@IkesT said:
Just a reminder that the return window is still open on this purchase, and the OP has a history of using Forum feedback to justify canceling or returning his purchases. He only keeps coins that he thinks will upgrade or CAC. Is that fair to the seller who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith?
It’s difficult to buy from some of these sellers on EBay as they use very bright lighting to conceal contact marks and other issues and enhance the luster of their coins.
@IkesT said:
Just a reminder that the return window is still open on this purchase, and the OP has a history of using Forum feedback to justify canceling or returning his purchases. He only keeps coins that he thinks will upgrade or CAC. Is that fair to the seller who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith?
It’s difficult to buy from some of these sellers on EBay as they use very bright lighting to conceal contact marks and other issues and enhance the luster of their coins.
I have a set of raw untoned AU/UNC Franklins in an album. Most are low MS (63 or lower) with a few likely being AU. Two or three may be gems (65). From a distance they look ok. When I view them up close, in hand, with a loupe, under good lighting their many flaws pop out at me and I go "meh".
Probably because my interest in Franklins are those that look like these:
However I do have one MS Franklin (MS66FBL) that I find very appealing:
@DisneyFan said:
Have you tried submitting any coins to CAC? What is your track record?
Track record is very high. But I am extremely picky as I collect mainly type coins
That's nice. What has been the main reason for your fails?
Well when I first started with CAC I had no knowledge of surface issues that would prevent a sticker. So I missed pvc on one coin, and high point friction and hairlines on 2 others. Haven’t yet failed for an overgrade issue
@braddick said:
The OP changed this post after I posted my opinion.
His changes make my original opinion seem uneducated.
Not cool.
Sorry Braddick I forgot to add my iPhone photo when you posted. But coin in hand looks closer to the sellers than mine.
There is a big difference between the two.
The Seller's photos look vibrant and lustrous. A full GEM.
Your photo looks a bit washed out and lifeless with the slide mark a bit more prevalent.
I am glad you are happy with it though yet after the cost of the coin I am not convinced it would be worth a trip to CAC.
The 1960s Denver Franklins are scarcer in MS65 and better so it does have that going for it, for sure.
Thanks for your honest opinion. But everyone misses the point about CAC. For me it’s not about the cost it’s the prestige and assurance that my coins are solid or high for the grade. The cost is immaterial to me and I could probably recoup most of the CAC fee if I ever sell which I am not intending
The most important question from your post, why send it to CAC? Looking up this coin, in the grade there are 1,299 and the third highest grade (counting plus designations). PCGS values this date at $85.00 currently. Looking at what was paid and adding the fees CAC would charge it's nearly impossible to justify. Don't get me wrong, that's a really nice coin and grade, With that said, I buy all of my coins based on my eye appeal not that of someone else's- CAC. Those beans are simply pointless to me. Definetly not worth the premium despite what some buyers would argue. But this is my opinion.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I think it is overpriced, a common date, and does not match the stated objective of having a CAC collection. The real test will be spending even more money and hoping it gets CAC approval. If within the 14 day return window it would be wise to return it.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
Yeah - I love the spots in the crappy black toning!
Well, it doesn't look as you described it yet I still instead of returning it decided to list it myself and sold it at a loss: https://www.ebay.com/itm/285838119393
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
I don’t feel I am abusing return privileges as much as you are saying. Almost all my decisions have been made almost always by my final opinion. I have been swayed maybe once or twice perhaps by a forum members feedback, that’s true when they pointed out something important that I missed. In fact I bought a 1943 steel cent even though several forum members felt it was spotted. I can’t help being very picky but I have bought.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
In my opinion as a photographer...
Your photos are the inaccurate ones. You are using a flat indirect light source, whereas the seller's photos are using a stronger more direct light source. Strong and direct are the industry standard, like it or not. iPhone photos most certainly are not the industry standard. I believe the seller's photos are more than accurate, and calling them "very enhanced" is an egregious oversight and is flat out wrong.
As far as your return history is concerned, be more picky BEFORE you buy. I, and many others here, pass on quite literally thousands of potential coins before buying the one we want. If you are uncomfortable being able to tell what a coin will look like in hand based on pictures, then don't buy off of Ebay. Buy the coin in hand.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
In my opinion as a photographer...
Your photos are the inaccurate ones. You are using a flat indirect light source, whereas the seller's photos are using a stronger more direct light source. Strong and direct are the industry standard, like it or not. iPhone photos most certainly are not the industry standard. I believe the seller's photos are more than accurate, and calling them "very enhanced" is an egregious oversight and is flat out wrong.
As far as your return history is concerned, be more picky BEFORE you buy. I, and many others here, pass on quite literally thousands of potential coins before buying the one we want. If you are uncomfortable being able to tell what a coin will look like in hand based on pictures, then don't buy off of Ebay. Buy the coin in hand.
Your point is taken. But this coin looks in-between my coin photos and the sellers. So yes direct light source but a little too strong. The coin should be fairly be close in hand to a sellers photo to be fair to a EBAY buyer. In his photo of the Franklin the obverse looks bright and flashy with superb luster but not in hand very close
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
How is it "abusing the return privileges" when free returns are offered within 14 days without any qualifications ?
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
In my opinion as a photographer...
Your photos are the inaccurate ones. You are using a flat indirect light source, whereas the seller's photos are using a stronger more direct light source. Strong and direct are the industry standard, like it or not. iPhone photos most certainly are not the industry standard. I believe the seller's photos are more than accurate, and calling them "very enhanced" is an egregious oversight and is flat out wrong.
As far as your return history is concerned, be more picky BEFORE you buy. I, and many others here, pass on quite literally thousands of potential coins before buying the one we want. If you are uncomfortable being able to tell what a coin will look like in hand based on pictures, then don't buy off of Ebay. Buy the coin in hand.
Your point is taken. But this coin looks in-between my coin photos and the sellers. So yes direct light source but a little too strong. The coin should be fairly be close in hand to a sellers photo to be fair to a EBAY buyer. In his photo of the Franklin the obverse looks bright and flashy with superb luster but not in hand very close
From what I see, the coin does have strong luster - if under the right lights. Have you considered upgrading the lights you look at coins with?
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
In my opinion as a photographer...
Your photos are the inaccurate ones. You are using a flat indirect light source, whereas the seller's photos are using a stronger more direct light source. Strong and direct are the industry standard, like it or not. iPhone photos most certainly are not the industry standard. I believe the seller's photos are more than accurate, and calling them "very enhanced" is an egregious oversight and is flat out wrong.
As far as your return history is concerned, be more picky BEFORE you buy. I, and many others here, pass on quite literally thousands of potential coins before buying the one we want. If you are uncomfortable being able to tell what a coin will look like in hand based on pictures, then don't buy off of Ebay. Buy the coin in hand.
Your point is taken. But this coin looks in-between my coin photos and the sellers. So yes direct light source but a little too strong. The coin should be fairly be close in hand to a sellers photo to be fair to a EBAY buyer. In his photo of the Franklin the obverse looks bright and flashy with superb luster but not in hand very close
From what I see, the coin does have strong luster - if under the right lights. Have you considered upgrading the lights you look at coins with?
I use a 75 Watt Soft White Light. But this coin in the photo looks it has super bright white luster with a touch of rim toning. That’s why I was the only buyer for the coin willing to pay this price as it didn’t sell when he had it the auction at $127 starting bid. Luster is good in my opinion but nothing special in hand.
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
How is it "abusing the return privileges" when free returns are offered within 14 days without any qualifications ?
On the chance that you really don't understand, I'll try to help.
The return privilege is the seller's way of telling a buyer that, if the coin isn't what was advertised (yes, photos can miss something, so that a coin in hand isn't what a good faith buyer thought it would be), the buyer can return the coin; it puts a buyer at ease.
The return privilege is NOT meant to be a way for a buyer to buy on "approval" (like when I was a kid with stamps).
If the coin was represented fairly in the ad, the buyer should keep it.
It's a matter of ethics, not "law" or "rules." Some people have a decent ethical compass; some people don't. Some people try to be fair; some people are always looking to get an advantage (fair or unfair). Buying with the intention of returning the coin unless it turns out to be a bargain is NOT an ethical way to do business on eBay, IMO.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
I don’t feel I am abusing return privileges as much as you are saying. Almost all my decisions have been made almost always by my final opinion. I have been swayed maybe once or twice perhaps by a forum members feedback, that’s true when they pointed out something important that I missed. In fact I bought a 1943 steel cent even though several forum members felt it was spotted. I can’t help being very picky but I have bought.
FWIW I bought the coin after it didn’t receive any bids in his auction.
Paid him the full $127, so it too much to expect a great coin as per the look in his photo. Only reverse was very good
@blitzdude said:
Looks AT to me. Cacs is craps shoot. Some collect coins some collect stickers. If it were mine I'd crack her and dip off the nasty. RGDS!
I am very picky about what I like, so I don't buy many coins just from photos very often. If you are as picky as you say, then you may want to consider doing the same thing.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
It's a matter of ethics, not "law" or "rules." Some people have a decent ethical compass; some people don't. Some people >try to be fair; some people are always looking to get an advantage (fair or unfair). Buying with the intention of returning the >coin unless it turns out to be a bargain is NOT an ethical way to do business on eBay, IMO.
It's kind of amusing to see someone "laugh" at that statement. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where on the "ethical compass or not" that person is!
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
As noted above, you need to be asking questions before pulling the trigger.
If there’s a coin I might be interested in and it’s not stickered, I ask if it’s been sent in and if so, they’re thoughts on why it didn’t ( over grading, surface problems, etc.)
>
I just don’t think you’re going to have much luck trying to make a ‘CAC.’ Think of it this way, if it was worth stickering, it probably was tried. If it wasn’t tried, you might should think like the seller, it’s just not worth it.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
These are 2 beautiful coins from Rick Snow I purchased. Two for two with him. Helps to find great sellers.
Maybe that’s what I need as well.
@Manifest_Destiny said:
I have a feeling that shoeman052 is about to get a return.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
So true! And the posts show some things he didn’t notice, such as returns/partial refunds even when he was trying to show he was an honest buyer. I give this advice to everyone who has “started off on the wrong foot”. Maybe time for the OP to find another venue to ask about purchases after the fact, because their reputation here is now pretty bad
New England Rarities...Dealer In Colonial Coinage and Americana
@Slade01 said:
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
These are the coins I want not average coins dealers want to dump.
I have 0 percent returns from 7 or so coins that I have sold on EBay, because I deal in super eye appealing coins!!!!
Comments
Actually, and surprisingly, the seller accepted my offer!
I wasn't even looking for a 1961-D MS65 Franklin yet here we are. . .
peacockcoins
Let us know if it CACs!
It’s difficult to buy from some of these sellers on EBay as they use very bright lighting to conceal contact marks and other issues and enhance the luster of their coins.
That's not the issue.
That's nice. What has been the main reason for your fails?
I have a set of raw untoned AU/UNC Franklins in an album. Most are low MS (63 or lower) with a few likely being AU. Two or three may be gems (65). From a distance they look ok. When I view them up close, in hand, with a loupe, under good lighting their many flaws pop out at me and I go "meh".
Probably because my interest in Franklins are those that look like these:
However I do have one MS Franklin (MS66FBL) that I find very appealing:
Well when I first started with CAC I had no knowledge of surface issues that would prevent a sticker. So I missed pvc on one coin, and high point friction and hairlines on 2 others. Haven’t yet failed for an overgrade issue
Thanks for your honest opinion. But everyone misses the point about CAC. For me it’s not about the cost it’s the prestige and assurance that my coins are solid or high for the grade. The cost is immaterial to me and I could probably recoup most of the CAC fee if I ever sell which I am not intending
The most important question from your post, why send it to CAC? Looking up this coin, in the grade there are 1,299 and the third highest grade (counting plus designations). PCGS values this date at $85.00 currently. Looking at what was paid and adding the fees CAC would charge it's nearly impossible to justify. Don't get me wrong, that's a really nice coin and grade, With that said, I buy all of my coins based on my eye appeal not that of someone else's- CAC. Those beans are simply pointless to me. Definetly not worth the premium despite what some buyers would argue. But this is my opinion.
You guessed it, @Walkerlover returned the OP coin to the seller. It's his usual MO of buying a coin that he thinks might upgrade or CAC, mining the Forum for opinions, then returning the coin if it looks like the weight of opinion is against the upgrade/CAC.
It's not fair to the seller, who sold the coin as a PCGS MS65 in good faith, or to the Forum membership to be used/exploited in this way.
What an annoying waste of time for everyone involved!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/176348863731
I think it is overpriced, a common date, and does not match the stated objective of having a CAC collection. The real test will be spending even more money and hoping it gets CAC approval. If within the 14 day return window it would be wise to return it.
Seems like this may be a pattern now with the OP.
Coin Photographer.
OMG - Op coin very nice at 65 - Buy what you like.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Yeah - I love the spots in the crappy black toning!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I am sorry to disappoint you but the coins obverse was very photo enhanced and not even close to the look in hand. COMPARE THE SELLERS PHOTOS WITH MINE. I am not obligated to keep a coin I am not excited with at the HIGH PRICE I paid. I have bought several coins on EBay that met or exceeded the photos posted. So I have a high return rate I am picky, so sue me. At least I make up my mind quickly and don’t abuse the return privileges.
Next time I will only post if I am 100% keeping the coin and I will prove it to the forum members with a written link. So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
You are abusing the return privileges, as well as the Forum - that's the whole point. As for your promise, we shall see - you've made other similar promises that you failed to keep. Instead of playing the victim, perhaps you should think about how the sellers feel when you keep returning their coins.
Well, it doesn't look as you described it yet I still instead of returning it decided to list it myself and sold it at a loss:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285838119393
peacockcoins
I don’t feel I am abusing return privileges as much as you are saying. Almost all my decisions have been made almost always by my final opinion. I have been swayed maybe once or twice perhaps by a forum members feedback, that’s true when they pointed out something important that I missed. In fact I bought a 1943 steel cent even though several forum members felt it was spotted. I can’t help being very picky but I have bought.
In my opinion as a photographer...
Your photos are the inaccurate ones. You are using a flat indirect light source, whereas the seller's photos are using a stronger more direct light source. Strong and direct are the industry standard, like it or not. iPhone photos most certainly are not the industry standard. I believe the seller's photos are more than accurate, and calling them "very enhanced" is an egregious oversight and is flat out wrong.
As far as your return history is concerned, be more picky BEFORE you buy. I, and many others here, pass on quite literally thousands of potential coins before buying the one we want. If you are uncomfortable being able to tell what a coin will look like in hand based on pictures, then don't buy off of Ebay. Buy the coin in hand.
Coin Photographer.
It's an entire quilt.
Your point is taken. But this coin looks in-between my coin photos and the sellers. So yes direct light source but a little too strong. The coin should be fairly be close in hand to a sellers photo to be fair to a EBAY buyer. In his photo of the Franklin the obverse looks bright and flashy with superb luster but not in hand very close
How is it "abusing the return privileges" when free returns are offered within 14 days without any qualifications ?
So STOP PICKING ON ME. Like you all are so perfect and ethical
Funny how you ask for thruthfull renditions but when you get them you don't like them...........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
"I could probably recoup most of the CAC fee if I ever sell "
I doubt that for common, relatively modern coins. It would likely be correct for rare coins and pre-1933 gold coins
I bought my coins at fair prices and they are above average in eye appeal so yes it’s possible I can recover the CAC fees.
From what I see, the coin does have strong luster - if under the right lights. Have you considered upgrading the lights you look at coins with?
Coin Photographer.
I use a 75 Watt Soft White Light. But this coin in the photo looks it has super bright white luster with a touch of rim toning. That’s why I was the only buyer for the coin willing to pay this price as it didn’t sell when he had it the auction at $127 starting bid. Luster is good in my opinion but nothing special in hand.
On the chance that you really don't understand, I'll try to help.
The return privilege is the seller's way of telling a buyer that, if the coin isn't what was advertised (yes, photos can miss something, so that a coin in hand isn't what a good faith buyer thought it would be), the buyer can return the coin; it puts a buyer at ease.
The return privilege is NOT meant to be a way for a buyer to buy on "approval" (like when I was a kid with stamps).
If the coin was represented fairly in the ad, the buyer should keep it.
It's a matter of ethics, not "law" or "rules." Some people have a decent ethical compass; some people don't. Some people try to be fair; some people are always looking to get an advantage (fair or unfair). Buying with the intention of returning the coin unless it turns out to be a bargain is NOT an ethical way to do business on eBay, IMO.
Deleted, no dog in this fight.
FWIW I bought the coin after it didn’t receive any bids in his auction.
Paid him the full $127, so it too much to expect a great coin as per the look in his photo. Only reverse was very good
Sure / go for it.
Quit with the delusion you can "make" a coin CAC using 2D photos, then asking for opinions of others.
Don't you think the dealer or the parade of previous owners have tried or considered getting the coin CAC'd?
You are not gaining anything by wasting money in drips with the expense of shipping.
You are wasting your time, and the dealers time, and yes... you're unethical abusing return language.
Work on your grading skills at shows and auction lots.
You are a dreamer using 2D images.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
No - don’t c it CAC.
What a dog / C coin
Agree plus badly tarnished. No CAC
I am very picky about what I like, so I don't buy many coins just from photos very often. If you are as picky as you say, then you may want to consider doing the same thing.
Just a thought.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
You're not obligated to keep a coin, but whether you want to call it ethics or just being decent, if you have any questions about a coin, you should have the decency to be up front and ask them so as to avoid a return. Going back to 2005, I can think of three coins I've returned (it's possible there was another one or two that I forgot about):
-A toned Morgan where the saturation had been cranked up, and neither the shade or intensity in hand was anything like the photo (and the description that said the photo was how the coin looked)
-A Liberty nickel where the seller (who knows me well) and I agreed the coin may or may not be for me, but the way to find out was for me to take a look
-A flying eagle cent described as having great lustre with a photo to show it, but the angle where the surfaces looked anything but lifeless was so small I couldn't even figure out how the photo was taken when I tried to do it myself
Also of note, there was a coin where I assumed a mark wasn't going to be so bad in hand, and rather than ask the seller, I bought it. The mark bugged me and I had a return policy available, but it was my fault and I didn't need to make that the seller's problem. I recently inquired about a few coins in a dealer's inventory, and instead of just outright buying one, I asked some detailed questions about things the photos might not show, so he would know exactly what I'm after and could help determine if the coins would be a good fit.
If you're picky and know there are things you're after, no one is forcing you to buy a coin, and you can always ask. If the description is really wrong, or if a coin really just doesn't work, yes, that's what returns are for. But if you're returning coin after coin, even if it's "allowed" that doesn't make it the right thing to do, and certainly should be an indicator that maybe the problem isn't the coins, but the way you approach determining if they are the right ones for you before buying them.
It's kind of amusing to see someone "laugh" at that statement. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where on the "ethical compass or not" that person is!
VERY well said. I’m always shocked by a “member” of the group not understanding this. As numismatists, we take chances sometimes, but to be known as a person who EVERY time asks if they have made a proper choice, eventually respect for that “member” is reduced to 0. We are so lucky we have the hobby we do, and that we do is because of the quality people who keep this going year after year, and remove people who don’t bring the hobby in the right direction. This particular user has over a 40% return rate, and a higher rate asking for a discount after purchase. I understand people have issues mentality over purchases, but this is not the arena for this. Appreciate very much your response!
As noted above, you need to be asking questions before pulling the trigger.
If there’s a coin I might be interested in and it’s not stickered, I ask if it’s been sent in and if so, they’re thoughts on why it didn’t ( over grading, surface problems, etc.)
>
I just don’t think you’re going to have much luck trying to make a ‘CAC.’ Think of it this way, if it was worth stickering, it probably was tried. If it wasn’t tried, you might should think like the seller, it’s just not worth it.
All I want is his ebay user name so he can be blocked from my coins.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Sure thanks for your input. I made some errors in judgment with my selections and choices especially when I first started buying from EBay. But I have made some very satisfying purchases as well. 2 very nice coins from Eagle Eye Rare Coins come to mind. I feel most of my returns now were due to exaggerated lighting from sellers making their coins look overly lustrous and flashy when they were not very close to the look of the coin when examined in hand.
Unfortunately living in N.Y.C. I don’t have access to any major shows to see inventory of quality dealers so I have no choice but to buy online from EBay or GC where I did buy 4 coins with only 1 return (The coin had a major defect that wasn’t caught by PCGS.)
These are 2 beautiful coins from Rick Snow I purchased. Two for two with him. Helps to find great sellers.
Maybe that’s what I need as well.
So, a couple things, I do honestly think you believe this is the way purchase/returns work, as say Macys or Target. However, this is NOT the same thing here. These are individual people offering their wares to individual people. There is no billion dollar backed parent company, or quantity sales that negate moronic returns like Amazon. This hobby as a business is done by individuals 90% of the time. You will find that you have done far more damage to your own reputation than you could ever make up on mistake purchases.
You even admit at the end of your post that you have a 25% return rate at GC. See, you have been told time and time again that this is not an approval business. If I were selling to you on eBay, I would not want that kind of person doing business with me, and I wish we had more protection over this. Nobody ever offered you something incorrectly described, not what you wanted, etc. It is this kind of mindset that many of us try to protect AGAINST in coins. You can’t seem to grasp that return a coin costs the seller time and money. You think because eBay offers a return policy with “no risk to you” as why you can do this. Remember you are NOT buying from eBay, you are buying from someone like me, a dealer who works 40-80 hours a week trying to make a living. You have been told time and time again this, but you flaunt it back in our faces.
If you live in NYC (I lived in Boston for 30 years) you have absolutely no excuses. It’s the hotbed of regional and local shows in the northeast. That argument is ridiculous honestly. Anyway, enough negativity. Seriously, you need to either have confidence in what you are buying on a whim, or work with a dealer who can assist your collection growth (if you could find one that would actually work with you for more than a few weeks). Good luck
Fortunately, the one favor he did for us was to provide that information himself
:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13658389/#Comment_13658389
So true! And the posts show some things he didn’t notice, such as returns/partial refunds even when he was trying to show he was an honest buyer. I give this advice to everyone who has “started off on the wrong foot”. Maybe time for the OP to find another venue to ask about purchases after the fact, because their reputation here is now pretty bad
Hey, technical question -- what's your EBay handle? So I can block ya.
I don’t care so block me. I have had a great experience with better dealers like Eagle Eye Rick Snow. Two for Two. I need more quality dealers not you and your average stock
These are the coins I want not average coins dealers want to dump.
I have 0 percent returns from 7 or so coins that I have sold on EBay, because I deal in super eye appealing coins!!!!