What is the next logical expansion to your core collection?
Boosibri
Posts: 12,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
To explain, I started collecting Spanish Colonial crowns and quickly expanded that to all iconic crowns of Latin America from the start of the milled period (1732) to the early part of the 20th century. I collected business strikes only up until recently when I began to more deliberately target proof examples which were of the same design but not minted in the region.
When an amazing coin comes up which is outside of the core focus, I find myself testing if there is a logical expansion to the set which would then make the coin feel like a natural inclusion. And if I took that step, what other steps would be required to continue the expanded course.
There are a few logical areas of expansion if I was to choose to broaden out further.
1. Add mainland Spanish 8 reales to the set.
2. Add West Indies countermarks
3. Earlier dates including hammered pieces
4. Move from Latin Americas to Americas with the inclusion of the US, Canada and Hawaii. Perhaps throw in Greenland because of the Piastre which I would certainly buy if every available.
5. Expand denominations from Crowns to minors again.
As I think through this regarding my collection, I'm sure others do as well. Care to share your experiences and logical expansion areas?
Comments
"What is the next logical expansion to your core collection?" Well I collect Korean Komsco Bullion series so the next step is to stop buying and seek therapy.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
A core collection of horses and a major side collection of 17th century German states.
I have been thinking of expanding into the Stolberg stag; a prolific animal and a German theme.
DPOTD
I actually keep tracking of sets I've worked on and given up on.
Numismatic Sets: Number of Coins Purchased before abandoning or Number owned for active sets
7070 Type Set 30
Proof Quarter Fatties 3
Draped Bust Half Cents 2
Half Cent Type 2
Colonial Type 5
PL World Coins 3
Ireland Shillings 19 - Completed & Sold
Ireland Type Set 12
George V UK Colonial Shillings 3
Shillings Type by Monarch 20 - Completed (Active)
George V UK Colonial 23mm 3
Canada & Provinces Sterling 23mm Type Set 4
Arbitrary Shilling Sized Type Set 0
British Honduras 0
British China & Hong Kong 0
Halfpennies of the Georges 1
Ireland Halfpenny Date Set 5
George V Shillings 26 - Completed (Active)
2 Reales of the Americas Independent republics 2
Mexico City 2 Reales 7 (Active)
White Anacs Type Quarters 3
Mexico 1/4r Coppers 2
20 Centuries of Gold 3
1917 Date Set 1
OGH Type Quarters 2
Florin Type 3
Victoria Veil Head Shillings 2
20th century US type 4
OH Type Quarters 1
I am on the constant lookout for logical expansion opportunities and find myself buying random 1 ofs then wanting to build a set around them. Just owning occasional pieces is difficult for me and my collector side always wants them to be a larger part of something. One of the reasons so many US sets focus on old holders is because of looking for something to give the coins some uniqueness without competing with the $$ behind serious US coins.
For me the criteria for a set to be successful seems to be,
I don't know that helps any or if it's close to your view of collecting but it's the lessons I've learned and how I've tried to shift going forward to prevent unnecessary spending delving into sets I just won't enjoy.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
My comments on your ideas above:
I think the answer for you depends on if you only like high-grade, beautiful coins or you like low-grade but finest known historic coins.
My personal answer is a mix of both. I don't collect money per-se, so I don't feel the need to add historic but damaged coins (counterstamped or chopmarked coins) to my collection. I collect beautiful examples of the machine-made numismatic art first and foremost with a few rare, historic (and potentially ugly) pieces (i.e. Mexico 2M C&J) added for spice.
Great perspectives @pruebas
Latin American Collection
Upgrade my Guatemala pillar type set.
Complete my Mexico pillar type set. Not hard but never allocated the budget.
Mexico pillar 4R generally.
Bolivia and Peru pillar 8R and pillar 8R generally.
Jamaica countermarks on pillar coinage, mostly from Peru.
Maybe modern NCLT with a pillar related design, like the 1732 Mexico dated medals or the Chile gold coin.
I doubt most of this will happen. I don't have the budget to complete the set I'm trying to finish in the quality I want, assuming I can ever find the coins.
I'm so far from completing my currently open sets that I don't feel the need to expand them. For one set I am considering expanding it to include proof issues (I am currently only doing business strikes). For another type set, I have added a couple interesting patterns. I think if you want to be comprehensive in a set, you can consider adding in a couple varieties.
If you are deep in a series, it can also be helpful to own a couple examples of designs that preceded and followed it. It can help show context if you were to hypothetically exhibit or present.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Based on size US early dimes. Started this set this month since things will grind almost to a halt with the Peru 1 reales I collect. Maybe be able to add a few more per year as not many show up. And I am happy to add 5-6 NGC/PCGS 1 reales to my Mexico colletion.
So for me it will be:
US dimes 1796-1837 (just started these and hopefully I am busy the rest of my life if not will continue the series 1838 onward) NGC & PCGS AG-03 to F-12.
Mexico 1 reales 1732-1771 (I am doing pretty well with my main set) Numerical grades only if possible with exceptions of rare varieties.
Peru 1 reales 1751-1772 (will get hard soon enough to find coins I need) Any grades and will not upgrade over time. I am happy with the ones I own even if mos tare low grades.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Boosibri:
Why not try your hand in Latin America Cobs (#3 in you choices) or Great Britain crowns? Russian Roubles from the beginning of the Russian empire 1721 onward are great coins.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I noted the cobs in my OP but I really don’t have any interest in them to be honest.
There is no natural extension of my current set to GB or Russia as my intent with any expansion is for it to be a logic extension which has a theme, just broader than the previous one.
Latin American Collection
As you know early US dollars are not cheap especially in high grades. The 1804 is impossible for most collectors minus the 1%. But if you can afford most of them that is what I would do. Easy to buy (there are always auctions with US coins) and easy to sell. Maybe get into varieties as well there is tons to learn in early dollars and many easy books to find.
You will be busy the rest of your life with US dollars. What is great Heritage has weekly US coin auctions so you feel you are just waiting and waiting to see new coins. And DLRC has great auctions as well as many other large auction houses.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I mean it is really hard not to like these:
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
I collect coins.
All of them.
More specifically, one from each country or other coin-issuing entity that has ever existed and issued coinage.
Minor areas of interest or sub-focus:
So it's kind of hard for me to do the "logical expansion to your core collection" when the core collection is already so broad and expansive.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
I think that if you’re not sure where to expand next, you should think harder about where you want to be in 10-20 years. My best guess is that you’ll be collecting the whole world at some point. And if you agree, I’d say you might as well start now. Just be super selective at this point. It’s a big world.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree. A box of 20/40/60/80/100 world crown-sized gold and silver in amazing condition would be a fun forever set.
It would allow you to take advantage of fantastic single-owner specialty collections as they come to market over the next 40 years and stay away from over-priced areas if you want to.
I think I’ll call it millennia part deux. Hopefully NGC is as generous with my grades when it’s time to sell it.
Latin American Collection
Problem is that Millennia had a lot of non-amazing coins as well. I think a better analogy would be Cape Coral where almost everything was amazing. But he didn't cover as much territory.
I am thinking more like what Mr. Salzberg collects. What is the name he used? Impossible coins or something like that?
I also collect milled Spanish colonial crowns/minors. Accordingly I was impelled to pick up a couple of English VIGO coins for the Spanish colonial silver content and fantastic War of Spanish Succession/Isaac Newton storyline. There are a few varieties that are unappreciated/unrecognized that make the short series interesting.
As for Canada meh and I am Canadian. The 50 cents sure the dollars no they start at 1935 and the few key dollars are cheap enough (1948 & 1966 small beads) and easy to find. The early half dollars 1870-1921 are great coins. The 1921 is the king of Canadian coins about 75 exist (most were melted same as the 1921 5 cent pieces with 400 known) and even a G-04 would cost 45 000$ or more. The other keys are 1870 no LCW and 1890H. Canada is not a big coin market their are ups and downs as collectors enter and leave. But the 1921 half has stood the test of time but I think it may be at its stabilized value now.
Images taken off the net (these coins are not mine):
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Can you expand on this storyline? War-Newton...I'm not familiar
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I so agree with this. Why expand and build a new set when you have to think so hard about it? If it is not instinctive or an inspired choice, you are very likely to get 20% in and wonder why the heck am I doing this…
Other than my core collection I am not very logical. Im more of an addict in buying what I want.
I know that to be true because I get as much enjoyment holding a $50 coin as I do a $100,000.
Note I used the word enjoyment ....as in looking at and appreciating its beauty / history.
I have held coins over 2 decades and other coinsI have dumped within months.
I have tended to collect crown size coins much more so than minors.
Not withstanding my core collection I have probably have a box or two of crowns from France, South Africa, Annam,
Germany, Portugal, some nice siege crowns , some nice Latin America ( though @Boosibri has picked me over.)
And other countries.
I also own a wonderful gold aureus Judea capta for its history of commemorating the destruction of the temple
in Jerusalem sometime between 69-73 ad.
Also I own some nice older large gold....( Mexico , Peru, Colombia )
I still like to buy and modern gold and crowns too.
My most recent big purchase was the annam large gold coin from early 1840's which I recently showed. NGC 58
I still have from the millennia sale a 1739 guinea (EIC marked ) NGC 65 . A beauty and historic in my eyes since I
appreciate the history of the east india company .
That said I have a box of 40 gem minor coins all pop one. They are to cheap to sell.
Like this one for less than $1000
So I am all over the place.....not to logical. The OP is building a very thoughtful collection that he knows well and has researched. It will pay off big time one day I suspect.
The key is holding great coins ...for a long time !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I also need a theme to tie the coins together in my collection. Without one, I tend to sell them eventually, even the really special pieces. So I would not do well with a worldwide type set, (Cape Coral style) since it feels too broad and and the coins would not be as “connected”
I branch out by building mini sets around really tough/special coins that don’t quite fit, just so it will be harder to sell them. I recently did that with offcenter early US type coins.
For me, I started off a few years ago in contemporary counterfeit 8 reales, and then have gotten into Mexican War of Independence counterfeits and genuine coins. I'd like to get into Salvador provisionals next but I think I need to save up for a while first! And then be very, very patient.
I think it would be cool to stick with crown size coins from all over the world. That is what I decided to do. It gives me more targets and chances to find something cool with the look I’m after. When I lay them all side by side they all look like they belong together.
The Battle of Vigo Bay was a campaign of the War of Spanish Succession, fought between the combined French and Spanish against the combined English and Dutch. The "Succession" was the rise of Philip V of the House of Bourbon to the Spanish throne, replacing the heirless, inbred, sterile, and recently deceased Charles II.
In the fall of 1702, a returning fleet of French warships and Spanish treasure ships laden with silver and gold from Lima, Potosi, and Mexican mines was made aware that the English fleet commanded by Admiral George Rooke was attempting to capture the main Spanish port of Cádiz. Instead of running the gauntlet of English ships, the Spanish/French diverted to port in Vigo Bay, in northwestern Spain. The English caught wind of the change in course, abandoned the siege at Cádiz, and chased after the treasure in Vigo.
At Vigo bay, the English bottled in the Spanish/French, destroyed a defensive boom and fort defense, and laid waste, capturing, burning, or sinking every Spanish/French ship. Much of the treasure had already been offloaded to Spanish coffers, but what remained above waterline became English booty.
The specie (mostly silver, just a smidge of gold) was forthwith shipped off to the Tower Mint in London, where it was minted in late 1702 into Shillings, and in early 1703 into sixpence, shillings, half crowns, crowns, half guineas, guineas, and 5 guineas. The mintmaster overseeing contemporary English coinage was one Sir Isaac Newton.
To thumb their nose at the Spanish, the English inscribed coins minted from the captured treasure with the inscription "VIGO" under the bust of Queen Anne:
The war ended more of less with the Treaty of Utrecht, granting Gibraltar to England (the right Pillar of the Pillars of Hercules on pillar coinage) and denying any claim that Philip V might have to the French throne, eliminating the threat of a unified French/Spanish superpower.
Forgive the pontification. I am a geologist that has lived my whole life in what is now CA and TX but was then New Spain. The mineral wealth mined from the Cordilleran Orogenic Belt into Spanish Colonial reales and escudos is therefore the coin of my realm, and that wealth granted by geology determined in part the outcome of world history. Vigo coinage is one such tangible example.
Jules Verne also included Vigo Bay in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea: Captain Nemo's treasury was the silver sent by Rooke to the bottom of Vigo Bay, and thus accessible only to denizens of The Nautilus.
Forgive grammar errors and misspellings, I typed this out pretty quick. Fact checking is encouraged and welcomed.
Great history and even better story! Thanks for taking the time to retell it. I also enjoy your geology posts on Instagram.
@Plus00Vltra
Thank you! Truly. That was a wonderful summation. Most if it I was aware of, but a few things I wasn’t, especially the involvement of Newton!
Also, I have a geology degree. Didn’t end up using it, but it’s in my blood. Something about geology and Spanish colonial coinage I guess. 😂
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
...
@Boosibri, you have touched upon a topic that every collector must address at least once during their numismatic pursuit.
I was originally drawn to the Mexican pillar design upon reading my first copy of the Guide Book of United States Coins (the "Red Book"). Still, it would be years later when I would actually purchase my first Spanish Colonial and not until I had nearly completed a type set of U.S. coins modeled after the Dansco 7070. That was the first time I had reached the point when I was forced to decide where to direct my attention next.
Logically, it would have made sense to branch out to American colonial coinage, but there was nothing there that moved me. I rationalized that Spanish milled coins were the original colonial coins of the Americas as they circulated in United States from the colonial period well into the mid 1800's.
Now that the Spanish Colonial (mostly Mexican) collection is about to accomplish its collecting objective, I find myself at that decision point yet again. Rather than searching to expand the scope, I hope to continue by improving the quality of the collection.
Although I have toyed with the idea of expanding to early mainland Spanish coins or even Roman and Greek Ancients, I haven't made any commitments.
Thank you @Boosibri for posting your question, thus providing this opportunity to think about my own collecting objectives and how I got here.
It is great to read all the different approaches taken.
As for myself, a primary collecting goal has been to assemble a complete set of coins issued for circulation in colonial Papua New Guinea (pre-1975). In the narrowest sense, this requires only 22 coins of which 20 are readily obtainable – the gold issues of the Neu-Guinea Compagnie being the exception.
But with so little to collect, how was I to remain engaged in such an enjoyable hobby? Well… an expansion of collecting goals was one option. I initially considered a range of options:
1) expand on quality – seek upgrades
2) expand on quantity – what is wrong with a few duplicates?
3) expand on scope, categorised by:
a) purpose - include proofs and patterns
b) objects - include banknotes and tokens
c) time – include 1975 to present (post-independence)
d) geography – go beyond PNG, take a ‘British Oceania’ focus.
I have since opted to expand on quality, quantity, and scope (purpose and objects). Completion may prove unrealistic, in terms of timing and finances, but I rationalised that even achieving partial completion with these goals would be a fun and rewarding pursuit.
I am an American who has collected Canadian for over 50 years. I agree with @pruebas comments on Canadian. They are beautiful coins, and they are fun to collect. Also, varieties are becoming a market factor as more literature on them becomes available.
The state of the Canadian coin market has been interesting since the pandemic. The best coins have jumped up in value by quite a bit during the past three years or so. Not so much the classics like the 1911 dollar, the 1921 coins, or the 1936 dot cent, but rather the few MS-66 and 67 examples of more common coins. The very highest graded mint state coins and almost any specimen coins are now highly contested at auction by multiple bidders. Five years ago, it was not really that way. I think new players and registry sets are the primary factors.
Let me offer one small example in my collecting area. Stewart Blay had an 1859/58 over-dated cent in PCGS 65RB, which was tied with two others for finest known. Over the past several years, the other two examples had sold for about $6K U.S each. As I recall, Stewart's sold a few months ago for $21K U.S. It was nice, but so are the other two examples.
The lesser coins have actually gone down in value. Unless it is a finest known variety or other rarity, MS63 or 62 coins will sell, but at lower prices than five years ago.
The good and bad of Canadian is that the market still is not large. On the good side, very rare coins still sell for a small fraction of what similar U.S. coins sell for. On the bad side, as described above, you can get appreciation for the very best stuff, but nothing like the explosive appreciation seen in premier U. S. coins.
Finally, I think there is a reasonably possibility that the recent high prices for the best Canadian coins come back to earth. The high-end collector base is so thin that, if a few key folks leave the market, prices could deflate some.
http://www.victoriancent.com
@bosox I know zero about Canadian coins and that it is the main reason I do not collect them, but have seen many being sold for quite a bit and not on auctions, in example: A 1929 10C Specimen 66 for $5,600USD
There are a couple of collectors who recently have gone big into Canadian specimens. They have driven specimen prices through the roof.
I also collect specimens but have been getting blown out of the water during recent auctions. I worry that the recent very high specimen prices will not hold in the long term. Time will tell whether I am an idiot for not bidding more, or not.
http://www.victoriancent.com
Great question and I really do not have any compelling answers. So this is a coin I bought not that long ago. It really does not fit into my core collection or even side collections but I bought it because I liked the look. And even buying a coin for the look which is my excuse here... might not be an unreasonable collecting approach within the box(es) of (fill in the blank with the number of your choice). One might contemplate condition and weigh the options of whether finding a better example is probable.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This is a great question and I’ve pondered it off and on today. At this point in life I’ve developed some loose guard rails to my collecting pursuits.
Half cents and more recently bust quarters comprise my main focus and probably the most structured collecting pursuits I have. Long dry spells with half cents led me into a second series with bust quarters as a sort of side set. Similar long dry spells have turned out to be a trait with bust quarters as well. I’ve always pursued the occasional early US type coin that caught my eye as a means to quench the thirst during dry runs in the focused series.
Then I made the mistake of peaking in the Darkside room here, specifically the Latin American threads.
What a mistake, That has opened a real can of worms! First it was pondering various concepts of a Latin American box of 20, again with the idea of supplementing the dry spells with the focused series. Then I meandered into Peru, which led me into South/ North Peru confederation….
I can’t really see expanding beyond what I have going on currently, a few series with structured focus, and a couple box of 20 type concepts. Plenty at this point in life-
Might I suggest shillings as your next quest since they are diameter brethren to your half cents and quarters haha.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Every time I've changed my direction, I've disappointed myself.
I keep images of sold coins in a file. It's not healthy for me to look at that file.
>
I think the point wasn't about changing direction, but expanding to include more. It's about inclusion, not exclusion.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I currently collect coins from my former home town of Hildesheim, Germany. For almost 800 years both the bishop and the city were involved in minting coins. It is impossible to put together a full type set because especially many medieval coins are exceptionally rare and come up in auctions only once every few years or even decades. Also many of the Thalers and gold coins in general are way too expensive for me.
Since I moved away from Hildesheim a few years ago the next logical step should be to built up a collection of coins from my new home town, Göttingen. They produced their own coinage from the 1300's until the late 1600's, but luckily they didn't produce as many Thalers, gold coins or medieval coin types as Hildesheim, so I should be able to put together a more complete set of the common low- and mid-value denominations over the next years (compared to my Hildesheim collection).
Some of my favourite finds are old documents wich mention coins from both Hildesheim and / or Göttingen. At least since the late 1400's there are many written sources how these coins were valued in other cities and if they were either common or scarce in circulation, well accepted or frowned apon depending on their quality and weight.
@Göttinger that sounds like a great project.
Latin American Collection
My collection began with silver coins of the first US Mint. Well, that is where I started specializing.
My Spanish Colonial coins from Mexico City and Potosi was an offshoot from the US as they were legal tender in the US until 1857 and many were melted to make our coins.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
As a Chinese chopmark collector, I've found most of the types I can possibly find, so adding anything nice can be slow. I've branched out to include a few Chinese cash coins with chopmarks, as well as Japanese coins. Both of these are on the outer edge of chopmarked coins, but I think both are closely related. Want to keep scratching the itch so I have to expand.
In my case, my interest has been more for Reales Bust & Pillar from Mexico, Peru, Bolivia & Chile. Have also bought coins from other countries and many other type ones mostly from Mexico.
To expand I never had bought coins from China and for many other ones, but in specific China, started to look at these two as start, not the best ones but not bad I think:
Dollar
10 Cents
My expansion, if I get to that point, will include earlier types of Spanish colonial. Probably silver mostly, but may include the occasional copper and gold piece.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
... gold piece.
I sold all my world gold coins back on early 2023, eight coins and two ounces, that I bought when gold was around $1300.
I might end up returning on buying again maybe the Mexico 20 Pesos with aztect calendar and per year and complete a set, these are not too expensive, there are also the Hidalgo minors... will see.
I sold all my gold when prices went above 2k an ounce as well. I do think it would be cool to get a couple nice gold cobs and a few milled pieces. I have had one before, it was only a 2E.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Please be very careful buying China as there are some good and not so good counterfeits floating around
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Thank you!, I am aware of that, these two are from a dealer that I know and have bought some of my coins.
Edit: As mentioned just looking, not bought yet.
@Boosibri here is something cool for your new box of 20.
1795 Indian Peace Medal of George Washington
Your welcome.
The next logical expansion to my core collection is another portrait 8 Reales from Mexico. Ideally a previously undocumented variety. Then another one and so on...
8 Reales Madness Collection