@DeplorableDan said:
If we’re playing hypotheticals, would we then have to consider the 1849 $20 at the Smithsonian?
We wouldn’t have to but we should.😉 And don’t forget the possibility of a rumored additional 1849 $20 surfacing some day.
Still, I’d go with J-1776.
Don't give up on the 1849. The rumor I heard was pretty convincing
.
Let's hear about it - please?
Let's just say that if the rumor was correct, neither one of us is getting the coin anytime soon.
This statement feels rather Connecticut-ish in nature.
That was my first thought, and my subsequent one.
Mark, have you personally seen the coin?
Alex, I haven’t seen it - I don’t even know if it exists.
However, if I had seen it, I don’t think I’d reply to your question. Because a reply of “yes” would lead to additional questions, which I wouldn’t be at liberty to answer.
Mark, sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to J-1776.
In that case, yes, for the first time, more than 40 years ago.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PerryHall said:
Good question. Patterns were never monetized so are they technically actual coins?
Roger Burdette says "monetized" was a made up word that was never used before legal issues surrounding the 1933.
In other words, he can't find the word ever being used by mint personnel.
"Received my the cashier" was the term used in internal mint correspondence.
@PerryHall said:
Good question. Patterns were never monetized so are they technically actual coins?
Roger Burdette says "monetized" was a made up word that was never used before legal issues surrounding the 1933.
In other words, he can't find the word ever being used by mint personnel.
"Received my the cashier" was the term used in internal mint correspondence.
Deep (or not) Thought - Every word is a made up word which at some point had never been used before.
Yep, ‘monetized’ was a totally made up concept that the Treasury Department used in their successful case to retain the ten 1933 $20 coins belonging to the heirs of Izzy Switt.
@MrEureka is correct that patterns were not made as ‘money,’ but there are sure a lot of them out there that show signs of passing as money.
Goloid dollars come to mind, as do some of the (set of 12?) ‘1858’ cent varieties that were struck and marketed in such generous quantities.
And no one waved the mythical Monetization Wand over any of them.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
Equivalent collector preference to Pattern coins or another candidate coin being discussed?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
Equivalent collector preference to Pattern coins or another candidate coin being discussed?
I was thinking in the context of US coinage generally.
I have no idea what a potential 1964 Peace dollar should be worth, but I'd guess (and that's all it is) somewhere in the $5MM $10MM range at most i(depending upon quality) f legal to own and unique or really, really close to it. Any potential buyer would presumably assume that others potentially exist but even if not, is it really worth more than the Pogue 1804 dollar or 1794 SP-66?
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
@Married2Coins said:
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
Equivalent collector preference to Pattern coins or another candidate coin being discussed?
I was thinking in the context of US coinage generally.
I have no idea what a potential 1964 Peace dollar should be worth, but I'd guess (and that's all it is) somewhere in the $5MM $10MM range at most i(depending upon quality) f legal to own and unique or really, really close to it. Any potential buyer would presumably assume that others potentially exist but even if not, is it really worth more than the Pogue 1804 dollar or 1794 SP-66?
I don't think so.
I see no reason why it might not go over $10 million. It has as much or more interest than the 1933 $20. People have been speculating about it for 60 years. The 33s were known, though illegal. The 64 is Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
I see no reason why it might not go over $10 million. It has as much or more interest than the 1933 $20. People have been speculating about it for 60 years. The 33s were known, though illegal. The 64 is Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
There are a lot more bigger budget collectors interested in the higher profile gold coinage than are likely interested in this one. If the 1933 DE was any other metal, it's value would be a fraction. In the list of the top 10, 20, 50 or any number anyone wants to choose, it's dominated by gold coins, and the larger the better to those who can afford it.
I can reasonably infer no Peace dollar collector is likely (not definitively) able to afford it, as I doubt there is even one collection worth $1MM.
I'm aware any number of bigger budget US collectors will buy coins they don't normally buy, but to a point only.
I'd rank the 1804 Class I dollars first, but US collecting seems to prefer the 1794 now. I don't think a 1964 Peace dollar would sell for the same or more than the top 1794's.
I don't think collectors find this coin as interesting as you infer. It's a novelty which I don't see fitting into any defined collection, other than Peace dollars.
I see no reason why it might not go over $10 million. It has as much or more interest than the 1933 $20. People have been speculating about it for 60 years. The 33s were known, though illegal. The 64 is Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
There are a lot more bigger budget collectors interested in the higher profile gold coinage than are likely interested in this one. If the 1933 DE was any other metal, it's value would be a fraction. In the list of the top 10, 20, 50 or any number anyone wants to choose, it's dominated by gold coins, and the larger the better to those who can afford it.
I can reasonably infer no Peace dollar collector is likely (not definitively) able to afford it, as I doubt there is even one collection worth $1MM.
I'm aware any number of bigger budget US collectors will buy coins they don't normally buy, but to a point only.
I'd rank the 1804 Class I dollars first, but US collecting seems to prefer the 1794 now. I don't think a 1964 Peace dollar would sell for the same or more than the top 1794's.
I don't think collectors find this coin as interesting as you infer. It's a novelty which I don't see fitting into any defined collection, other than Peace dollars.
The 1933 was originally bought by someone who didn't collect gold or double eagles. Trophy coins are trophies.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
The 1804 dollars and 1913 Liberty Nickels would like a word.
I've heard rumors for decades about the 64 Peace, whether it truly exists or not, it bugs me that the government would take it - or any coin - if it was publicized
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
@tcollects said:
I've heard rumors for decades about the 64 Peace, whether it truly exists or not, it bugs me that the government would take it - or any coin - if it was publicized
So if your coins were stolen, would it bother you if the police seized them from the later owners?
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
We all make assumptions on this subject. No one can avoid it. I'm assuming potential buyers find this coin less interesting than you do, especially relative to others in a roughly comparable price range. It's academic anyway, since there is no realistic prospect it will ever be sold, assuming it actually even exists.
I'm aware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
The 1804 dollars and 1913 Liberty Nickels would like a word.
Yes, I know. I've looked at sales prices of US coinage extensively, probably a lot more than the majority of posters on this forum. For J-1776, my recollection is it last sold publicly in the late 70's soon after I started collecting.
There are many variables impacting a hypothetical sale of this coin that likely would never happen even if publicly confirmed to exist which it hasn't.
Variables such as how many exist or are believed to exist, what's the quality or quality distribution, general market conditions at the time of the sale, and what's the buyer's attitude toward any prospective purchase.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
We all make assumptions on this subject. No one can avoid it. I'm assuming potential buyers find this coin less interesting than you do, especially relative to others in a roughly comparable price range. It's academic anyway, since there is no realistic prospect it will ever be sold, assuming it actually even exists.
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it.
What are all of those gold mega-priced "trophy" coins that still easily outnumber all non-gold ones combined? There would need to be a lot of them to easily outnumber the 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels gem 1794 dollars and1885 Trade dollars
OK, an exaggeration. But yes, that's what I had in mind. Something like 20 UHR and a dozen 1927-D DE as examples each worth $1MM or over several million.
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it
>
What are all of those gold mega-priced "trophy" coins that still easily outnumber all non-gold ones combined? There would need to be a lot of them to easily outnumber the 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, gem 1794 dollars and 1885 Trade dollars.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
WCC Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭✭✭
June 19, 2024 9:02AM
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it
>
What are all of those gold mega-priced "trophy" coins that still easily outnumber all non-gold ones combined? There would need to be a lot of them to easily outnumber the 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, gem 1794 dollars and 1885 Trade dollars.
I'm making some assumptions primarily on the quality of the coins.
I was looking at the Heritage archives yesterday. Looking at what has actually sold, it's my inference that comparable earlier proofs (DE and other denominations for earlier dates) to those that have sold will be worth similar amounts. Same for top MS or near it for pre-1834 gold, Saints, and DE. One example was an 1924-S Saint MS-67 which sold for just above $1MM and only a semi-key date. Another one was an 1860's gem proof DE. Combined, it's not a small number.
To your counterpoint, I'm also aware this applies to the highest graded early dollars and a few others such as the 1884 and 1885 proofs which you identified. Most of the other denominations don't have many and some none at all. Early copper seems to be second. Halves looks to be only 1794, 1796, and 1797, though maybe a few of the 1838-O might now quality. Dimes look to be 10 total, nine 1894-S and the unique 1873-CC.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
EB on breast brasher sold privately over 10 mil. The EB on wing in gem came very close (9.5 maybe)?
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
EB on breast brasher sold privately over 10 mil. The EB on wing in gem came very close (9.5 maybe)?
Thanks, but I was limiting it to US Mint issues. If we include colonial and territorial gold, the results change somewhat.
Comments
This maybe my all time favorite design. Years ago, Rick Snow made a copper copy which I still have
In that case, yes, for the first time, more than 40 years ago.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Roger Burdette says "monetized" was a made up word that was never used before legal issues surrounding the 1933.
In other words, he can't find the word ever being used by mint personnel.
"Received my the cashier" was the term used in internal mint correspondence.
My Saint Set
Deep (or not) Thought - Every word is a made up word which at some point had never been used before.
The mint should do this coin. I would buy the heck out of it.
Liberia issued one in 2000. Legend is the only noticeable difference.
Yes, they’re coins, but they are not money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yep, ‘monetized’ was a totally made up concept that the Treasury Department used in their successful case to retain the ten 1933 $20 coins belonging to the heirs of Izzy Switt.
@MrEureka is correct that patterns were not made as ‘money,’ but there are sure a lot of them out there that show signs of passing as money.
Goloid dollars come to mind, as do some of the (set of 12?) ‘1858’ cent varieties that were struck and marketed in such generous quantities.
And no one waved the mythical Monetization Wand over any of them.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
During a Summer Seminar in the late 80's, Michael Fazzari told us that when he worked at ANACS, a Maryland coin dealer took his boss to lunch to show him a 1964 Peace dollar. He never got to see the coin for himself he but knew the dealer. When his boss returned, he said the coin was 100% authentic and that the dealer wished to make sure it was authentic before buying it. He said Hopkins refused to accept it for certification because ANACS did not wish to get involved with that coin. I should think a gem (?) 1964 Peace dollar would be right up there with a 1933 Saint as far as history, story, and rarity.
If the coin exists - and it’s not difficult for me to believe that it does - the fact that it would almost certainly be seized, if made public, should keep its whereabouts a secret. And tied into that, its price in any private transaction would probably be much, much lower than if it could legally be sold publicly.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I Agree with you Your Royal Highness. However, it is a neat coin.
Absolutely!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Even if the coin was unique and legal to own, I don't think it would be worth anywhere near as much. It's still a Peace dollar. The design and series do not have an equivalent collector preference.
Equivalent collector preference to Pattern coins or another candidate coin being discussed?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was thinking in the context of US coinage generally.
I have no idea what a potential 1964 Peace dollar should be worth, but I'd guess (and that's all it is) somewhere in the $5MM $10MM range at most i(depending upon quality) f legal to own and unique or really, really close to it. Any potential buyer would presumably assume that others potentially exist but even if not, is it really worth more than the Pogue 1804 dollar or 1794 SP-66?
I don't think so.
As much as what? The 1933 Double > @WCC said:
I see no reason why it might not go over $10 million. It has as much or more interest than the 1933 $20. People have been speculating about it for 60 years. The 33s were known, though illegal. The 64 is Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
Yes, or as much as the other coins I listed. I don't think there would be enough competition for it.
There are a lot more bigger budget collectors interested in the higher profile gold coinage than are likely interested in this one. If the 1933 DE was any other metal, it's value would be a fraction. In the list of the top 10, 20, 50 or any number anyone wants to choose, it's dominated by gold coins, and the larger the better to those who can afford it.
I can reasonably infer no Peace dollar collector is likely (not definitively) able to afford it, as I doubt there is even one collection worth $1MM.
I'm aware any number of bigger budget US collectors will buy coins they don't normally buy, but to a point only.
I'd rank the 1804 Class I dollars first, but US collecting seems to prefer the 1794 now. I don't think a 1964 Peace dollar would sell for the same or more than the top 1794's.
I don't think collectors find this coin as interesting as you infer. It's a novelty which I don't see fitting into any defined collection, other than Peace dollars.
The 1933 was originally bought by someone who didn't collect gold or double eagles. Trophy coins are trophies.
There is also no evidence that if the 1933 were silver that it would be less valuable. You can assume that, but you already mentioned the silver 1794 coin which actually is evidence against your assumption.
What I wrote is generically accurate. It's not universally true in every instance. Look at the data yourself. It's plainly evident.
I'm using inference just like you, except that my assumptions differ from yours.
The 1804 dollars and 1913 Liberty Nickels would like a word.
I've heard rumors for decades about the 64 Peace, whether it truly exists or not, it bugs me that the government would take it - or any coin - if it was publicized
I haven't made any assumptions. I'm looking at ALL the trophy coins. You're choosing to exclude some based on your assumptions about composition despite the existence of $10 million coins that are NOT gold.
I don't think anyone can know the "value" of trophy coins. It is quite possible that the next sale of the 1933 DE is lower than the last sale. It's a singular sale of a singular item in a very thin market.
So if your coins were stolen, would it bother you if the police seized them from the later owners?
We all make assumptions on this subject. No one can avoid it. I'm assuming potential buyers find this coin less interesting than you do, especially relative to others in a roughly comparable price range. It's academic anyway, since there is no realistic prospect it will ever be sold, assuming it actually even exists.
I'm aware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it.
Yes, I know. I've looked at sales prices of US coinage extensively, probably a lot more than the majority of posters on this forum. For J-1776, my recollection is it last sold publicly in the late 70's soon after I started collecting.
There are many variables impacting a hypothetical sale of this coin that likely would never happen even if publicly confirmed to exist which it hasn't.
Variables such as how many exist or are believed to exist, what's the quality or quality distribution, general market conditions at the time of the sale, and what's the buyer's attitude toward any prospective purchase.
OK, an exaggeration. But yes, that's what I had in mind. Something like 20 UHR and a dozen 1927-D DE as examples each worth $1MM or over several million.
WCC Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭✭✭
June 19, 2024 9:02AM
I'm unaware it's unpredictable how much one or a handful of buyers might choose to pay. There are only two coins to my knowledge that have ever sold for over $10MM (1933 DE and 1794 dollar) and only a very low additional number likely to sell for more currently where not even one might be silver or base metal.
The metal composition isn't the most important factor. I'm aware that buyers aren't paying millions for a coin with about $2,000 or less in metal content. In the total population of mega-priced "trophy" coins, there are still easily more gold than all others combined, by a multiple. It's not an accident. For a variety of reasons, the most affluent collectors prefer it
What are all of those gold mega-priced "trophy" coins that still easily outnumber all non-gold ones combined? There would need to be a lot of them to easily outnumber the 1804 dollars, 1913 Liberty nickels, gem 1794 dollars and 1885 Trade dollars.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm making some assumptions primarily on the quality of the coins.
I was looking at the Heritage archives yesterday. Looking at what has actually sold, it's my inference that comparable earlier proofs (DE and other denominations for earlier dates) to those that have sold will be worth similar amounts. Same for top MS or near it for pre-1834 gold, Saints, and DE. One example was an 1924-S Saint MS-67 which sold for just above $1MM and only a semi-key date. Another one was an 1860's gem proof DE. Combined, it's not a small number.
To your counterpoint, I'm also aware this applies to the highest graded early dollars and a few others such as the 1884 and 1885 proofs which you identified. Most of the other denominations don't have many and some none at all. Early copper seems to be second. Halves looks to be only 1794, 1796, and 1797, though maybe a few of the 1838-O might now quality. Dimes look to be 10 total, nine 1894-S and the unique 1873-CC.
EB on breast brasher sold privately over 10 mil. The EB on wing in gem came very close (9.5 maybe)?
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Thanks, but I was limiting it to US Mint issues. If we include colonial and territorial gold, the results change somewhat.