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PVC Experts - What should I do with these Peace Dollars

ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 15, 2024 2:56PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Last year I submitted 2 Peace dollars (that I have owned for at least 10 years) for restoration (Trueviews below). PCGS did NOT restore them. I just sent my entire Peace collection to CAC for stickering and was told that the two Peace that I sent to PCGS for restoration have PVC (and of course didn't sticker).
So what should I do, if anything?
a) I realize PCGS can choose when to restore a coin, but why wouldn't they restore a coin with PVC? I recently had them decline to slab a raw Morgan due to PVC and they told me to resubmit it for restoration! Should I be upset that they wouldn't restore the PVC from these two Peace dollars?
b) Do I have any grounds to insist that PCGS take another look and restore them?
c) Does a dip in eZest (or something similar) usually remove PVC that I can do myself (and take a chance on grading again raw)?
d) I guess the final alternative would be to send to NGC conservation, then have them crossed back, but this is the most expensive option and risks grade.
e) Does anyone think a downgrade is a considerable risk or are these solid 63's that I shouldn't have to worry?





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Comments

  • Options
    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    I think you should try to contact PCGS but you already know the answer: "I realize PCGS can choose when to restore a coin," So, either they chose not to for some reason often connected to what the surface looks like under the haze OR someone missed the request to conserve the coins. Note that the bottom coin has attractive even PVC haze while the top one is unattractive.

  • Options
    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It could be that PCGS messed up the first time and did not realize you sent the coins in for restoration, but if that was all they were sent in for then they shouldn't have missed it.

    My advice...sell these and buy coins you like.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    It could be that PCGS messed up the first time and did not realize you sent the coins in for restoration, but if that was all they were sent in for then they shouldn't have missed it.

    They were submitted with the registration form and tracking shows it as a restoration order. There's no screw up what the intent was.

    My advice...sell these and buy coins you like.

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

  • Options
    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:
    Last year I submitted 2 Peace dollars (that I have owned for at least 10 years) for restoration (Trueviews below). PCGS did NOT restore them. I just sent my entire Peace collection to CAC for stickering and was told that the two Peace that I sent to PCGS for restoration have PVC (and of course didn't sticker).
    So what should I do, if anything?

    >

    c) Does a dip in eZest (or something similar) usually remove PVC that I can do myself (and take a chance on grading again raw)?

    .
    I am not an expert on PVC or anything coin related really. But for what it is worth here are two PVC related threads and the one has a peace dollar that looks similar. Acetone and not eZest. Both of these were put away into a box for years (decades) and when I went through the box found some uglies. They cleaned up okay but does not mean all others will. But nothing here was of value and didn't require cracking out a more costly coin.

    With that I can not say what to do but just offering up some information on the PVC.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077719/please-allow-me-to-introduce-myself-i-am-pvc-update-completed

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1084743/acetone-light-green

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • Options
    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭✭

    f) sell/auction them and purchase other coins
    This might be the cheaper way to go
    JMO

  • Options
    1madman1madman Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Option B

    I just resent in a restoration order again to have pcgs fix the first restoration. It’s pretty simple. Call customer service to initiate the process, email them back pictures of the problem areas, they’ll email you the return label, point out the pvc on the coins so PCGS knows where to restore.

  • Options
    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2024 6:33PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know that.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2024 4:09AM

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    If your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

  • Options
    1madman1madman Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know that.

    After reading this, I change my opinion to Option D.

  • Options
    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would crack them out, soak them in acetone for a couple days, then re-submit them raw, assuming the PVC haze is gone.

    If the haze is still there, send them to PCGS raw for restoration/grading with instructions to "remove PVC haze".

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2024 4:11AM

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    You can try. That might be frustrating but, if it works, it's more profitable than sinking more money into them.

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

  • Options
    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I understand PVC is not so easy to fix.

    A recent post from another forum posting:

    "...naturally deteriorated in an old ANACS holder? I spoke to PCGS, (they told me not to touch it), tried to put it in old holder auctions with Stacks and Great Collections (couldn’t get a reserve) and brought it to numerous shows to wholesale it based on the old holder concept. No help. He bought it as a 65 but it’s now barely a 63 and after you get it and dip it it will be a cleaned unc."

  • Options
    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 893 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For one thing and I’m surprised it already hasn’t been mentioned is that PCGS slabbed them at all.
    I’m not knocking anyone’s coins.
    They are obviously covered in PVC from what I can see.
    @ProofCollection did you try to soak them in acetone?
    Doesn’t sound like it but it’s not difficult to do.
    I know what you mean when you say you don’t want to take a loss.
    I just don’t think you have to many options.
    If you crack them out and are not successful with removing the PVC you may run the risk of not getting them slabbed again.
    However things turn out I wish you the best. I’m always on the collectors side!

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2024 7:33AM

    @ProofCollection said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

    They may have done it and you're looking at the damage to the surface. There's nothing conservation can do about surface etching.

    If they actually didn't do the service you paid for, I'm sure they will do it. But if they did it and that's the result, there's not much you can do about it.

    Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?

  • Options
    jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I vote crack and use acetone. The surfaces are lightly covered in acetone and will recover fully. Send them back for grading and count your lucky stars.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Options
    JerseyBJerseyB Posts: 73 ✭✭✭

    I'm pretty confused. I can maybe see some greenish film on the 28 but I don't see it on the 27-s. I have a few peace dollars that have a whitish haze/film on them when you look at an angle. Are my coins covered in PVC too?

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

    They may have done it and you're looking at the damage to the surface. There's nothing conservation can do about surface etching.

    If they actually didn't do the service you paid for, I'm sure they will do it. But if they did it and that's the result, there's not much you can do about it.

    Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?

    Sorry I wasn't clear. PCGS did NOT rEstore the coins. I'm leaning toward trying the acetone myself but again, if I paid the pros to do it I'd rather get what I paid for and eliminate risk. PCGS CS just says they evaluated the coin and decided not to restore it. You don't get any more info than that.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

    They may have done it and you're looking at the damage to the surface. There's nothing conservation can do about surface etching.

    If they actually didn't do the service you paid for, I'm sure they will do it. But if they did it and that's the result, there's not much you can do about it.

    Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?

    I think the sticker just indicates PVC, not whether or not it would sticker otherwise.

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How can you tell that the white haze is PVC rather than dip residue from a dip that was improperly rinsed?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

    They may have done it and you're looking at the damage to the surface. There's nothing conservation can do about surface etching.

    If they actually didn't do the service you paid for, I'm sure they will do it. But if they did it and that's the result, there's not much you can do about it.

    Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?

    Sorry I wasn't clear. PCGS did NOT rEstore the coins. I'm leaning toward trying the acetone myself but again, if I paid the pros to do it I'd rather get what I paid for and eliminate risk. PCGS CS just says they evaluated the coin and decided not to restore it. You don't get any more info than that.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    Why sell these at a huge discount because they are problem coins if they can be fixed?

    That's the critical issue. Sometimes they can't be fixed. They could come back as a Details coin after the PVC is removed.

    From your pictures, not the TVs, both of your coins have a significant PVC haze.

    Thank you for sharing those pictures to show what PVC looks like,

    It's interesting that you mention that. On a previous CAC submission, JA identified a coin that had note that said PVC - Call me. I called and spoke to JA and he told me the coin had PVC but could not be fixed. For the life of me I can't see it on that coin. The absence of the "call me" note or additional notes doesn't mean that it can't be fixed, but I would err on the side that these coins can be treated as I believe JA might have said something if it was more severe.

    Now to those suggesting I sell these coins: Sure when my car breaks I can sell it instead of fixing it, but that's usually not the most economical route. If these coins can be fixed and possibly even improved for about $50, that is the route I'm going to go rather than taking a ~40% haircut selling these. And if PCGS neglected to perform a service they could have or should have that I have already paid for, I want to know

    Would your car blew its engine, would you send it in for a $50 oil change?

    No, an oil change would not fix it. But in that example, if the car was a fairly new $30-40k car, replacing the engine and then selling the car would probably net more cash than selling it with a broken engine or buying a replacement.

    You're missing the analogy. So let's skip it. The coins may not be fixable, so you aren't guaranteed to fix anything for $50. The people that are advising that you just sell them as is are doing so because you might still spend $100 and then take a 40% haircut.

    Or should I force PCGS to do what I already paid them to do or pay me out under the PCGS Guarantee?

    How do you plan to "force" PCGS to do anything?

    By force I mean assert my consumer rights. If they should have performed a service I paid for, they are obligated to make it right. The thing I'm not getting from anyone on here is if PCGS should have done the restoration or was it correct for them to refuse? Seems like if they would fix PVC on one coin, they can do it on another.

    They may have done it and you're looking at the damage to the surface. There's nothing conservation can do about surface etching.

    If they actually didn't do the service you paid for, I'm sure they will do it. But if they did it and that's the result, there's not much you can do about it.

    Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?

    I think the sticker just indicates PVC, not whether or not it would sticker otherwise.

    If they chose not to do it, I would not insist they do. They would only refuse to do it if it wouldn't help. That leads me to believe the issue is not PVC residue but PVC damage. PCGS would not knowingly slab a coin with active PVC because that guarantees it would worsen over time and force them to pay the guarantee.

    Now, they could have simply missed PVC that CAC thinks they see. But I would try to get clarification from CAC. if it is PVC damage, there is nothing to do but live with it.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Atcarroll said:
    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

    Even if acetone would do nothing? You're paying a grading fee to regrade the exact same coin.

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    How can you tell that the white haze is PVC rather than dip residue from a dip that was improperly rinsed?

    If JA (CAC) says the coin has PVC I trust him. I guess it's possible to have haze -and- PVC though.

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JerseyB said:
    I'm pretty confused. I can maybe see some greenish film on the 28 but I don't see it on the 27-s. I have a few peace dollars that have a whitish haze/film on them when you look at an angle. Are my coins covered in PVC too?

    That looks like putty. Putty is applied to hide hairlines and small contact marks to increase the grade. It's not readily visible when it's fresh but it eventually turns into a white hazy film when you view it at an angle.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question: Did CAC say there was active PVC or just refuse to sticker because of PVC damage?
    Answer: I think the sticker just indicates PVC, not whether or not it would sticker otherwise.

    If this PCGS coin were submitted to CACG, it would be returned "AS IS" if active PVC and put in a new holder as Details - Questionable Surfaces if PVC damage. Neither case would be good.

  • Options
    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:
    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

    Even if acetone would do nothing? You're paying a grading fee to regrade the exact same coin.

    If acetone did nothing, it'd be my loss and a lesson learned. If acetone took care of the pvc and there wasn't any permanent damage it'd be my win. I'd try it if it were me.

  • Options
    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:
    I understand PVC is not so easy to fix.

    A recent post from another forum posting:

    "...naturally deteriorated in an old ANACS holder? I spoke to PCGS, (they told me not to touch it), tried to put it in old holder auctions with Stacks and Great Collections (couldn’t get a reserve) and brought it to numerous shows to wholesale it based on the old holder concept. No help. He bought it as a 65 but it’s now barely a 63 and after you get it and dip it it will be a cleaned unc."

    Notice the key wording??? “They told ME not to touch it? That tells me he was going to dip it, not send it for conservation as requested.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2024 3:42PM

    @AlanSki said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    I understand PVC is not so easy to fix.

    A recent post from another forum posting:

    "...naturally deteriorated in an old ANACS holder? I spoke to PCGS, (they told me not to touch it), tried to put it in old holder auctions with Stacks and Great Collections (couldn’t get a reserve) and brought it to numerous shows to wholesale it based on the old holder concept. No help. He bought it as a 65 but it’s now barely a 63 and after you get it and dip it it will be a cleaned unc."

    Notice the key wording??? “They told ME not to touch it? That tells me he was going to dip it, not send it for conservation as requested.

    It could also mean PCGS wouldn't conserve it and also told him not to dip it.

    Since you decided to leave your own thread, you're now going to crap all over this thread? Give it up already. Mr. Hunt is well respected AND a friend of your father. Maybe $200 is a lot to you. I GUARANTEE Mr. Hunt would not risk his reputation over a couple hundred in commission.

    You are going to end up on the wrong side of this.

  • Options
    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @AlanSki said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    I understand PVC is not so easy to fix.

    A recent post from another forum posting:

    "...naturally deteriorated in an old ANACS holder? I spoke to PCGS, (they told me not to touch it), tried to put it in old holder auctions with Stacks and Great Collections (couldn’t get a reserve) and brought it to numerous shows to wholesale it based on the old holder concept. No help. He bought it as a 65 but it’s now barely a 63 and after you get it and dip it it will be a cleaned unc."

    Notice the key wording??? “They told ME not to touch it? That tells me he was going to dip it, not send it for conservation as requested.

    It could also mean PCGS wouldn't conserve it and also told him not to dip it.

    Since you decided to leave your own thread, you're now going to crap all over this thread? Give it up already. Mr. Hunt is well respected AND a friend of your father. Maybe $200 is a lot to you. I GUARANTEE Mr. Hunt would not risk his reputation over a couple hundred in commission.

    You are going to end up on the wrong side of this.

    Maybe people shouldn’t quote things from that thread and bring them into this thread when it had nothing to do with the OP’s Peace Dollars. Maybe you should keep your nose out of it too??

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AlanSki said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @AlanSki said:

    @DisneyFan said:
    I understand PVC is not so easy to fix.

    A recent post from another forum posting:

    "...naturally deteriorated in an old ANACS holder? I spoke to PCGS, (they told me not to touch it), tried to put it in old holder auctions with Stacks and Great Collections (couldn’t get a reserve) and brought it to numerous shows to wholesale it based on the old holder concept. No help. He bought it as a 65 but it’s now barely a 63 and after you get it and dip it it will be a cleaned unc."

    Notice the key wording??? “They told ME not to touch it? That tells me he was going to dip it, not send it for conservation as requested.

    It could also mean PCGS wouldn't conserve it and also told him not to dip it.

    Since you decided to leave your own thread, you're now going to crap all over this thread? Give it up already. Mr. Hunt is well respected AND a friend of your father. Maybe $200 is a lot to you. I GUARANTEE Mr. Hunt would not risk his reputation over a couple hundred in commission.

    You are going to end up on the wrong side of this.

    Maybe people shouldn’t quote things from that thread and bring them into this thread when it had nothing to do with the OP’s Peace Dollars. Maybe you should keep your nose out of it too??

    You brought all of our noses into it. We didn't invite ourselves in.

    Do whatever you want. At this point, however, you risk doing more damage to your reputation than anyone else's. Not to mention the risk to damaging your father's friendship of 40 years. And that seems unfortunate.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Atcarroll said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:
    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

    Even if acetone would do nothing? You're paying a grading fee to regrade the exact same coin.

    If acetone did nothing, it'd be my loss and a lesson learned. If acetone took care of the pvc and there wasn't any permanent damage it'd be my win. I'd try it if it were me.

    I would only try it after ascertaining whether it is likely to accomplish anything. You also need to weigh that against sending it to PCGS.

    You crack that out, you also lose the grade and the grade guarantee. So your little acetone dip could cost you $40 in slabbing fees that turns a 63 into an UNC DETAILS.

    Getting evaluation from PCGS might be less costly than your little home dip because it preserves the grade and grade guarantee.

    Is your lesson learned with several hundred dollars?

  • Options
    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:
    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

    Even if acetone would do nothing? You're paying a grading fee to regrade the exact same coin.

    If acetone did nothing, it'd be my loss and a lesson learned. If acetone took care of the pvc and there wasn't any permanent damage it'd be my win. I'd try it if it were me.

    I would only try it after ascertaining whether it is likely to accomplish anything. You also need to weigh that against sending it to PCGS.

    You crack that out, you also lose the grade and the grade guarantee. So your little acetone dip could cost you $40 in slabbing fees that turns a 63 into an UNC DETAILS.

    Getting evaluation from PCGS might be less costly than your little home dip because it preserves the grade and grade guarantee.

    Is your lesson learned with several hundred dollars?

    My "little" acetone dip? This conversation is over, have a nice day.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Atcarroll said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Atcarroll said:
    If they were mine, I'd crack them out and use acetone, then resubmit.

    Even if acetone would do nothing? You're paying a grading fee to regrade the exact same coin.

    If acetone did nothing, it'd be my loss and a lesson learned. If acetone took care of the pvc and there wasn't any permanent damage it'd be my win. I'd try it if it were me.

    I would only try it after ascertaining whether it is likely to accomplish anything. You also need to weigh that against sending it to PCGS.

    You crack that out, you also lose the grade and the grade guarantee. So your little acetone dip could cost you $40 in slabbing fees that turns a 63 into an UNC DETAILS.

    Getting evaluation from PCGS might be less costly than your little home dip because it preserves the grade and grade guarantee.

    Is your lesson learned with several hundred dollars?

    My "little" acetone dip? This conversation is over, have a nice day.

    It is a "little dip" as in the lowest level of conservation possible. I can't believe anyone would get mad about that phrase.

    And who the eff are you to insist that I have a nice day? I'll have whatever effing kind of day I want!! 😇

    NOW, this conversation is over. 😉

  • Options
    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And who the eff are you to insist that I have a nice day? I'll have whatever effing kind of day I want!! 😇

    No where did he "insist" that you have a nice day. It was more in the form of a suggestion. I think you owe him an apology. ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Options
    OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AlanSki said:
    I’m not a PVC expert, but is it possible the PVC has actually eaten away the surface of the coin and a restoration wouldn’t have the desired effect you are looking for?

    Once the PVC is cleaned away, the surface may be cleaned but pitted. Why not just call PCGS and talk with them about it?

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Onastone said:

    @AlanSki said:
    I’m not a PVC expert, but is it possible the PVC has actually eaten away the surface of the coin and a restoration wouldn’t have the desired effect you are looking for?

    Once the PVC is cleaned away, the surface may be cleaned but pitted. Why not just call PCGS and talk with them about it?

    As reported earlier, PCGS CS just states that the coin was evaluated and they decided not to restore the coin. Let's stop pretending that you can get any specific details about a submitted coin.

  • Options
    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    As reported earlier, PCGS CS just states that the coin was evaluated and they decided not to restore the coin. Let's stop pretending that you can get any specific details about a submitted coin.

    That tells me that the PVC is too far gone - sorry.

  • Options
    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    As reported earlier, PCGS CS just states that the coin was evaluated and they decided not to restore the coin. Let's stop pretending that you can get any specific details about a submitted coin.

    That tells me that the PVC is too far gone - sorry.

    Agree. If it just needed a little acetone dip, they would have done it.

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question: On these old proof Washington quarters, is this covered in PVC or something else and can it be removed?

  • Options
    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't believe that is PVC. That is what I always considered some haze possibly due to the degradation of the glycine type holders the coins were issued in, if I recall correctly. Coins with this feature often grade quite high, but their eye appeal can be limited.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Options
    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,244 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Send to NCS. They're miles better than PCGS Conservation in this professionals humble opinion.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • Options
    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:
    Send to NCS. They're miles better than PCGS Conservation in this professionals humble opinion.

    Especially if Dave Camire does the conservation. However, your quarter looks terminal. I'd trade out of it.

  • Options
    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @DelawareDoons said:
    Send to NCS. They're miles better than PCGS Conservation in this professionals humble opinion.

    Especially if Dave Camire does the conservation. However, your quarter looks terminal. I'd trade out of it.

    Pretty much all Proof Washington Quarters from the date range seem to look like that. Are you sure that's PVC? I think TomB is right but I'm open to more info.

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