1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles. Where are they?
Shamika
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I should know the answer to this, but I've not been keeping up to date on recent numismatic happenings.
Outside of the Smithsonian, how many 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle are in collector's hands today? I'm not sure how many the government has confiscated and if they are still intact.
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There is the public answer and then there is the no so public answer with a pretty significant spread between them, and then there is the truth somewhere in the middle
In addition to the ones in the Smithsonian, there are the ten that were confiscated from the Langbords, one legally owned by a collector, and likely a very small number - my guess being 2-3 - of others (illegal to own) in the hands of other collectors.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What happens if one of these is sold/owned outside of the US? Does a foreign auction house have free reign to sell one?
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Besides Elite's coin, I knew of another one that was privately owned, but it was subsequently surrendered ro the feds in exchange for some type of tax write-off. I think the gov't has a dozen or so by now.
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In addition to the the ex Farouk piece in private hands, i think there could be a whole bag of '33's, face value $5000 that was stolen. When the great melt of 1933 Double Eagles happened in 1937, there could have been a bag of 1928's mixed in with the 1933's to be melted. The '28's came from a theft of a bag of 250 of them, face value $5000, from the Mint's vaults sometime prior to 1937 but after 1933.
The crime was never solved.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
What make you think the person (s) that stole the 28s traded them for 33s?
Martin
To my knowledge, there’s never been any indication or even a hint that any such thing ever occurred regarding additional 1933 Saints. That’s pure unsupported speculation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
After Ms Langbord’s ordeal….”don't ask, don’t tell ! “. Gay or not.
The timing of the theft of the '28s ( a major theft that shockingly was not vigorously investigated as to who did it) relative to the timing of the melting of the '33s is suspect. The government declared that no 1933 gold was found to be missing after the great melt in '37. Of course there wasn't any gold found missing from 1933 DE production. The stolen 1933 pieces had been replaced with coins from the theft of a bag of common '28s from the Mint vault. My belief is that Switt acquired the 1933 dated pieces (about 20) that he did around 1936 and they were part of a larger group that had been stolen from the mint earlier. Where the rest of the '33s that escaped the melting pot are or what happened with them is anybody's guess.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I don’t understand why the government doesn’t just sell their 1933 eagles and get some needed cash for the treasury
I'm still not clear on your scenario.
You almost make it sound like two bags were "stolen" but it seems that one bag of 1928 was stolen and substituted for a bag of 1933. Or, just one bag of 1933 was really stolen and the 1928 was just shuffled around inside the vault to cover their tracks.
In any case, did the Mint or Treasury really segregate coins by date once they went into inventory? The 1933 DEs weren't issued, but they were all illegal to own/issue soon enough (except for exempted gold coins already in private hands, of course). When it came to melting, did they really care what dates they were?
They also could have stolen all of them and replaced them with British sovereigns. But there is zero evidence of it. They might also have stolen a bag of 1913 Liberty nickels and replaced them with Buffs. Oooo... and maybe they struck a bag of 1933 doubled die Lincolns that are just waiting to be found.
They could make more money by simply striking half dollars and stacking them in a vault.
The bags would have been all one date when struck. See GSA Morgans.
I understand that. But once the solid-date bags of DEs were loaded into the vault, did the Mint or Treasury segregate the coins (bags) by date? I assume they just cared about how many in total were there.
Would depend upon how the bags were marked. Did a new empty bag just have 250 double eagles printed on it with actual ID being made by a tag indicating the year. If the tag said 1933 they assumed the coins inside were 1933 so they never opened the bag to verify the contents. I expect that they threw the bags in too in order to capture any gold dust.
It doesn't seem plausible that someone would drag a 5000 coin DE bag into the treasury vault and swap it out for another one.
I'm really disappointed to not see you post some version of this meme here.
Oh how the mighty have fallen!
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Not 5,000 coins. $5,000 face value, or 250 coins.
I'm clearly off my game this morning. I need more coffee.
As I understand the Mint's allegations, the 1933 $20's were struck, counted, bagged and stored pending testing of a sample of the coinage batch by the Mint Lab as to weight and, more importantly, fineness. This was apparently routine procedure for all precious metal coinage batches from all mints.
Until the batch was approved and released, they would not have been stored with the general population of coins ready for shipment to a Federal Reserve Bank, lest they be accidentally shipped out before release. This implies storage in a separate vault for a while in 1933. Allegedly while they were thus on hold awaiting testing, the decision was made not to release any gold coins for other reasons.
Of course, this decision not to release was not an order to melt them. and once the Mint Lab finished their testing there is no reason why the 1933 coins could not have been put in the general population pending decisions as to what to do with the gold inventory. Whether this mixing of the 1933's with the general population ever took place I do not know, and I don't think the Mint ever told.
There's still time
There is the Farouk example that was legitimated by the federal government and is in private hands. As to the rest, we will likely never know as no one wants to be Langborded.
@mr1931S
What time frame was the bag of 28’s stolen or first found missing?
A time line of events would be nice
Also you believe Izzy didn’t get his 33’s form the vault teller?
Thanks
Martin
If the coin appears in an auction outside of the US and the US government gets wind of it, they will probably ask the other country's government to confiscate the coin as stolen property and return it to the US, and that's what will likely happen. A private sale outside of the US sounds like a far better option.
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The Government won the Langbord case by cheating severely. They failed to file the necessary paperwork by a certain mandatory deadline after they seized the coins, and then when the Langbord's attorney(s) used this legal deficiency to get a judgement ordering that the coins be returned to the Langbords, the Government used its "Official 800 Pound Gorilla Power" to demand a do-over and they won their case on the fraudulent do-over.
So, if you have a 1933 St. Gaudens $20 and you try to sell it on the Far Side of the Moon, you are going to get busted by the Government unless you have a Permission Slip signed by Franklin D. Roosevelt and J. Edgar Hoover on the back of an original copy of the Declaration of Independence!
An entire bag of Double Eagles most likely coins dated 1928 was stolen from the Mint's vaults. See David Tripp's book for details about this story. The Mint held Double Eagles, presumably all that were ever made, bearing the date 1933 were not melted until 1937. Did officials check each and every coin for it's date as the coins went into the melting pot? A whole bag of non 1933 dated pieces substituted for 1933 dated coins that had been spirited out of the Mint could easily be slipped into the melting pot so that no gold would be determined to be missing from 1933 production. The theft of the bag of non 1933 dated DE's from a Mint storage vault is a crime that has never been solved.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Amazing to me the Langbord’s came out with 11 examples.
I think I would have brought out two. If the government somehow made them legal, then there would only be a population of 3 total, still making them very, very rare and valuable!
If they confiscated them, well I would still have 9 to play around with, give to friends, etc.😉😂
She kept the other 10 in the original roll.
I have often wondered what the market price is for the Secret 1933’s.
10% of the Farouk 1933? 50%?
Selling into a small market, but million dollar coins always sell into a small market.
There were 10, not 11, unless you know something the rest of us don’t.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A government attorney who helped craft the deal for the ex Farouk '33 to be legally owned is on the record as saying the ex Farouk coin will forever be the only 1933 Double Eagle legal to own privately. The government is now in possession of twelve 1933 Double Eagles and it looks a lot like none of them will ever be sold. Ever.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
ONE legal coin is a $10M coin.
ELEVEN legal coins are $500K coins.
$5M is nothing to the USG.
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Was the legalized 1933 ever confirmed to be the Farouk example?
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Agreed about small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.
However, ONE legal coin is quite a bit more than $10,000,000 unless its value takes a large drop from its previous sale. And based on the prices obtained for other highly publicized rarities with populations similar to “ELEVEN”, $500,000 is way too low. I think they’d bring a minimum of four to five times that amount.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think the government should back off a bit from their "never" position and let loose of the only circulated 1933 DE they have in their possession. It's graded as NGC About Uncirculated and most probably was I. Switt's pocket piece, the '33 DE piece that he would show off to good friends and customers who visited his shop.
Of course, if that were to happen it would only be a matter of time before the gov would be looking at a lawsuit filed by the owner of the ex Farouk piece. Instead of a lawsuit, however, if it was up to me as an authorized government representative, I would offer the ex Farouk piece owner this deal, a trade:
Give up the ex Farouk piece in exchange for the finest known 1933 DE, an NGC 65 that was part of the Langbord holdings.
The owner of the ex Farouk piece would get the finest known 1933 DE and someone else would be able to acquire the worst known 1933 DE, the personal pocket piece of I. Switt.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Agreed. A government sanctioned 1933 $20 (in a slab with an "ex-Langbord Pedigree" just to be schmucks!) auction would sell for $2M minimum, possibly $3M for the nicest one.
The “ex Farouk” coin has already been graded 65 by PCGS and verified by CAC. And even if it hadn’t been, I believe that due to its history, it would be more valuable than any other example. So there wouldn’t be any incentive for its owner to make your proposed trade.
Edited to add: Additionally, Coin World had reported that NGC graded two of the Langbord 1933 Saints MS65 and one, MS66.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I happened to receive a special invitation to tour the West Point Mint which was not a normal invitation and what I saw in the normal daily operations in the year 2011 would blow your mind as to what the US government says versus what they do.
I got in big trouble for accurately reporting the truth right on this PCGS board and was forced to delete my posting.
I cannot say any more publicly.
The below copied portion of the auction lot description provides what looks to be very strong circumstantial evidence that the legalized example is the Farouk coin. Link to the entire description:
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle
“ THE ONE
The Jeweler from Cairo
FACADE OF STEPHEN FENTON’S KNIGHTSBRIDGE COINS SHOP, LONDON, ENGLAND (CREDIT: DAVID TRIPP)
In early 1994, a young Egyptian jeweler, whose family had been in business in Cairo for generations, was introduced to London coin dealer André de Clermont and began selling him some remarkable coins. De Clermont, in turn, began to work with another London dealer, Stephen Fenton.
Throughout 1994 and 1995, the two dealers purchased some two hundred coins which were of uniformly high quality and, on occasion, of significant rarity. De Clermont’s educated guess that “such good coins coming out of Egypt” must have emanated from Farouk’s collection56 was confirmed by the jeweler, who explained, “he got them from the children of one of the colonels with Nasser and that this man, who was now dead . . . had acquired a great many coins from the Farouk sale.”57 Fenton and de Clermont delved into the Farouk catalogue and positively identified fifty separate lots they had jointly purchased.
"WONDERFUL"
“Well, if it comes, it will come,” was the jeweler’s reply to de Clermont casually mentioning that Farouk had once owned a 1933 Double Eagle. In the late summer of 1995, de Clermont called Fenton with the news that the 1933 Double Eagle was in London. “It was the most amazing feeling I’ve ever had with a coin,” Fenton recalled, and described the first time he held the 1933 Double Eagle in a word: “Wonderful.”58
The jeweler asked $325,000: not cheap. Patiently, Fenton negotiated the price down to $210,000, with an additional $10,000 for other coins in the transaction. On October 3, 1995, the funds were wired from Fenton’s account to the jeweler’s.59 What next?”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is no official "chain of custody," but I accept that the Fenton coin is the Farouk coin.
That's to easy 🥴
I hope the coins held by the government eventually do hit the market. Seasons change.
I still wonder what the price is for any unknown 1933’s.
After I win the lottery, I might find out.
The ex Farouk piece is inferior to the nicest piece that NGC graded is the point. And really, how can anyone know that the only 1933 DE that is legal to own was actually owned by Farouk? Are there any photographs or is there videos in existence of King Farouk showing off his 1933 so we can be certain of it's provenance? No, there are not.
The gov could allow the "ex Farouk" owner his choice of which ever '33 DE suits his fancy. Lawsuit avoided and the historic Switt pocket piece hits the market, for sale to the highest bidder.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Best of luck to you in your dealmaking attempt.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the deal I propose could actually happen, it might open the door for the gov to lighten up on it's "never" position with regard to it's 1933 DE's. More letting go of '33 DE's could follow, in other words.
The owner's selected coin would probably get a "67" by a TPG, making it indeed, "Finest known."
Somebody tell me I'm wrong.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The ex Farouk piece cannot be called "finest known" simply because it isn't. At this time,the government owns the finest known 1933 DE. Sadly, that's a fact.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You're wrong.