@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
Okay. Tell me why you think I'm wrong. There's no way the Fenton piece will ever get a 67 from a TPG. 65 with a green bean is as good as it's going to get. And please don't try to tell me that it could get a gold bean someday.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"67" means "superb gem" to me and just about every other collector of slabbed graded coins who is paying attention. The only "superb gem" 1933 DE known to exist is in the government's possession at this time and it's looking a lot like forever unless a deal can be made.
"67" with a gold bean? Stranger things have happened.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The government gets back a coin that they have wanted back so bad for decades, the so-called Farouk specimen of 1933 DE. The owner of the coin that the ex Farouk is being traded for gets the finest known 1933 DE. Another collector is able to acquire a historic 1933 DE, Izzy's pocket piece, the only 1933 DE that truly circulated. I mean, that coin did not get wear by being in a safety deposit box for decades, did it?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Suppose that someone here had one or knew of one. Is there anyone here who could be used to "place" the coin with another owner? Keep in mind that you would probably be talking about a large amount of cash unless you could provide valid cover for a wire transfer. There are a couple here that I would approach IF I had one to sell, but I'll keep them under wraps for now.
The federal government's position has been quite clear for almost 100 years, and they have stuck to it. Only a messy court case was able to result in the legalization of one coin.
The government is under no pressure to propose or accept any kind of deal such as those proposed here. In fact, any attempt to do so would almost certainly result in legal action since they assured the buyer of the one legal coin that it was, and would be, the only one.
Sure, a Member of Congress or a Senator could slip a provision to legalize them all into a bill. Sure, some compelling new evidence proving that some 1933 DEs were legally sold to the public could surface. Sure, some future lawsuit could succeed in overturning the government's claims on these coins. Anything could theoretically happen. But it's all just wild fantasy and speculation.
@JBK said:
This thread is descending into nonsense.
The federal government's position has been quite clear for almost 100 years, and they have stuck to it. Only a messy court case was able to result in the legalization of one coin.
The government is under no pressure to propose or accept any kind of deal such as those proposed here. In fact, any attempt to do so would almost certainly result in legal action since they assured the buyer of the one legal coin that it was, and would be, the only one.
Sure, a Member of Congress or a Senator could slip a provision to legalize them all into a bill. Sure, some compelling new evidence proving that some 1933 DEs were legally sold to the public could surface. Sure, some future lawsuit could succeed in overturning the government's claims on these coins. Anything could theoretically happen. But it's all just wild fantasy and speculation.
You had me at "This thread is descending into nonsense." I agree and think it's a shame.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JBK said:
This thread is descending into nonsense.
The federal government's position has been quite clear for almost 100 years, and they have stuck to it. Only a messy court case was able to result in the legalization of one coin.
The government is under no pressure to propose or accept any kind of deal such as those proposed here. In fact, any attempt to do so would almost certainly result in legal action since they assured the buyer of the one legal coin that it was, and would be, the only one.
Sure, a Member of Congress or a Senator could slip a provision to legalize them all into a bill. Sure, some compelling new evidence proving that some 1933 DEs were legally sold to the public could surface. Sure, some future lawsuit could succeed in overturning the government's claims on these coins. Anything could theoretically happen. But it's all just wild fantasy and speculation.
You had me at "This thread is descending into nonsense." I agree and think it's a shame.
Read and try to understand what you want and dismiss the rest is what I try to do. Labelling this thread as having "descended into nonsense" is not useful. btw, I have yet to see "Agree" from anyone other than you. An "official" Agree is in order?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
What I would really like to see is the government declaring that they erred by confiscating Langbord's 1933 DE's and give them back to Langbord. The government failed to prove it's case, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@BAJJERFAN said:
Suppose that someone here had one or knew of one. Is there anyone here who could be used to "place" the coin with another owner? Keep in mind that you would probably be talking about a large amount of cash unless you could provide valid cover for a wire transfer. There are a couple here that I would approach IF I had one to sell, but I'll keep them under wraps for now.
Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't want to own a coin that I fear would be confiscated. Get the piece authenticated/graded by a TPG even though it is not legal to own? Good luck on that one.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
Okay. Tell me why you think I'm wrong. There's no way the Fenton piece will ever get a 67 from a TPG. 65 with a green bean is as good as it's going to get. And please don't try to tell me that it could get a gold bean someday.
You buy a unicorn, you don't want to trade it for the prettiest goat in the herd.
@JBK said:
This thread is descending into nonsense.
The federal government's position has been quite clear for almost 100 years, and they have stuck to it. Only a messy court case was able to result in the legalization of one coin.
The government is under no pressure to propose or accept any kind of deal such as those proposed here. In fact, any attempt to do so would almost certainly result in legal action since they assured the buyer of the one legal coin that it was, and would be, the only one.
Sure, a Member of Congress or a Senator could slip a provision to legalize them all into a bill. Sure, some compelling new evidence proving that some 1933 DEs were legally sold to the public could surface. Sure, some future lawsuit could succeed in overturning the government's claims on these coins. Anything could theoretically happen. But it's all just wild fantasy and speculation.
You had me at "This thread is descending into nonsense." I agree and think it's a shame.
It's really only one person who keeps making up more and more outlandish tales.
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
Okay. Tell me why you think I'm wrong. There's no way the Fenton piece will ever get a 67 from a TPG. 65 with a green bean is as good as it's going to get. And please don't try to tell me that it could get a gold bean someday.
You buy a unicorn, you don't want to trade it for the prettiest goat in the herd.
You are comparing the only 1933 DE that's legal to own to a unicorn. That is rich. The bottom line is that Fenton's 1933 DE is not the finest known to exist.Twenty-million dollar coin = unicorn. FinerFinest example 1933 DE=prettiest goat in the herd. Got it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
Would that 67 be market graded or deal graded?
The deal, as envisioned by me, would allow for a preferred TPG grading expert, maybe a small team of experts, to be on hand making indications as to what grade the TPG (PCGS) would give to the various pieces as they are being examined by the client. And get it in writing for assurance. We already know that a PCGS MS 67 is a bigger deal in the marketplace than any other TPG's MS 67. PCGS MS 67 is the target grade. You know the new coin would CAC, at least green. Furthermore, it could be designated on the holder as Finest Known and "the market" would be forced to accept that finding as the gospel. Voila! $20M coin instantly becomes a potential $25M, maybe $30M coin.
My feeling is that Izzy's lightly circulated pocket piece '33 would fetch at least $5M, maybe $10M if the right buyers start duking it out at auction.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
Okay. Tell me why you think I'm wrong. There's no way the Fenton piece will ever get a 67 from a TPG. 65 with a green bean is as good as it's going to get. And please don't try to tell me that it could get a gold bean someday.
You buy a unicorn, you don't want to trade it for the prettiest goat in the herd.
You are comparing the only 1933 DE that's legal to own to a unicorn. That is rich. The bottom line is that Fenton's 1933 DE is not the finest known to exist.Twenty-million dollar coin = unicorn. FinerFinest example 1933 DE=prettiest goat in the herd. Got it.
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
Would that 67 be market graded or deal graded?
The deal, as envisioned by me, would allow for a preferred TPG grading expert, maybe a small team of experts, to be on hand making indications as to what grade the TPG (PCGS) would give to the various pieces as they are being examined by the client. And get it in writing for assurance. We already know that a PCGS MS 67 is a bigger deal in the marketplace than any other TPG's MS 67. PCGS MS 67 is the target grade. You know the new coin would CAC, at least green. Furthermore, it could be designated on the holder as Finest Known and "the market" would be forced to accept that finding as the gospel. Voila! $20M coin instantly becomes a potential $25M, maybe $30M coin.
My feeling is that Izzy's lightly circulated pocket piece '33 would fetch at least $5M, maybe $10M if the right buyers start duking it out at auction.
You’re posts are fantasy, nothing approaching reasonable speculation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
@mr1931S said:
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
Would that 67 be market graded or deal graded?
The deal, as envisioned by me, would allow for a preferred TPG grading expert, maybe a small team of experts, to be on hand making indications as to what grade the TPG (PCGS) would give to the various pieces as they are being examined by the client. And get it in writing for assurance. We already know that a PCGS MS 67 is a bigger deal in the marketplace than any other TPG's MS 67. PCGS MS 67 is the target grade. You know the new coin would CAC, at least green. Furthermore, it could be designated on the holder as Finest Known and "the market" would be forced to accept that finding as the gospel. Voila! $20M coin instantly becomes a potential $25M, maybe $30M coin.
My feeling is that Izzy's lightly circulated pocket piece '33 would fetch at least $5M, maybe $10M if the right buyers start duking it out at auction.
You’re posts are fantasy, nothing approaching reasonable speculation.
Yeah man, my imagination takes me to some really groovy places. The biggest hurdle would be to get the government to listen to details of a proposed deal,provided that the owner of the ex Farouk piece is amenable to a deal of course, a trade of the ex Farouk for any one of the ten ex Langbords. As far as the government would be concerned it's gold for gold. They did it for Israel Switt, a jeweler in Philadelphia, all the time. Gold for gold. Nobody's going to know what the government thinks about trading a gold 1933 DE straight across for a different gold 1933 DE until the government is asked.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally....
Long shot certainly, but the ___Langbord ___decisions do not forever and conclusively close the door as a matter of law on someone trying again in the future.
The Langbord Decisions were by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and are binding only on courts within that Circuit (Pennsylvania, NJ, DE). The Supreme Court declined review. Although "persuasive" those decisions are not binding on courts outside the Third Circuit. The same, or new, evidence could be presented if this issue was to arise again in a different geographic area with the potential for a very different result. The single coin monetization agreement would likely not be effective against a subsequent litigant who, theoretically, might be found to be in lawful possession.
Unlikely result, but not legally impossible.
Disclaimer: I have no theory on how they can to be outside the Mint!
It was @mr1931S who wrote “Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally....”.
Personally, I’d love to see the unlikely, but not legally impossible result in the scenario you brought up.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on. Look at the big picture is what I tried to do after reading Tripp's book. My belief is that no 1933 coins were ever available for purchase or trade at the public window. That's not to say that some 1933 coins weren't lifted while inside the Mint's walls, the '33 being lifted replaced with a pocketed common date like a '28. The act of substituting a few '33's for '28's or some other common date DE is how I think the '33's left the mint. Is Switt telling us through his pocketpiece that the '33 DEs he eventually acquired all left the mint in one or more employee pockets? A reasonable argument could be made that trading gold in this fashion by an employee for an equal amount of gold is not theft. Employee walks into the Mint with a '28 DE in one baggy pocket of the trousers that were the style in those days and leaves at the end of the day with a '33. Does the Mint really care about the date on the coins it makes? The pictures I saw of the storage vaults with their bags of Double Eagles, 250 to the bag, stacked on top of one another showed no markings on the outside of the bags indicating the date of the coins contained therein.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
OK, but hasn’t Tripp’s bias been the subject of some note?
Rather than starting out with the intent of being objective my impression is that he started out with a premise to support and thus ignored some persuasive arguments that were being made contrary to those predetermined views.
@mr1931S said:
In addition to the the ex Farouk piece in private hands, i think there could be a whole bag of '33's, face value $5000 that was stolen. When the great melt of 1933 Double Eagles happened in 1937, there could have been a bag of 1928's mixed in with the 1933's to be melted. The '28's came from a theft of a bag of 250 of them, face value $5000, from the Mint's vaults sometime prior to 1937 but after 1933. The crime was never solved.
I've been fascinated by that stolen bag of 1928's -- partly because the dust disturbance was alongside bags of 1933's -- but I never heard that the bag would have contained anything but 1928 DE's. It is unlikely that any bag in the huge vaults in the Philadelphia Mint would have been "mixed."
Coins at the Cashier, or Assay Department -- yeah, possibly.
I do believe Roger Burdette's scenario of 43 1933's being used to balance the count in a defective run of 1932's was possible/probable.
@mr1931S said:
The timing of the theft of the '28s ( a major theft that shockingly was not vigorously investigated as to who did it) relative to the timing of the melting of the '33s is suspect. The government declared that no 1933 gold was found to be missing after the great melt in '37. Of course there wasn't any gold found missing from 1933 DE production. The stolen 1933 pieces had been replaced with coins from the theft of a bag of common '28s from the Mint vault. My belief is that Switt acquired the 1933 dated pieces (about 20) that he did around 1936 and they were part of a larger group that had been stolen from the mint earlier. Where the rest of the '33s that escaped the melting pot are or what happened with them is anybody's guess.
There was no missing gold so you are correct that the 1933's were not "stolen."
But this notion that an entire bag of 1928's -- 250 or $5,000 worth -- was stolen to swap out some 1933's doesn't add up. If Switt or whoever got 25 1933's out of the Philly Mint -- the best estimate -- their market value in 1937 was at MOST $2,500 and probably less. Nobody knew they were valuable and should sell at a premium until a few years later.
The bag of 1928's was worth $5,000 and the 25 1933's was worth anywhere from $1,250 - $2,500.
ANY gold coins -- even Liberty Head DEs -- could have been swapped for the 1933's. You didn't need to steal a bag of 1928's -- 250 count -- for the (estimated) 25 1933's that appear to have gotten out.
@JBK said:
You almost make it sound like two bags were "stolen" but it seems that one bag of 1928 was stolen and substituted for a bag of 1933. Or, just one bag of 1933 was really stolen and the 1928 was just shuffled around inside the vault to cover their tracks. In any case, did the Mint or Treasury really segregate coins by date once they went into inventory? The 1933 DEs weren't issued, but they were all illegal to own/issue soon enough (except for exempted gold coins already in private hands, of course). When it came to melting, did they really care what dates they were?
Coins were segregated in the vaults because the surplus bags tended to go to the same area. But a few bags here or there could be moved because of space reasons.
RWB's Saint-Gaudens book goes into this in lots of detail. While the bags were stacked nicely, the vaults were overflowing....bags were wedged here and there....and some bags opened up with loose coins (!) strewn on the floor.
The vaults were locked and sealed and procedures were in place such that you needed multiple high-ranking people to access it. Someone really screwed up because the Mint Superintendent, Edwin Dressel, was on the hook PERSONALLY for the $5,000.
They researched the theft, but whoever did it really covered their tracks. It sure does look like the Secret Service, Treasury, and Mint really went hard after a few gold bugs like Israel Switt for a few dozen 1933's (no gold missing) and basically focused on legislation to absolve Dressel (innocent for sure) of personal liability for the missing $5,000 in gold. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of an investigation into the stolen 1928's as the vault was sealed and locked and the count was $5,000 higher than what would be found a few years later after the seal and lock were opened and the bags re-counted. In short....NO leads. NO trail.
A few Saints or even a few dozen Saints, I can see getting smuggled out. But an entire bag -- 250 coins -- weighing 20-30 pounds ? You can't sneak that in a pocket....if you do, you're talking 15-20 runs to get them all out.
You can read about the stolen 1928's in this auction from HA in a write-up by RWB himself:
I always wondered how many 1933 DE are currently stored in any Swiss bank's vaults. I have no knowledge of any being stored but if i was a betting man, I would bet there are a few. Come to think about it, I wonder how many other "goodies" are stored in Switzerland.........
@EastonCollection said:
I always wondered how many 1933 DE are currently stored in any Swiss bank's vaults. I have no knowledge of any being stored but if i was a betting man, I would bet there are a few. Come to think about it, I wonder how many other "goodies" are stored in Switzerland.........
Since they were never released through the cashier, there should be zero in Swiss vaults. This is baseless speculation. All examples found were in numismatic hands. Dealers of the time did have back door access to the Mint's which is likely how they got out. Why would there be any in Swiss bullion holdings?
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on. Look at the big picture is what I tried to do after reading Tripp's book. My belief is that no 1933 coins were ever available for purchase or trade at the public window. That's not to say that some 1933 coins weren't lifted while inside the Mint's walls, the '33 being lifted replaced with a pocketed common date like a '28. The act of substituting a few '33's for '28's or some other common date DE is how I think the '33's left the mint. Is Switt telling us through his pocketpiece that the '33 DEs he eventually acquired all left the mint in one or more employee pockets? A reasonable argument could be made that trading gold in this fashion by an employee for an equal amount of gold is not theft. Employee walks into the Mint with a '28 DE in one baggy pocket of the trousers that were the style in those days and leaves at the end of the day with a '33. Does the Mint really care about the date on the coins it makes? The pictures I saw of the storage vaults with their bags of Double Eagles, 250 to the bag, stacked on top of one another showed no markings on the outside of the bags indicating the date of the coins contained therein.
That sounds quite different from your previous post:
“Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@mr1931S said:
In addition to the the ex Farouk piece in private hands, i think there could be a whole bag of '33's, face value $5000 that was stolen. When the great melt of 1933 Double Eagles happened in 1937, there could have been a bag of 1928's mixed in with the 1933's to be melted. The '28's came from a theft of a bag of 250 of them, face value $5000, from the Mint's vaults sometime prior to 1937 but after 1933. The crime was never solved.
I've been fascinated by that stolen bag of 1928's -- partly because the dust disturbance was alongside bags of 1933's -- but I never heard that the bag would have contained anything but 1928 DE's. It is unlikely that any bag in the huge vaults in the Philadelphia Mint would have been "mixed."
Coins at the Cashier, or Assay Department -- yeah, possibly.
I do believe Roger Burdette's scenario of 43 1933's being used to balance the count in a defective run of 1932's was possible/probable.
Unfortunately, that scenario never got the attention it probably should have gotten.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on. Look at the big picture is what I tried to do after reading Tripp's book. My belief is that no 1933 coins were ever available for purchase or trade at the public window. That's not to say that some 1933 coins weren't lifted while inside the Mint's walls, the '33 being lifted replaced with a pocketed common date like a '28. The act of substituting a few '33's for '28's or some other common date DE is how I think the '33's left the mint. Is Switt telling us through his pocketpiece that the '33 DEs he eventually acquired all left the mint in one or more employee pockets? A reasonable argument could be made that trading gold in this fashion by an employee for an equal amount of gold is not theft. Employee walks into the Mint with a '28 DE in one baggy pocket of the trousers that were the style in those days and leaves at the end of the day with a '33. Does the Mint really care about the date on the coins it makes? The pictures I saw of the storage vaults with their bags of Double Eagles, 250 to the bag, stacked on top of one another showed no markings on the outside of the bags indicating the date of the coins contained therein.
That sounds quite different from your previous post:
“Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.”
Have I made a false statement with "noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally"? Would a Mint employee's act of substituting the old gold coin in his pocket for a new one of equal value constitute a theft in 1933? Was permission quietly granted to some of the more trusted employees to help themselves to examples of a new issue as long as they could cover the substitution with another coin legally owned by the employee? What do you think was the mindset of top officials at the 1933 Mint regarding theft by employees?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on. Look at the big picture is what I tried to do after reading Tripp's book. My belief is that no 1933 coins were ever available for purchase or trade at the public window. That's not to say that some 1933 coins weren't lifted while inside the Mint's walls, the '33 being lifted replaced with a pocketed common date like a '28. The act of substituting a few '33's for '28's or some other common date DE is how I think the '33's left the mint. Is Switt telling us through his pocketpiece that the '33 DEs he eventually acquired all left the mint in one or more employee pockets? A reasonable argument could be made that trading gold in this fashion by an employee for an equal amount of gold is not theft. Employee walks into the Mint with a '28 DE in one baggy pocket of the trousers that were the style in those days and leaves at the end of the day with a '33. Does the Mint really care about the date on the coins it makes? The pictures I saw of the storage vaults with their bags of Double Eagles, 250 to the bag, stacked on top of one another showed no markings on the outside of the bags indicating the date of the coins contained therein.
That sounds quite different from your previous post:
“Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.”
Have I made a false statement with "noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally"? Would a Mint employee's act of substituting the old gold coin in his pocket for a new one of equal value constitute a theft in 1933? Was permission quietly granted to some of the more trusted employees to help themselves to examples of a new issue as long as they could cover the substitution with another coin legally owned by the employee? What do you think was the mindset of top officials at the 1933 Mint regarding theft by employees?
Read YOUR last few posts that I quoted. One of them talks about “thieves” and “stealing”. Two others mention substituting coins of equal value (which at that time wouldn’t amount to theft). Make up your mind.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wasn't USG's statement that the 1933DEs were never monetized and thus never released? HOW they got into somebody's hands is irrelevant, they are still stolen goods.
Now if you were an innocent purchaser, you might have a claim against your seller. That person, if equally innocent, has a claim back against whomever they purchased from... back to the person(s) who committed the illegal act, and they've got nothing.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@BStrauss3 said:
Wasn't USG's statement that the 1933DEs were never monetized and thus never released? HOW they got into somebody's hands is irrelevant, they are still stolen goods.
Now if you were an innocent purchaser, you might have a claim against your seller. That person, if equally innocent, has a claim back against whomever they purchased from... back to the person(s) who committed the illegal act, and they've got nothing.
Supposedly, “monetized” wasn’t even a word which was used at that time and was made up after the fact Also, many highly knowledgeable numismatists believe that based on long-standing practices during that time, if $20’s of different dates had been exchanged/traded/substituted, it wouldn’t have constituted theft. So how the coins got into someone’s hands would be highly relevant.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@1northcoin said:
OK, but hasn’t Tripp’s bias been the subject of some note? Rather than starting out with the intent of being >objective my impression is that he started out with a premise to >support and thus ignored some persuasive >arguments that were being made contrary to those predetermined views.
Bingo...Tripp was given favorable treatment by the trial judge while RWB was not (not sure how QDB was treated but I doubt he was happy with the rules, either). Reminds me of some other high-profile cases over the years where the deck was stacked and the judge steered a decision.
Tripp didn't even know about the Froman Letter yet wanted to be considered an expert. And quite frankly, how much activity/work does a numismatist get working at Sotheby's ? It's not like he was working at HA or SB.
@Rexford said:
What happens if one of these is sold/owned outside of the US? Does a foreign auction house have free reign to sell one?
That depends on what the State Department would want to do. It could be quite political. Whoever won the auction, if it got that far would never dare to bring it to the United States.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@CopperLad said:
I have often wondered what the market price is for the Secret 1933’s.
10% of the Farouk 1933? 50%?
Selling into a small market, but million dollar coins always sell into a small market.
A government attorney who helped craft the deal for the ex Farouk '33 to be legally owned is on the record as saying the ex Farouk coin will forever be the only 1933 Double Eagle legal to own privately. The government is now in possession of twelve 1933 Double Eagles and it looks a lot like none of them will ever be sold. Ever.
I hope the coins held by the government eventually do hit the market. Seasons change.
I still wonder what the price is for any unknown 1933’s.
After I win the lottery, I might find out.
That will never happen. Once the government won the court cases, the fate of those coins was sealed.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The $20 1933 DEs probably would have sold for about $30 (tops) if they had undergone a normal release. Once the entire run was struck after the May striking....they probably would have sold for a bit more IF it was known that very few (or none) had been released.
The problem was that NOBODY knew for sure at the time in the collecting world how many had gotten out in 1933 (probably none) or even by 1937 (probably 25, all from Israel Switt). So the premium on the coins was nice -- probably $50 - $150 -- but not anything approaching the 1924-S where the expectation was there might only be 3 of the coins (so presumably collectors/dealers thought there were more than 3 of the 1933's circulating even before 1937).
Collectors/dealers probably ASSUMED that a few coins were released in March/April 1933, but in fact NONE had gotten out. That wouldn't be known for years.
You wonder if the Treasury/Mint's obsession with the 1933's was in part motivated by their blunder with the entire bag of stolen 1928's.
Of course, the 1933's were NOT stolen -- 25 ounces of gold wasn't missing. The whole thing was that the gold collectors were despised personally AND politically by folks in government who were tracking the "stolen" 1933's. They knew that the 1933's (by this time) were worth about $500 - $1,000. For the folks in the Secret Service or Treasury or Mint...that was about 6 months of salary. They didn't think these guys who maybe "paid" $20 via exchange were entitled to a 30-fold windfall.
If by some chance nobody wanted 1933 DEs and the premium on them was $30 tops, I doubt the Treasury or Secret Service cares and goes after them.
@mr1931S said:
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on.
Haven't read it but I'll take your word for it. I have seen the information in short-form from the detailed sales stuff put out by Sotheby's which was prepared by Tripp.
However, 2 simple questions show that Tripp wasn't as meticulous as other researchers of this time period (RWB, QDB, and RWJ come to mind):
First, he didn't know about the Froman Letter of early-1933 which permitted coin-for-coin exchanges. Second, he didn't address the fact that if the coins were "stolen" there had to be a shortfall in the gold ounces and there was NO shortfall.
Clearly, an exchange took place at some point (maybe 1933/34 but most likely 1937). The government's obsession is clearly tied to the fact that the coins appreciated from 1933 to 1937 and again up to 1944 and beyond when they actually started to be found and tracked down and confiscated. If the 1933's were being loaded up for melting in 1937 and it was known that there was only a miniscule premium on them, I doubt if anybody would have cared if a staffer had taken 10 older DE coins and asked for 10 new 1933s once the bag(s) were opened.
This entire "no 1933's were released" is a result of the coins being worth 25-50x face value once it became clear that there weren't as many circulating (legally) as previously thought. The other coins at the top of the rarity lists were the 1924-S, 1926-D, and 1926-S. The 1933 didn't really stand out until after 1944.
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally....
Long shot certainly, but the ___Langbord ___decisions do not forever and conclusively close the door as a matter of law on someone trying again in the future.
The Langbord Decisions were by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and are binding only on courts within that Circuit (Pennsylvania, NJ, DE). The Supreme Court declined review. Although "persuasive" those decisions are not binding on courts outside the Third Circuit. The same, or new, evidence could be presented if this issue was to arise again in a different geographic area with the potential for a very different result. The single coin monetization agreement would likely not be effective against a subsequent litigant who, theoretically, might be found to be in lawful possession.
Unlikely result, but not legally impossible.
Disclaimer: I have no theory on how they can to be outside the Mint!
It was @mr1931S who wrote “Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally....”.
Personally, I’d love to see the unlikely, but not legally impossible result in the scenario you brought up.
I would too. I forced myself to read some of the Langbord pleadings and I found myself thinking that the Langbords' narrative could have been framed more simply and persuasively, with more relatable experts. Imho, anything could happen in a redo somewhere else.
Comments
Okay. Tell me why you think I'm wrong. There's no way the Fenton piece will ever get a 67 from a TPG. 65 with a green bean is as good as it's going to get. And please don't try to tell me that it could get a gold bean someday.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
"67" means "superb gem" to me and just about every other collector of slabbed graded coins who is paying attention. The only "superb gem" 1933 DE known to exist is in the government's possession at this time and it's looking a lot like forever unless a deal can be made.
"67" with a gold bean? Stranger things have happened.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The government gets back a coin that they have wanted back so bad for decades, the so-called Farouk specimen of 1933 DE. The owner of the coin that the ex Farouk is being traded for gets the finest known 1933 DE. Another collector is able to acquire a historic 1933 DE, Izzy's pocket piece, the only 1933 DE that truly circulated. I mean, that coin did not get wear by being in a safety deposit box for decades, did it?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Would that 67 be market graded or deal graded?
Suppose that someone here had one or knew of one. Is there anyone here who could be used to "place" the coin with another owner? Keep in mind that you would probably be talking about a large amount of cash unless you could provide valid cover for a wire transfer. There are a couple here that I would approach IF I had one to sell, but I'll keep them under wraps for now.
This thread is descending into nonsense.
The federal government's position has been quite clear for almost 100 years, and they have stuck to it. Only a messy court case was able to result in the legalization of one coin.
The government is under no pressure to propose or accept any kind of deal such as those proposed here. In fact, any attempt to do so would almost certainly result in legal action since they assured the buyer of the one legal coin that it was, and would be, the only one.
Sure, a Member of Congress or a Senator could slip a provision to legalize them all into a bill. Sure, some compelling new evidence proving that some 1933 DEs were legally sold to the public could surface. Sure, some future lawsuit could succeed in overturning the government's claims on these coins. Anything could theoretically happen. But it's all just wild fantasy and speculation.
You had me at "This thread is descending into nonsense." I agree and think it's a shame.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Read and try to understand what you want and dismiss the rest is what I try to do. Labelling this thread as having "descended into nonsense" is not useful. btw, I have yet to see "Agree" from anyone other than you. An "official" Agree is in order?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
What I would really like to see is the government declaring that they erred by confiscating Langbord's 1933 DE's and give them back to Langbord. The government failed to prove it's case, in my opinion.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Speaking for myself only, I wouldn't want to own a coin that I fear would be confiscated. Get the piece authenticated/graded by a TPG even though it is not legal to own? Good luck on that one.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You buy a unicorn, you don't want to trade it for the prettiest goat in the herd.
It's really only one person who keeps making up more and more outlandish tales.
You are comparing the only 1933 DE that's legal to own to a unicorn. That is rich. The bottom line is that Fenton's 1933 DE is not the finest known to exist.Twenty-million dollar coin = unicorn. FinerFinest example 1933 DE=prettiest goat in the herd. Got it.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I was under the impression that the 1933's that the Government had (including the Eliasberg specimen) were summarily destroyed after seizure.
This does not, of course, include the Langbord specimens.
Pete
The deal, as envisioned by me, would allow for a preferred TPG grading expert, maybe a small team of experts, to be on hand making indications as to what grade the TPG (PCGS) would give to the various pieces as they are being examined by the client. And get it in writing for assurance. We already know that a PCGS MS 67 is a bigger deal in the marketplace than any other TPG's MS 67. PCGS MS 67 is the target grade. You know the new coin would CAC, at least green. Furthermore, it could be designated on the holder as Finest Known and "the market" would be forced to accept that finding as the gospel. Voila! $20M coin instantly becomes a potential $25M, maybe $30M coin.
My feeling is that Izzy's lightly circulated pocket piece '33 would fetch at least $5M, maybe $10M if the right buyers start duking it out at auction.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
We are talking about a coin that is unique in private hands. It is, as a result, the finest known example that can be legally owned.
The feds don't need to concern themselves with a TPG's opinion or whose coin grades highest.
Great. Glad I could help.
It’s the 10 Langbord examples that are being discussed, not the others that were seized and destroyed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You’re posts are fantasy, nothing approaching reasonable speculation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If we could steer this conversation back towards how the coins originally got out...
I was always under the impression that at least some coins were available at the Mint Cashier's window, or something like that, and dealers familiar with the staff could buy them at face value just as they might do for any other previous year. Perhaps the prohibition on issuing the coins wasn't confirmed before several examples left the Mint and no one thought it was going to become a serious problem.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
Yeah man, my imagination takes me to some really groovy places. The biggest hurdle would be to get the government to listen to details of a proposed deal,provided that the owner of the ex Farouk piece is amenable to a deal of course, a trade of the ex Farouk for any one of the ten ex Langbords. As far as the government would be concerned it's gold for gold. They did it for Israel Switt, a jeweler in Philadelphia, all the time. Gold for gold. Nobody's going to know what the government thinks about trading a gold 1933 DE straight across for a different gold 1933 DE until the government is asked.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
No one has been able to establish as a fact that the coins left the Mint illegally either. And you’re continuing with speculation, now stating it as fact in your story. You don’t know who did what, who knew what or who thought what.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
.
It was @mr1931S who wrote “Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally....”.
Personally, I’d love to see the unlikely, but not legally impossible result in the scenario you brought up.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It simply isn't a MS65 either.
My Saint Set
David Tripp's well-researched book, Illegal Tender, has some very keen observations that compel one who reads his book to put the thinking cap on. Look at the big picture is what I tried to do after reading Tripp's book. My belief is that no 1933 coins were ever available for purchase or trade at the public window. That's not to say that some 1933 coins weren't lifted while inside the Mint's walls, the '33 being lifted replaced with a pocketed common date like a '28. The act of substituting a few '33's for '28's or some other common date DE is how I think the '33's left the mint. Is Switt telling us through his pocketpiece that the '33 DEs he eventually acquired all left the mint in one or more employee pockets? A reasonable argument could be made that trading gold in this fashion by an employee for an equal amount of gold is not theft. Employee walks into the Mint with a '28 DE in one baggy pocket of the trousers that were the style in those days and leaves at the end of the day with a '33. Does the Mint really care about the date on the coins it makes? The pictures I saw of the storage vaults with their bags of Double Eagles, 250 to the bag, stacked on top of one another showed no markings on the outside of the bags indicating the date of the coins contained therein.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
OK, but hasn’t Tripp’s bias been the subject of some note?
Rather than starting out with the intent of being objective my impression is that he started out with a premise to support and thus ignored some persuasive arguments that were being made contrary to those predetermined views.
No, Treasury or CFIUS or another agency would probably do what happened with the Norweb's and the Farouk Sale in the 1950's and put a claim in.
I've been fascinated by that stolen bag of 1928's -- partly because the dust disturbance was alongside bags of 1933's -- but I never heard that the bag would have contained anything but 1928 DE's. It is unlikely that any bag in the huge vaults in the Philadelphia Mint would have been "mixed."
Coins at the Cashier, or Assay Department -- yeah, possibly.
I do believe Roger Burdette's scenario of 43 1933's being used to balance the count in a defective run of 1932's was possible/probable.
There was no missing gold so you are correct that the 1933's were not "stolen."
But this notion that an entire bag of 1928's -- 250 or $5,000 worth -- was stolen to swap out some 1933's doesn't add up. If Switt or whoever got 25 1933's out of the Philly Mint -- the best estimate -- their market value in 1937 was at MOST $2,500 and probably less. Nobody knew they were valuable and should sell at a premium until a few years later.
The bag of 1928's was worth $5,000 and the 25 1933's was worth anywhere from $1,250 - $2,500.
ANY gold coins -- even Liberty Head DEs -- could have been swapped for the 1933's. You didn't need to steal a bag of 1928's -- 250 count -- for the (estimated) 25 1933's that appear to have gotten out.
Coins were segregated in the vaults because the surplus bags tended to go to the same area. But a few bags here or there could be moved because of space reasons.
RWB's Saint-Gaudens book goes into this in lots of detail. While the bags were stacked nicely, the vaults were overflowing....bags were wedged here and there....and some bags opened up with loose coins (!) strewn on the floor.
The vaults were locked and sealed and procedures were in place such that you needed multiple high-ranking people to access it. Someone really screwed up because the Mint Superintendent, Edwin Dressel, was on the hook PERSONALLY for the $5,000.
They researched the theft, but whoever did it really covered their tracks. It sure does look like the Secret Service, Treasury, and Mint really went hard after a few gold bugs like Israel Switt for a few dozen 1933's (no gold missing) and basically focused on legislation to absolve Dressel (innocent for sure) of personal liability for the missing $5,000 in gold. There doesn't appear to be much in the way of an investigation into the stolen 1928's as the vault was sealed and locked and the count was $5,000 higher than what would be found a few years later after the seal and lock were opened and the bags re-counted. In short....NO leads. NO trail.
A few Saints or even a few dozen Saints, I can see getting smuggled out. But an entire bag -- 250 coins -- weighing 20-30 pounds ? You can't sneak that in a pocket....if you do, you're talking 15-20 runs to get them all out.
You can read about the stolen 1928's in this auction from HA in a write-up by RWB himself:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/-5-000-mint-bag-for-1928-saint-gaudens-double-eagles/a/1166-4647.s
One of the coins was graded MS-66. And EC's 1933 has a CAC sticker.
No word yet on a cross to CACG.......
I always wondered how many 1933 DE are currently stored in any Swiss bank's vaults. I have no knowledge of any being stored but if i was a betting man, I would bet there are a few. Come to think about it, I wonder how many other "goodies" are stored in Switzerland.........
Since they were never released through the cashier, there should be zero in Swiss vaults. This is baseless speculation. All examples found were in numismatic hands. Dealers of the time did have back door access to the Mint's which is likely how they got out. Why would there be any in Swiss bullion holdings?
That sounds quite different from your previous post:
“Noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally. It was 1933. America was in the depths of the Great Depression. Some person or persons there at that time saw a golden opportunity to steal when they learned that the 1933 DE's that had already been struck, 445,500 of them, would not be released into the channels of commerce. The thief or thieves had an opportunity in those times to cash in with well-heeled collectors of the day and cash in they did.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Unfortunately, that scenario never got the attention it probably should have gotten.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Have I made a false statement with "noone has ever been able to establish as a fact that any 1933 DE's left the mint legally"? Would a Mint employee's act of substituting the old gold coin in his pocket for a new one of equal value constitute a theft in 1933? Was permission quietly granted to some of the more trusted employees to help themselves to examples of a new issue as long as they could cover the substitution with another coin legally owned by the employee? What do you think was the mindset of top officials at the 1933 Mint regarding theft by employees?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Read YOUR last few posts that I quoted. One of them talks about “thieves” and “stealing”. Two others mention substituting coins of equal value (which at that time wouldn’t amount to theft). Make up your mind.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The only nonsense i can find in this thread is “ the government”.
Wasn't USG's statement that the 1933DEs were never monetized and thus never released? HOW they got into somebody's hands is irrelevant, they are still stolen goods.
Now if you were an innocent purchaser, you might have a claim against your seller. That person, if equally innocent, has a claim back against whomever they purchased from... back to the person(s) who committed the illegal act, and they've got nothing.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Supposedly, “monetized” wasn’t even a word which was used at that time and was made up after the fact Also, many highly knowledgeable numismatists believe that based on long-standing practices during that time, if $20’s of different dates had been exchanged/traded/substituted, it wouldn’t have constituted theft. So how the coins got into someone’s hands would be highly relevant.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
http://yourprojectmanager.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Locomotive_Crash_by_Olho.jpg
Bingo...Tripp was given favorable treatment by the trial judge while RWB was not (not sure how QDB was treated but I doubt he was happy with the rules, either). Reminds me of some other high-profile cases over the years where the deck was stacked and the judge steered a decision.
Tripp didn't even know about the Froman Letter yet wanted to be considered an expert. And quite frankly, how much activity/work does a numismatist get working at Sotheby's ? It's not like he was working at HA or SB.
That depends on what the State Department would want to do. It could be quite political. Whoever won the auction, if it got that far would never dare to bring it to the United States.
That will never happen. Once the government won the court cases, the fate of those coins was sealed.
The $20 1933 DEs probably would have sold for about $30 (tops) if they had undergone a normal release. Once the entire run was struck after the May striking....they probably would have sold for a bit more IF it was known that very few (or none) had been released.
The problem was that NOBODY knew for sure at the time in the collecting world how many had gotten out in 1933 (probably none) or even by 1937 (probably 25, all from Israel Switt). So the premium on the coins was nice -- probably $50 - $150 -- but not anything approaching the 1924-S where the expectation was there might only be 3 of the coins (so presumably collectors/dealers thought there were more than 3 of the 1933's circulating even before 1937).
Collectors/dealers probably ASSUMED that a few coins were released in March/April 1933, but in fact NONE had gotten out. That wouldn't be known for years.
You wonder if the Treasury/Mint's obsession with the 1933's was in part motivated by their blunder with the entire bag of stolen 1928's.
Of course, the 1933's were NOT stolen -- 25 ounces of gold wasn't missing. The whole thing was that the gold collectors were despised personally AND politically by folks in government who were tracking the "stolen" 1933's. They knew that the 1933's (by this time) were worth about $500 - $1,000. For the folks in the Secret Service or Treasury or Mint...that was about 6 months of salary. They didn't think these guys who maybe "paid" $20 via exchange were entitled to a 30-fold windfall.
If by some chance nobody wanted 1933 DEs and the premium on them was $30 tops, I doubt the Treasury or Secret Service cares and goes after them.
Haven't read it but I'll take your word for it. I have seen the information in short-form from the detailed sales stuff put out by Sotheby's which was prepared by Tripp.
However, 2 simple questions show that Tripp wasn't as meticulous as other researchers of this time period (RWB, QDB, and RWJ come to mind):
First, he didn't know about the Froman Letter of early-1933 which permitted coin-for-coin exchanges. Second, he didn't address the fact that if the coins were "stolen" there had to be a shortfall in the gold ounces and there was NO shortfall.
Clearly, an exchange took place at some point (maybe 1933/34 but most likely 1937). The government's obsession is clearly tied to the fact that the coins appreciated from 1933 to 1937 and again up to 1944 and beyond when they actually started to be found and tracked down and confiscated. If the 1933's were being loaded up for melting in 1937 and it was known that there was only a miniscule premium on them, I doubt if anybody would have cared if a staffer had taken 10 older DE coins and asked for 10 new 1933s once the bag(s) were opened.
This entire "no 1933's were released" is a result of the coins being worth 25-50x face value once it became clear that there weren't as many circulating (legally) as previously thought. The other coins at the top of the rarity lists were the 1924-S, 1926-D, and 1926-S. The 1933 didn't really stand out until after 1944.
I would too. I forced myself to read some of the Langbord pleadings and I found myself thinking that the Langbords' narrative could have been framed more simply and persuasively, with more relatable experts. Imho, anything could happen in a redo somewhere else.