@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
@Walkerlover said:
These are the coins I want not average coins dealers want to dump.
I have 0 percent returns from 7 or so coins that I have sold on EBay, because I deal in super eye appealing coins!!!!
Another possible explanation for the lack of returns is that a lot of buyers treat sellers better than you do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
Bought from G.C. I go for great eye 👁️ appeal.. Can’t help it I love ❤️ gorgeous coins.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
@NewEnglandRarities doesn’t sound the least bit angry. In fact, he sounds quite calm and reasonable and continues to try to help you.
Perhaps you’re mistaking your own well earned feelings of guilt with anger on his part.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Have you asked yourself why so few forum members have come to your defense? One explanation would be a conspiracy. Another, far more likely one is…give it some thought and see if you can guess.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
With all due respect to @ManifestDestiny , don't intend to step on your toes😉
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
@NewEnglandRarities doesn’t sound the least bit angry. In fact, he sounds quite calm and reasonable and continues to try to help you.
Perhaps you’re mistaking your own well earned feelings of guilt with anger on his part.
You don’t see the excessive vitriol projected by most of the poster’s. And I DIDNT REVIVE this thread my main detractors did to cause controversy
Interesting how it has progressed, with differing opinions on the topic of returns of coins that have been purchased under circumstances where the buyer has not been able to view the coin in hand before a purchase is made.
Sellers who offer a return provide a benefit to a buyer (a chance to view the coin in hand before committing 100% to a purchase, with the only cost to either side being shipping). This feature provided by a seller is something that gives buyers a comfort level and thus an increased willingness to bid on the coin (and bid high). As an occasional buyer of coins on line I appreciate a return privilege.
As a sometime seller on the BST I always offer a return privilege, no questions asked. I have only had one BST buyer return the coin I sent him.
As a buyer of coins on line (mostly EBay) I carefully look at the photos of the coins and use my knowledge base (gained since I returned to the hobby in 1998 as an adult) to find cherries to pick. Some photos are not very good and do not show the coin as it looks in hand (bad focus, bad lighting, etc.). However there are tells, which have led me to successful online cherrypicks.
Today is an example. Last week I bought an OGP 1956 Proof Set on Ebay, thinking the half dollar possibly was a 1956 Type 1 Cameo half dollar. The photos were out of focus, but I thought the half had promise. The EBay seller offered a return privilege.
Today I received the proof set. The half dollar contained therein unfortunately was not a Type 1. It is a Type 2. Fortunately it looks to be a high grade Cameo half dollar (a very nice coin, but in the Franklin proof series one of the more common examples).
Should I return the proof set to the seller using the return privilege???????????????????
My choice is no. I will not return the set. If I did so, I would not be comfortable with that choice.
I rolled the dice, hoping to score a Cameo Type 1 half dollar. I did not and I will live with the outcome of the gamble.
If the half dollar had been a Type 1 Cameo half I would pat myself on the back. I would not think that I should contact the seller, tell him/her that the proof set they sold me has a very valuable variety, and offer to pay more money.
To each his/her own on using or not using a return privilege. There are benefits and detriments to using a return privilege. Buyers who use it too much will suffer in the long run; and buyers who refuse to ever consider using it may also suffer in the long run.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
@NewEnglandRarities doesn’t sound the least bit angry. In fact, he sounds quite calm and reasonable and continues to try to help you.
Perhaps you’re mistaking your own well earned feelings of guilt with anger on his part.
You don’t see the excessive vitriol projected by most of the poster’s. And I DIDNT REVIVE this thread my main detractors did to cause controversy
You indicated that @NewEnglandRarities was “very angry”. I replied that he sounded quite calm and reasonable and was continuing to try to help you. So you switched to talking about other posters. I think that’s called “deflecting”.😉
Your main detractors didn’t cause the controversy - your behavior did. And by the way, I’m not angry.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Have you asked yourself why so few forum members have come to your defense? One explanation would be a conspiracy. Another, far more likely one is…give it some thought and see if you can guess.
These are not auction returns, and I still bought 60% or more from my purchases. So why the extreme fuss. At GC I bought four coins and returned one for damage in 2 years!!
Big detracting line or possible scratch on the Buffalo Nickel see above
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
@NewEnglandRarities doesn’t sound the least bit angry. In fact, he sounds quite calm and reasonable and continues to try to help you.
Perhaps you’re mistaking your own well earned feelings of guilt with anger on his part.
You don’t see the excessive vitriol projected by most of the poster’s. And I DIDNT REVIVE this thread my main detractors did to cause controversy
You indicated that @NewEnglandRarities was “very angry”. I replied that he sounded quite calm and reasonable and was continuing to try to help you. So you switched to talking about other posters. I think that’s called “deflecting”.😉
Your main detractors didn’t cause the controversy - your behavior did. And by the way, I’m not angry.
So what percentage of coins do I need to keep to please the dealers who are so upset with me? And look at my record with GC. Over 2 years, one returned coin well under their limit of one per month, and you can see the large line on the Buffalo justifying my return . Why are they so mad 😡 at me? I didn’t return 3/4 of my coin purchases. Please explain what’s going on as I don’t really see what I did so unethical to warrant this degree of criticism. I respect your opinion as you seem to be fair and level headed. And I do form my final opinion on coin purchases almost all the time so whose time am I wasting?
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Have you asked yourself why so few forum members have come to your defense? One explanation would be a conspiracy. Another, far more likely one is…give it some thought and see if you can guess.
These are not auction returns, and I still bought 60% or more from my purchases. So why the extreme fuss. At GC I bought four coins and returned one for damage in 2 years!!
Big detracting line or possible scratch on the Buffalo Nickel see above
Thanks for showing us the MS65 1938-D nickel you returned. I can certainly understand why you felt you had to resort to bidding for one in an auction instead of buying off of a website or at a show. After all, the current PCGS population is a minuscule 25,510 pieces.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
By the numbers, those are not good buyer feedback data. The situation startles us who sell. You admitted that you are liable to be unreliable. You’re kinda asking them to hose themselves.
@Fraz said:
By the numbers, those are not good buyer feedback data. The situation startles us who sell. You admitted that you are liable to be unreliable. You’re kinda asking them to hose themselves.
I don’t really understand your point respectfully?
When I sell something I don’t like to imagine that a think tank will determine if I have to reverse the deal.
I am a part of the think tank that you pester and I do not want to encourage anyone that approval shopping on eBay is okay, because I am metaphorically hosing myself.
Your innocent inquiry shows that you will inconvenience a seller on whimsy.
@dhikewhitney said:
"I could probably recoup most of the CAC fee if I ever sell "
I doubt that for common, relatively modern coins. It would likely be correct for rare coins and pre-1933 gold coins
I bought my coins at fair prices and they are above average in eye appeal so yes it’s possible I can recover the CAC fees.
Fair ?
Wholesale or retail ?
If wholesale, how far back of bid ?
Professionals know how to buy and sell coins to make a profit and even they don't always get it right.
I think it's a lot tougher to sell and net the cost of grading fees and CAC for common modern coins with limited collector appeal.
@Project Numismatics said:
Dealers talk to each other. Don’t be surprised if you end up blocked by numerous sellers on eBay.
Okay I can live with that as I have virtually completed my set. But there are thousands of sellers so should I really be worried?
There are probably a few dozen dealers that deal in high eye appeal CAC approved coins. If half of them blocked you, is that a problem for you? I don’t know.
It’s a smaller community than you think. All you have in this hobby is your reputation. You’ve gotten good and accurate feedback here that excessive returns is damaging to your reputation. You don’t seem to care.
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Have you asked yourself why so few forum members have come to your defense? One explanation would be a conspiracy. Another, far more likely one is…give it some thought and see if you can guess.
These are not auction returns, and I still bought 60% or more from my purchases. So why the extreme fuss. At GC I bought four coins and returned one for damage in 2 years!!
Big detracting line or possible scratch on the Buffalo Nickel see above
Thank you for proving my point.
You don't see alot of obvious faults... obviously.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Just read this thread. Every time you speak, you sound self-centered, cheep, inconsiderate of others and completely unable to see how others might see your behavior and words. I.e., you have a complete lack of social intelligence. Unfortunately, if you don't change you will not be successful in life and probably have few friends (let alone dealers who want to sell you coins) so I feel bad for you. You shouldn't feel like a criminal but you should try to understand why people are reacting the way they are and then try to change.
The final decision is mine as I have my own strong opinion after seeing it in hand. I like to have other opinions and thoughts on the coin but to see what others think but if I am not mostly happy I will pass. And it’s always more important to first like the coin than whether it passes CAC. But my whole collection is 100% CAC and I prefer the sticker
@Walkerlover said:
So what percentage of coins do I need to keep to please the dealers who are so upset with me? And look at my record with GC. Over 2 years, one returned coin well under their limit of one per month, and you can see the large line on the Buffalo justifying my return . Why are they so mad 😡 at me? I didn’t return 3/4 of my coin purchases. Please explain what’s going on as I don’t really see what I did so unethical to warrant this degree of criticism. I respect your opinion as you seem to be fair and level headed. And I do form my final opinion on coin purchases almost all the time so whose time am I wasting?
I'll give you my answer, even though you didn't ask me. You can thank me later for the gratuitous advice.
I expect that the vast majority of serious coin collectors keep very close to 100% of the coins they purchase online.
I have purchased well over 2,000 coins online. Of those, a few more than 150 have been certified coins (think "expensive"). I have returned nine coins, total, ever. And none of those coins was one whose photo I saw before I bought it (or was certified). I have never been blacklisted by a vendor (although I have blacklisted vendors).
I have never returned a coin I purchased from any auction (I've bought about 25 coins from GC, and more than that in total from eBay, Heritage, David Lawrence and a few others.
I don't think I'm any more "virtuous" than the vast majority of serious collectors. Most of us look carefully at the photos provided; we won't buy if the photo isn't high quality. We won't buy if there's something we see in the coin that bothers us. And, when we do buy, we're adults about living up to our end of the bargain (which is, obviously, that, unless there's a significant surprise not disclosed in the description/photo(s), we don't return the coin just because we didn't get a "bargain"). We're looking to do honest business with honest business people; a fair deal. You seem to be looking for a great bargain (in particular, coins that will get CAC approval after you buy), and when you only get a fair deal (the coin was fairly graded, but not under-graded or likely to sticker), you send it back. You're within your rights, but the message here is that many of us feel that that is not a reasonable way to do business. Were I an online vendor (I thank goodness I'm not), I would not want to do business with you, judging from what I've read over time on this forum.
You seem surprised and angry at the reception you're getting here. Perhaps if you read what I have written, and thinkabout how you do business, you'll get an inkling. Question: Would you want a customer like you (always looking for an edge, who returns coins that don't give the buyer an edge)?
@Walkerlover said:
So what percentage of coins do I need to keep to please the dealers who are so upset with me? And look at my record with GC. Over 2 years, one returned coin well under their limit of one per month, and you can see the large line on the Buffalo justifying my return . Why are they so mad 😡 at me? I didn’t return 3/4 of my coin purchases. Please explain what’s going on as I don’t really see what I did so unethical to warrant this degree of criticism. I respect your opinion as you seem to be fair and level headed. And I do form my final opinion on coin purchases almost all the time so whose time am I wasting?
I'll give you my answer, even though you didn't ask me. You can thank me later for the gratuitous advice.
I expect that the vast majority of serious coin collectors keep very close to 100% of the coins they purchase online.
I have purchased well over 2,000 coins online. Of those, a few more than 150 have been certified coins (think "expensive"). I have returned nine coins, total, ever. And none of those coins was one whose photo I saw before I bought it (or was certified). I have never been blacklisted by a vendor (although I have blacklisted vendors).
I have never returned a coin I purchased from any auction (I've bought about 25 coins from GC, and more than that in total from eBay, Heritage, David Lawrence and a few others.
I don't think I'm any more "virtuous" than the vast majority of serious collectors. Most of us look carefully at the photos provided; we won't buy if the photo isn't high quality. We won't buy if there's something we see in the coin that bothers us. And, when we do buy, we're adults about living up to our end of the bargain (which is, obviously, that, unless there's a significant surprise not disclosed in the description/photo(s), we don't return the coin just because we didn't get a "bargain"). We're looking to do honest business with honest business people; a fair deal. You seem to be looking for a great bargain (in particular, coins that will get CAC approval after you buy), and when you only get a fair deal (the coin was fairly graded, but not under-graded or likely to sticker), you send it back. You're within your rights, but the message here is that many of us feel that that is not a reasonable way to do business. Were I an online vendor (I thank goodness I'm not), I would not want to do business with you, judging from what I've read over time on this forum.
You seem surprised and angry at the reception you're getting here. Perhaps if you read what I have written, and thinkabout how you do business, you'll get an inkling. Question: Would you want a customer like you (always looking for an edge, who returns coins that don't give the buyer an edge)?
Thank you at least you gave me a clear cut explanation instead of insults in a civil manner. I appreciate that and can better understand the concern of the forum members. I am 72 and have limited resources to travel so I am forced to buy online. I wish there was a major show in NYC. Luckily I have completed my type set minus the Franklin. I will screen my next purchase much more carefully.
How come when it is anyone else, we get accurate answers. I do not think that the coin in the OP will CAC. I am not an expert. Only do to others what you expect them to do back. Maybe I'll put this in my signature.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Off topic a bit. I'm beginning to think that the OP's desire to play the CAC game has corrupted his thinking (as it has with many) vs gaining skills to at least know what quality looks like regardless of the sticker status. edit to add - AND to be happy with a coin without a sticker.
@Catbert said:
Off topic a bit. I'm beginning to think that the OP's desire to play the CAC game has corrupted his thinking (as it has with many) vs gaining skills to at least know what quality looks like regardless of the sticker status. edit to add - AND to be happy with a coin without a sticker.
I cannot be happy with a coin without a sticker as my whole collection which I am proud of has all CAC stickers. I pick my coins first for 👁️ appeal and quality but I need the validation from CAC that I own a coin that is at least B quality for the grade and doesn’t have any apparent surface issues or high point friction. And I learned what I know from my few CAC rejections and valuable knowledge received on this esteemed world class forum. I can see you are anti CAC for whatever reason and don’t want others to enjoy the immense benefits CAC has contributed to our wonderful hobby
I collected as a YN from age 7 to about age 22 (1963-1978) and then spent a couple of decades away from the hobby. After returning to the hobby as an adult in 1998 (42 years old) I collected again, mostly raw coins. In 2021 I started submitting coins to PCGS for grading and continued submitting in 2022 and in 2023. That has been an interesting and eye opening experience that on the whole has been positive.
I now have numerous PCGS graded coins. None have been to CAC and none have any stickers.
At this point in time I do not need or want the PCGS grade opinion for my graded coins to be reviewed by a second set of eyes. Perhaps that will change down the road, particularly if I leave the kiddie pool area of the hobby.
@SanctionII said:
I collected as a YN from age 7 to about age 22 (1963-1978) and then spent a couple of decades away from the hobby. After returning to the hobby as an adult in 1998 (42 years old) I collected again, mostly raw coins. In 2021 I started submitting coins to PCGS for grading and continued submitting in 2022 and in 2023. That has been an interesting and eye opening experience that on the whole has been positive.
I now have numerous PCGS graded coins. None have been to CAC and none have any stickers.
At this point in time I do not need or want the PCGS grade opinion for my graded coins to be reviewed by a second set of eyes. Perhaps that will change down the road, particularly if I leave the kiddie pool area of the hobby.
That’s fine everyone should do as they feel comfortable. Do you have the expertise to grade at a professional level to detect surface issues and coins that are overgraded? Or you don’t care and are satisfied just with the PCGS opinion. Maybe your coins are fairly inexpensive and it’s not necessary for you to have that sticker. It’s all good 😊
@Walkerlover said:
I bought a $300 SLQ PCGS 64, but it failed CAC. Loved the coin but sold it as I cannot have a AU 58+ masquerading as a legitimate MS coin.
I’ve been on the sidelines for this thread but your last statement has me scratching my head.
Since when does a PCGS MS64 coin become an AU58+ just because it doesn’t CAC? Your logic doesn’t make sense with your statement. Does that mean a MS62 becomes an AU55 if it doesn’t CAC?
Members I have done business with: Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
@Walkerlover said:
I bought a $300 SLQ PCGS 64, but it failed CAC. Loved the coin but sold it as I cannot have a AU 58+ masquerading as a legitimate MS coin.
I’ve been on the sidelines for this thread but your last statement has me scratching my head.
Since when does a PCGS MS64 coin become an AU58+ just because it doesn’t CAC? Your logic doesn’t make sense with your statement. Does that mean a MS62 becomes an AU55 if it doesn’t CAC?
It does for sure when JA points out very light discoloration and loss of luster on the knee of a SLQ. I saw it, learned from it. Minor wear but it definitely is not a true Uncirculated coin. Perhaps I neglected to point out the issue was high point friction. Not a matter of over grading but a surface issue
@Catbert said:
Off topic a bit. I'm beginning to think that the OP's desire to play the CAC game has corrupted his thinking (as it has with many) vs gaining skills to at least know what quality looks like regardless of the sticker status. edit to add - AND to be happy with a coin without a sticker.
I cannot be happy with a coin without a sticker as my whole collection which I am proud of has all CAC stickers. I pick my coins first for 👁️ appeal and quality but I need the validation from CAC that I own a coin that is at least B quality for the grade and doesn’t have any apparent surface issues or high point friction. And I learned what I know from my few CAC rejections and valuable knowledge received on this esteemed world class forum.** **I can see you are anti CAC for whatever reason and don’t want others to enjoy the immense benefits CAC has contributed to our wonderful hobby **
**
I bolded your assertion above. You must be ignorant of the type of coins I collect to make such a statement. Perhaps in time you'll learn that there are many great coins without CAC stickers that worth considering in your collection. I own only a handful in my collection, while the rest have CAC approval. The ones that don't have stickers are great coins. That doesn't make me anti-CAC, just an informed collector because I know why they didn't pass or have a strong suspicion.
Anyway, this interchange between us diverts from the main issue - whether one should treat sold items as being "on approval" when the seller doesn't know that this is occurring. If they did, they wouldn't "sell" it to you. Your failure to understand why that's important is the reason you're receiving such pushback.
Edited to try and get the last sentence of your post bolded and failed.
And I see they all are leaning "orange" rather than yellow. From what I have learned from another chain on this board, a sign that they have not been dipped.
And I see they all are leaning "orange" rather than yellow. From what I have learned from another chain on this board, a sign that they have not been dipped.
Are these green or gold stickers?
Those are all gold stickers. In my opinion, I do not believe those have been dipped.
Comments
Your contempt for dealers in general is pretty obvious as this point.
Not a great look for someone who wants to continue to buy coins!
I get it you are very angry 😡 because you only see the dealer side of things. I won’t debate everything you said but I returned coins very quickly not on the 30th day, no charge backs after several months, no backing out of auctions I won.
This thread was regurgitated just to rile me up and provoke me into trading angry insults with other members. You knew I would engage and I did defend myself. Isn’t this trolling?
Always playing the victim, eh Walkerlover?
Once again, perhaps you ought to think about all of the people whose time you've wasted.
Another possible explanation for the lack of returns is that a lot of buyers treat sellers better than you do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bought from G.C. I go for great eye 👁️ appeal.. Can’t help it I love ❤️ gorgeous coins.
@NewEnglandRarities doesn’t sound the least bit angry. In fact, he sounds quite calm and reasonable and continues to try to help you.
Perhaps you’re mistaking your own well earned feelings of guilt with anger on his part.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I feel ganged up on. I can accept criticism but I am being made to feel like a criminal. The bashing is overboard and crossing a line of abuse. Nobody comes to my defense. I haven’t done anything as terrible as they are making it out to be. There is civility and decency necessary in forum discussions
Have you asked yourself why so few forum members have come to your defense? One explanation would be a conspiracy. Another, far more likely one is…give it some thought and see if you can guess.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With all due respect to @ManifestDestiny , don't intend to step on your toes😉
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
You don’t see the excessive vitriol projected by most of the poster’s. And I DIDNT REVIVE this thread my main detractors did to cause controversy
I just revisited this thread.
Interesting how it has progressed, with differing opinions on the topic of returns of coins that have been purchased under circumstances where the buyer has not been able to view the coin in hand before a purchase is made.
Sellers who offer a return provide a benefit to a buyer (a chance to view the coin in hand before committing 100% to a purchase, with the only cost to either side being shipping). This feature provided by a seller is something that gives buyers a comfort level and thus an increased willingness to bid on the coin (and bid high). As an occasional buyer of coins on line I appreciate a return privilege.
As a sometime seller on the BST I always offer a return privilege, no questions asked. I have only had one BST buyer return the coin I sent him.
As a buyer of coins on line (mostly EBay) I carefully look at the photos of the coins and use my knowledge base (gained since I returned to the hobby in 1998 as an adult) to find cherries to pick. Some photos are not very good and do not show the coin as it looks in hand (bad focus, bad lighting, etc.). However there are tells, which have led me to successful online cherrypicks.
Today is an example. Last week I bought an OGP 1956 Proof Set on Ebay, thinking the half dollar possibly was a 1956 Type 1 Cameo half dollar. The photos were out of focus, but I thought the half had promise. The EBay seller offered a return privilege.
Today I received the proof set. The half dollar contained therein unfortunately was not a Type 1. It is a Type 2. Fortunately it looks to be a high grade Cameo half dollar (a very nice coin, but in the Franklin proof series one of the more common examples).
Should I return the proof set to the seller using the return privilege???????????????????
My choice is no. I will not return the set. If I did so, I would not be comfortable with that choice.
I rolled the dice, hoping to score a Cameo Type 1 half dollar. I did not and I will live with the outcome of the gamble.
If the half dollar had been a Type 1 Cameo half I would pat myself on the back. I would not think that I should contact the seller, tell him/her that the proof set they sold me has a very valuable variety, and offer to pay more money.
To each his/her own on using or not using a return privilege. There are benefits and detriments to using a return privilege. Buyers who use it too much will suffer in the long run; and buyers who refuse to ever consider using it may also suffer in the long run.
You indicated that @NewEnglandRarities was “very angry”. I replied that he sounded quite calm and reasonable and was continuing to try to help you. So you switched to talking about other posters. I think that’s called “deflecting”.😉
Your main detractors didn’t cause the controversy - your behavior did. And by the way, I’m not angry.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Good deal. Think that it will sticker?
These are not auction returns, and I still bought 60% or more from my purchases. So why the extreme fuss. At GC I bought four coins and returned one for damage in 2 years!!
Big detracting line or possible scratch on the Buffalo Nickel see above
So what percentage of coins do I need to keep to please the dealers who are so upset with me? And look at my record with GC. Over 2 years, one returned coin well under their limit of one per month, and you can see the large line on the Buffalo justifying my return . Why are they so mad 😡 at me? I didn’t return 3/4 of my coin purchases. Please explain what’s going on as I don’t really see what I did so unethical to warrant this degree of criticism. I respect your opinion as you seem to be fair and level headed. And I do form my final opinion on coin purchases almost all the time so whose time am I wasting?
Thanks for showing us the MS65 1938-D nickel you returned. I can certainly understand why you felt you had to resort to bidding for one in an auction instead of buying off of a website or at a show. After all, the current PCGS population is a minuscule 25,510 pieces.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Dealers talk to each other. Don’t be surprised if you end up blocked by numerous sellers on eBay.
By the numbers, those are not good buyer feedback data. The situation startles us who sell. You admitted that you are liable to be unreliable. You’re kinda asking them to hose themselves.
I don’t really understand your point respectfully?
Okay I can live with that as I have virtually completed my set. But there are thousands of sellers so should I really be worried?
When I sell something I don’t like to imagine that a think tank will determine if I have to reverse the deal.
I am a part of the think tank that you pester and I do not want to encourage anyone that approval shopping on eBay is okay, because I am metaphorically hosing myself.
Your innocent inquiry shows that you will inconvenience a seller on whimsy.
Fair ?
Wholesale or retail ?
If wholesale, how far back of bid ?
Professionals know how to buy and sell coins to make a profit and even they don't always get it right.
I think it's a lot tougher to sell and net the cost of grading fees and CAC for common modern coins with limited collector appeal.
There are probably a few dozen dealers that deal in high eye appeal CAC approved coins. If half of them blocked you, is that a problem for you? I don’t know.
It’s a smaller community than you think. All you have in this hobby is your reputation. You’ve gotten good and accurate feedback here that excessive returns is damaging to your reputation. You don’t seem to care.
If not, I'll return it.
Hmmm !!!!!! Probably 2,500 buys from eBay, GC, and major auction houses. NOT A SINGLE RETURN Enough said.
Thank you for proving my point.
You don't see alot of obvious faults... obviously.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Just read this thread. Every time you speak, you sound self-centered, cheep, inconsiderate of others and completely unable to see how others might see your behavior and words. I.e., you have a complete lack of social intelligence. Unfortunately, if you don't change you will not be successful in life and probably have few friends (let alone dealers who want to sell you coins) so I feel bad for you. You shouldn't feel like a criminal but you should try to understand why people are reacting the way they are and then try to change.
by the time of you getting it in hand and then posting, you're not sure if you're mostly happy or not? so you ask us if you're mostly happy?
I'll give you my answer, even though you didn't ask me. You can thank me later for the gratuitous advice.
I expect that the vast majority of serious coin collectors keep very close to 100% of the coins they purchase online.
I have purchased well over 2,000 coins online. Of those, a few more than 150 have been certified coins (think "expensive"). I have returned nine coins, total, ever. And none of those coins was one whose photo I saw before I bought it (or was certified). I have never been blacklisted by a vendor (although I have blacklisted vendors).
I have never returned a coin I purchased from any auction (I've bought about 25 coins from GC, and more than that in total from eBay, Heritage, David Lawrence and a few others.
I don't think I'm any more "virtuous" than the vast majority of serious collectors. Most of us look carefully at the photos provided; we won't buy if the photo isn't high quality. We won't buy if there's something we see in the coin that bothers us. And, when we do buy, we're adults about living up to our end of the bargain (which is, obviously, that, unless there's a significant surprise not disclosed in the description/photo(s), we don't return the coin just because we didn't get a "bargain"). We're looking to do honest business with honest business people; a fair deal. You seem to be looking for a great bargain (in particular, coins that will get CAC approval after you buy), and when you only get a fair deal (the coin was fairly graded, but not under-graded or likely to sticker), you send it back. You're within your rights, but the message here is that many of us feel that that is not a reasonable way to do business. Were I an online vendor (I thank goodness I'm not), I would not want to do business with you, judging from what I've read over time on this forum.
You seem surprised and angry at the reception you're getting here. Perhaps if you read what I have written, and thinkabout how you do business, you'll get an inkling. Question: Would you want a customer like you (always looking for an edge, who returns coins that don't give the buyer an edge)?
Thank you at least you gave me a clear cut explanation instead of insults in a civil manner. I appreciate that and can better understand the concern of the forum members. I am 72 and have limited resources to travel so I am forced to buy online. I wish there was a major show in NYC. Luckily I have completed my type set minus the Franklin. I will screen my next purchase much more carefully.
I thought you were much, much younger than 72. Not kidding.
Agreed, this is the type of behavior and defensiveness normally expected from a teenager/young adult.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
How come when it is anyone else, we get accurate answers. I do not think that the coin in the OP will CAC. I am not an expert. Only do to others what you expect them to do back. Maybe I'll put this in my signature.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Off topic a bit. I'm beginning to think that the OP's desire to play the CAC game has corrupted his thinking (as it has with many) vs gaining skills to at least know what quality looks like regardless of the sticker status. edit to add - AND to be happy with a coin without a sticker.
I can appreciate the reluctance to travel and collect via the internet...
Buying CAC is the only way to go if you cannot see the coins in hand.
Anything else is pure folly without access and the time to view hundreds of coins in hand per week to hone and keep a grading edge.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I cannot be happy with a coin without a sticker as my whole collection which I am proud of has all CAC stickers. I pick my coins first for 👁️ appeal and quality but I need the validation from CAC that I own a coin that is at least B quality for the grade and doesn’t have any apparent surface issues or high point friction. And I learned what I know from my few CAC rejections and valuable knowledge received on this esteemed world class forum. I can see you are anti CAC for whatever reason and don’t want others to enjoy the immense benefits CAC has contributed to our wonderful hobby
I collected as a YN from age 7 to about age 22 (1963-1978) and then spent a couple of decades away from the hobby. After returning to the hobby as an adult in 1998 (42 years old) I collected again, mostly raw coins. In 2021 I started submitting coins to PCGS for grading and continued submitting in 2022 and in 2023. That has been an interesting and eye opening experience that on the whole has been positive.
I now have numerous PCGS graded coins. None have been to CAC and none have any stickers.
At this point in time I do not need or want the PCGS grade opinion for my graded coins to be reviewed by a second set of eyes. Perhaps that will change down the road, particularly if I leave the kiddie pool area of the hobby.
That’s fine everyone should do as they feel comfortable. Do you have the expertise to grade at a professional level to detect surface issues and coins that are overgraded? Or you don’t care and are satisfied just with the PCGS opinion. Maybe your coins are fairly inexpensive and it’s not necessary for you to have that sticker. It’s all good 😊
I bought a $300 SLQ PCGS 64, but it failed CAC. Loved the coin but sold it as I cannot have a AU 58+ masquerading as a legitimate MS coin.
I’ve been on the sidelines for this thread but your last statement has me scratching my head.
Since when does a PCGS MS64 coin become an AU58+ just because it doesn’t CAC? Your logic doesn’t make sense with your statement. Does that mean a MS62 becomes an AU55 if it doesn’t CAC?
Silverman68, jfoot13, GAB, ricman, Smittys, scrapman1077, RyGuy, Connecticoin, Meltdown, VikingDude, Peaceman, Patches and more.
It does for sure when JA points out very light discoloration and loss of luster on the knee of a SLQ. I saw it, learned from it. Minor wear but it definitely is not a true Uncirculated coin. Perhaps I neglected to point out the issue was high point friction. Not a matter of over grading but a surface issue
**
I bolded your assertion above. You must be ignorant of the type of coins I collect to make such a statement. Perhaps in time you'll learn that there are many great coins without CAC stickers that worth considering in your collection. I own only a handful in my collection, while the rest have CAC approval. The ones that don't have stickers are great coins. That doesn't make me anti-CAC, just an informed collector because I know why they didn't pass or have a strong suspicion.
Anyway, this interchange between us diverts from the main issue - whether one should treat sold items as being "on approval" when the seller doesn't know that this is occurring. If they did, they wouldn't "sell" it to you. Your failure to understand why that's important is the reason you're receiving such pushback.
Edited to try and get the last sentence of your post bolded and failed.
Here are a few of @Catbert's coins for @Walkerlover to enjoy:
Coin Photographer.
I am confused.
You stated the coins need to be CAC'd and you trust JA so much... yet you buy non CAC coins?
PCGS/NGC and then CAC were created for the purpose of catering to more sophisticated collectors such as yourself.
The days of crackouts and upgrades passed us by 20 years ago.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I wish that were true. Unfortunately. it is not.
And I see they all are leaning "orange" rather than yellow. From what I have learned from another chain on this board, a sign that they have not been dipped.
Are these green or gold stickers?
Haven't you heard of grumpy old men?
Those are all gold stickers. In my opinion, I do not believe those have been dipped.
Coin Photographer.