they may be 90% and less than a full oz of gol, but they are immediately identifiable, then put a common date and common grade in a p/n holder and you have authenticity guaranteed
Are there folks willing to pay a small premium over melt for generic AU or beat up 60 - 63 pre 33 gold at these melt prices? Are dealers holding these coins to see if they can get a premium or buying slightly under the melt value and sending them of to a refinery?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Are there folks willing to pay a small premium over melt for generic AU or beat up 60 - 63 pre 33 gold at these melt prices? Are dealers holding these coins to see if they can get a premium or buying slightly under the melt value and sending them of to a refinery?
I place value of what the market values them. you have to. but i see them as the gold side of 90% silver, tho the market puts different premiums on gold and silver
No. However it is highly probable many sell at melt prices , with gold having reached historic highs. Rightly so. Capitalizing is a beautiful thing. And so are those old Libs and Saints. For sure, the market is alive.
Many people simply can’t afford them. They want them but are priced out. We live in very uncertain times. Many have been surpassed by technology and AI is on the horizon. Others are retired are ok but on a tight budget. $200 is an expensive non survival cost expense. They need that money (coins) for food, auto expense, lifestyle stuff.
Market appears strong on these (see below). If you can pickup nice slabbed $20 DE close to melt go for it. I have picked up a few myself. We don’t know how long this opportunity will last. The converse is could they sink further (gold price). I go for lustrous attractive pieces no spots close to melt. $2292 / $2860, CDN Bid / CPG MV. On 1927 MS 64 $20 generic Saint. (Green arrow uptick). Better buy now they may be on way up. Jimmy said he is at $2995 on them (pieces he’s cherrypicked for quality, upcoming show). “Take them or pass or as Logan Roy says….” I believe he is buying too (10 pct behind CDN Bid).
People still want certified product for safety reasons. And seriously? Wouldn't you rather have nice looking albeit average graded material than modern products?
During one of the previous run UPS in gold price of over $2000 my local dealer had a full PCGS box of Saints and /or Eagles, all graded, I asked him what he was gonna do with them, and he said “immediately wholesale for likely melt”.
He could give two craps about the sentimentality of others in running his business. It made him nervous at high SPOT prices to hold Gold two minutes more then he had to.
For example, how many of you are buying gold at this price?
I'll bet there are a lot of people thinking that everything is going up, that what they have is going up as much as gold is; but as usual when the precious metals prices rise the premiums fall. I assume that cac is not making a market in coins they approve now as they used to do, but when they did the increases made a lot of sense when pms changed.
@davewesen said:
Is the value of gold going up faster than the value of US$ is going down?
What percentage of the 90% silver coinage got melted during the Hunt brothers spike?
I wondered the same, but it’s obviously the gold is going up faster than the dollar going down. Otherwise everything else would be going up really fast as well.
That’s the way I understand it.
Glad you brought this up. During the silver run up in 1979-1980, I unloaded some generic, very worn Barber coinage, because it was worth less than melt. It bothered me to do this, but financially, it made sense.
Never been into gold. Just because it's up now doesn't mean it will stay there.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@MilesWaits said:
During one of the previous run UPS in gold price of over $2000 my local dealer had a full PCGS box of Saints and /or Eagles, all graded, I asked him what he was gonna do with them, and he said “immediately wholesale for likely melt”.
He could give two craps about the sentimentality of others in running his business. It made him nervous at high SPOT prices to hold Gold two minutes more then he had to.
For example, how many of you are buying gold at this price?
"Wholesale for melt" doesn't mean you're going to melt them. In fact, it means the exact opposite. If you wholesale for the melt value, there's no profit in melting them.
I did not think that this was going to happen until today.
We sold 20 PCGS graded 10$ Indians and 20 PCGS 10$ Liberties all common dates from 61 to 63 and we went to 4 shops and no one wanted to pay more than melt. It was not until today did I believe we were at risk of an 80's style melt.
@davewesen said:
you don't think the buyers at the hotel sold everything to the smelters and bought it at (deep) discount?
Not sure what their margin was. although it's been almost 45 years ago, I do remember a couple different companies there off and on. It seemed like every time they were there the price just kept climbing until
POOF !!! suddenly they weren't. Then it hit the news how the gov't limited the % one could have. I have two newspaper articles in my safe regarding the Hunts. I believe given the amount of coins I witnessed being sold, I don't think the buyers had time to check for rarities. A local pawn shop owner was buying at a slightly lower price. He got stuck with alot of 90% when the bottom fell out.
1)I'll pay melt / maybe a few dollars more (maybe not) for generics.
2)I'll immediately sell a gold future / micro gold futures (depending on how many oz I bought) short to balance the position.
I'll give the trade a bit of time to see if I can unwind the gold coins at a profit or until I need to raise capital.
Worst case, after a little while, I'll liquidate the gold through a melter and cover the futures. Collect interest on the short futures of about 5%/yr as of today. So a very limited risk.
Demand on 70 graded Moderns is where you find it. I recently sold 6 burnished AGEs at auction for below spot, but the other two that sold for more than spot kinda made up for the difference.
Overall, I wouldn’t expect to realize big premiums on Modern Bullion unless it’s low mintage, (or low population) relative to its cousins in the same series.
OTOH, many of the older and lower mintage keys in 70 are outta sight and not getting any cheaper.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
When the liquidation value of a pre-1933 gold coin exceeds its prior valve by 30% or more, why wouldn’t its owner decide to sell it if he needs some cash?
And why would the dealer that he sold it to decide to hold onto it at these elevated prices (reducing his working capital) since his bullion business is based on turnover instead of “ buy and hold”?
I suspect that this type of liquidation dynamic is already being reflected in the evaporation of premiums.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Collector demand for MS62 and lower $20's is probably non-existent, since nice MS63-64 pieces can be found for a few bucks more than MS60-62.
Institutional and central bank demand for gold bars or ingots appears to be robust.
To me this looks like a recipe for mass melting, especially if the price of gold keeps rising. My understanding is that a considerable number of gold commems and First Spouse coins have been sent to the melting pot over the past several years due to both lack of collector demand, and rising demand for the metal.
Comments
they may be 90% and less than a full oz of gol, but they are immediately identifiable, then put a common date and common grade in a p/n holder and you have authenticity guaranteed
Are there folks willing to pay a small premium over melt for generic AU or beat up 60 - 63 pre 33 gold at these melt prices? Are dealers holding these coins to see if they can get a premium or buying slightly under the melt value and sending them of to a refinery?
.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I place value of what the market values them. you have to. but i see them as the gold side of 90% silver, tho the market puts different premiums on gold and silver
No. However it is highly probable many sell at melt prices , with gold having reached historic highs. Rightly so. Capitalizing is a beautiful thing. And so are those old Libs and Saints. For sure, the market is alive.
In today's world ... I would say absolutely yes.
Many people simply can’t afford them. They want them but are priced out. We live in very uncertain times. Many have been surpassed by technology and AI is on the horizon. Others are retired are ok but on a tight budget. $200 is an expensive non survival cost expense. They need that money (coins) for food, auto expense, lifestyle stuff.
Market appears strong on these (see below). If you can pickup nice slabbed $20 DE close to melt go for it. I have picked up a few myself. We don’t know how long this opportunity will last. The converse is could they sink further (gold price). I go for lustrous attractive pieces no spots close to melt. $2292 / $2860, CDN Bid / CPG MV. On 1927 MS 64 $20 generic Saint. (Green arrow uptick). Better buy now they may be on way up. Jimmy said he is at $2995 on them (pieces he’s cherrypicked for quality, upcoming show). “Take them or pass or as Logan Roy says….” I believe he is buying too (10 pct behind CDN Bid).
It may not be classic US gold collectors that are supporting this market, but somebody sure is.....2360 as I write.....
People still want certified product for safety reasons. And seriously? Wouldn't you rather have nice looking albeit average graded material than modern products?
During one of the previous run UPS in gold price of over $2000 my local dealer had a full PCGS box of Saints and /or Eagles, all graded, I asked him what he was gonna do with them, and he said “immediately wholesale for likely melt”.
He could give two craps about the sentimentality of others in running his business. It made him nervous at high SPOT prices to hold Gold two minutes more then he had to.
For example, how many of you are buying gold at this price?
Risk mgt can vary. Volatile big ticket really low margin material can be stressful.
I'll bet there are a lot of people thinking that everything is going up, that what they have is going up as much as gold is; but as usual when the precious metals prices rise the premiums fall. I assume that cac is not making a market in coins they approve now as they used to do, but when they did the increases made a lot of sense when pms changed.
Glad you brought this up. During the silver run up in 1979-1980, I unloaded some generic, very worn Barber coinage, because it was worth less than melt. It bothered me to do this, but financially, it made sense.
Never been into gold. Just because it's up now doesn't mean it will stay there.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
"Wholesale for melt" doesn't mean you're going to melt them. In fact, it means the exact opposite. If you wholesale for the melt value, there's no profit in melting them.
I hope not, been buying since the premiums are so low. Got some nice MS examples.
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I did not think that this was going to happen until today.
We sold 20 PCGS graded 10$ Indians and 20 PCGS 10$ Liberties all common dates from 61 to 63 and we went to 4 shops and no one wanted to pay more than melt. It was not until today did I believe we were at risk of an 80's style melt.
It was an eye opening.
J
Fwiw we were in Long Island
Not sure what their margin was. although it's been almost 45 years ago, I do remember a couple different companies there off and on. It seemed like every time they were there the price just kept climbing until
POOF !!! suddenly they weren't. Then it hit the news how the gov't limited the % one could have. I have two newspaper articles in my safe regarding the Hunts. I believe given the amount of coins I witnessed being sold, I don't think the buyers had time to check for rarities. A local pawn shop owner was buying at a slightly lower price. He got stuck with alot of 90% when the bottom fell out.
even I was talking like only DE are to be considered. as far as price, we can go down in size for that
Not really in the biz so here is my thoughts.
1)I'll pay melt / maybe a few dollars more (maybe not) for generics.
2)I'll immediately sell a gold future / micro gold futures (depending on how many oz I bought) short to balance the position.
I'll give the trade a bit of time to see if I can unwind the gold coins at a profit or until I need to raise capital.
Worst case, after a little while, I'll liquidate the gold through a melter and cover the futures. Collect interest on the short futures of about 5%/yr as of today. So a very limited risk.
you don't short futures. you write them. when you write them, you place yourself in the position of "deliverer" (term used loosely)
You are correct. There is only a buy or sell option on my commodity platform. Trading equities for 45 years does present a bit of confusion.
WTS, I have been rolling gold futures for about 10 yrs so delivery is not my preferred course of action however, If need be, I'll deliver.
In the past few months all I've been delivering is money for margin to the Comm broker.
I'm curious what effect the run-up in PM prices is having on 70 moderns? So if the coin was on the Greysheet at $3K has it now gone down in price?
Demand on 70 graded Moderns is where you find it. I recently sold 6 burnished AGEs at auction for below spot, but the other two that sold for more than spot kinda made up for the difference.
Overall, I wouldn’t expect to realize big premiums on Modern Bullion unless it’s low mintage, (or low population) relative to its cousins in the same series.
OTOH, many of the older and lower mintage keys in 70 are outta sight and not getting any cheaper.
I knew it would happen.
Forever value:
When the liquidation value of a pre-1933 gold coin exceeds its prior valve by 30% or more, why wouldn’t its owner decide to sell it if he needs some cash?
And why would the dealer that he sold it to decide to hold onto it at these elevated prices (reducing his working capital) since his bullion business is based on turnover instead of “ buy and hold”?
I suspect that this type of liquidation dynamic is already being reflected in the evaporation of premiums.
I knew it would happen.
I would guess, based on today's market -
Collector demand for MS62 and lower $20's is probably non-existent, since nice MS63-64 pieces can be found for a few bucks more than MS60-62.
Institutional and central bank demand for gold bars or ingots appears to be robust.
To me this looks like a recipe for mass melting, especially if the price of gold keeps rising. My understanding is that a considerable number of gold commems and First Spouse coins have been sent to the melting pot over the past several years due to both lack of collector demand, and rising demand for the metal.
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