Here's a 53-D five that is pre-Fairmont. PCGS 53 CAC
Brian, I believe this coin was formerly in your collection. I acquired it from DW in 2016?.
I don't hate the Fairmont look, it just that the name "Fairmont" is starting to have a negative response in the
market with the apparently never ending supply.
I believe @RYK owned that coin. I remember it but don’t recall owning it personally.
@sellitstore said:
Thirty to forty years ago, when I was more directly involved with several large auctioneers, numismatic and non >numismatic, I can remember hearing word of a huge hoard of gold in Venezuela. Some negotiations took place back >then but the coins didn't come north. I think that they finally have been sold. The excitement is fading and prices >are declining.
There was some posts here by someone with connections to Venezuela officials who was confident that Fairmont was largely of Venezuelan origins.
No proof, but plausible.
.
I have heard that the origin is Argentina, not Venezuela. The bank that owned them was considering sending them all to the smelter, until someone suggested that they should consider the potential collector value. I have seen two Fairmont branch-mint Classic-Head $5 Half Eagles that have "wheel marks" on them from when a rubber wheel from a modern counting machine did a burn-out across the face.
@sellitstore said:
Thirty to forty years ago, when I was more directly involved with several large auctioneers, numismatic and non >numismatic, I can remember hearing word of a huge hoard of gold in Venezuela. Some negotiations took place back >then but the coins didn't come north. I think that they finally have been sold. The excitement is fading and prices >are declining.
There was some posts here by someone with connections to Venezuela officials who was confident that Fairmont was largely of Venezuelan origins.
No proof, but plausible.
Dirty gold? THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
@PeakRarities said:
The one counterpoint to that is how the majority of the gold really does have it’s own “fairmont look”, which many >collectors are actually tired of. I likesd that this wasn’t the typical green-gold, but regardless, this caliber of >provenance on this coin being “repatriated” raises some questions…
Isn't that a POSITIVE, Peak ? Some have commented that the Fairmont coins, even if not the highest quality, have an authentic, non-altered surface look.....REAL gold...whatever that means.
BTW, Part 7 is now availabe at the DW blog. If you're like Chevy Chase and don't like Math , the last few blog posts have involved some intricate formulas and calculations.
Don't forget to go back to read ANYTHING on Fairmont at the DW Blog (I think it starts in 2018 or 2019 but picks up in 2022/23)....Parts 1-4 of the Guest Blogger/Richard Radick series are also very instructive.
@PeakRarities said:
The one counterpoint to that is how the majority of the gold really does have it’s own “fairmont look”, which many >collectors are actually tired of. I likesd that this wasn’t the typical green-gold, but regardless, this caliber of >provenance on this coin being “repatriated” raises some questions…
Peak, excellent point.
But that would only be for the graded & certified FAIRMONT COLLECTION coins....that may or may not be the case with the graded coins (without FAIRMONT on the label) and the raw, ungraded coins which comprises probably 95-97% of the hoard.
The Klunker Sale in Fall 2020 was thought to be possibly Fairmont coins, but commentaries since indicate probably not.
Of note....that sale had these scarce and semi-rare Saints in moderately high mint state: 1908-S Saint (4 coins), 1924-S Saint (8 coins), and the 1925-D Saint (1 coin).
Garrett, Winters, and others note the surge in overseas repatriated hoards coming in recent years. If we assume that 95-97% of the coins in Fairmont (and maybe other smaller collections) are basically just circulated bullion coins with minimal or no numismatic value...and that they were found about a decade ago (maybe accumulated in the 2014-2017 period).... then the near doubling in the price of gold probably is a reason why all this gold is coming out NOW as opposed to previous drops after the GFC (2008) or Euro Crisis (2011).
I talked to someone involved with the hoard. Fairmont was the hotel where the meeting happened to discuss selling the coins. Other firms are selling the coins also, but not using the Fairmont name. I was told there could be a million coins worth a billion dollars. The coins came from Venezuela.
@Coinobsessed said:
I talked to someone involved with the hoard. Fairmont was the hotel where the meeting happened to discuss selling the coins. Other firms are selling the coins also, but not using the Fairmont name. I was told there could be a million coins worth a billion dollars. The coins came from Venezuela.
I have heard the Venezuela rumor before - do you have anything to substantiate it?
True to the thread. Some of the Fairmont coins did not do too well the second time around. In particular, the $5 1864-S in 58 sold for $192k all in whereas it sold for $264k back in 4/22. That was the most significant drop in price that I saw. I followed closely the $5 1861-C. It's price was about 2k less that what is sold for back in 4/22.
Rare gold isn’t my specialty, but I imagine the market is pretty thin for that ‘64-s. Thin markets are volatile.
Assuming the players are the same, with the top bidder from the prior auction out, the under bidder is only competing with the second under bidder, who may have been willing to go much less far.
Also, the coin is no longer “fresh”, that’s important re: bidding psychology. And this second auction is against the backdrop of a continued flood of Fairmont coins, which introduces some risk another ‘64-s washes ashore.
Market context is different too. Short-term rates were still near zero in 4/22, and the 10y was 250bp lower. At 4.5%-5% interest on cash today, that’s a $10k/yr holding/opportunity cost for a $200k coin.
I expect that rewashed coins in thin markets that hammered only a few years ago will generally continue to fare worse.
@sellitstore said:
Thirty to forty years ago, when I was more directly involved with several large auctioneers, numismatic and non >numismatic, I can remember hearing word of a huge hoard of gold in Venezuela. Some negotiations took place back >then but the coins didn't come north. I think that they finally have been sold. The excitement is fading and prices >are declining.
There was some posts here by someone with connections to Venezuela officials who was confident that Fairmont was largely of Venezuelan origins.
No proof, but plausible.
.
I have heard that the origin is Argentina, not Venezuela. The bank that owned them was considering sending them all to the smelter, until someone suggested that they should consider the potential collector value. I have seen two Fairmont branch-mint Classic-Head $5 Half Eagles that have "wheel marks" on them from when a rubber wheel from a modern counting machine did a burn-out across the face.
I just saw Stacks has another batch selling in a February auction - I bet some people are happy they sold for numismatic value rather than melt (if those rumors/stories are correct).
What is the overall pct of CDN bid they (Fairmont material) realized after the juice? Do you think those sellers would have done better shopping them around the bourse at a show?
@earlyAurum said:
This is a very interesting discussion. The Fairmont coins amount to a massive increase in $20, $10 and $5 material.
Don't forget that for all the negatives about Fairmont...the LOOK of the coins..."original gold surfaces"...is a definite plus.
Lots of great posts a few weeks back...I would only say that you have to take into account DEMAND for all the population totals being impacted by new supply. If it's a Top Pop or Near Top Pop coin....and the price is very high.... the overall demand for that coin could be strong but not at $50,000 for an AU-58 or MS-65 or whatever.
As an example, I think the 1927-D Saint market could handle a Mystery Hoard of a 4-5 AU-58's for folks who want to complete a Registry Set on a budget. But 4-5 new 1927-D's in the MS-66 or MS-67 range would definitely depress pricing at the top end for that rare series.
@dcarr said:
I have heard that the origin is Argentina, not Venezuela. The bank that owned them was considering sending them >all to the smelter, until someone suggested that they should consider the potential collector value. I have seen two >Fairmont branch-mint Classic-Head $5 Half Eagles that have "wheel marks" on them from when a rubber wheel >from a modern counting machine did a burn-out across the face.
I could believe that. Record-keeping in many of these South and Central American countries/banks is very spotty, decades after everything went digital and computerized.
I'm just surprised that there are folks not aware that you could be losing a fortune by assuming coins or other ingots or bars are worth only bullion value. Many of those coins have sold for 10-50x their gold content. Smart decision not to just assume they had no numismatic value !
@originalisbest said:
Shades of 1903-O dollars (sorta.) I've enjoyed this discussion -- and grateful that the only gold coins I have are >strictly common dates!
With the 1903-O's....you had such a rarity that folks like David Bowers had never owned one after a decade of being in the busines. Population estimates were all over the map but most assumed survivorship was single-digits (< 10 coins). Maybe low single-digits.
Then...you literally had tens of thousands of high mint state coins available. Went from an ultra-rarity to super-common in the span of weeks.
@Coinobsessed said:
I talked to someone involved with the hoard. Fairmont was the hotel where the meeting happened to discuss >selling the coins. Other firms are selling the coins also, but not using the Fairmont name. I was told there could be a >million coins worth a billion dollars. The coins came from Venezuela.
Wow...that is interesting. The size of the hoard doesn't surprise me, DW's blog got the direction correct they were just low on the total.
Another individual with family ties to Venezuela said the same thing. Isn't proof...but 2 independent sources coming to the same country as the source is interesting.
@earlyAurum said:
This is a very interesting discussion. The Fairmont coins amount to a massive increase in $20, $10 and $5 material.
Don't forget that for all the negatives about Fairmont...the LOOK of the coins..."original gold surfaces"...is a definite plus.
Lots of great posts a few weeks back...I would only say that you have to take into account DEMAND for all the population totals being impacted by new supply. If it's a Top Pop or Near Top Pop coin....and the price is very high.... the overall demand for that coin could be strong but not at $50,000 for an AU-58 or MS-65 or whatever.
As an example, I think the 1927-D Saint market could handle a Mystery Hoard of a 4-5 AU-58's for folks who want to complete a Registry Set on a budget. But 4-5 new 1927-D's in the MS-66 or MS-67 range would definitely depress pricing at the top end for that rare series.
Not that I wish for this to happen, but it would be wild if say, 3,000 unc '27-D's came to light. As well as 10,000 1921's. I'm sure if that were to happen, somebody might try to let out a select few, and melt the remainder.
Comments
I believe @RYK owned that coin. I remember it but don’t recall owning it personally.
Latin American Collection
Shades of 1903-O dollars (sorta.) I've enjoyed this discussion -- and grateful that the only gold coins I have are strictly common dates!
.
I have heard that the origin is Argentina, not Venezuela. The bank that owned them was considering sending them all to the smelter, until someone suggested that they should consider the potential collector value. I have seen two Fairmont branch-mint Classic-Head $5 Half Eagles that have "wheel marks" on them from when a rubber wheel from a modern counting machine did a burn-out across the face.
.
Dirty gold?
THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Louisiana Purchase by the US from France. Seward’s Folly was the US purchasing Alaska from Russia.
Instances of Uncle Sam growing the geographical size of the USA by purchase and sale.
Isn't that a POSITIVE, Peak ? Some have commented that the Fairmont coins, even if not the highest quality, have an authentic, non-altered surface look.....REAL gold...whatever that means.
BTW, Part 7 is now availabe at the DW blog. If you're like Chevy Chase and don't like Math
, the last few blog posts have involved some intricate formulas and calculations.
Don't forget to go back to read ANYTHING on Fairmont at the DW Blog (I think it starts in 2018 or 2019 but picks up in 2022/23)....Parts 1-4 of the Guest Blogger/Richard Radick series are also very instructive.
Peak, excellent point.
But that would only be for the graded & certified FAIRMONT COLLECTION coins....that may or may not be the case with the graded coins (without FAIRMONT on the label) and the raw, ungraded coins which comprises probably 95-97% of the hoard.
The Klunker Sale in Fall 2020 was thought to be possibly Fairmont coins, but commentaries since indicate probably not.
Of note....that sale had these scarce and semi-rare Saints in moderately high mint state: 1908-S Saint (4 coins), 1924-S Saint (8 coins), and the 1925-D Saint (1 coin).
Garrett, Winters, and others note the surge in overseas repatriated hoards coming in recent years. If we assume that 95-97% of the coins in Fairmont (and maybe other smaller collections) are basically just circulated bullion coins with minimal or no numismatic value...and that they were found about a decade ago (maybe accumulated in the 2014-2017 period).... then the near doubling in the price of gold probably is a reason why all this gold is coming out NOW as opposed to previous drops after the GFC (2008) or Euro Crisis (2011).
I talked to someone involved with the hoard. Fairmont was the hotel where the meeting happened to discuss selling the coins. Other firms are selling the coins also, but not using the Fairmont name. I was told there could be a million coins worth a billion dollars. The coins came from Venezuela.
I have heard the Venezuela rumor before - do you have anything to substantiate it?
I talked to one of the distributors of the coins.
Conquistadors?
One of the very best Fairmont coins took a massive loss at the recent HA sale.
Latin American Collection
True to the thread. Some of the Fairmont coins did not do too well the second time around. In particular, the $5 1864-S in 58 sold for $192k all in whereas it sold for $264k back in 4/22. That was the most significant drop in price that I saw. I followed closely the $5 1861-C. It's price was about 2k less that what is sold for back in 4/22.
Rare gold isn’t my specialty, but I imagine the market is pretty thin for that ‘64-s. Thin markets are volatile.
Assuming the players are the same, with the top bidder from the prior auction out, the under bidder is only competing with the second under bidder, who may have been willing to go much less far.
Also, the coin is no longer “fresh”, that’s important re: bidding psychology. And this second auction is against the backdrop of a continued flood of Fairmont coins, which introduces some risk another ‘64-s washes ashore.
Market context is different too. Short-term rates were still near zero in 4/22, and the 10y was 250bp lower. At 4.5%-5% interest on cash today, that’s a $10k/yr holding/opportunity cost for a $200k coin.
I expect that rewashed coins in thin markets that hammered only a few years ago will generally continue to fare worse.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
.
And this just recently:
"New York Judge Loretta Preska has ordered Argentina to hand over information on the Central Bank’s gold reserves per a request filed by hedge fund Burford Capital in October.":
https://buenosairesherald.com/economics/ypf-case-argentina-ordered-to-reveal-location-of-central-bank-gold
Are the dots connecting ? ...
.
Both of these Fairmont coins sold for ~$41k two years ago.
I just saw Stacks has another batch selling in a February auction - I bet some people are happy they sold for numismatic value rather than melt (if those rumors/stories are correct).
What is the overall pct of CDN bid they (Fairmont material) realized after the juice? Do you think those sellers would have done better shopping them around the bourse at a show?
Don't forget that for all the negatives about Fairmont...the LOOK of the coins..."original gold surfaces"...is a definite plus.
Lots of great posts a few weeks back...I would only say that you have to take into account DEMAND for all the population totals being impacted by new supply. If it's a Top Pop or Near Top Pop coin....and the price is very high.... the overall demand for that coin could be strong but not at $50,000 for an AU-58 or MS-65 or whatever.
As an example, I think the 1927-D Saint market could handle a Mystery Hoard of a 4-5 AU-58's for folks who want to complete a Registry Set on a budget. But 4-5 new 1927-D's in the MS-66 or MS-67 range would definitely depress pricing at the top end for that rare series.
I could believe that. Record-keeping in many of these South and Central American countries/banks is very spotty, decades after everything went digital and computerized.
I'm just surprised that there are folks not aware that you could be losing a fortune by assuming coins or other ingots or bars are worth only bullion value. Many of those coins have sold for 10-50x their gold content. Smart decision not to just assume they had no numismatic value !
With the 1903-O's....you had such a rarity that folks like David Bowers had never owned one after a decade of being in the busines. Population estimates were all over the map but most assumed survivorship was single-digits (< 10 coins). Maybe low single-digits.
Then...you literally had tens of thousands of high mint state coins available. Went from an ultra-rarity to super-common in the span of weeks.
Wow...that is interesting. The size of the hoard doesn't surprise me, DW's blog got the direction correct they were just low on the total.
Another individual with family ties to Venezuela said the same thing. Isn't proof...but 2 independent sources coming to the same country as the source is interesting.
Not that I wish for this to happen, but it would be wild if say, 3,000 unc '27-D's came to light. As well as 10,000 1921's. I'm sure if that were to happen, somebody might try to let out a select few, and melt the remainder.
This DW article is 100% on Half-Eagles and Fairmont; other blog posts and articles have $5 gold weaved in.
https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2025/1/9/fairmont-half-eagle-survival