree that I don't have to have anything printed on the slab. However, i love provenance of the sort where I can learn who the previous owners were. I have and have had a few coins where the seller was able to tell me some of the back story of the coin I am buying.
Much like cars though, you have to watch out for made up (Only driven by a little old lady on Saturday's type stories). James
I think it's fun to have some coins by some of the "greatest" collections, but I try not to pay much premium for them. Most of my pedigreed coins are in half cents, where I really know about the collectors and their collections. Generally, the coins are very nice, and well known within the specialty circles. I love when I can track the coin from collector to collector for long periods of time within the EAC community. I also love when I can get their original envelopes and cotton liners that went with the coin before it was holdered.
Other commercialized pedigrees (Hansen) bear no credence to me. In fact, Hansen's name is a detractor. Unlike the group above, Hansen is a marketer. Sure, he collects, but he doesn't specialize in collecting anything. His specialty is finding the money in the hobby, and he has done that. He has partnered with David Lawrence to market what are said to be his downgrades. He bought interest in CACG, and is now converting all his coins to that service because (apparently I am to believe) CACG will hold his coins to a more strict standard. I consider him more of the hobby business man, opposed to what I consider a collector. But, if I had a billion dollars, I might do the same (I will never know). For the record...There are great coins in Hansen holders that deserve a premium. But, the premium is on the coin, and not the pedigree.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
I have a 1926-P Lincoln Cent from a jar of "wheaties" that my maternal grandfather gave me 51 years ago. Although I was just a child, it was a noteworthy specimen as it graded low MS. While the other coins in that jar have long since scattered, this one cent is still in my collection and has much sentimental value to me today.
The marketplace loves a significant pedigree.
I was silly enough to start bidding on this. I dropped out at around $1500.
The coin brought only $28.75 less, nine years ago:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/1-1HDQK/1838-o-liberty-seated-dime-no-stars-fortin-102-rarity-3-ef-45-pcgs-cac-ogh
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As a long time half cent collector, I was thrilled to pick up this beauty with pedigree. I happily paid up for it. I especially love owning the original Partrick envelope.
I’ll be listing a Stewart Blay Lincoln cent soon and will include a post in the BST section so I don’t want to appear to be promoting it here but it will be interesting to see if the (unattributed but advertised) provenance adds any value to the sale.
Tim
To me a list of prior owners is great if the coin is unusually nice, rare or a condition census (among the finest known for a die variety that is popularly collected) item. If it's something common or just "stuff," I can't see an advantage to it. That is especially true if the asking price is significantly higher because of the listed prior owner.
I have known a few collectors who were very much into the concept of "collecting collectors." I'm not among them.
For my primary interest, a coin from one of the few more prominent (but far from famous) collections gives me added confidence it's genuine if it's not in a TPG holder. (I'd definitely be interested in a "chain of custody" back to minting if this were possible, but it isn't. But again, only to confirm authenticity.) I can also compare the coin as it appears now back to the auction catalog image to identify any changes.
Other than that, It's of no value to me. Like a post above mine. I don't care who owned it.
I guess I never really answered the question ... how much does it add to the coin's value?
None ... UNLESS ... 1. The coin stands on it's own ... AND ... 2. The provenance adds to the historical significance to the buyer or our community as a whole.
I have a friend who has a special taste for Newman-Green coins. Considering the ones he chases are the some of the finest known for their type and variety, with spectacular original toning, I totally understand his fixation. He's probably paying up a little. But there's three other bidders behind him in most cases, so he has to pay up if he's going to own them.
Me, would I pay a few percent more for some of the BHNC founder's or significant members coins? Or maybe a Green-Newman in my grade range, or maybe an Eliasberg? If 1. above applies, then yes, maybe. But I might always pay a few percent more if the coin is really all there for what I want.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
There was a 1913 type I Buffalo nickel which graded fine that was in the Eliasberg sale. It sold for $175! 😳
I have never been enamored with provenance. If a coin is nice I will buy it, if not, then I won’t.
For me it adds nothing but for others a lot. To each their own.
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How much would it add to the value if you could prove a generic early half dollar was George Washington’s good luck coin he carried all throughout his time as President? Would it sell for more than the highest graded coin of that type?
Edited to remove reference Commanding General.
There were no US half dollars when he was a Commanding General.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Deleted, due to wrong time period.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.