@jmlanzaf said:
Yeah, I hate when a business makes money selling people something they want.
I don't think the issue is about making money. CAC and Witter Coin being associated with a gimmick lessens both of their brands and diverts resources to an endeavor that while profitable, doesn't benefit (maybe even hurts) the hobby.
It's a form of gambling, that's all it is. I don't think it lessens anything but overall it's probably good for the coin economy as it creates additional demand for coins.
And it is a form of gambling that:
A - Buyers might get coins they don't want that they overpaid for to appease their gambling addiction.
B - The seller greatly benefits by maximizing return on coins that would take alot more effort to sell but instead now can bank on gamblers gambling.
C - Is it just a matter of time before the Vegas big houses get involved in this scheme? What better place to do this than on the casino floor.........................
But hey it is all in the name fun as @jmlanzaf repeats. And to some degree I can't argue with that but because of A and B above, I'd recommend it to anyone to stay away as with Vault Box, most everyone will still overpay with zero control on what you receive. Better way to collect IMO, just sayin'
Agree. But that's the point: if you don't like to gamble, stay out of the casino. However, don't stand in front of the casino and try to keep other people from entering.
Yea. Several whatnot notifications I’ve been seeing today have Witter Brick. More and more dealers on there just going to these unboxing streams and gambling games.
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
That was mentioned in this Coingeek video. Didn't explain why but probably done because they wanted to ensure a sell out and or enjoy the extra promotion and hype. https://youtu.be/2cg4MCoCp_s
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Agreed, but no one "has to pay the reseller's markup." If everyone refused to do so, this would end overnight. But as long as money is burning holes in people's pockets, you can't complain about everyone up and down the line taking advantage of it.
Most of us agree these are not good deals for anyone other than Witter at MSRP, so there really is no reason to complain about Witter creating hype by guaranteeing sellouts, and about resellers taking advantage of people who derive fun by paying inflated prices for mystery boxes.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Perhaps, next up from Witter and CAC, a line on HSN or QVC? Seems like the inevitable conclusion. I’m 100% for making a buck. But this will not help numismatics in the slightest in the long run. Short term most likely. But, it’s a mockery.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Best, SH
That's precisely why it's genius for marketing - they just stole the idea. No work needed.
I think it's a horrendous look for Witter from the professional side of the hobby, but I gotta give it to 'em as far a profit goes.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Best, SH
That's precisely why it's genius for marketing - they just stole the idea. No work needed.
I think it's a horrendous look for Witter from the professional side of the hobby, but I gotta give it to 'em as far a profit goes.
Yup and they will dump all the crap they cannot sell on the market and it will end up in an LCS. They in turn will dump it to GC or another dealer and values will plummet. Oh well its harmless, "people are having fun".......right?
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Respectfully, I am not sure I agree with this objection.
The contents of each box is clearly not random. In fact, it cannot be due to the constraints (e.g., minimum box value, guaranteed "gold label coin" in "Player's Box", etc.).
However, it does not necessarily follow that the distribution is non-random.
According to the video posted by @ProofCollection (above @10:50), CACG finalizes the boxes, and Witter does not know what is in a specific box. If Witter does not know what is in a specific 'Player's/Prestige/Base' box, it is not possible for them to send the "cherry boxes" to particular customer.
NOT defending the 'Mystery Box' concept. Just saying that if it was handled as described, it would be difficult to channel the 'winners' to highly visible customers.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Best, SH
That's precisely why it's genius for marketing - they just stole the idea. No work needed.
I think it's a horrendous look for Witter from the professional side of the hobby, but I gotta give it to 'em as far a profit goes.
Kind of a shame that Witter Coin is teaching and has influence over a young numismatist program where they are indoctrinating the kids with this questionable gambling method to sell coins.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Respectfully, I am not sure I agree with this objection.
The contents of each box is clearly not random. In fact, it cannot be due to the constraints (e.g., minimum box value, guaranteed "gold label coin" in "Player's Box", etc.).
However, it does not necessarily follow that the distribution is non-random.
According to the video posted by @ProofCollection (above @10:50), CACG finalizes the boxes, and Witter does not know what is in a specific box. If Witter does not know what is in a specific 'Player's/Prestige/Base' box, it is not possible for them to send the "cherry boxes" to particular customer.
NOT defending the 'Mystery Box' concept. Just saying that if it was handled as described, it would be difficult to channel the 'winners' to highly visible customers.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
In theory a third party who loaded the coins in the boxes could group all the base level boxes in groups of 10 while ensuring that a gold or silver label is in each group. Once that is done they would stack the groups from front to back. If Witter gets an order for less than ten then they just pull from the front but if they get an order for a lot of 10 then they can pull a complete group from the back.
Not saying that’s how it’s going down but this would be a reasonable way to truly guarantee a hit in a group of 10 without Witter knowing what coins are where.
@ksuscott said:
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Best, SH
That's precisely why it's genius for marketing - they just stole the idea. No work needed.
I think it's a horrendous look for Witter from the professional side of the hobby, but I gotta give it to 'em as far a profit goes.
Kind of a shame that Witter Coin is teaching and has influence over a young numismatist program where they are indoctrinating the kids with this questionable gambling method to sell coins.
It's certainly sad, but anyone familiar with Witter U would not be surprised. They teach dealing, not numismatics. That means profiting.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
In theory a third party who loaded the coins in the boxes could group all the base level boxes in groups of 10 while ensuring that a gold or silver label is in each group. Once that is done they would stack the groups from front to back. If Witter gets an order for less than ten then they just pull from the front but if they get an order for a lot of 10 then they can pull a complete group from the back.
Not saying that’s how it’s going down but this would be a reasonable way to truly guarantee a hit in a group of 10 without Witter knowing what coins are where.
Yes that is possible, but it still means a non-random distribution, Say Joe Influencer orders a box, seller says, hey that is Mr. Influencer, take one from the back make he/she happy if we can bc thaz where the good stuff is. Say Joe Spacehayduke orders a box, seller says, ‘make sure you pull one from the front, we know this guy and…………’. So your scenario still seems to me to be non-random. Just sayin’.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
In theory a third party who loaded the coins in the boxes could group all the base level boxes in groups of 10 while ensuring that a gold or silver label is in each group. Once that is done they would stack the groups from front to back. If Witter gets an order for less than ten then they just pull from the front but if they get an order for a lot of 10 then they can pull a complete group from the back.
Not saying that’s how it’s going down but this would be a reasonable way to truly guarantee a hit in a group of 10 without Witter knowing what coins are where.
Yes that is possible, but it still means a non-random distribution, Say Joe Influencer orders a box, seller says, hey that is Mr. Influencer, take one from the back make he/she happy if we can bc thaz where the good stuff is. Say Joe Spacehayduke orders a box, seller says, ‘make sure you pull one from the front, we know this guy and…………’. So your scenario still seems to me to be non-random. Just sayin’.
Sure it’s a non-random distribution because of the guaranteed silver/gold label but if it was done by a third party and the seller was unaware of where the hit was in the group of ten boxes then how would the seller know where to grab from the back?
Your scenario is accurate if it was the seller that loaded everything or if the third party told the seller the placement of the hits which would defeat the purpose of having a third party load the boxes.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
There was no such observation of vault box. There was one video that everyone was suspicious about. But keep the tin foil hat on, it looks good on you.
There is no reason for any of these firms to cheat. Cheating would kill their credibility and business. They are guaranteed to make money just by selling the boxes. So what would be the value in a TPGS helping them cheat? The boxes are all packed by NGC, PCGS abs CACG.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
In theory a third party who loaded the coins in the boxes could group all the base level boxes in groups of 10 while ensuring that a gold or silver label is in each group. Once that is done they would stack the groups from front to back. If Witter gets an order for less than ten then they just pull from the front but if they get an order for a lot of 10 then they can pull a complete group from the back.
Not saying that’s how it’s going down but this would be a reasonable way to truly guarantee a hit in a group of 10 without Witter knowing what coins are where.
Yes that is possible, but it still means a non-random distribution, Say Joe Influencer orders a box, seller says, hey that is Mr. Influencer, take one from the back make he/she happy if we can bc thaz where the good stuff is. Say Joe Spacehayduke orders a box, seller says, ‘make sure you pull one from the front, we know this guy and…………’. So your scenario still seems to me to be non-random. Just sayin’.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back. This continues to be unfounded libel.
Yesterday, I watched Witter Coins auction off these Witterbrick boxes being auctioned off. First off, I couldn't believe how many bidders were bidding and no one knew how many coins were in the brick nor what coins were in there. After the live auction ended they open the box and shared what was inside - all CAC graded coins - something modern, old and in the middle. Not for me but had great interest.
It may or may not have an impact on the hobby as a whole. I, personally, take no issue with gambling, and I enjoy it on occasion.
This is not my preferred way to gamble, so it’s not for me. One observation is that historically, the only thing that has followed gambling, almost without fail, is regulation.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back.
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back.
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
It's a SEALED case not 10 random boxes. It's really very simple. The INDEPENDENT packer creates groups of 30 coins (10x3) and then packs each case.
If you really need more explanation. Let's say there a total of 10 cases in the entire series. The coins in the series consist of the following:
The packer divides the 300 coins into 10 groups. Each group has one Gold, 3 silver and 26 regular. You then take each group of 30 coins and divide it into 10 subgroups of 3. You wrap each set of 3 into a box and the 10 boxes into a case.
Even if the packer knows where everything is, and they don't really need to care or keep track, Witter has no idea where anything is. That is why they go through the trouble and exorcist of hiring the TPGS to do the packing.
@EastonCollection said:
Yesterday, I watched Witter Coins auction off these Witterbrick boxes being auctioned off. First off, I couldn't believe how many bidders were bidding and no one knew how many coins were in the brick nor what coins were in there. After the live auction ended they open the box and shared what was inside - all CAC graded coins - something modern, old and in the middle. Not for me but had great interest.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back.
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
While we wait for clarification, here is a POSSIBLE explanation that would preserve a randomized distribution.
Single 'Base' Box - no label guarantee;
Single 'Prestige' Box - guaranteed Ag or Au label;
Single 'Player's' Box - guaranteed Au label.
Customer orders 10 'Base' boxes, with an extra guarantee of at least one Ag or Au label. Witter ships 9 'Base' boxes and 1 'Prestige' box, but only charges for 10 'Base' boxes. The substitute 'Prestige' box 'covers' the extra guarantee.
Works for the 5 'Prestige' boxes offer too, with an extra guarantee of at least one Au label. Witter ships 4 'Prestige' boxes and 1 'Player's' box, but only charges for 5 'Prestige' boxes. The substitute 'Player's' box 'covers' the extra guarantee.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back.
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
It's a SEALED case not 10 random boxes. It's really very simple. The INDEPENDENT packer creates groups of 30 coins (10x3) and then packs each case.
If you really need more explanation. Let's say there a total of 10 cases in the entire series. The coins in the series consist of the following:
The packer divides the 300 coins into 10 groups. Each group has one Gold, 3 silver and 26 regular. You then take each group of 30 coins and divide it into 10 subgroups of 3. You wrap each set of 3 into a box and the 10 boxes into a case.
Even if the packer knows where everything is, and they don't really need to care or keep track, Witter has no idea where anything is. That is why they go through the trouble and exorcist of hiring the TPGS to do the packing.
Except - Witter posted a video of one of their employees sealing the boxes and the boxes stacked on shelves. So at a minimum - at least one Witter employee knows where the good coins are.
Secondly - there's a huge incentive for the good boxes to go to social media influences with large online presences - hype and money for the next release.
Presumably, based on the video comments, that employee was cellophaning boxes at CACG and one could see a CAC sticker already sealing both ends of the box.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I actually don’t doubt at all that these were packed at CACG. Word on the street is that one of the bigger influencers got a terrible box, so I’m not convinced that there were any distribution issues here.
@PeakRarities said:
I actually don’t doubt at all that these were packed at CACG. Word on the street is that one of the bigger influencers got a terrible box, so I’m not convinced that there were any distribution issues here.
You can see other videos of Seth unboxing huge boxes of coins from CACG, which proves that CACG could not have packed the coins.
@PeakRarities said:
I actually don’t doubt at all that these were packed at CACG. Word on the street is that one of the bigger influencers got a terrible box, so I’m not convinced that there were any distribution issues here.
You can see other videos of Seth unboxing huge boxes of coins from CACG, which proves that CACG could not have packed the coins.
But it doesn’t. only proves that the boxes weren’t sealed right after they were encapsulated, but If I were Seth I would have also wanted the coins back in hand after grading for marketing purposes.
I haven’t wave paid attention to this very much, but if the official story is that CACG sealed the boxes, I would need to see more evidence that they weren’t.
@PeakRarities said:
I actually don’t doubt at all that these were packed at CACG. Word on the street is that one of the bigger influencers got a terrible box, so I’m not convinced that there were any distribution issues here.
You can see other videos of Seth unboxing huge boxes of coins from CACG, which proves that CACG could not have packed the coins.
But it doesn’t. only proves that the boxes weren’t sealed right after they were encapsulated, but If I were Seth I would have also wanted the coins back in hand after grading for marketing purposes.
I haven’t wave paid attention to this very much, but if the official story is that CACG sealed the boxes, I would need to see more evidence that they weren’t.
I don’t think the position was ever that CACG sealed the boxes - just that they graded the coins.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back.
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
It's a SEALED case not 10 random boxes. It's really very simple. The INDEPENDENT packer creates groups of 30 coins (10x3) and then packs each case.
If you really need more explanation. Let's say there a total of 10 cases in the entire series. The coins in the series consist of the following:
The packer divides the 300 coins into 10 groups. Each group has one Gold, 3 silver and 26 regular. You then take each group of 30 coins and divide it into 10 subgroups of 3. You wrap each set of 3 into a box and the 10 boxes into a case.
Even if the packer knows where everything is, and they don't really need to care or keep track, Witter has no idea where anything is. That is why they go through the trouble and exorcist of hiring the TPGS to do the packing.
Except - Witter posted a video of one of their employees sealing the boxes and the boxes stacked on shelves. So at a minimum - at least one Witter employee knows where the good coins are.
Secondly - there's a huge incentive for the good boxes to go to social media influences with large online presences - hype and money for the next release.
Strongly disagree. There's a much larger incentive to protect your reputation and the integrity of the mystery boxes.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Possibly, but it's really highly unlikely they are going to all that effort with no third party oversight, and with their target market either being oblivious or in on the game.
VB was also above reproach until the influencers started posting and the inconsistencies in VB's claims regarding distribution became clear to anyone paying attention. Also did not negatively impact demand in the slightest. Gamblers gonna get their fix, even if the game is rigged, and everyone else involved is only interested in the flip to the gamblers.
For what it’s worth, the player’s boxes didn’t appear to be commanding much if any of a premium for the few that I observed being sold on Whatnot. Certainly not enough to offset fees assuming the sellers had to pay MSRP for the boxes.
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Possibly, but it's really highly unlikely they are going to all that effort with no third party oversight, and with their target market either being oblivious or in on the game.
VB was also above reproach until the influencers started posting and the inconsistencies in VB's claims regarding distribution became clear to anyone paying attention. Also did not negatively impact demand in the slightest. Gamblers gonna get their fix, even if the game is rigged, and everyone else involved is only interested in the flip to the gamblers.
Not true. Watch the video. CACG is sealing the boxes
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Catbert said:
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
Because they are flat out copying what someone else did, and there was circumstantial evidence that someone else's marketing and coordination was not legitimate. That's why. Pretty much the same thing -- gambling disguised as something else, with no regulation, or trusted independent third party verification and oversight of the distribution of winning tickets.
Comments
And receiving about $225 in value or ~60% wholesale on $375 original price…
Not going to disagree that this is the most likely outcome but people are free to spend their $ how they please.
Competition is heating up:
Tim
Agree. But that's the point: if you don't like to gamble, stay out of the casino. However, don't stand in front of the casino and try to keep other people from entering.
Yea. Several whatnot notifications I’ve been seeing today have Witter Brick. More and more dealers on there just going to these unboxing streams and gambling games.
My Ebay Store
It sounds like about half of the boxes were sold directly to WhatNot resellers. Why weren't all boxes available on the Witter website? That doesn't seem like fair distribution and allows resellers to profit, putting the collector at a disadvantage because they have to pay the reseller's markup.
That was mentioned in this Coingeek video. Didn't explain why but probably done because they wanted to ensure a sell out and or enjoy the extra promotion and hype.
https://youtu.be/2cg4MCoCp_s
I could just 💩 a (Witter) Brick
Agreed, but no one "has to pay the reseller's markup." If everyone refused to do so, this would end overnight. But as long as money is burning holes in people's pockets, you can't complain about everyone up and down the line taking advantage of it.
Most of us agree these are not good deals for anyone other than Witter at MSRP, so there really is no reason to complain about Witter creating hype by guaranteeing sellouts, and about resellers taking advantage of people who derive fun by paying inflated prices for mystery boxes.
From their website:
"WitterBrick 1st Release is ready to be ripped open and added to your collection.
Each WitterBrick contains a minimum of 3 coins with a shot at all the different label styles and rare coins scattered throughout the release.
Orders of 10 will be shipped in a sealed case which is guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin.
Household order limit: 10 WitterBricks per transaction
Estimated shipment date: 1-5 Business Days after purchase
Regular price $375.00 USD”
So………. Just like Vault Box, there is no randomness in distribution. They have to know what is in each box if they are to guarantee a higher level coin if an order of 10 of the lower tier boxes. So that means they can presumably send cherry boxes to the people they choose to insure the ‘marketers and influencers’ score and get the hype going. Just like Vault Box, this appears to be fixed in a way that it is very hard to be Joe Collector to have an equal chance with the chosen ones for the better coins.
Hmm………….
Strike 1
Strike 2
It's all just a clever ruse and genius marketing. It's classic. None of us really expected this to be fair in the slightest - it's clear Witter is out for the promotion and money, no matter what they say. They played the game and did it well.
Coin Photographer.
No one disagrees with that for sure although I am not sure it is ‘genius’, it is really just an extension of VB with a new twist.
Best, SH
Perhaps, next up from Witter and CAC, a line on HSN or QVC? Seems like the inevitable conclusion. I’m 100% for making a buck. But this will not help numismatics in the slightest in the long run. Short term most likely. But, it’s a mockery.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
That's precisely why it's genius for marketing - they just stole the idea. No work needed.
I think it's a horrendous look for Witter from the professional side of the hobby, but I gotta give it to 'em as far a profit goes.
Coin Photographer.
Yup, not a good look at all.
Best, SH
Yup and they will dump all the crap they cannot sell on the market and it will end up in an LCS. They in turn will dump it to GC or another dealer and values will plummet. Oh well its harmless, "people are having fun".......right?
Not at all true. You have a pile of black, a pile of silver, a pile of gold labels. Your independent packer, and all 3 products have a TPG doing the packing, sinply puts one from each pile in an unidentified box. Totally random and the seller has no idea what's in any box.
Respectfully, I am not sure I agree with this objection.
The contents of each box is clearly not random. In fact, it cannot be due to the constraints (e.g., minimum box value, guaranteed "gold label coin" in "Player's Box", etc.).
However, it does not necessarily follow that the distribution is non-random.
According to the video posted by @ProofCollection (above @10:50), CACG finalizes the boxes, and Witter does not know what is in a specific box. If Witter does not know what is in a specific 'Player's/Prestige/Base' box, it is not possible for them to send the "cherry boxes" to particular customer.
NOT defending the 'Mystery Box' concept. Just saying that if it was handled as described, it would be difficult to channel the 'winners' to highly visible customers.
Kind of a shame that Witter Coin is teaching and has influence over a young numismatist program where they are indoctrinating the kids with this questionable gambling method to sell coins.
Yes it is completely true, unless, one wants to believe that paper labels of different types adds value enough to make 60% at the retail price boost up to 100% of the price of the box - 40% increase for the paper lables? I don’t think so but anyone that wants to is free to think that.
Seller must know what is in the box, IMO because if one ordered 10 boxes, guaranteed to contain at least one Gold label or Silver Label coin. Occam’s Razor would say the most preferred interpretation is the most simple, and knowing the distribution in the boxes is that in order to fulfill this obligation they make on their website. The alternative is that they did a probability matrix and discovered that it is nearly certain at least one coin in the budget boxes, if ordering 10, would contain a Gold or Silver label given a purely random distribution. That might be possible but probably none of these folks know how to build a probability matrix, or would even know that you could calculate the probabilities with a truly random distribution, or would hire someone to do that. So, again, using the Occam’s Razor, the most straightforward interpretation is that they must know what they are shipping out in each box, hence not a random distribution.
If so, then, there is tremendous opportunity for a non-random distribution and based on what we observed with Vault Box with the same types of issues, which was clearly non-random based on the empirical evidence, Joe Collector likely did not have the same chance as Joe Influencer with WitterBrick, to the more valuable coins……………….
If you want to think otherwise, please do so, I remain a skeptic with these kinds of marketing schemes……………………………..
See above post I just wrote…….
In theory a third party who loaded the coins in the boxes could group all the base level boxes in groups of 10 while ensuring that a gold or silver label is in each group. Once that is done they would stack the groups from front to back. If Witter gets an order for less than ten then they just pull from the front but if they get an order for a lot of 10 then they can pull a complete group from the back.
Not saying that’s how it’s going down but this would be a reasonable way to truly guarantee a hit in a group of 10 without Witter knowing what coins are where.
It's certainly sad, but anyone familiar with Witter U would not be surprised. They teach dealing, not numismatics. That means profiting.
Coin Photographer.
Yes that is possible, but it still means a non-random distribution, Say Joe Influencer orders a box, seller says, hey that is Mr. Influencer, take one from the back make he/she happy if we can bc thaz where the good stuff is. Say Joe Spacehayduke orders a box, seller says, ‘make sure you pull one from the front, we know this guy and…………’. So your scenario still seems to me to be non-random. Just sayin’.
Musical chairs is a fun game for those with the chairs.
Sure it’s a non-random distribution because of the guaranteed silver/gold label but if it was done by a third party and the seller was unaware of where the hit was in the group of ten boxes then how would the seller know where to grab from the back?
Your scenario is accurate if it was the seller that loaded everything or if the third party told the seller the placement of the hits which would defeat the purpose of having a third party load the boxes.
There was no such observation of vault box. There was one video that everyone was suspicious about. But keep the tin foil hat on, it looks good on you.
There is no reason for any of these firms to cheat. Cheating would kill their credibility and business. They are guaranteed to make money just by selling the boxes. So what would be the value in a TPGS helping them cheat? The boxes are all packed by NGC, PCGS abs CACG.
Please stop spreading offensive unfounded rumors.
The seller doesn't know what's in the front or the back. This continues to be unfounded libel.
Yesterday, I watched Witter Coins auction off these Witterbrick boxes being auctioned off. First off, I couldn't believe how many bidders were bidding and no one knew how many coins were in the brick nor what coins were in there. After the live auction ended they open the box and shared what was inside - all CAC graded coins - something modern, old and in the middle. Not for me but had great interest.
It’s gambling. Nothing more, nothing less.
It may or may not have an impact on the hobby as a whole. I, personally, take no issue with gambling, and I enjoy it on occasion.
This is not my preferred way to gamble, so it’s not for me. One observation is that historically, the only thing that has followed gambling, almost without fail, is regulation.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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Instagram
Facebook
I would welcome the vendor providing an explanation of how they can guarantee a certain level of quality if one buys 10 of the lowest level boxes that maintains a random distribution. Certainly I would be happy to be incorrect on my interpretation.
It's a SEALED case not 10 random boxes. It's really very simple. The INDEPENDENT packer creates groups of 30 coins (10x3) and then packs each case.
If you really need more explanation. Let's say there a total of 10 cases in the entire series. The coins in the series consist of the following:
10 gold labels
30 silver labels
260 regular labels.
The packer divides the 300 coins into 10 groups. Each group has one Gold, 3 silver and 26 regular. You then take each group of 30 coins and divide it into 10 subgroups of 3. You wrap each set of 3 into a box and the 10 boxes into a case.
Even if the packer knows where everything is, and they don't really need to care or keep track, Witter has no idea where anything is. That is why they go through the trouble and exorcist of hiring the TPGS to do the packing.
Herd mentality
While we wait for clarification, here is a POSSIBLE explanation that would preserve a randomized distribution.
Single 'Base' Box - no label guarantee;
Single 'Prestige' Box - guaranteed Ag or Au label;
Single 'Player's' Box - guaranteed Au label.
Customer orders 10 'Base' boxes, with an extra guarantee of at least one Ag or Au label. Witter ships 9 'Base' boxes and 1 'Prestige' box, but only charges for 10 'Base' boxes. The substitute 'Prestige' box 'covers' the extra guarantee.
Works for the 5 'Prestige' boxes offer too, with an extra guarantee of at least one Au label. Witter ships 4 'Prestige' boxes and 1 'Player's' box, but only charges for 5 'Prestige' boxes. The substitute 'Player's' box 'covers' the extra guarantee.
Except - Witter posted a video of one of their employees sealing the boxes and the boxes stacked on shelves. So at a minimum - at least one Witter employee knows where the good coins are.
Secondly - there's a huge incentive for the good boxes to go to social media influences with large online presences - hype and money for the next release.
Coin Photographer.
Presumably, based on the video comments, that employee was cellophaning boxes at CACG and one could see a CAC sticker already sealing both ends of the box.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I actually don’t doubt at all that these were packed at CACG. Word on the street is that one of the bigger influencers got a terrible box, so I’m not convinced that there were any distribution issues here.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
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Facebook
You can see other videos of Seth unboxing huge boxes of coins from CACG, which proves that CACG could not have packed the coins.
Coin Photographer.
But it doesn’t. only proves that the boxes weren’t sealed right after they were encapsulated, but If I were Seth I would have also wanted the coins back in hand after grading for marketing purposes.
I haven’t wave paid attention to this very much, but if the official story is that CACG sealed the boxes, I would need to see more evidence that they weren’t.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I don’t think the position was ever that CACG sealed the boxes - just that they graded the coins.
Coin Photographer.
Strongly disagree. There's a much larger incentive to protect your reputation and the integrity of the mystery boxes.
Sealing "boxes" or "cases"?
See 10:50 in the video @ProofCollection posted.
Edited to add the following link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cg4MCoCp_s&t=668s
Interesting. I’ll have to look into this more then.
Coin Photographer.
Possibly, but it's really highly unlikely they are going to all that effort with no third party oversight, and with their target market either being oblivious or in on the game.
VB was also above reproach until the influencers started posting and the inconsistencies in VB's claims regarding distribution became clear to anyone paying attention. Also did not negatively impact demand in the slightest. Gamblers gonna get their fix, even if the game is rigged, and everyone else involved is only interested in the flip to the gamblers.
For what it’s worth, the player’s boxes didn’t appear to be commanding much if any of a premium for the few that I observed being sold on Whatnot. Certainly not enough to offset fees assuming the sellers had to pay MSRP for the boxes.
Not true. Watch the video. CACG is sealing the boxes
There are a lot of cynics on our forum. I don't think I'm naive and I have seen no reason to believe that Witter is attempting to scam people by their program. Unless we have some direct evidence otherwise, why can't we assume that the marketing and coordination are legitimate?
edit grammar
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Because they are flat out copying what someone else did, and there was circumstantial evidence that someone else's marketing and coordination was not legitimate. That's why. Pretty much the same thing -- gambling disguised as something else, with no regulation, or trusted independent third party verification and oversight of the distribution of winning tickets.