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Is Judd 1776 Indeed The Most Valuable US Coin?

WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 879 ✭✭✭✭
edited June 5, 2024 4:43PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Some experts have stated Judd 1776 is the most valuable and important US coin. Based on 1) Unique 2) Tied to President Roosevelt 3) Large $20 Proof Coin In Exceptional Condition 4) Indian Portrait On A large $20 coin. 2 Sided Image Of The Indian And Saint Gaudens On The Reverse. There maybe other reasons not coming to mind. Estimated to surpass the $20 million of the 1933 $20 gold coin of which 10 or more exist. In a private collection since 1985 of a collector of magnificent Saint Gaudens works. Care to Agree Or Disagree.

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Comments

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 879 ✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    Never will come to market though. The Judd piece maybe eventually.

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walkerlover said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    Never will come to market though. The Judd piece maybe eventually.

    In that case, I would say yes to J-1776. The EB on breast Brasher is probably close but the fact that J-1776 is big and pretty and high grade should put it over the top.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
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  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2024 5:01PM

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @Walkerlover said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    Never will come to market though. The Judd piece maybe eventually.

    In that case, I would say yes to J-1776. The EB on breast Brasher is probably close but the fact that J-1776 is big and pretty and high grade should put it over the top.

    My opinion too on J-1776 if correct, because of the potential grade difference.

    I'd rank the 1849 $20 first myself.

    I'd rank the Brasher doubloon somewhat lower though consider it at least equally significant. Technically not a US coin though.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    The $50 gold Half Union at least deserves an honorable mention.

    Yes, based upon the estimated values in the "PCGS Million Dollar Club" last I checked.

    I still prefer the Garret slug proof which was estimated at $2.5MM last I checked.

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    The $50 gold Half Union at least deserves an honorable mention.

    Yes, based upon the estimated values in the "PCGS Million Dollar Club" last I checked.

    I still prefer the Garret slug proof which was estimated at $2.5MM last I checked.

    Agree, the Garrett Proof Slug is my #1 favorite coin of all time. Triple or quadruple that figure, though.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
    Website
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  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2024 5:05PM

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Would a second 1849 $20 be legal to own if it surfaced?

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @WCC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    The $50 gold Half Union at least deserves an honorable mention.

    Yes, based upon the estimated values in the "PCGS Million Dollar Club" last I checked.

    I still prefer the Garret slug proof which was estimated at $2.5MM last I checked.

    Agree, the Garrett Proof Slug is my #1 favorite coin of all time. Triple or quadruple that figure, though.

    I definitely recall seeing a $2.5MM estimated value before but have no idea why it was so low.

    Your estimate is more reasonable.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Connecticoin said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Would a second 1849 $20 be legal to own if it surfaced?

    I believe it would.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • PeakRaritiesPeakRarities Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @WCC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    The $50 gold Half Union at least deserves an honorable mention.

    Yes, based upon the estimated values in the "PCGS Million Dollar Club" last I checked.

    I still prefer the Garret slug proof which was estimated at $2.5MM last I checked.

    Agree, the Garrett Proof Slug is my #1 favorite coin of all time. Triple or quadruple that figure, though.

    I definitely recall seeing a $2.5MM estimated value before but have no idea why it was so low.

    Your estimate is more reasonable.

    Yea 2.5 is absurdly low, the coin sold for 500k all the way back in 1980.

    Founder- Peak Rarities
    Website
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    Facebook

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,323 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Scrooge McDuck uses the missing 1849 $20 as a pocket piece. ;)

    All glory is fleeting.
  • OmegaraptorOmegaraptor Posts: 539 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonder how much the 1849 Templeton Reid $25 would be worth if it ever surfaced.

    "You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."

  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1822 half eagle. A coin made for circulation that apparently circulated. With two lesser sisters tied up in the Smithsonian, the Pogue coin is my pick.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • ReadyFireAimReadyFireAim Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2024 12:23AM

    @Walkerlover said:
    Some experts have stated Judd 1776 is the most valuable and important US coin.
    Care to Agree Or Disagree.

    It was shot down for good reason. The young, effeminate boy in a chief's headdress appears weird.
    I prefer the low relief series 3 (Barber redesign) $20 over it for looks.
    I'll go with the 1933 as the most important & valuable coin.
    The J1776 is just an odd curiosity that nobody has seen for awhile.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    JUDD 2164 is probably worth “a hair more” than JUDD 1776, but it is close!! 😉

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @breakdown said:
    1822 half eagle. A coin made for circulation that apparently circulated. With two lesser sisters tied up in the Smithsonian, the Pogue coin is my pick.

    Good choice. Interesting word, "coin." The only 1933 Double Eagle that is legal to own is my choice for most valuable US coin.

    Are pattern pieces considered coins now?

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mr1931S said:
    Are pattern pieces considered coins now?

    Good question. Patterns were never monetized so are they technically actual coins?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,103 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:
    JUDD 2164 is probably worth “a hair more” than JUDD 1776, but it is close!! 😉

    Wondercoin.

    I’d be surprised if a pattern Ike Dollar is worth more than the J-1776

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ‘’Good question. Patterns were never monetized so are they technically actual coins?’’

    Were Bitcoin tokens monetized? I have heard they are the highest “coin” sales in history- yes?

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rexford said:

    @breakdown said:
    1822 half eagle. A coin made for circulation that apparently circulated. With two lesser sisters tied up in the Smithsonian, the Pogue coin is my pick.

    It already sold in 2021, and for less than half of the price of the 1933 $20, so that cannot be the answer.

    Thanks, Rexford. I am aware of the sale but still like my choice. The 1822 HE is undoubtedly a coin. It circulated and may have even been spent to buy something.
    The Pogues certainly valued it.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭✭✭

    J-1776 all day long!

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This pattern would be a great @dcarr production piece...with a little tweaking to distinguish from the original.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @breakdown said:

    @Rexford said:

    @breakdown said:
    1822 half eagle. A coin made for circulation that apparently circulated. With two lesser sisters tied up in the Smithsonian, the Pogue coin is my pick.

    It already sold in 2021, and for less than half of the price of the 1933 $20, so that cannot be the answer.

    Thanks, Rexford. I am aware of the sale but still like my choice. The 1822 HE is undoubtedly a coin. It circulated and may have even been spent to buy something.
    The Pogues certainly valued it.

    It's my #1 US issued for circulation coin too, though I know the grade and coin size mean it likely won't ever rank first for value.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2024 9:52AM

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The difference between "likely" and "indeed" the most valuable coin is a sale establishing value.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My vote would be with J-1776

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2024 3:02PM

    Please do not leave out my super rare Masonic lincoln made directly by the level 37 mint director...


  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    Coin Photographer.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Mark, have you personally seen the coin?

    Coin Photographer.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Yup

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was that coin messed with or does the Indian have acne

  • WalkerloverWalkerlover Posts: 879 ✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Was that coin messed with or does the Indian have acne

    Are you joking?

  • GoBustGoBust Posts: 594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd guess the first dollar ever made, lovely flowing hair, stars not yet invented, and the trillions of dollars made since. But it was the first dollar so that's something. Very undervalued by at least a factor of 100x (using wondercoins' logic on coins that we own which I agree with in this instance)....

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoBust said:
    I'd guess the first dollar ever made, lovely flowing hair, stars not yet invented, and the trillions of dollars made since. But it was the first dollar so that's something. Very undervalued by at least a factor of 100x (using wondercoins' logic on coins that we own which I agree with in this instance)....

    I don’t think it’s known which dollar was the first one ever made.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • NicNic Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Yup

    This thread is growing legs.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2024 10:26AM

    @MFeld said:

    @GoBust said:
    I'd guess the first dollar ever made, lovely flowing hair, stars not yet invented, and the trillions of dollars made since. But it was the first dollar so that's something. Very undervalued by at least a factor of 100x (using wondercoins' logic on coins that we own which I agree with in this instance)....

    I don’t think it’s known which dollar was the first one ever made.

    The unique J-18 is a pretty safe bet.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    AFAIK, the coin is not in Connecticut.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I could see a modern day Eliasberg with a complete set of $20 Saints 1907-1932 throwing caution to the winds to get that one legal 1933.
    There was one amazing set of gold patterns that was broken up long ago and never reassembled. Until somebody does attempt that, I cannot see the J-1776 selling for more than the one legal 1933.
    MOO

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Mark, have you personally seen the coin?

    Alex, I haven’t seen it - I don’t even know if it exists.
    However, if I had seen it, I don’t think I’d reply to your question. Because a reply of “yes” would lead to additional questions, which I wouldn’t be at liberty to answer.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Was that coin messed with or does the Indian have acne

    The face does have an unusual texture, but it’s 100% as made.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2024 3:29PM

    @Walkerlover said:

    @JimTyler said:
    Was that coin messed with or does the Indian have acne

    Are you joking?

    I'm not.

    It's a dermatologist's dream coin. A benzoyl peroxide special

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MFeld said:

    @FlyingAl said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?

    We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
    Still, I’d go with J-1776.

    Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
    .

    Let's hear about it - please?

    Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.

    This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature. :smile:

    That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.

    Mark, have you personally seen the coin?

    Alex, I haven’t seen it - I don’t even know if it exists.
    However, if I had seen it, I don’t think I’d reply to your question. Because a reply of “yes” would lead to additional questions, which I wouldn’t be at liberty to answer.

    Mark, sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to J-1776.

    Coin Photographer.

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