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Very Rare NEWP - GTG

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  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Recall TDN resubmitting Dollars that he thought were over graded.

    So Dan, do you keep it in the current holder or send the piece in for reconsideration?

    I’ve cracked some big boy coins, but I still don’t have the cojones to crack this one :D . It would stay in that NGC holder until a PCGS employee is the one cracking it.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
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  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, he sounded like he knows these better than most and you gotta love it when the veterans weigh in.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    [Checking the secret "Rarity Points Memorandum" to see how many extra points this is supposed to get just because it is rare]

    Exactly the reason why I guess 55

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,995 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:
    I grade this coin ICGP - I Can't Grade Pioneer.

    Fantastic look to it though, as you surely know! I liked it the first time I saw it.

    Same here. I have no clue on the grade and did not even know Oregon pioneer gold even existed.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Jacques_LoungecoqueJacques_Loungecoque Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if the graders were drunk when they evaluated that coin? It’s well known that alcohol is the number one cause of over-rating beavers.

    I had zero confidence in guessing a grade for this coin and I still have zero confidence in grading these coins. As you said, who the heck actually knows what the baseline is? I guess it really just comes down to eye appeal on coins like this when ascribing value. No matter what, it’s awesome.

    Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.

  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,149 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was only off by 25! The one thing I got right is these are graded on a curve. The grade on the slab is of less importance for something as special as this.

    It seems safe to say you are well inside the condition census and that the coin is unmessed-with is a big plus.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't guess a grade because in my opinion these coins should be evaluated on their surface preservation rather than level of detail present. It might appear that these are two of the same thing, but they are not and there was really no way to tell what was going on with the surfaces in the images provided.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2024 3:19AM

    Thanks for sharing and offering insight on Pioneer Gold.

    GTG threads can be educational at several levels when the thought process is shared with the grading opinion offered.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dan I think it's very impressive that you not only have a passion for coins but feel so strong about the history. Spending this kind of money certainly proves it.
    Keep it up and you'll have one heck of a collection.
    Maybe you already do. From what I have seen so far your on the right track.
    My opinion may not mean much nonetheless I enjoy your threads and seeing your stuff.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
    Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Recall TDN resubmitting Dollars that he thought were over graded.

    So Dan, do you keep it in the current holder or send the piece in for reconsideration?

    I’ve cracked some big boy coins, but I still don’t have the cojones to crack this one :D . It would stay in that NGC holder until a PCGS employee is the one cracking it.

    Do you think cac would “details” the coin? I honestly feel it would be a coin flip odds with them grading it (or not).

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I have never shopped for one of these. Going by the pieces in The Red Book, it looks like they got a lot of circulation add wear and were not well struck.

    Even if the dies were not very good, I don't see any mint surface on this piece.

    I looked a "Coin Facts." They have an MS-62 displayed, and it has quite a bit of detail. Their "EF-45" is way over graded if it started out looking like the MS-62.

    So, I think we have "the slab grade" and the real grade situation.

    The slab grade is probably EF-40.

    My grade would be Fine to VF.

    Rarity should not lower grading standards, but we all know that it does.

    Here's the Coin Facts link.

    https://pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1849-5-oregon/images/10288

    (Written Sunday morning)

    Bill, you and I think too much alike.
    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    I didn't guess a grade because in my opinion these coins should be evaluated on their surface preservation rather than level of detail present. It might appear that these are two of the same thing, but they are not and there was really no way to tell what was going on with the surfaces in the images provided.

    Tom, you’re exactly right. I actually had that exact thought in my head and wanted to add that as a “disclaimer”, so to speak, in one of my most recent comments. My memory lets me down often, thank goodness you’re here. 😅

    Because surface preservation is so critical for pioneer,I always try to include videos in my posts when possible. Sadly, that was a rushed video and for some reason Vimeo made the quality worse. It’s too bad the forum software can’t just let us insert vids into the post.

    .

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  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:

    @PeakRarities said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Recall TDN resubmitting Dollars that he thought were over graded.

    So Dan, do you keep it in the current holder or send the piece in for reconsideration?

    I’ve cracked some big boy coins, but I still don’t have the cojones to crack this one :D . It would stay in that NGC holder until a PCGS employee is the one cracking it.

    Do you think cac would “details” the coin? I honestly feel it would be a coin flip odds with them grading it (or not).

    No, I think if it was sent raw to CAC it would probably end up in a 40 holder. I’ve showed the coin to several experts within my circle and no one can find a defect, cleaning, or any type of manipulation that John wouldn’t like. It’s one of those coins I believe he would like as 40, but he’d probably sticker it in a 45 holder. Keep in mind, this coin was an “au50” before CAC even opened, so this is a good example of a good original coin that the graders felt generous with at the time and they gave it a little smooch.

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  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:
    I think a big problem with territorials is that very people really know how to grade them. The coins in general are poorly struck with defective planchettes and uncirculated or AU ones often look like train wrecks. DW once said there are only a handful of people in the world who know how to grade them and none of them work for TPSs.

    Ditto Colonials IMO.

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would it be a smart start by sending the coin in the current holder to cac and see if it will sticker as a 50? Reason I say that is because you could then automatically get it crossed to a cacg 50 holder. If it fails the sticker as a NGC 50, then go the pcgs route and try to sticker it in that plastic

  • Some more information and a good write up on Oregon Exchange Company gold coins can be found on page 60 of the April-May 2000 Rare Coin Review #134.

    https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/561745?page=61

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1madman said:
    Would it be a smart start by sending the coin in the current holder to cac and see if it will sticker as a 50? Reason I say that is because you could then automatically get it crossed to a cacg 50 holder. If it fails the sticker as a NGC 50, then go the pcgs route and try to sticker it in that plastic

    I wouldn't even waste the time or money, its so plainly overgraded that I know for a fact JA wouldn't sticker it as an AU. If it was a 45/50 liner i would send it, but its a 40/45 liner. Its got some residual luster, but its not mint luster, it's weird beaver luster.

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  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:

    @1madman said:
    Would it be a smart start by sending the coin in the current holder to cac and see if it will sticker as a 50? Reason I say that is because you could then automatically get it crossed to a cacg 50 holder. If it fails the sticker as a NGC 50, then go the pcgs route and try to sticker it in that plastic

    I wouldn't even waste the time or money, its so plainly overgraded that I know for a fact JA wouldn't sticker it as an AU. If it was a 45/50 liner i would send it, but its a 40/45 liner. Its got some residual luster, but its not mint luster, it's weird beaver luster.

    That's the best kind of luster.

  • Jacques_LoungecoqueJacques_Loungecoque Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:
    …… it’s weird beaver luster.

    Hands down , the phrase of the month.

    Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely awesome thread Dan, with super info (& a great read as well)! Some of the posts are educational too; this was an issue I knew nothing about & feel like I got a free reward in that regard. Look forward to hooking up in Tampa!
    Ken

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @PeakRarities said:

    @1madman said:
    Would it be a smart start by sending the coin in the current holder to cac and see if it will sticker as a 50? Reason I say that is because you could then automatically get it crossed to a cacg 50 holder. If it fails the sticker as a NGC 50, then go the pcgs route and try to sticker it in that plastic

    I wouldn't even waste the time or money, its so plainly overgraded that I know for a fact JA wouldn't sticker it as an AU. If it was a 45/50 liner i would send it, but its a 40/45 liner. Its got some residual luster, but its not mint luster, it's weird beaver luster.

    That's the best kind of luster.

    Antibiotics will typically clear that up

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,995 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still did not see the posted grade.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oreville said:
    I still did not see the posted grade.

    Here’s the reveal post:

    “Ok, quite a wide variety of guesses here...let us dive in.

    The coin is currently graded AU-50 by NGC, and it has been for about the last 20 years, give or take. My source tells me that he thought he remembered the coin as a PCGS 45 prior to that, but at some point, it was upgraded to its white-pronged coffin.

    Now here's the fun part- I would not accept AU-50 as a "correct" answer, despite what the label says. I don't think I've ever said this about any purchase of mine, let alone an expensive purchase, at the end of an arduous search for this elusive piece of Gold Rush history. This coin is patently overgraded, and quite frankly it doesnt even have a claim to AU.

    Truthfully, we dont really know how these pieces looked right after they were struck, as far as I know there's just two uncirculated examples. The top pop MS62 can be seen on coinfacts, and we can see that the piece displays some typical weakness on the reverse lettering, and in the center of the rims closest to the ends of the beaver. That softeness is caused by the layout of the design in which the beaver is a fairly prominent with not much clearance to the rims. As a result, most of the metal flows to try to fill out the beaver, and the rims end up weakly defined. If any of them were struck with insufficient force, even if it was only slightly insufficient, it would probably look alot like this coin, but with better surfaces and more luster.

    Of the 6,000 pieces struck, less than 1% of them survive today. The Oregonian settlers were desperate for a practical medium of exchange at this point in time, so much so that in 1843, the provisional government passed legislation that made wheat into legal tender. Privately issued "Wheat receipts" began to circulate as unnofficial cash, and later on, they used flint arrowheads as quasi coinage. Given the context of such a desperate need for practical coinage, it's no surprise that this gold "Beaver-Money" saw such extensive circulation. Later on, many coins met their fate in the crucible, since the higher-than-normal intrinsic value of these coins encouraged widespread melting. It's also important to recognize that the gold used in the production of the beaver money was pure and not alloyed, which explains why they are so soft, and often come with deep cuts and abrasions.

    I had been on the lookout for a wholesome beaver for the past several years, and if one took so much as 5-10 minutes to look through auction archives and familiarize themself with the issue, then would they understand that this is an outstanding example in comparison to whats out there. These coins often had planchet defects upon striking, this coin has a small one on the reverse under "5D". The color is a natural green-gold hue, with rosey tinges in the peripheries. The wear is even and balanced, and there arent any unsettling abrasions that catch the eye. Here's a link to a Heritage sale in 2005 where this coin sold for 70k, and what's important to note is that the dirt around the devices was there at that time and it hasnt changed. Original dirt is a great indicator of originality, but Pioneer is a frequently manipulated series and some pieces have been artifically caked with dirt in recent years.

    I'd say that my grade for this coin is 43. I see it as a very solid technical 40, but I would give it an "originality bump" to 45 due to the pleasing surfaces and lack of distractions. It's not so much about "rarity points" as it is recognizing and appreciating the circumstances in which they were created, and trying not to be overly critical as if it were a regular issue U.S. coin. If you guessed 35, I totally understand that and if you were being strictly technical with no clemency for the methods of manufacture, that would probably be the right grade. That said, PCGS doesn't use strict technical grading and based on whats already out there in similar grades, this coin deserves to be in an XF holder. There's a reasonable argument to be made that it is maxed at 40, but when I look at the coins at that grade level in coinfacts, I much prefer the appearance of this one. One of the problems with Pioneer is that the grading services were so inconsistent overtime. For a while everything was undergraded, but at the same time problem coins were holdered as problem free. Pioneer gold is a minefield, and many coins, straight graded and otherwise, have been worked on, repaired, and mutilated in a number of ways. I fell in love with this piece because there's no real problem. It's honest, original, and it tells one hell of a story.

    Many of you nailed it, and I especially appreciate the added commentary from @coinkat, @crypto, @cladiador, and @mfeld. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised with the results from this one and I expected worse. Admittedly, I didn't take these photos and I'm not a huge fan of the way Noah shot the coin. I don't have it in my possession at the moment, but when I get to photograph it I'll post more pictures here. Im going to add some more photos of some similarly graded coins, and some in lower grades just for fun.

    My long term goal for this coin is actually to DOWNcross it to a PCGS 45 holder eventually. I suspect that the coin has a great shot at CAC approval in an XF grade, but I would never even bother sending it in as an AU50. This one will be with me for a while, and I'm truly grateful to be it's steward.

    P62 (Top Pop)

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-NKUG0/1849-oregon-exchange-company-5-k-1-rarity-5-ms-62-pcgs

    N53
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/territorial-and-fractional-gold/1849-5-oregon-exchange-co-five-dollar-au53-ngc-k-1-r5-pcgs-10288-/a/1344-4122.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

    N50 ( The Present Coin)

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/1849-5-oregon-exchange-co-five-dollar-au50-ngc-k-1-r6-oregon-pioneers-were-among-the-first-to-hear-of-the-discovery-o/a/372-9207.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0

    N45 CAC

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/territorial-and-fractional-gold/1849-5-oregon-exchange-co-five-dollar-xf45-ngc-k-1-r6-cac-pcgs-10288-/a/1341-4506.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515#

    P40

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1271-5215.s

    P25

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/1849-5-oregon-exchange-co-five-dollar-vf25-pcgs-k-1-r5/a/1218-3316.s?lotPosition=7&ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ArchiveSearchResults-012417

    P15 CAC
    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-18C4U7/1849-oregon-exchange-company-5-k-1-rarity-5-fine-15-pcgs-cac-cmq
    Founder- Peak Rarities
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    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2024 1:21PM

    @oreville said:
    I still did not see the posted grade.

    50 on the NGC holder. 43 on the analysis.

  • It's a coin where you could argue that third party grading becomes a minor point outside of noting if a coin has been plugged or messed with in some way. I tried to find Dan's coin in old auction records because I enjoy researching the history of specific coins. While searching, it was interesting to see the grades assigned to various pieces through time. There was then, and still is, a struggle to define how to grade these coins. From what I saw, auction results in the past were quite strong regardless.

    I would imagine there wouldn't be a huge difference between one of these coins listed raw vs. slabbed today. The coin itself becomes more important than any assigned grade when you have a soft, pure gold coin that was generally poorly struck and has limited survivors that are almost all circulated in some way.

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:
    I think a big problem with territorials is that very people really know how to grade them. The coins in general are poorly struck with defective planchettes and uncirculated or AU ones often look like train wrecks. DW once said there are only a handful of people in the world who know how to grade them and none of them work for TPSs.

    I feel better about my early VF25 prediction. Coin bumped to 30 when I viewed it on the phone and the much smaller image softened the surface imperfections. Carr produces tokens and went vf35.

    Yesterday while waiting for the reveal, I checked the Heritage archives and put them in order by grade. Feld's 40-45 (and then Dan's call made sense then, at least in regard to this issue.

    Really a great thread as many opinions were valid.

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thats a nice one, I'd say AU58.

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  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2024 4:38PM

    @CaptHenway I totally respect your viewpoint and if things had been done that way for the last 40 years we wouldn't have this issue. But now that the cat's out of the bag, do you propose penalizing a coin like this knowing that not every other coin is coming in to get downgraded? If there was one overgraded outlier that would be one thing but it's basically the entire type.

    It's an unfortunate situation but calling Dan's coin a VF in the marketplace is extremely punitive compared to the other VFs that are out there.

  • CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:
    Thats a nice one, I'd say AU58.

    I’d say 66 based on what we’ve learned. Just look at the hair on that beaver! Then come back down to earth a little for the chunked rim shot, 64.

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2024 4:58PM

    Thanks for the response, @CaptHenway.

    I agree with you that the practice of awarding rarity points is sometimes taken too far. In the case of 93-S VS 81-s morgan, its extremely clear that they are graded differently, but they are both part of the same series....

    In the case of Pioneer Gold, issues that were crudely manufactured with poorly made planchets and dilapidated equipment, I would argue that XF-40 is a solid technical grade for this coin, even according to the ANA standards.

    EF-40 (Also Extremely Fine-40) – Has only slight wear but more extensive than the preceding (EF-45), still with excellent overall sharpness. Traces of mint luster may still show. All design elements show clearly.

    And PCGS' interpretation:

    "All design elements still show, but high points now worn flat. Little to no luster remains."

    As far as I'm concerned, the OP coin meets those criteria. NGC's grade of 50 was when rarity points were applied, but I think the coin deserves a technical 40 as a minimum, but should be in a 45 holder if we're market grading.

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  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,149 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great coin, great thread.

    Now let’s move to a more important question. When are you getting your hands on an Oregon 10?

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MJ is definitely the best. No reason not to take a position there.

  • johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PeakRarities said:

    @breakdown said:
    Great coin, great thread.

    Now let’s move to a more important question. When are you getting your hands on an Oregon 10?

    That one will be around the same time that I get my Baldwin $10, Templeton Reid $10, or Kellogg $50…. I wouldn’t stay up too late waiting for that thread to be posted :D .

    What about Dubosq, Schultz and Pacific Company? Are those three on the list?

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @johnny010 said:

    @PeakRarities said:

    @breakdown said:
    Great coin, great thread.

    Now let’s move to a more important question. When are you getting your hands on an Oregon 10?

    That one will be around the same time that I get my Baldwin $10, Templeton Reid $10, or Kellogg $50…. I wouldn’t stay up too late waiting for that thread to be posted :D .

    What about Dubosq, Schultz and Pacific Company? Are those three on the list?

    Johnny, they're all on the list pal 😂.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
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  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:
    For a coin like that all you really need is authentication, and affirmation that the coin has not been significantly "manipulated".
    So the actual grade number is not that important. Future buyers can bid accordingly based on what they see in the photos and be fairly confident on what they are bidding on without an in-person examination.

    But where would one get that type of affirmation without an in-person evaluation?

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  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2024 12:24AM

    @PeakRarities said:

    @dcarr said:
    For a coin like that all you really need is authentication, and affirmation that the coin has not been significantly "manipulated".
    So the actual grade number is not that important. Future buyers can bid accordingly based on what they see in the photos and be fairly confident on what they are bidding on without an in-person examination.

    But where would one get that type of affirmation without an in-person evaluation?

    .

    My point is, the present holder provides that, regardless of the assigned number.

    In other words ...
    Buyers of a coin such as this will want to grade it themselves anyway, and they will assign their own ranking to it compared to other examples (if any). And if it is already authenticated with a problem-free "straight grade", they can do that grading and ranking from photos.

    .

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2024 3:21PM

    Rarity points… seems that there should be some obvious limitations.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just looked at Coinfacts and other examples. The 45 looked similar so that was my guess. I know very little about these, but I figured it would get me in the ballpark.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is a great thread! 👍

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