@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Perhaps, but Laura has been very open about her chronic and serious health issues that recently resulted in a (thus far) successful kidney transplant. That isn't child's play, and if you are running the sort of far flung numismatic empire she has her hands in then it might be a good time to scale back for her longterm health.
One thing I always appreciated was Laura's auction descriptions that I thought couldn't be replaced by anyone but her. In today's day of AI however, I wonder if the day to day operations of the service could be run by others and ChatGPT could be used to create new auction descriptions.
I will certainly miss their auctions. Jessica, Laura, and Greg were always incredibly helpful. I very much enjoyed lot viewing at their office and chatting with them too! Legend has been a great source for my collection. Here are just a few wins from over the years:
I’m sorry to hear that Legend is going out of the auction business. I bought some nice coins from their sales over the years, and always found them both friendly and professional to deal with.
It’s no secret that the coin auction business is tougher than ever these days!
It wasn’t so long ago that the vast majority of major US coin collections were auctioned by either Stack’s or Heritage.
But now, just look at the dollar value of what Great Collections sells EVERY WEEK.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@skier07 said:
I’m wondering if Greg Cohen’s departure has anything to do with this. I believe he wrote most of the auction descriptions for Legend.
I wonder how many auction houses are using AI for auction descriptions these days.
I wonder why one would need AI for a numismatic description. The description of the coin is based upon its physical characteristics, which would not be described by AI, while the history of issues is already known and essentially plug-and-play as is.
@skier07 said:
I’m wondering if Greg Cohen’s departure has anything to do with this. I believe he wrote most of the auction descriptions for Legend.
I wonder how many auction houses are using AI for auction descriptions these days.
I wonder why one would need AI for a numismatic description. The description of the coin is based upon its physical characteristics, which would not be described by AI, while the history of issues is already known and essentially plug-and-play as is.
The key to generative AI is the query. You can get it to write history or you can get it to write based on the assigned grade. Or both.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
In addition to profitability, one thing that struck me about the site is the potential importance of Laura's descriptions and the Legend / Laura affiliation. If Laura isn't participating and writing descriptions, how much brand equity and goodwill would be transferred in a sale?
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
Agreed. Similar to what I mentioned above, the brand equity is in Laura remaining active. A question is what kind of activity was desired. If it was just writing descriptions, using GenAI with Laura doing proof reading may make it easier on her time.
We already have multiple forum members creating AI-based solutions for coin evaluation, so I'm guessing something could be done to make the job of copyediting the description easier than say writing ones from scratch.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
I think she made the wrong choice with her two businesses. She should have closed the coin business, not the auction house. If she had someone willing to buy the auction house and pay her as an employee to stay on, she would have the better QOL (less stress) and guaranteed income.
She’s in the position now where she still has to run a successful coin business, and if the market is actually turning downward, the risk of losing that one is elevated.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
I think she made the wrong choice with her two businesses. She should have closed the coin business, not the auction house. If she had someone willing to buy the auction house and pay her as an employee to stay on, she would have the better QOL (less stress) and guaranteed income.
She’s in the position now where she still has to run a successful coin business, and if the market is actually turning downward, the risk of losing that one is elevated.
That may be the more analytical business choice, but there's more to that than running a business. I think her passion is helping build great, legendary sets, so there is that.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
In addition to profitability, one thing that struck me about the site is the potential importance of Laura's descriptions and the Legend / Laura affiliation. If Laura isn't participating and writing descriptions, how much brand equity and goodwill would be transferred in a sale?
I’m not slamming her but her auction descriptions weren’t special. Some would even opine some of them were terribly written. I found some of the descriptions humorous but not what I would want or expect in a professional auction description.
This said, I do wonder if the association with Legend Numismatics (not necessarily Laura) did affect the profitability. Legend does have a small cohort of die hard fans. It would be interesting to see what, if any effect, this had on Legend Auctions.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
I think she made the wrong choice with her two businesses. She should have closed the coin business, not the auction house. If she had someone willing to buy the auction house and pay her as an employee to stay on, she would have the better QOL (less stress) and guaranteed income.
She’s in the position now where she still has to run a successful coin business, and if the market is actually turning downward, the risk of losing that one is elevated.
That may be the more analytical business choice, but there's more to that than running a business. I think her passion is helping build great, legendary sets, so there is that.
This may very well be the case. She is approaching normal retirement age, and she may be less concerned about financial risks if she can afford to walk away and is doing this basically as a paid hobby or part time job.
@1madman said:
Anyone think this is the start of a downturn in the coin market?
Doesn’t something have to be the first domino in the line?
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
Agreed. Similar to what I mentioned above, the brand equity is in Laura remaining active. A question is what kind of activity was desired. If it was just writing descriptions, using GenAI with Laura doing proof reading may make it easier on her time.
We already have multiple forum members creating AI-based solutions for coin evaluation, so I'm guessing something could be done to make the job of copyediting the description easier than say writing ones from scratch.
That brought a chuckle!
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I would hope that a coin dealer that build the type of marquee collections Laura and Legend did over the years is in a position that she can finish her career as she fits with no financial concerns going forward. If Legend is not financially set then you need to question the dealer profitability equation as a whole. I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Are most other Dealers living pay check to paycheck like many Americans?
I enjoy the coins I purchased from Legend Auctions.
@willy said:
I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Who are some dealers that have some of the best collections ever? I know dealers handle many great coins but how many of them have great collections?
Jeff Shevlin comes to mind for So-Called Dollars and Allan Rowe comes to mind for CC dollar errors.
@willy said:
I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Who are some dealers that have some of the best collections ever? I know dealers handle many great coins but how many of them have great collections?
Jeff Shevlin comes to mind for So-Called Dollars and Allan Rowe comes to mind for CC dollar errors.
I don't know him so I don't know if he considers himself a dealer or not but @tradedollarnut has built and owned many world class collections for himself.
@willy said:
I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Who are some dealers that have some of the best collections ever? I know dealers handle many great coins but how many of them have great collections?
Jeff Shevlin comes to mind for So-Called Dollars and Allan Rowe comes to mind for CC dollar errors.
He's talking about dealers building collections for clients.
@Farmer1961 said:
Since I only collect low grade "dreck" coins it has no bearing on me!
Nonsense. Even her infamous “dreck free auction “ had some rather pedestrian coins including a homely looking NGC seated coin that lacked a CAC sticker to boot. 🤣
Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of nice coins that have passed through there but not every coin that was sold is museum quality. Every auction has lackluster pieces.
@willy said:
I would hope that a coin dealer that build the type of marquee collections Laura and Legend did over the years is in a position that she can finish her career as she fits with no financial concerns going forward. If Legend is not financially set then you need to question the dealer profitability equation as a whole. I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Are most other Dealers living pay check to paycheck like many Americans?
I enjoy the coins I purchased from Legend Auctions.
Paycheck to paycheck rather overstates the liquidity issue. But coin dealers aren't automatically rich. I think people sometimes think they are wealthier than they are because they are buying and selling gold and silver. But GROSS is not the same as NET.
I buy $10 million in coins. I sell them for $11 million. There's a $1 million pre-tax profit that needs to pay all business expenses plus taxes and then you take home a paycheck that is far short of $1 million. And most coin dealers don't do $11 million per year.
If you have a store, over time you probably accumulate inventory where much of your wealth may be located.
If you run an auction house, you could sell $100 million in coins and not make any money. You also don't even need to have ever had significant capital because you didn't own the coins.
I'm not saying this about Laura or Legends. I wouldn't know, though they seem to have done okay. But you mentioned coin dealers in general. I know a lot of them who are not wealthy and are living largely paycheck to paycheck.
Coin economics are ridiculous compared to most retail. If I buy an ounce of gold, I'm going to spend $2000 to make at most $100. You probably have to buy 5 to 10 ounces of gold per week just to pay store expenses without any paycheck.
@willy said:
I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Who are some dealers that have some of the best collections ever? I know dealers handle many great coins but how many of them have great collections?
Jeff Shevlin comes to mind for So-Called Dollars and Allan Rowe comes to mind for CC dollar errors.
He's talking about dealers building collections for clients.
Good point. Usually the dealers that build the best collections are the ones that build great relationships with collectors.
I’m not particularly fond of the negative thoughts in this thread. I’ve seen all types of businesses come and go. Those that are tied very closely to the owner’s persona and connections sell only if the owner stays and transition to new clients. Happens all the time in professional business succession. Laura is a professional. I’ve seen some owners stay on for 6mo to a year, and even two years. Others just turn the lights out and call it a day. Individuals' circumstances are different.
LA was a great boutique auction venue for certain coins and clientele, and I’m sad to see it go. LA was no different than other boutique firms, just with a different focus like DLRC, Steven Hayden for tokens, etc. (Who does tokens better than Steve Hayden??) I would rather celebrate the great experiences I had as a collector selling one of my better sets with LA. Jessica flew to my town, came to my office and we went through each coin one by one as she made meticulous notes about them. Then there was a full hard cover catalog that I have to memorialize my classic commem collection (Unforgettable) which brought some new price records. Also the times at the PCGS show auctions where I had a great time with fellow collectors (both New Orleans and Vegas). I bought and sold some great coins through this auction house in several series.
@Farmer1961 said:
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
@Farmer1961 said:
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Farmer1961 said:
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
@Farmer1961 said:
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
@Farmer1961 said:
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
I guess that makes all my coins widgets. Honey, I'm heading to the safe deposit box to examine my widgets!
All the coins of most of us are probably widgets. The vast majority of all coins are widgets.
I wouldn't take it that far, as widgets are characterized by uniformity. So a coin at any grade level that stands out from the crowd (through its color, strike or other distinguishing characteristic) isn't a widget.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
I guess that makes all my coins widgets. Honey, I'm heading to the safe deposit box to examine my widgets!
All the coins of most of us are probably widgets. The vast majority of all coins are widgets.
I wouldn't take it that far, as widgets are characterized by uniformity. So a coin at any grade level that stands out from the crowd (through its color, strike or other distinguishing characteristic) isn't a widget.
I think that still leaves the vast majority as widgets. Of 10,000 MS65 1881-S Morgans, how many "stand out"? 10? 100?
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
I guess that makes all my coins widgets. Honey, I'm heading to the safe deposit box to examine my widgets!
All the coins of most of us are probably widgets. The vast majority of all coins are widgets.
I wouldn't take it that far, as widgets are characterized by uniformity. So a coin at any grade level that stands out from the crowd (through its color, strike or other distinguishing characteristic) isn't a widget.
I think that still leaves the vast majority as widgets. Of 10,000 MS65 1881-S Morgans, how many "stand out"? 10? 100?
I'd guess a lot more than your higher number (representing 1%). To be fair, the distinguishing features needn't even be positive ones, right?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@coinbuf said:
I have never bought or sold a single coin from Legend or their auctions so it is of no consequence to me, sounds like it will be unfortunate for a few here.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
I guess that makes all my coins widgets. Honey, I'm heading to the safe deposit box to examine my widgets!
All the coins of most of us are probably widgets. The vast majority of all coins are widgets.
I wouldn't take it that far, as widgets are characterized by uniformity. So a coin at any grade level that stands out from the crowd (through its color, strike or other distinguishing characteristic) isn't a widget.
I think that still leaves the vast majority as widgets. Of 10,000 MS65 1881-S Morgans, how many "stand out"? 10? 100?
I'd guess a lot more than your higher number (representing 1%). To be fair, the distinguishing features needn't even be positive ones, right?
1000? That still leaves "the vast majority" as widgets.
If the distinguishing features are negative, I think it becomes "dreck". 😉
I think that still leaves the vast majority as widgets. Of 10,000 MS65 1881-S Morgans, how many "stand out"? 10? 100?
It's subjective. I consider every single 1881-S Morgan in existence a "widget". (No different for many other scarcer but still very common coins.) Collectors overwhelmingly like it anyway.
Comments
One thing I always appreciated was Laura's auction descriptions that I thought couldn't be replaced by anyone but her. In today's day of AI however, I wonder if the day to day operations of the service could be run by others and ChatGPT could be used to create new auction descriptions.
Get the rope 😤
We still love ya bro
I will certainly miss their auctions. Jessica, Laura, and Greg were always incredibly helpful. I very much enjoyed lot viewing at their office and chatting with them too! Legend has been a great source for my collection. Here are just a few wins from over the years:
I’m sorry to hear that Legend is going out of the auction business. I bought some nice coins from their sales over the years, and always found them both friendly and professional to deal with.
It’s no secret that the coin auction business is tougher than ever these days!
It wasn’t so long ago that the vast majority of major US coin collections were auctioned by either Stack’s or Heritage.
But now, just look at the dollar value of what Great Collections sells EVERY WEEK.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I’ve bought my fair share of coins from them and I was always a very happy customer.
I’m wondering if Greg Cohen’s departure has anything to do with this. I believe he wrote most of the auction descriptions for Legend.
I wonder how many auction houses are using AI for auction descriptions these days.
I wonder why one would need AI for a numismatic description. The description of the coin is based upon its physical characteristics, which would not be described by AI, while the history of issues is already known and essentially plug-and-play as is.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Got an email today stating the above closer from Laura, glad, she is doing well after her surgery, sad to see another great site closing.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I hope she makes a full recovery. I've always enjoyed her commentary and wish her well.
…
….
When Blay chose GC...
They got top dollar for their customers, probably more than GC and HA in many cases. I always appreciated Steve Deeds and Superior.
Best Laura, and it was a great run! Thank you for selling the sets that you did for me. Truly a great reach and wonderful catalog for my memories1
Or did Greg Cohen leave because he knew they were wrapping up operations?
The key to generative AI is the query. You can get it to write history or you can get it to write based on the assigned grade. Or both.
Their business seemed fine...HA and GC and SB seem to be doin well....the hobby has grown a ton since Covid a few years back....their time (esp. considering health and QOL) and profit margins might be better just doing LN and not LRCA.
Or not. Despite all the hype and hyperbole, it's entirely possible that smaller really wasn't better, and the business never scaled to the point of being profitable.
I get health and QOL. I don't get a profitable business that someone spent over a decade building, with a good brand and reputation, not having an enterprise value that would encourage those involved day-to-day to want to continue, or for someone in the industry to want to buy it.
Besides health and QOL, I think the fact that it wasn't worth anything to anyone else as a going concern means the business was the exact opposite of fine. As does the great length the owner is now taking to let everyone know they are separate businesses, after tying them at the hip through branding and cross promotion from Day One.
In addition to profitability, one thing that struck me about the site is the potential importance of Laura's descriptions and the Legend / Laura affiliation. If Laura isn't participating and writing descriptions, how much brand equity and goodwill would be transferred in a sale?
Laura has stated that she had numerous purchase offers but they were contingent on her remaining with the company and for QOL she just didn't want to or couldn't continue to do that.
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Agreed. Similar to what I mentioned above, the brand equity is in Laura remaining active. A question is what kind of activity was desired. If it was just writing descriptions, using GenAI with Laura doing proof reading may make it easier on her time.
We already have multiple forum members creating AI-based solutions for coin evaluation, so I'm guessing something could be done to make the job of copyediting the description easier than say writing ones from scratch.
I think she made the wrong choice with her two businesses. She should have closed the coin business, not the auction house. If she had someone willing to buy the auction house and pay her as an employee to stay on, she would have the better QOL (less stress) and guaranteed income.
She’s in the position now where she still has to run a successful coin business, and if the market is actually turning downward, the risk of losing that one is elevated.
That may be the more analytical business choice, but there's more to that than running a business. I think her passion is helping build great, legendary sets, so there is that.
I’m not slamming her but her auction descriptions weren’t special. Some would even opine some of them were terribly written. I found some of the descriptions humorous but not what I would want or expect in a professional auction description.
This said, I do wonder if the association with Legend Numismatics (not necessarily Laura) did affect the profitability. Legend does have a small cohort of die hard fans. It would be interesting to see what, if any effect, this had on Legend Auctions.
This may very well be the case. She is approaching normal retirement age, and she may be less concerned about financial risks if she can afford to walk away and is doing this basically as a paid hobby or part time job.
That brought a chuckle!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I would hope that a coin dealer that build the type of marquee collections Laura and Legend did over the years is in a position that she can finish her career as she fits with no financial concerns going forward. If Legend is not financially set then you need to question the dealer profitability equation as a whole. I do not know how profitable coin dealers are but they build some of the best coin collections ever. I know they have solid financial backing and can afford to buy the most expensive coins.
Are most other Dealers living pay check to paycheck like many Americans?
I enjoy the coins I purchased from Legend Auctions.
Who are some dealers that have some of the best collections ever? I know dealers handle many great coins but how many of them have great collections?
Jeff Shevlin comes to mind for So-Called Dollars and Allan Rowe comes to mind for CC dollar errors.
I don't know him so I don't know if he considers himself a dealer or not but @tradedollarnut has built and owned many world class collections for himself.
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Since I only collect low grade "dreck" coins it has no bearing on me!
He's talking about dealers building collections for clients.
Nonsense. Even her infamous “dreck free auction “ had some rather pedestrian coins including a homely looking NGC seated coin that lacked a CAC sticker to boot. 🤣
Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of nice coins that have passed through there but not every coin that was sold is museum quality. Every auction has lackluster pieces.
Paycheck to paycheck rather overstates the liquidity issue. But coin dealers aren't automatically rich. I think people sometimes think they are wealthier than they are because they are buying and selling gold and silver. But GROSS is not the same as NET.
I buy $10 million in coins. I sell them for $11 million. There's a $1 million pre-tax profit that needs to pay all business expenses plus taxes and then you take home a paycheck that is far short of $1 million. And most coin dealers don't do $11 million per year.
If you have a store, over time you probably accumulate inventory where much of your wealth may be located.
If you run an auction house, you could sell $100 million in coins and not make any money. You also don't even need to have ever had significant capital because you didn't own the coins.
I'm not saying this about Laura or Legends. I wouldn't know, though they seem to have done okay. But you mentioned coin dealers in general. I know a lot of them who are not wealthy and are living largely paycheck to paycheck.
Coin economics are ridiculous compared to most retail. If I buy an ounce of gold, I'm going to spend $2000 to make at most $100. You probably have to buy 5 to 10 ounces of gold per week just to pay store expenses without any paycheck.
Good point. Usually the dealers that build the best collections are the ones that build great relationships with collectors.
I’m not particularly fond of the negative thoughts in this thread. I’ve seen all types of businesses come and go. Those that are tied very closely to the owner’s persona and connections sell only if the owner stays and transition to new clients. Happens all the time in professional business succession. Laura is a professional. I’ve seen some owners stay on for 6mo to a year, and even two years. Others just turn the lights out and call it a day. Individuals' circumstances are different.
LA was a great boutique auction venue for certain coins and clientele, and I’m sad to see it go. LA was no different than other boutique firms, just with a different focus like DLRC, Steven Hayden for tokens, etc. (Who does tokens better than Steve Hayden??) I would rather celebrate the great experiences I had as a collector selling one of my better sets with LA. Jessica flew to my town, came to my office and we went through each coin one by one as she made meticulous notes about them. Then there was a full hard cover catalog that I have to memorialize my classic commem collection (Unforgettable) which brought some new price records. Also the times at the PCGS show auctions where I had a great time with fellow collectors (both New Orleans and Vegas). I bought and sold some great coins through this auction house in several series.
If Laura didn't release coin reports belittling less expensive coins referring to them as dreck or widgets I wouldn't have made the comment.
Her message on dreck and widgets wasn't about price. Some of the dreck and widgets were expensive.
That’s correct. While I didn’t like the use of those terms, they pertained much more to poor quality than value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Dreck might be insulting, but widgets is pretty harmless and fairly descriptive in my opinion.
Agree, my HR saint is a 40k+ widget.
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Yes. To me, "widget" just refers to a coin that you could buy any time you want one, irrespective of price.
I guess that makes all my coins widgets. Honey, I'm heading to the safe deposit box to examine my widgets!
All the coins of most of us are probably widgets. The vast majority of all coins are widgets.
I wouldn't take it that far, as widgets are characterized by uniformity. So a coin at any grade level that stands out from the crowd (through its color, strike or other distinguishing characteristic) isn't a widget.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think that still leaves the vast majority as widgets. Of 10,000 MS65 1881-S Morgans, how many "stand out"? 10? 100?
I'd guess a lot more than your higher number (representing 1%). To be fair, the distinguishing features needn't even be positive ones, right?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Same.
1000? That still leaves "the vast majority" as widgets.
If the distinguishing features are negative, I think it becomes "dreck". 😉
It's subjective. I consider every single 1881-S Morgan in existence a "widget". (No different for many other scarcer but still very common coins.) Collectors overwhelmingly like it anyway.
Too much focus on two words - widget and dreck.
There are 4 billion women on the planet. Does that make Taylor Swift a widget?
Are the swifties all dreck? 
Too be fair, and I think you would agree, Laura tends to attract polarized opinions.
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