States will only regulate break boxes if they are interested in enforcing.
Which for whatever reason they are not.
Maybe this is an overlooked gaming enterprise, maybe not. But there are plenty of incentives to maintain integrity and plenty to cheat. There were incentives in Nevada to maintain integrity in gaming. Somehow the Nevada Gaming Control Board developed.
@Catbert said:
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
Because they are flat out copying what someone else did, and there was circumstantial evidence that someone else's marketing and coordination was not legitimate. That's why. Pretty much the same thing -- gambling disguised as something else, with no regulation, or trusted independent third party verification and oversight of the distribution of winning tickets.
I also think (and, upon further reflection, I think this is accurate) that they can make errors and non-random choices by accident and without nefarious plans. We all have in built biases and tendencies that are incredibly difficult to overcome. For a small operation like this, it's tough to have the controls in place to prevent this.
I don't question CACG's ethics and I predominantly don't question Witter's...but things can get skewed even when being ethical.
@Catbert said:
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
Because they are flat out copying what someone else did, and there was circumstantial evidence that someone else's marketing and coordination was not legitimate. That's why. Pretty much the same thing -- gambling disguised as something else, with no regulation, or trusted independent third party verification and oversight of the distribution of winning tickets.
I also think (and, upon further reflection, I think this is accurate) that they can make errors and non-random choices by accident and without nefarious plans. We all have in built biases and tendencies that are incredibly difficult to overcome. For a small operation like this, it's tough to have the controls in place to prevent this.
I don't question CACG's ethics and I predominantly don't question Witter's...but things can get skewed even when being ethical.
Please don't get me wrong with respect to all the TPGs, not just CACG. They are in this to make a buck, and, I'm sure, are providing whatever services are purchased with integrity.
They are not responsible for distribution once boxes leave their warehouses. If the client wants to know which items were randomly placed in which boxes, they would have an obligation to oblige. At the end of the day, there has to be an audit trail, somewhere, regarding precisely what was received by the TPG, slabbed, and then returned to the client for resale.
@Catbert said:
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
1) Caveat emptor
2) Apply Occam’s Razor— assume the simplest explanation with the least variables
3) Where the simplest answer leads to a cautionary result, or one which requires a more complex/opaque explanation, then,
4) It is up to seller of a good or service to explain why the more involved explanation is the correct one.
Many an investor/buyer have been later disappointed by skipping 3&4.
@spacehayduke said:
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
Obviously, you are under no obligation to respond to this inquiry. But, if you are inclined to do so, it would settle this issue.
On the 1st WitterBrick release on 08/30/24, the individual 'Base' boxes had no guarantee regarding Au or Ag labels. However, if a customer purchased 10 'Base' boxes, they were guaranteed to receive at least one Au or Ag label item. If Witter does not know the contents of the individual 'Base' boxes, how is it possible to make this guarantee?
@Catbert said:
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
Agree. These things are guaranteed to make money. Why would anyone screw that up and risk their other operations as well?
@spacehayduke said:
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
Obviously, you are under no obligation to respond to this inquiry. But, if you are inclined to do so, it would settle this issue.
On the 1st WitterBrick release on 08/30/24, the individual 'Base' boxes had no guarantee regarding Au or Ag labels. However, if a customer purchased 10 'Base' boxes, they were guaranteed to receive at least one Au or Ag label item. If Witter does not know the contents of the individual 'Base' boxes, how is it possible to make this guarantee?
@fathom said:
States will only regulate break boxes if they are interested in enforcing.
Which for whatever reason they are not.
Maybe this is an overlooked gaming enterprise, maybe not. But there are plenty of incentives to maintain integrity and plenty to cheat. There were incentives in Nevada to maintain integrity in gaming. Somehow the Nevada Gaming Control Board developed.
Different issue. The house take is not variable for the boxes like it is in a casino. Witter doesn't make more money by engaging in a non-random distribution and risks the entire operation if they do.
@Catbert said:
Well, I'm not a buyer of the bricks yet I'll use my instinct to guide me. The simplest explanation is that it isn't a scam as so many imply.
Of course it's not a "scam" in the traditional sense. It's just a pretty bad deal for the retail customer. All fully disclosed if people are sharp enough to understand what they are being told.
Witter is liquidating inventory in an opaque manner that gives buyers the thrill of a pull. In return, buyers are paying a premium over what they would pay for the exact same coins elsewhere.
Moreover, bulk buyers are going to get the better coins. Not a scam. Just something most collectors who are not degenerate gamblers, or flippers looking to flip to the greater fool, would have no interest in.
Hopefully, Seth posts and definitively closes the issue.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
If so that clears up my concern for sure and happy to be incorrect. And that makes sense.
To me, it clears up nothing. The TPG is not necessarily sealing the case. They are only sealing the boxes within the sealed cases.
Cases are packed and sealed at distribution centers, not TPGs, unless TPGs are also doing the distribution. For some unfathomable reason, no one has yet thought to do that to create an additional degree of separation between the sellers/resellers and the ultimate customers. Anyone else wonder why? 😀
@Catbert said:
Well, I'm not a buyer of the bricks yet
Witter is liquidating inventory.
I know of a couple of unique coins that he bought from friends of mine specifically to include in these bricks. So it may be he is liquidating some percentage of inventory but that is not the case for all of the coins.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
“lottery" includes any arrangement whereby three or more persons (the "participants") advance money or credit to another in exchange for the possibility or expectation that one or more but not all of the participants (the "winners") will receive by reason of their advances more than the amounts they have advanced, the identity of the winners being determined by any means which includes--A) a random selection; (B) a game, race, or contest; or.......
If what is being done could potentially be determined to be a private interstate lottery, there would be more pressing primary concerns to address than adequacy of disclosure concerning how the winners are drawn, Such as, what does federal, and the laws of every state in which that might be offered , have to say about whether private lotteries are even allowed.
@Catbert said:
Well, I'm not a buyer of the bricks yet
Witter is liquidating inventory.
I know of a couple of unique coins that he bought from friends of mine specifically to include in these bricks. So it may be he is liquidating some percentage of inventory but that is not the case for all of the coins.
Right. Those would be the prizes seeded "randomly" to create interest.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
I worked hard for over a year picking out some very nice coins to place with WitterBrick. Looked through 25,000 + coins. It's all mostly vintage coins, many came from Jack Beymer's inventory that I bought last year. Dreamy mid-grade Bust, Seated and Barber Coins. There's a huge emphasis on classic key dates. It took a while to accumulate. All have been graded by CACG and are solid for the grade. Nice coins sell no matter what. My goal was to create a nice product that people wanted, with independent grading, pricing, and verification.
WitterBrick isn't for everyone, I get that. It's not designed for everyone. There are a million different ways to collect coins - and this is one. Most of the buyers were people newer to coins, beginning collectors or advanced higher end collectors that just wanted to have some fun.
We pre-sold a handle to specific seller on whatnot - people who I know that I could represent the product well, and the remaining was sold on our website. It sold out in two minutes. I never would have predicted that, I am happy that people wanted a WitterBrick. I cannot control demand nor after marketing pricing. The market decides.
It's quite amazing all of the misinformation spread about on this post about, WitterBreak, Witter Coin, myself and even Witter Coin University. But that's how it is. Nearly all questions were answered and facts stated on the WitterBricjk website, and our social media accounts. So many "gotcha Seth" moments here. That's ok. I have been a PCGS forum member for 20 years, and I know how these threads turn out!!!!! It's endless, we used to call these death threads. I can't spend all weekend answering the same questions again and again. Im not trying to convincing anyone of anything. I just let my track record and WitterBrick speak for itself.
One of my goals with coins is that I hope I have a little success in some areas and that inspires others. Whether it's WitterBrick, running a coin shop, helping others to become coin dealers or simply helping young numismatists. I hope that my experiences help make things better. The hobby and been great to me and I like to give back.
He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
“lottery" includes any arrangement whereby three or more persons (the "participants") advance money or credit to another in exchange for the possibility or expectation that one or more but not all of the participants (the "winners") will receive by reason of their advances more than the amounts they have advanced, the identity of the winners being determined by any means which includes--A) a random selection; (B) a game, race, or contest; or.......
If what is being done could potentially be determined to be a private interstate lottery, there would be more pressing primary concerns to address than adequacy of disclosure concerning how the winners are drawn, Such as, what does federal, and the laws of every state in which that might be offered , have to say about whether private lotteries are even allowed.
You are just beating a dead horse. While that might be exactly how these things work, the fact that a product is being sold, and that everyone gets something of value, allows these to avoid that definition and legal consequence.
Trading card companies have been doing it forever, and the coin guys have successfully co-opted that model. Topps would have been sued out of existence back in the 1980s if "federal, and the laws of every state in which that might be offered" had anything at all to say about this.
Minshull and Witter are way too sharp, and way too successful, to have not explored the legality of this before getting involved. The simple fact is that every potential pitfall is fully disclosed to buyers. People didn't believe my negative interpretation before the release of VB 1 of how it was going to work out for most people, but I was vindicated by the internet, if not this forum, after its release.
And here we are. I went from being a hard core consumer advocate railing against poor people being taken advantage of, to adopting @jmlanzaf's view that people need to take responsibility for their decisions, and it's not my place to tell people how to have fun. Doesn't change my opinion of the product, but does give me a new respect for the people able to successfully market it.
I worked hard for over a year picking out some very nice coins to place with WitterBrick. Looked through 25,000 + coins. It's all mostly vintage coins, many came from Jack Beymer's inventory that I bought last year. Dreamy mid-grade Bust, Seated and Barber Coins. There's a huge emphasis on classic key dates. It took a while to accumulate. All have been graded by CACG and are solid for the grade. Nice coins sell no matter what. My goal was to create a nice product that people wanted, with independent grading, pricing, and verification.
WitterBrick isn't for everyone, I get that. It's not designed for everyone. There are a million different ways to collect coins - and this is one. Most of the buyers were people newer to coins, beginning collectors or advanced higher end collectors that just wanted to have some fun.
We pre-sold a handle to specific seller on whatnot - people who I know that I could represent the product well, and the remaining was sold on our website. It sold out in two minutes. I never would have predicted that, I am happy that people wanted a WitterBrick. I cannot control demand nor after marketing pricing. The market decides.
It's quite amazing all of the misinformation spread about on this post about, WitterBreak, Witter Coin, myself and even Witter Coin University. But that's how it is. Nearly all questions were answered and facts stated on the WitterBricjk website, and our social media accounts. So many "gotcha Seth" moments here. That's ok. I have been a PCGS forum member for 20 years, and I know how these threads turn out!!!!! It's endless, we used to call these death threads. I can't spend all weekend answering the same questions again and again. Im not trying to convincing anyone of anything. I just let my track record and WitterBrick speak for itself.
One of my goals with coins is that I hope I have a little success in some areas and that inspires others. Whether it's WitterBrick, running a coin shop, helping others to become coin dealers or simply helping young numismatists. I hope that my experiences help make things better. The hobby and been great to me and I like to give back.
Thanks for chiming in. I sure wouldn't have if I was in your shoes!! 😀
But, as long as you are here, I've been dying to know, since the launch of VB Series 1, why you don't have the TPGs who seed and seal the boxes handle distribution, given the potential for mischief? The publicly displayed distribution of prizes from VB Series 1 was anything but random, and their explanations strained credibility.
I fully realize you are not them, and this is not that, but the model and method of distribution is very similar. Given the success, you clearly don't need to change anything. But, if you care about appearances, why not be above reproach, and not touch the product once it is seeded and sealed by the TPG?
I worked hard for over a year picking out some very nice coins to place with WitterBrick. Looked through 25,000 + coins. It's all mostly vintage coins, many came from Jack Beymer's inventory that I bought last year. Dreamy mid-grade Bust, Seated and Barber Coins. There's a huge emphasis on classic key dates. It took a while to accumulate. All have been graded by CACG and are solid for the grade. Nice coins sell no matter what. My goal was to create a nice product that people wanted, with independent grading, pricing, and verification.
WitterBrick isn't for everyone, I get that. It's not designed for everyone. There are a million different ways to collect coins - and this is one. Most of the buyers were people newer to coins, beginning collectors or advanced higher end collectors that just wanted to have some fun.
We pre-sold a handle to specific seller on whatnot - people who I know that I could represent the product well, and the remaining was sold on our website. It sold out in two minutes. I never would have predicted that, I am happy that people wanted a WitterBrick. I cannot control demand nor after marketing pricing. The market decides.
It's quite amazing all of the misinformation spread about on this post about, WitterBreak, Witter Coin, myself and even Witter Coin University. But that's how it is. Nearly all questions were answered and facts stated on the WitterBricjk website, and our social media accounts. So many "gotcha Seth" moments here. That's ok. I have been a PCGS forum member for 20 years, and I know how these threads turn out!!!!! It's endless, we used to call these death threads. I can't spend all weekend answering the same questions again and again. Im not trying to convincing anyone of anything. I just let my track record and WitterBrick speak for itself.
One of my goals with coins is that I hope I have a little success in some areas and that inspires others. Whether it's WitterBrick, running a coin shop, helping others to become coin dealers or simply helping young numismatists. I hope that my experiences help make things better. The hobby and been great to me and I like to give back.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
You would be wrong. Whatnot is full of amateur mystery boxes in multiple categories. There is a huge organic market.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
You would be wrong. Whatnot is full of amateur mystery boxes in multiple categories. They're is a huge organic market.
I understand. I'm pretty sure we are agreeing, and are just arguing semantics. I'm saying it's an artificial Whatnot internet bubble, and it's not a legit or organic market.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
They are two completely different audiences. As of Oct 2023 the interweb says Whatnot has 3.1 million monthly visitors. I'm sure it's much higher now. The coin and bullion category has many dozens if not hundreds of live shows running every day. It amazes me every time I'm on the platform how many people will spend hundreds on a mystery game and walk away with an ounce or two of silver, and won't pay melt for bullion in a BIN or Auction setting.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
You would be wrong. Whatnot is full of amateur mystery boxes in multiple categories. They're is a huge organic market.
I understand. I'm pretty sure we are agreeing, and are just arguing semantics. I'm saying it's an artificial Whatnot internet bubble, and it's not a legit or organic market.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
No, that's not what I'm saying. There's also YouTube. You are making a rule out of the exception. VB, Witter and ultra breaks have all been successful. Whatnot, YouTube are full of gambling games and mystery boxes. That IS THE RULE not the exception.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
They are two completely different audiences. As of Oct 2023 the interweb says Whatnot has 3.1 million monthly visitors. I'm sure it's much higher now. The coin and bullion category has many dozens if not hundreds of live shows running every day. It amazes me every time I'm on the platform how many people will spend hundreds on a mystery game and walk away with an ounce or two of silver, and won't pay melt for bullion in a BIN or Auction setting.
Agree on all counts.
And there are also YouTube channels where joeykoins plays.
I understand people not liking them. They're controversial in the other markets also (cards, comics, etc), but there is really no way to reasonably argue that they aren't incredibly popular.
@jmlanzaf said:
There's also YouTube. You are making a rule out of the exception. VB, Witter and ultra breaks have all been successful. Whatnot, YouTube are full of gambling games and mystery boxes. That IS THE RULE not the exception.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
You would be wrong. Whatnot is full of amateur mystery boxes in multiple categories. They're is a huge organic market.
I understand. I'm pretty sure we are agreeing, and are just arguing semantics. I'm saying it's an artificial Whatnot internet bubble, and it's not a legit or organic market.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
No, that's not what I'm saying. There's also YouTube. You are making a rule out of the exception. VB, Witter and ultra breaks have all been successful. Whatnot, YouTube are full of gambling games and mystery boxes. That IS THE RULE not the exception.
I guess I agree with you, but what you are saying is not inconsistent with what I am saying. The "huge organic market" for this is among young, degenerate internet gamblers. Not among the masses buying overpriced coins on TV, let alone collectors who actually know what they are doing.
That means this is not bringing the joys of sports card pack breaks to numismatics. It just means separating fools from their money on the internet. Through smoke and mirrors by having influencers demonstrate the thrill of victory, while leaving the suckers to experience the agony of defeat.
All while the promoters have no good answer as to why they stoke a market, while pushing product out the backdoor to wholesalers to feed the demand. Other than to incentivize influencers to influence by cutting them in for a piece of the action.
Both by steering winners their way, as well as by creating hype to increase demand, and then by creating shortages by diverting distribution to resellers, who can then resell at a markup to already inflated retail. Brilliant, so long a folks buy in. As apparently they do. Not here, and not on TV. But, seemingly, on YouTube and Whatnot.
And further can't, or won't, explain why distribution cannot be handled by a trusted third party, as grading and sealing are. Or how winners seem to disproportionately wind up in favored hands.
I have an uncanny ability to connect dots. One that is apparently unmatched by 3.1 million monthly visitors on Whatnot. But, as I have said before, I am well past the point of trying to save anyone from themselves, or telling anyone how to spend their money.
"Degenerate internet gamblers"? Gambling is serious concern and often a mental health issue. I've met countless gambling addicts in the last 25 years. They cover the entire spectrum of our society.
@jmlanzaf said:
There's also YouTube. You are making a rule out of the exception. VB, Witter and ultra breaks have all been successful. Whatnot, YouTube are full of gambling games and mystery boxes. That IS THE RULE not the exception.
And why is that? Oh wait, what did PT Barnum say?
He said, "As a general thing, I have not 'duped the world' nor attempted to do so... I have generally given people the worth of their money twice told."
Comments
States will only regulate break boxes if they are interested in enforcing.
Which for whatever reason they are not.
Maybe this is an overlooked gaming enterprise, maybe not. But there are plenty of incentives to maintain integrity and plenty to cheat. There were incentives in Nevada to maintain integrity in gaming. Somehow the Nevada Gaming Control Board developed.
I also think (and, upon further reflection, I think this is accurate) that they can make errors and non-random choices by accident and without nefarious plans. We all have in built biases and tendencies that are incredibly difficult to overcome. For a small operation like this, it's tough to have the controls in place to prevent this.
I don't question CACG's ethics and I predominantly don't question Witter's...but things can get skewed even when being ethical.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Interesting read for sure.
So now this great hobby needs "Influencers" to sell coins? That's unfortunate.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 37 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Please don't get me wrong with respect to all the TPGs, not just CACG. They are in this to make a buck, and, I'm sure, are providing whatever services are purchased with integrity.
They are not responsible for distribution once boxes leave their warehouses. If the client wants to know which items were randomly placed in which boxes, they would have an obligation to oblige. At the end of the day, there has to be an audit trail, somewhere, regarding precisely what was received by the TPG, slabbed, and then returned to the client for resale.
1) Caveat emptor
2) Apply Occam’s Razor— assume the simplest explanation with the least variables
3) Where the simplest answer leads to a cautionary result, or one which requires a more complex/opaque explanation, then,
4) It is up to seller of a good or service to explain why the more involved explanation is the correct one.
Many an investor/buyer have been later disappointed by skipping 3&4.
Well, I'm not a buyer of the bricks yet I'll use my instinct to guide me. The simplest explanation is that it isn't a scam as so many imply.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@SethChandler
Obviously, you are under no obligation to respond to this inquiry. But, if you are inclined to do so, it would settle this issue.
On the 1st WitterBrick release on 08/30/24, the individual 'Base' boxes had no guarantee regarding Au or Ag labels. However, if a customer purchased 10 'Base' boxes, they were guaranteed to receive at least one Au or Ag label item. If Witter does not know the contents of the individual 'Base' boxes, how is it possible to make this guarantee?
Agree. These things are guaranteed to make money. Why would anyone screw that up and risk their other operations as well?
The simplest explanation is that it isn't a scam as so many imply.
Or perhaps it may look to some like an unregulated lottery and people are seeking clarity on how the winning numbers are drawn?
Because it's not 10 boxes. It's a sealed case.
Different issue. The house take is not variable for the boxes like it is in a casino. Witter doesn't make more money by engaging in a non-random distribution and risks the entire operation if they do.
If so that clears up my concern for sure and happy to be incorrect. And that makes sense.
Great thread. contains every nightmare scenario.
Haven't had a turbulent topic run 500 posts since Manofcoins toned up some Morgans.
Definite possibility.
Hopefully, Seth posts and definitively closes the issue.
Of course it's not a "scam" in the traditional sense. It's just a pretty bad deal for the retail customer. All fully disclosed if people are sharp enough to understand what they are being told.
Witter is liquidating inventory in an opaque manner that gives buyers the thrill of a pull. In return, buyers are paying a premium over what they would pay for the exact same coins elsewhere.
Moreover, bulk buyers are going to get the better coins. Not a scam. Just something most collectors who are not degenerate gamblers, or flippers looking to flip to the greater fool, would have no interest in.
If he's smart, he will stay as far away from this thread as humanly possibly. Because anything he says can and will be used against him later.
No upside to satisfying our idle speculation. He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
It's what is not included in his disclosures that has the skeptics, including me, hot and bothered. That should be of no consequence to him. We are not customers anyway, and anything he might post to allay any concerns can only come back to bite him if unsatisfied customers later sue and anything he posts publicly turns out not to be 1,000,000% true.
He doesn't need to settle arguments here. He is likely too busy counting his cash.
To me, it clears up nothing. The TPG is not necessarily sealing the case. They are only sealing the boxes within the sealed cases.
Cases are packed and sealed at distribution centers, not TPGs, unless TPGs are also doing the distribution. For some unfathomable reason, no one has yet thought to do that to create an additional degree of separation between the sellers/resellers and the ultimate customers. Anyone else wonder why? 😀
I know of a couple of unique coins that he bought from friends of mine specifically to include in these bricks. So it may be he is liquidating some percentage of inventory but that is not the case for all of the coins.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
You are right, of course.
Notwithstanding, I am hoping that he will address this specific policy about large orders, which was publicly disclosed, in order to mitigate concerns about random distribution for future releases.
He has a successful product, and I'm quite sure he has sharp lawyers who ensured he is staying within the 4 corners of all of his disclosures.
If what is being done could potentially be determined to be a private interstate lottery, there would be more pressing primary concerns to address than adequacy of disclosure concerning how the winners are drawn, Such as, what does federal, and the laws of every state in which that might be offered , have to say about whether private lotteries are even allowed.
Right. Those would be the prizes seeded "randomly" to create interest.
I hear you. I wouldn't be a buyer under any circumstances, due to the economics.
But the fact remains that so long as Witter controls distribution, nothing he could possibly say would satisfy me, and seeing how VB handled things. Wouldn't matter to me at all whether cases were sealed at the TPG or at a Witter distribution center, since, as I have said ad infinitum, the lack of regulatory oversight, or an independent third party overseeing or conducting distribution, renders all the random sealing the TPG does meaningless to skeptics like me.
No fix for that other than actually giving up control, which none of them has any interest in doing. Telling me CACG is sealing a case before sending it to them does nothing for me.
Having me receive a sealed case directly from CACG, OTOH, would. Because then it would be JA's reputation on the line, as opposed to the company marketing it.
For what it's worth, Rick Tomaska tried the same thing through his TV show a few months ago. Without the internet influencers and Whatnot hype, it went nowhere. You can still buy them on his website.
Proving, at least to me, there is no organic market for this. That guy is a master telemarketer, who is all over cable and satellite practically 24/7, so someone must be watching and buying all kinds of overpriced offerings from him.
And yet even he could not sell out a run of mystery boxes that Witter and VB routinely move in under an hour. To me, it's the difference between straightforward, honest marketing of garbage and over hyped, smoke and mirrors marketing involving wholesaling out a lot of inventory, and then creating artificial buzz on outlets like Whatnot.
If it works for them, more power to them, but the RCTV example indicates to me this is not the second coming of sliced bread, or even a widely craved gambling vehicle.
This should be fun.....
I worked hard for over a year picking out some very nice coins to place with WitterBrick. Looked through 25,000 + coins. It's all mostly vintage coins, many came from Jack Beymer's inventory that I bought last year. Dreamy mid-grade Bust, Seated and Barber Coins. There's a huge emphasis on classic key dates. It took a while to accumulate. All have been graded by CACG and are solid for the grade. Nice coins sell no matter what. My goal was to create a nice product that people wanted, with independent grading, pricing, and verification.
WitterBrick isn't for everyone, I get that. It's not designed for everyone. There are a million different ways to collect coins - and this is one. Most of the buyers were people newer to coins, beginning collectors or advanced higher end collectors that just wanted to have some fun.
We pre-sold a handle to specific seller on whatnot - people who I know that I could represent the product well, and the remaining was sold on our website. It sold out in two minutes. I never would have predicted that, I am happy that people wanted a WitterBrick. I cannot control demand nor after marketing pricing. The market decides.
It's quite amazing all of the misinformation spread about on this post about, WitterBreak, Witter Coin, myself and even Witter Coin University. But that's how it is. Nearly all questions were answered and facts stated on the WitterBricjk website, and our social media accounts. So many "gotcha Seth" moments here. That's ok. I have been a PCGS forum member for 20 years, and I know how these threads turn out!!!!! It's endless, we used to call these death threads. I can't spend all weekend answering the same questions again and again. Im not trying to convincing anyone of anything. I just let my track record and WitterBrick speak for itself.
One of my goals with coins is that I hope I have a little success in some areas and that inspires others. Whether it's WitterBrick, running a coin shop, helping others to become coin dealers or simply helping young numismatists. I hope that my experiences help make things better. The hobby and been great to me and I like to give back.
Have a great Labor Day weekend!
Seth Chandler
Chief Wheat Cent Sorter, Witter Coin
You are just beating a dead horse. While that might be exactly how these things work, the fact that a product is being sold, and that everyone gets something of value, allows these to avoid that definition and legal consequence.
Trading card companies have been doing it forever, and the coin guys have successfully co-opted that model. Topps would have been sued out of existence back in the 1980s if "federal, and the laws of every state in which that might be offered" had anything at all to say about this.
Minshull and Witter are way too sharp, and way too successful, to have not explored the legality of this before getting involved. The simple fact is that every potential pitfall is fully disclosed to buyers. People didn't believe my negative interpretation before the release of VB 1 of how it was going to work out for most people, but I was vindicated by the internet, if not this forum, after its release.
And here we are. I went from being a hard core consumer advocate railing against poor people being taken advantage of, to adopting @jmlanzaf's view that people need to take responsibility for their decisions, and it's not my place to tell people how to have fun. Doesn't change my opinion of the product, but does give me a new respect for the people able to successfully market it.
Thanks for chiming in. I sure wouldn't have if I was in your shoes!! 😀
But, as long as you are here, I've been dying to know, since the launch of VB Series 1, why you don't have the TPGs who seed and seal the boxes handle distribution, given the potential for mischief? The publicly displayed distribution of prizes from VB Series 1 was anything but random, and their explanations strained credibility.
I fully realize you are not them, and this is not that, but the model and method of distribution is very similar. Given the success, you clearly don't need to change anything. But, if you care about appearances, why not be above reproach, and not touch the product once it is seeded and sealed by the TPG?
I appreciate you and all of your endeavors. This thread is ridiculous but it does explain the increased price of aluminum foil.
Mystery boxes have been around for probably 2 decades now. And so many thousands of people have had fun in the (apparently) wrong way.
Gonna have to wait for the next release. All my funds are tied up already.
Appreciate the reply @SethChandler. I have never had an interaction with you that left me unhappy.
Don’t sweat the negativity. Most of the people are just mad because they didn’t have the idea first or lacked the ability to execute.
You would be wrong. Whatnot is full of amateur mystery boxes in multiple categories. There is a huge organic market.
I understand. I'm pretty sure we are agreeing, and are just arguing semantics. I'm saying it's an artificial Whatnot internet bubble, and it's not a legit or organic market.
My evidence is a highly successful telemarketing organization that runs 30 minute informercials incessantly all over cable and satellite TV, indicating they have developed a deep market for overpriced moderns as well as classic coins. They also had a live show on Thursdays, also they have not had one of those for months now.
They introduced these at $795, including live breaks on the air when you called in to buy a box. Whoo hoo. It went nowhere, and you can still buy them, over 6 months after release, from their website at the release price.
No market without the internet influencers and whatever happens on Whatnot. Indicating to me it's the smoke and mirrors of Whatnot and the internet creating the demand, rather than a "huge organic market" to throw money into a Black Hole, since people willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars above retail for product marketed to them on TV are apparently unwilling to indulge an itch to throw away $800 on a coin lottery ticket.
I’m glad to not have an obsession to post on these mystery box threads railing on the same sheet over and over.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
"No matter how I try I find my way to the same old jam".
If I buy one on Ebay, is it returnable if the mix is less than a bases loaded double?
Not gonna do it...just thinking about the 3 CC Morgans I bought nearly 20 years ago in the "unopened" packaging.
They are two completely different audiences. As of Oct 2023 the interweb says Whatnot has 3.1 million monthly visitors. I'm sure it's much higher now. The coin and bullion category has many dozens if not hundreds of live shows running every day. It amazes me every time I'm on the platform how many people will spend hundreds on a mystery game and walk away with an ounce or two of silver, and won't pay melt for bullion in a BIN or Auction setting.
My Ebay Store
No, that's not what I'm saying. There's also YouTube. You are making a rule out of the exception. VB, Witter and ultra breaks have all been successful. Whatnot, YouTube are full of gambling games and mystery boxes. That IS THE RULE not the exception.
Agree on all counts.
And there are also YouTube channels where joeykoins plays.
I understand people not liking them. They're controversial in the other markets also (cards, comics, etc), but there is really no way to reasonably argue that they aren't incredibly popular.
And why is that? Oh wait, what did PT Barnum say?
It never ceases to amaze how some topics incite people to sermonize on how other people should or shouldn't enjoy this hobby.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I guess I agree with you, but what you are saying is not inconsistent with what I am saying. The "huge organic market" for this is among young, degenerate internet gamblers. Not among the masses buying overpriced coins on TV, let alone collectors who actually know what they are doing.
That means this is not bringing the joys of sports card pack breaks to numismatics. It just means separating fools from their money on the internet. Through smoke and mirrors by having influencers demonstrate the thrill of victory, while leaving the suckers to experience the agony of defeat.
All while the promoters have no good answer as to why they stoke a market, while pushing product out the backdoor to wholesalers to feed the demand. Other than to incentivize influencers to influence by cutting them in for a piece of the action.
Both by steering winners their way, as well as by creating hype to increase demand, and then by creating shortages by diverting distribution to resellers, who can then resell at a markup to already inflated retail. Brilliant, so long a folks buy in. As apparently they do. Not here, and not on TV. But, seemingly, on YouTube and Whatnot.
And further can't, or won't, explain why distribution cannot be handled by a trusted third party, as grading and sealing are. Or how winners seem to disproportionately wind up in favored hands.
I have an uncanny ability to connect dots. One that is apparently unmatched by 3.1 million monthly visitors on Whatnot. But, as I have said before, I am well past the point of trying to save anyone from themselves, or telling anyone how to spend their money.
"Degenerate internet gamblers"? Gambling is serious concern and often a mental health issue. I've met countless gambling addicts in the last 25 years. They cover the entire spectrum of our society.
Amen
He said, "As a general thing, I have not 'duped the world' nor attempted to do so... I have generally given people the worth of their money twice told."