As most of you are aware, Joe’s good pal Oscar Meyer is MIA.
All we know is he was last seen at the local library with a stack of encyclopedias trying to figure out how Charlie McAvoy turned Ullmark into Hasek. 😂😂😂
He’s going to be a while so he sent this to cheer everyone up. 😂
We all miss his dearly. 😇
The 1970’s Bruins - Canadiens rivalry the way our pal Oscar remembers it.
😂😂😂
You see Montreal had access to all the great French Canadian players before 1980 according to Penny Lane. That picture proves him right once again. 😂😂😂
yeah, figured this Applejacks yob was going to turn out to be that "Goldenage" guy. The guy who was trapped in the 70's and 80's....the guy who I think got banned. It's the same copy and pasted uselessness from hockeyreference without any context, and the same pointless/circular arguments.
thinking that there is some GOAT goalie coach is some unintentional high comedy. Like anyone could make a distinction from a guy like Mitch Korn (coached everyone from Hasek to Rinne to Sorokin and pretty every goalie in Jersey's system since Brodeur) etc, or Benoit Allaire, Ian Clark, Jimmy Waite, even Bill Ranford among others.
Pretty much every goalie plays the same style today. Every goalie is taught to cut down angles above anything else. When the puck carrier is here, you setup here. When the puck is moved side to side in a certain zone, you setup there. When the puck is moving around the point, you setup here and so on. You drift out to the top of the crease here when the puck is here. Then it comes down to goalie size, rebound control skill, and various other things that can't be taught ie athleticism, and most importantly, the ability/effort of the defenders in front of him.
Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.
right, but any goalie is a product of the team's system. Just look at Ullmark. Showed high end potential, but the stats were never there in Buffalo because their defense isn't any better than the Oil's. But on Boston, he's all of sudden Hasek ,when on most any other team, save for Boston and Vegas, maybe the Islanders, the Covid era Lightning, he's probably an upper mid-tier to lower top end goalie. A step below a Hellebuyck. Instead he's a Vezina candidate. Just like Rask, just like Tea Party Thomas. This is why you have teams like the Avs and Carolina, smart teams, generally, who aren't paying a goalie top end money who just want league average goaltending. We don't need you to steal a game, basically.
Yes, agreed on Bruins goaltending. I don't think Hellebuyck put up Vezina worthy stats in the not too distant past because of the Jets players in front of him. I think he's still better than most goalies in the Show, certainly the best one who was remotely available to acquire during the offseason, and if you put him on a team that had great offense like McD+Leon, he'd have a chance to shine even more than Linus did with the B's last year.
I'm not down on Hellebuyck or anything, I think he's somewhere around the top 5 in talent alone. I'm not sure I wouldn't take him over Vasilevskiy (even if he were healthy) right now. So Sorokin, Shesterkin, Oettinger would be the only "for sures"....Thatcher Demko would be the wildcard. Drop him onto Carolina and I think he's an automatic Vezina-quality goaler.
But think, Hellebuyck won that Vezina with very little in front of him. That Jets d-core was terrible. Half of those guys are either out of the league, playing in Europe, or on the 3rd pairs of other teams and Josh Morrissey wasn't what he is now, at least then. So I think it's just Morrissey and Pionk left from that season.
thinking that there is some GOAT goalie coach is some unintentional high comedy. Like anyone could make a distinction from a guy like Mitch Korn (coached everyone from Hasek to Rinne to Sorokin and pretty every goalie in Jersey's system since Brodeur) etc, or Benoit Allaire, Ian Clark, Jimmy Waite, even Bill Ranford among others.
FWIW, Tretjak was a goalie coach for both Hasek and Brodeur (Hasek and Belfour when with Chicago; Brodeur was coached by Tretjak in his goaltending academy prior to NJ). I am in no way saying that those players became the players that they did just because they were coached by Tretjak. It probably helped though I'm sure Hasek and Brodeur would have been successful regardless.
FWIW, Tretjak was a goalie coach for both Hasek and Brodeur (Hasek and Belfour when with Chicago; Brodeur was coached by Tretjak in his goaltending academy prior to NJ). I am in no way saying that those players became the players that they did just because they were coached by Tretjak. It probably helped though I'm sure Hasek and Brodeur would have been successful regardless.
sure and all of these guys were also coached by someone else prior to getting to the NHL. Hasek was already in the NHL before Mike Keenan hired Tretjak. He was initially just a "consultant". Then guys like Dave King had already coached Belfour and so on. The Hawks have always done very well drafting and developing goalies anyway...or in recent vintage, just yanking them out of Europe as intl free agents - Raanta, Niemi etc.
FWIW, Tretjak was a goalie coach for both Hasek and Brodeur (Hasek and Belfour when with Chicago; Brodeur was coached by Tretjak in his goaltending academy prior to NJ). I am in no way saying that those players became the players that they did just because they were coached by Tretjak. It probably helped though I'm sure Hasek and Brodeur would have been successful regardless.
sure and all of these guys were also coached by someone else prior to getting to the NHL. Hasek was already in the NHL before Mike Keenan hired Tretjak. He was initially just a "consultant". Then guys like Dave King had already coached Belfour and so on. The Hawks have always done very well drafting and developing goalies anyway...or in recent vintage, just yanking them out of Europe as intl free agents - Raanta, Niemi etc.
I know. I'm a pretty big believer in the natural talent of goalies and their work ethic in how hard they choose to push their own talents in order to reach their potential, not disagreeing with you. Just thought it was a neat coincidental moment among their careers, that's all; not crediting it as a reason for anything in particular down the line.
@lanemyer85 said:The Hawks have always done very well drafting and developing goalies anyway...or in recent vintage, just yanking them out of Europe as intl free agents - Raanta, Niemi etc.
Lankinen is another that they pulled as an undrafted free agent that way (even if he's not looking as good now as he did when he first got to Chicago)
yeah that wasn't knocking the Tretjak connection. I'm sure he did something to make Hasek better. Although that would be very difficult to pinpoint given Hasek's unorthodox "floppy" style that was often heavily reliant on his high end athleticism. I mean he could be on the list of best pure athletes to ever play hockey and pretty much no one would know about it. Supposedly good enough to play European club soccer and I believe once was under consideration for a Czech Olympic ski team tryout. Maybe not the Olympics but something like that...a legit competition.
but getting back to guys like Mitch Korn and Ian Clark, those are guys who are everywhere. They teach the teachers. They go to college programs, Junior wherever. Clark is the guy who doesn't even work for the Canucks but has been side-coaching Demko. He helped turn about Markstrom and refurbishing latter career Luongo so on. Just getting back to bootleg-Goldenage's post to the lunacy of thinking any one coach is responsible for any one goalie. Most of these guys now are almost like MLB hitters where they have their own side-guy or whatever you want to tab it.
Last time we heard anything sensible from him was when the Broad Street babies won the Stanley Cup. He’s been busy on the Patriots thread saying how Belichick should be fired, but it’s nice to see him back here.
Not sure what Tretiak coaching goalies has to do with McDavid winning the Stanley Cup though.
Perhaps milwvrn can fill me in on that one. 😂
Here’s another QMJHL all star and NHL all star and HOF to add to the pre-1980 Meyer list. He was the first Canadian 😂, oops Ranger, to be inducted into the HOF.
FWIW, Tretjak was a goalie coach for both Hasek and Brodeur (Hasek and Belfour when with Chicago; Brodeur was coached by Tretjak in his goaltending academy prior to NJ). I am in no way saying that those players became the players that they did just because they were coached by Tretjak. It probably helped though I'm sure Hasek and Brodeur would have been successful regardless.
sure and all of these guys were also coached by someone else prior to getting to the NHL. Hasek was already in the NHL before Mike Keenan hired Tretjak. He was initially just a "consultant". Then guys like Dave King had already coached Belfour and so on. The Hawks have always done very well drafting and developing goalies anyway...or in recent vintage, just yanking them out of Europe as intl free agents - Raanta, Niemi etc.
I know. I'm a pretty big believer in the natural talent of goalies and their work ethic in how hard they choose to push their own talents in order to reach their potential, not disagreeing with you. Just thought it was a neat coincidental moment among their careers, that's all; not crediting it as a reason for anything in particular down the line.
I’m still trying to figure out what this has to do with McDavid winning a Cup.
I know. I'm a pretty big believer in the natural talent of goalies and their work ethic in how hard they choose to push their own talents in order to reach their potential, not disagreeing with you. Just thought it was a neat coincidental moment among their careers, that's all; not crediting it as a reason for anything in particular down the line.
I’m still trying to figure out what this has to do with McDavid winning a Cup.
It supports the hypothesis that Hellebuyck has enough natural talent to have been worth pursuing by the Edmonton organization (IMO pushing for a trade for RNH) with the intent of replacing Jack Campbell during the off season in order to increase the franchise's chances at a deeper playoff run, as compared to what they had on the roster in June. They did not go that route and it is probably too late for that move now. However, the feeling is still that Edmonton needs to improve their goalie situation.
that would certainly help, but there's a reason Hellebuyck ended up resigning in The Peg when during the off-season it was leaked that he would be testing free agency after this season. The money. The Jets and Hellebuyck's agent shopped him, it was reported that he was looking for $8.5 to 9m per year on an extension....and crickets. The days of the Price, Vasilevskiy and Bob goalie $9-10 mil per year contracts are all but over. More teams will be going with the old Wings (second Osgood era) Hawks (Crawford at a bargain + recycle backups from Europe) or full on rideshare goalie tandems.
Meaning no one wants to pay any one goalie more than $6m anymore, preferably 5 mil. Then $1-2mil on the backup. For example, I think we can all agree that Vegas and Colorado are among the two best teams in the NHL over the last 3- 4 years. Vegas is only paying their tandem $5.66m total. The Avs only $4.175m total. Boston is going to have to trade Swayman either at the deadline or after the season as he'll be an RFA after the season and will double his salary. Thus, Sorokin and Hellebuyck will be the high salary outliers and largely because those teams are desperate to keep their own drafted players since no one wants to go there in FA.
Barring an extreme cap soaring, there's no way the Oil could pay Hellebuyck $8m per when following 24-25, Leon and Bouchard are up, and then McJesus again the following season. Leon's only making $8.5. That will go up $4.5-5, at minimum and Bouchard at least $3.5-4m per year more too.
Yes, careful cap spending is important with goalies. If Edmonton can't move Jack Campbell in a trade, they might end up having to put him on waivers in order to get away from his overly generous contract, though I'm not sure any other organization would want to take him on at that price.
@lanemyer85 said:
Boston is going to have to trade Swayman either at the deadline or after the season as he'll be an RFA after the season and will double his salary.
I think Swayman is better. It’s going to be interesting watching that play out.
Doesn’t matter who leaves though, Essensa will turn the next one into another Tim Thomas.
Btw, I really enjoy reading your posts, and if you ever mind us checking each other into the boards every once in a while then just give me a two hander across my ankles.
😉
^^^^^^^ this. I dont know thing one about hockey, but I did eagerly follow Mcdavids scoring season last year. Is it like football where the opposing team can scheme away your best player if there is no number 2 threat?
The Oil have tried to switch their defensive system (now more of a zone) to rival that of Boston & Vegas without taking into account those teams built their roster with players who could play that system...ie guys who actually play defense, competently. But these are the Oil so the end result is a bunch of defensively apathetic guys leaving Grand Canyon sized gaps in the slot (over 70% of all goals are scored from the slot). I watched about half of their last game and Evander Kane singlehandedly gave up two goals himself by losing his check & failing to beat it back in the Oil's own end. That's just who they are.
Slot pass success rate 50.2% <---comically bad (dead last)
Slot shots against - (dead last)
Goals allowed from slot - 38 (31st)
Inner slot shots against (31st)
McJesus is banged up. Goaltending is not good enough to bail them out or steal games.
Power Play conversion rates (league average is around 20.2%)
22-23 - 32.4% (1st by 6%)
23-24 - 23.9% (10th)
Penalty Kill rate
22-23 - 76.1%
23-24 - 70% (30th)
when McJesus & Draisaitl aren't scoring their way out of trouble, all of the other flaws are exposed. There's always been a depth scoring problem in the McJesus/Leon era. Since there's no depth, you can't just bench guys. There have been some vague rumors of the Oil attempting to swing a trade for Jordan Binnington, and that's not the answer either. Ken Holland appears to be getting (at least somewhat) undermined by (CEO/ex-player agent) Jeff Jackson (who allegedly/reportedly/probably made the call on the Woodcroft sacking) so it's all a mess.
For those advanced hockey thinkers here just look at the Bruins vs Oilers goalies on the expected save stats.
Look at the positives for Swayman compared to the negatives for the Oilers.
This is why Essensa not only makes 5 million per, but has held his job for 20 years.
Vegas and Boston have goalies that are making remarkable saves way above what the Oilers are getting.
Minnesota doesn’t look that great either. Oilers have company.
Now, what’s wrong with Connor ?
Not Bedard, McDavid ?
@craig44 said:
^^^^^^^ this. I dont know thing one about hockey, but I did eagerly follow Mcdavids scoring season last year. Is it like football where the opposing team can scheme away your best player if there is no number 2 threat?
Yes and no. The home team gets to put their guys on the ice last, so you can match up with the visiting teams top line.
With McDavid, up until last year, he was primarily an assist guy, so if he has linemates that are having trouble scoring goals, he's going to suffer.
My guy Kaprizov has been passing to guys all year, putting them in great scoring chances, but much of the time his team mate can't put the puck in the net. This makes it look like he's having a bad year because people only look at points.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@craig44 said:
^^^^^^^ this. I dont know thing one about hockey, but I did eagerly follow Mcdavids scoring season last year. Is it like football where the opposing team can scheme away your best player if there is no number 2 threat?
My guy Kaprizov has been passing to guys all year, putting them in great scoring chances, but much of the time his team mate can't put the puck in the net. This makes it look like he's having a bad year because people only look at points.
He’s having a terrible year so far, but his goalies are also. He’s on pace for a -50. Anything over -20 is bad.
There are plus guys on the Wild, but his line reeks.
Here is your problem, you don't understand hockey.
+/- is meaningless!
Kaprizov is by far the best forward on the Wild. He's putting guys in all alone on the goalie several times a game, but they're not finishing. I can't remember ever seeing so many guys not being able to raise the puck or shooting it right into the goalie's chest. Kirill has been getting his shots on goal, but the goals haven't been coming as of yet, so his goal scoring is down a bit. To call him or his play "terrible" is completely ignorant, I watch all the Wild games, he's usually the best player on the ice for either team.
The defense/goaltending has been horrible, Fleury has a save percentage of.879 and Gustavsson's is .872. The team is giving up 4.2 goals per game.
This is exactly why +/- is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS, Kaprizov's team mates are not scoring when he makes a great pass, and his defense/goaltending is a sieve right now. Add that to the fact that he is first or second in TOI in the league and OF COURSE his +/- is going to be bad.
When your team gives up a lot of goals and you have the most time on the ice, your +/- is going to be bad, that doesn't mean you are a bad player. Please read and reread that until you understand it. If you can't comprehend the concept, I can't help you, please switch to soccer.
The Wild have also been playing from behind a lot this year (big surprise) and Kaprizov ends up on the ice pushing hard to score, when you and your team mates don't, the other team often ends up with a quality scoring chance.
If you're looking at +/- to evaluate and compare players, you will be wrong most of the time.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
Here is your problem, you don't understand hockey.
+/- is meaningless!
Kaprizov is by far the best forward on the Wild. He's putting guys in all alone on the goalie several times a game, but they're not finishing. I can't remember ever seeing so many guys not being able to raise the puck or shooting it right into the goalie's chest. Kirill has been getting his shots on goal, but the goals haven't been coming as of yet, so his goal scoring is down a bit. To call him or his play "terrible" is completely ignorant, I watch all the Wild games, he's usually the best player on the ice for either team.
The defense/goaltending has been horrible, Fleury has a save percentage of.879 and Gustavsson's is .872. The team is giving up 4.2 goals per game.
This is exactly why +/- is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS, Kaprizov's team mates are not scoring when he makes a great pass, and his defense/goaltending is a sieve right now. Add that to the fact that he is first or second in TOI in the league and OF COURSE his +/- is going to be bad.
When your team gives up a lot of goals and you have the most time on the ice, your +/- is going to be bad, that doesn't mean you are a bad player. Please read and reread that until you understand it. If you can't comprehend the concept, I can't help you, please switch to soccer.
The Wild have also been playing from behind a lot this year (big surprise) and Kaprizov ends up on the ice pushing hard to score, when you and your team mates don't, the other team often ends up with a quality scoring chance.
If you're looking at +/- to evaluate and compare players, you will be wrong most of the time.
When Brodin and Faber both have logged more minutes then that guy who will never make the HOF, and play with the same terrible goalies, and are plus 7 and plus 3 whereas KK leads the team with -11, then that means KK stinks for the Wild and those two D men are gems.
One day you may see the light, but based on your post you remain in darkness.
Eriksson Ek is a +1 with one less point and about the same ice time as KK. KK is a -11.
Who is playing better for the Wild ?
According to you it’s KK because he has one more point than Ek. 😂
@JoeBanzai said:
Here is your problem, you don't understand hockey.
+/- is meaningless!
Kaprizov is by far the best forward on the Wild. He's putting guys in all alone on the goalie several times a game, but they're not finishing. I can't remember ever seeing so many guys not being able to raise the puck or shooting it right into the goalie's chest. Kirill has been getting his shots on goal, but the goals haven't been coming as of yet, so his goal scoring is down a bit. To call him or his play "terrible" is completely ignorant, I watch all the Wild games, he's usually the best player on the ice for either team.
The defense/goaltending has been horrible, Fleury has a save percentage of.879 and Gustavsson's is .872. The team is giving up 4.2 goals per game.
This is exactly why +/- is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS, Kaprizov's team mates are not scoring when he makes a great pass, and his defense/goaltending is a sieve right now. Add that to the fact that he is first or second in TOI in the league and OF COURSE his +/- is going to be bad.
When your team gives up a lot of goals and you have the most time on the ice, your +/- is going to be bad, that doesn't mean you are a bad player. Please read and reread that until you understand it. If you can't comprehend the concept, I can't help you, please switch to soccer.
The Wild have also been playing from behind a lot this year (big surprise) and Kaprizov ends up on the ice pushing hard to score, when you and your team mates don't, the other team often ends up with a quality scoring chance.
If you're looking at +/- to evaluate and compare players, you will be wrong most of the time.
When Brodin and Faber both have logged more minutes then that guy who will never make the HOF, and play with the same terrible goalies, and are plus 7 and plus 3 whereas KK leads the team with -11, then that means KK stinks for the Wild and those two D men are gems.
One day you may see the light, but based on your post you remain in darkness.
Now you're comparing a Wing to a Defenseman. I just love it when people compare completely different positions.
OBVIOUSLY they aren't on the ice at the same time. DUH! MY God, I can't keep explaining this basic information to you.
Thanks for bringing that up! This actually proves my point. Kaprizov is on the ice with the worst defenders and the goaltending has been bad. Add the fact that Kaprizov doesn't have a true "finisher" and it's virtually impossible to be a + here.
HELLO! Please reread my last post.
A good "stay at home" D man is much more likely to maintain a + rating, or close to even, than a forward. If you don't know that, I'm sorry, I can't spend the time explaining how team sports, in this case hockey, works to you.
I'm so glad you mentioned Brodin. Possibly the finest "defensive" defenseman in the league. Watch him sometime ( silly of me to say, you don't watch the games, just the score sheet), you'll see.
Lou Nanne is on the local sports radio station once a week, he constantly says how good Brodin is, I focused more on watching Brodin play.
Jonas is unbelievable! On almost every occasion, against even the best forwards in the league, he wins the puck battle, then makes a smart pass. Sometimes he makes it look easy. Nationally, no one knows about him, because he doesn't score many goals. Too bad people think the guys who score the most are automatically the "best".
Faber is quickly showing he's also a superb player. He made the Wild's playoff roster last year as a rookie, hasn't looked back since. He's rated as one of the top rookies in the league right now.
I'm really not trying to be insulting, but you are just like a lot of people here, you want to look at one number and say "he's great, or he's terrible". Too bad, because those people are completely wrong in a lot of cases.
I'm REALLY not interested in continuing this. Either you don't understand team sports (and never will), or you are arguing a position you KNOW is wrong just to keep arguing.
I suspect the latter, but you never can be sure.
To the OP; sorry we have derailed another thread. 🥴
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
Here is your problem, you don't understand hockey.
+/- is meaningless!
Kaprizov is by far the best forward on the Wild. He's putting guys in all alone on the goalie several times a game, but they're not finishing. I can't remember ever seeing so many guys not being able to raise the puck or shooting it right into the goalie's chest. Kirill has been getting his shots on goal, but the goals haven't been coming as of yet, so his goal scoring is down a bit. To call him or his play "terrible" is completely ignorant, I watch all the Wild games, he's usually the best player on the ice for either team.
The defense/goaltending has been horrible, Fleury has a save percentage of.879 and Gustavsson's is .872. The team is giving up 4.2 goals per game.
This is exactly why +/- is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS, Kaprizov's team mates are not scoring when he makes a great pass, and his defense/goaltending is a sieve right now. Add that to the fact that he is first or second in TOI in the league and OF COURSE his +/- is going to be bad.
When your team gives up a lot of goals and you have the most time on the ice, your +/- is going to be bad, that doesn't mean you are a bad player. Please read and reread that until you understand it. If you can't comprehend the concept, I can't help you, please switch to soccer.
The Wild have also been playing from behind a lot this year (big surprise) and Kaprizov ends up on the ice pushing hard to score, when you and your team mates don't, the other team often ends up with a quality scoring chance.
If you're looking at +/- to evaluate and compare players, you will be wrong most of the time.
When Brodin and Faber both have logged more minutes then that guy who will never make the HOF, and play with the same terrible goalies, and are plus 7 and plus 3 whereas KK leads the team with -11, then that means KK stinks for the Wild and those two D men are gems.
One day you may see the light, but based on your post you remain in darkness.
Now you're comparing a Wing to a Defenseman. I just love it when people compare completely different positions.
A good "stay at home" D man is much more likely to maintain a + rating, or close to even, than a forward. If you don't know that.
No !!!
Why am I even wasting my time.
Great two way players like Federov or a Bobby Clarke will lead their teams in plus minus, as will great two way D men like Robinson and Orr.
I'm not posting to vote on how much of an impact +/- has relative to how well a player is playing at all.
However, just bringing up the point that if you guys are in a conversation discussing +/- relative to ice time, it is necessary to expand your metrics to account for what percentage of said ice time for a particular player is either power play or penalty kill. Any of that logged time must first be subtracted from the total time on ice, since +/- is not a statistic that counts during odd-man situations. Present your info and arguments/opinions however you like, but in order to do it correctly, this mathematical concept must be considered.
To add to the complexity: If you're talking about points scored by a player relative to their personal +/-, then you should also deduct any power play points.
@miwlvrn said:
I'm not posting to vote on how much of an impact +/- has relative to how well a player is playing at all.
However, just bringing up the point that if you guys are in a conversation discussing +/- relative to ice time, it is necessary to expand your metrics to account for what percentage of said ice time for a particular player is either power play or penalty kill. Any of that logged time must first be subtracted from the total time on ice, since +/- is not a statistic that counts during odd-man situations. Present your info and arguments/opinions however you like, but in order to do it correctly, this mathematical concept must be considered.
To add to the complexity: If you're talking about points scored by a player relative to their personal +/-, then you should also deduct any power play points.
Very true and thanks for sharing, but in this discussion KKs plus minus is so atrocious that that isn’t necessary. Can’t put lipstick 💄 on a 🐷
@miwlvrn said:
I'm not posting to vote on how much of an impact +/- has relative to how well a player is playing at all.
However, just bringing up the point that if you guys are in a conversation discussing +/- relative to ice time, it is necessary to expand your metrics to account for what percentage of said ice time for a particular player is either power play or penalty kill. Any of that logged time must first be subtracted from the total time on ice, since +/- is not a statistic that counts during odd-man situations. Present your info and arguments/opinions however you like, but in order to do it correctly, this mathematical concept must be considered.
To add to the complexity: If you're talking about points scored by a player relative to their personal +/-, then you should also deduct any power play points.
There's absolutely no reason to discuss+/- ever.
You're talking math. There's 5 other guys on your team when you are, if they suck, so will you.
Then you need to look at the opponents, do they try to match their best players against your line?
Brett Hull was a +23 with 57 even strength goals in 1990-91when he played with Adam Oats.
Brett Hull was a -27 with 25 even strength goals in 1992-93 after Oats left.
I guess Brett forgot how to play hockey that year. Yeah, he sucked.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@miwlvrn said:
I'm not posting to vote on how much of an impact +/- has relative to how well a player is playing at all.
However, just bringing up the point that if you guys are in a conversation discussing +/- relative to ice time, it is necessary to expand your metrics to account for what percentage of said ice time for a particular player is either power play or penalty kill. Any of that logged time must first be subtracted from the total time on ice, since +/- is not a statistic that counts during odd-man situations. Present your info and arguments/opinions however you like, but in order to do it correctly, this mathematical concept must be considered.
To add to the complexity: If you're talking about points scored by a player relative to their personal +/-, then you should also deduct any power play points.
There's absolutely no reason to discuss+/- ever.
You're talking math. There's 5 other guys on your team when you are, if they suck, so will you.
Then you need to look at the opponents, do they try to match their best players against your line?
Brett Hull was a +23 with 57 even strength goals in 1990-91when he played with Adam Oats.
Brett Hull was a -27 with 25 even strength goals in 1992-93 after Oats left.
I guess Brett forgot how to play hockey that year. Yeah, he sucked.
Brett Hull was a one dimensional player who could only thrive with great teammates.
He was not a great puck possession guy like Federov, Sakic, or Forsberg.
He could only find a place on the ice to shoot. His defense was average.
He was not even close to a Clarke or Federov. He was a Kurri.
He was a great goal scorer, but not a great all around player.
@PillarDollarCollector said:
I did not mean he sucks I meant the team sucks for now they can turn it around.
To be clear, I do NOT think McDavid sucks...........even if he's a -
Hopefully one day you’ll understand how much better of a hockey player Hossa was over Kane, and not only that, but Kane desperately needed Toews and others much more then they needed him. KK = Kane. Connor McDavid is another Patrick Kane who can put up a few more points.
Give me Bobby Clarke and Hossa over McDavid and Kane all day long.
Comments
As most of you are aware, Joe’s good pal Oscar Meyer is MIA.
All we know is he was last seen at the local library with a stack of encyclopedias trying to figure out how Charlie McAvoy turned Ullmark into Hasek. 😂😂😂
He’s going to be a while so he sent this to cheer everyone up. 😂
We all miss his dearly. 😇
The 1970’s Bruins - Canadiens rivalry the way our pal Oscar remembers it.
😂😂😂
You see Montreal had access to all the great French Canadian players before 1980 according to Penny Lane. That picture proves him right once again. 😂😂😂
These three just heard that Jean Ratelle was a rookie with Montreal.
.
There are reasons people get banned here.
Too bad they don't just move on and try to become decent human beings.
yeah, figured this Applejacks yob was going to turn out to be that "Goldenage" guy. The guy who was trapped in the 70's and 80's....the guy who I think got banned. It's the same copy and pasted uselessness from hockeyreference without any context, and the same pointless/circular arguments.
thinking that there is some GOAT goalie coach is some unintentional high comedy. Like anyone could make a distinction from a guy like Mitch Korn (coached everyone from Hasek to Rinne to Sorokin and pretty every goalie in Jersey's system since Brodeur) etc, or Benoit Allaire, Ian Clark, Jimmy Waite, even Bill Ranford among others.
Pretty much every goalie plays the same style today. Every goalie is taught to cut down angles above anything else. When the puck carrier is here, you setup here. When the puck is moved side to side in a certain zone, you setup there. When the puck is moving around the point, you setup here and so on. You drift out to the top of the crease here when the puck is here. Then it comes down to goalie size, rebound control skill, and various other things that can't be taught ie athleticism, and most importantly, the ability/effort of the defenders in front of him.
I'm not down on Hellebuyck or anything, I think he's somewhere around the top 5 in talent alone. I'm not sure I wouldn't take him over Vasilevskiy (even if he were healthy) right now. So Sorokin, Shesterkin, Oettinger would be the only "for sures"....Thatcher Demko would be the wildcard. Drop him onto Carolina and I think he's an automatic Vezina-quality goaler.
But think, Hellebuyck won that Vezina with very little in front of him. That Jets d-core was terrible. Half of those guys are either out of the league, playing in Europe, or on the 3rd pairs of other teams and Josh Morrissey wasn't what he is now, at least then. So I think it's just Morrissey and Pionk left from that season.
FWIW, Tretjak was a goalie coach for both Hasek and Brodeur (Hasek and Belfour when with Chicago; Brodeur was coached by Tretjak in his goaltending academy prior to NJ). I am in no way saying that those players became the players that they did just because they were coached by Tretjak. It probably helped though
I'm sure Hasek and Brodeur would have been successful regardless.
>
sure and all of these guys were also coached by someone else prior to getting to the NHL. Hasek was already in the NHL before Mike Keenan hired Tretjak. He was initially just a "consultant". Then guys like Dave King had already coached Belfour and so on. The Hawks have always done very well drafting and developing goalies anyway...or in recent vintage, just yanking them out of Europe as intl free agents - Raanta, Niemi etc.
I know. I'm a pretty big believer in the natural talent of goalies and their work ethic in how hard they choose to push their own talents in order to reach their potential, not disagreeing with you. Just thought it was a neat coincidental moment among their careers, that's all; not crediting it as a reason for anything in particular down the line.
Lankinen is another that they pulled as an undrafted free agent that way (even if he's not looking as good now as he did when he first got to Chicago)
yeah that wasn't knocking the Tretjak connection. I'm sure he did something to make Hasek better. Although that would be very difficult to pinpoint given Hasek's unorthodox "floppy" style that was often heavily reliant on his high end athleticism. I mean he could be on the list of best pure athletes to ever play hockey and pretty much no one would know about it. Supposedly good enough to play European club soccer and I believe once was under consideration for a Czech Olympic ski team tryout. Maybe not the Olympics but something like that...a legit competition.
but getting back to guys like Mitch Korn and Ian Clark, those are guys who are everywhere. They teach the teachers. They go to college programs, Junior wherever. Clark is the guy who doesn't even work for the Canucks but has been side-coaching Demko. He helped turn about Markstrom and refurbishing latter career Luongo so on. Just getting back to bootleg-Goldenage's post to the lunacy of thinking any one coach is responsible for any one goalie. Most of these guys now are almost like MLB hitters where they have their own side-guy or whatever you want to tab it.
Nice to see Loislane back in full voice.
Last time we heard anything sensible from him was when the Broad Street babies won the Stanley Cup. He’s been busy on the Patriots thread saying how Belichick should be fired, but it’s nice to see him back here.
Not sure what Tretiak coaching goalies has to do with McDavid winning the Stanley Cup though.
Perhaps milwvrn can fill me in on that one. 😂
Here’s another QMJHL all star and NHL all star and HOF to add to the pre-1980 Meyer list. He was the first Canadian 😂, oops Ranger, to be inducted into the HOF.
Speaking of high comedy, this guy wants you to tell him where to sign his C-form.
I’m still trying to figure out what this has to do with McDavid winning a Cup.
It supports the hypothesis that Hellebuyck has enough natural talent to have been worth pursuing by the Edmonton organization (IMO pushing for a trade for RNH) with the intent of replacing Jack Campbell during the off season in order to increase the franchise's chances at a deeper playoff run, as compared to what they had on the roster in June. They did not go that route and it is probably too late for that move now. However, the feeling is still that Edmonton needs to improve their goalie situation.
that would certainly help, but there's a reason Hellebuyck ended up resigning in The Peg when during the off-season it was leaked that he would be testing free agency after this season. The money. The Jets and Hellebuyck's agent shopped him, it was reported that he was looking for $8.5 to 9m per year on an extension....and crickets. The days of the Price, Vasilevskiy and Bob goalie $9-10 mil per year contracts are all but over. More teams will be going with the old Wings (second Osgood era) Hawks (Crawford at a bargain + recycle backups from Europe) or full on rideshare goalie tandems.
Meaning no one wants to pay any one goalie more than $6m anymore, preferably 5 mil. Then $1-2mil on the backup. For example, I think we can all agree that Vegas and Colorado are among the two best teams in the NHL over the last 3- 4 years. Vegas is only paying their tandem $5.66m total. The Avs only $4.175m total. Boston is going to have to trade Swayman either at the deadline or after the season as he'll be an RFA after the season and will double his salary. Thus, Sorokin and Hellebuyck will be the high salary outliers and largely because those teams are desperate to keep their own drafted players since no one wants to go there in FA.
Barring an extreme cap soaring, there's no way the Oil could pay Hellebuyck $8m per when following 24-25, Leon and Bouchard are up, and then McJesus again the following season. Leon's only making $8.5. That will go up $4.5-5, at minimum and Bouchard at least $3.5-4m per year more too.
Yes, careful cap spending is important with goalies. If Edmonton can't move Jack Campbell in a trade, they might end up having to put him on waivers in order to get away from his overly generous contract, though I'm not sure any other organization would want to take him on at that price.
I think Swayman is better. It’s going to be interesting watching that play out.
Doesn’t matter who leaves though, Essensa will turn the next one into another Tim Thomas.
Btw, I really enjoy reading your posts, and if you ever mind us checking each other into the boards every once in a while then just give me a two hander across my ankles.
😉
Is he playing hurt now or fully recovered ?
Just noticed he’s #126 in the NHL in scoring right now, just behind Charlie McAvoy for 125th place.
What’s the difference between this year and last year ? He usually never averaged under a point per game.
2nd worst team in the league now.
Go for the Cup, or start tanking now like the Blackhawks did for Bedard ?
Kingofthemorgandollar ???
What’s going on with Edmonton and McDavid ? I don’t follow that closely. Need help trying to figure it out.
^^^^^^^ this. I dont know thing one about hockey, but I did eagerly follow Mcdavids scoring season last year. Is it like football where the opposing team can scheme away your best player if there is no number 2 threat?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
here's the main problem.
The Oil have tried to switch their defensive system (now more of a zone) to rival that of Boston & Vegas without taking into account those teams built their roster with players who could play that system...ie guys who actually play defense, competently. But these are the Oil so the end result is a bunch of defensively apathetic guys leaving Grand Canyon sized gaps in the slot (over 70% of all goals are scored from the slot). I watched about half of their last game and Evander Kane singlehandedly gave up two goals himself by losing his check & failing to beat it back in the Oil's own end. That's just who they are.
McJesus is banged up. Goaltending is not good enough to bail them out or steal games.
Power Play conversion rates (league average is around 20.2%)
22-23 - 32.4% (1st by 6%)
23-24 - 23.9% (10th)
Penalty Kill rate
22-23 - 76.1%
23-24 - 70% (30th)
when McJesus & Draisaitl aren't scoring their way out of trouble, all of the other flaws are exposed. There's always been a depth scoring problem in the McJesus/Leon era. Since there's no depth, you can't just bench guys. There have been some vague rumors of the Oil attempting to swing a trade for Jordan Binnington, and that's not the answer either. Ken Holland appears to be getting (at least somewhat) undermined by (CEO/ex-player agent) Jeff Jackson (who allegedly/reportedly/probably made the call on the Woodcroft sacking) so it's all a mess.
“Here’s the main problem “ is incorrect, but thanks for trying.
Goaltending “is the main problem “.
The Oilers goalies have faced less shots then the Bruins goalies, yet have abysmal save percentages.
They can’t stop the puck in the slot or beyond the slot the way the Bruins goalies can. Or Vegas for that matter.
Through 14 games for both teams.
The difference between elite teams and cellar dwellers are illustrated above.
Great goaltending wins championships.
Vegas and Boston have it.
Edmonton does not.
Now, who can explain why McDavid only has a point per game, well below his average. Thanks
For those advanced hockey thinkers here just look at the Bruins vs Oilers goalies on the expected save stats.
Look at the positives for Swayman compared to the negatives for the Oilers.
This is why Essensa not only makes 5 million per, but has held his job for 20 years.
Vegas and Boston have goalies that are making remarkable saves way above what the Oilers are getting.
Minnesota doesn’t look that great either. Oilers have company.
Now, what’s wrong with Connor ?
Not Bedard, McDavid ?
Yes and no. The home team gets to put their guys on the ice last, so you can match up with the visiting teams top line.
With McDavid, up until last year, he was primarily an assist guy, so if he has linemates that are having trouble scoring goals, he's going to suffer.
My guy Kaprizov has been passing to guys all year, putting them in great scoring chances, but much of the time his team mate can't put the puck in the net. This makes it look like he's having a bad year because people only look at points.
He’s having a terrible year so far, but his goalies are also. He’s on pace for a -50. Anything over -20 is bad.
There are plus guys on the Wild, but his line reeks.
Here is your problem, you don't understand hockey.
+/- is meaningless!
Kaprizov is by far the best forward on the Wild. He's putting guys in all alone on the goalie several times a game, but they're not finishing. I can't remember ever seeing so many guys not being able to raise the puck or shooting it right into the goalie's chest. Kirill has been getting his shots on goal, but the goals haven't been coming as of yet, so his goal scoring is down a bit. To call him or his play "terrible" is completely ignorant, I watch all the Wild games, he's usually the best player on the ice for either team.
The defense/goaltending has been horrible, Fleury has a save percentage of.879 and Gustavsson's is .872. The team is giving up 4.2 goals per game.
This is exactly why +/- is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS, Kaprizov's team mates are not scoring when he makes a great pass, and his defense/goaltending is a sieve right now. Add that to the fact that he is first or second in TOI in the league and OF COURSE his +/- is going to be bad.
When your team gives up a lot of goals and you have the most time on the ice, your +/- is going to be bad, that doesn't mean you are a bad player. Please read and reread that until you understand it. If you can't comprehend the concept, I can't help you, please switch to soccer.
The Wild have also been playing from behind a lot this year (big surprise) and Kaprizov ends up on the ice pushing hard to score, when you and your team mates don't, the other team often ends up with a quality scoring chance.
If you're looking at +/- to evaluate and compare players, you will be wrong most of the time.
When Brodin and Faber both have logged more minutes then that guy who will never make the HOF, and play with the same terrible goalies, and are plus 7 and plus 3 whereas KK leads the team with -11, then that means KK stinks for the Wild and those two D men are gems.
One day you may see the light, but based on your post you remain in darkness.
Then explain how Brodin and Faber have the most ice time and have fantastic plus minus, being that I don’t understand hockey.
Perhaps you can explain it to everyone.
TOI - time on ice
ATOI - average toi per game
Eriksson Ek is a +1 with one less point and about the same ice time as KK. KK is a -11.
Who is playing better for the Wild ?
According to you it’s KK because he has one more point than Ek. 😂
Now you're comparing a Wing to a Defenseman. I just love it when people compare completely different positions.
OBVIOUSLY they aren't on the ice at the same time. DUH! MY God, I can't keep explaining this basic information to you.
Thanks for bringing that up! This actually proves my point. Kaprizov is on the ice with the worst defenders and the goaltending has been bad. Add the fact that Kaprizov doesn't have a true "finisher" and it's virtually impossible to be a + here.
HELLO! Please reread my last post.
A good "stay at home" D man is much more likely to maintain a + rating, or close to even, than a forward. If you don't know that, I'm sorry, I can't spend the time explaining how team sports, in this case hockey, works to you.
I'm so glad you mentioned Brodin. Possibly the finest "defensive" defenseman in the league. Watch him sometime ( silly of me to say, you don't watch the games, just the score sheet), you'll see.
Lou Nanne is on the local sports radio station once a week, he constantly says how good Brodin is, I focused more on watching Brodin play.
Jonas is unbelievable! On almost every occasion, against even the best forwards in the league, he wins the puck battle, then makes a smart pass. Sometimes he makes it look easy. Nationally, no one knows about him, because he doesn't score many goals. Too bad people think the guys who score the most are automatically the "best".
Faber is quickly showing he's also a superb player. He made the Wild's playoff roster last year as a rookie, hasn't looked back since. He's rated as one of the top rookies in the league right now.
I'm really not trying to be insulting, but you are just like a lot of people here, you want to look at one number and say "he's great, or he's terrible". Too bad, because those people are completely wrong in a lot of cases.
I'm REALLY not interested in continuing this. Either you don't understand team sports (and never will), or you are arguing a position you KNOW is wrong just to keep arguing.
I suspect the latter, but you never can be sure.
To the OP; sorry we have derailed another thread. 🥴
No !!!
Why am I even wasting my time.
Great two way players like Federov or a Bobby Clarke will lead their teams in plus minus, as will great two way D men like Robinson and Orr.
KK is turning into a horrible two way player.
Clarke was vastly superior in two way hockey.
So who is better on the Wild ?
Brodin or KK ?
I know the answer.
I'm not posting to vote on how much of an impact +/- has relative to how well a player is playing at all.
However, just bringing up the point that if you guys are in a conversation discussing +/- relative to ice time, it is necessary to expand your metrics to account for what percentage of said ice time for a particular player is either power play or penalty kill. Any of that logged time must first be subtracted from the total time on ice, since +/- is not a statistic that counts during odd-man situations. Present your info and arguments/opinions however you like, but in order to do it correctly, this mathematical concept must be considered.
To add to the complexity: If you're talking about points scored by a player relative to their personal +/-, then you should also deduct any power play points.
Very true and thanks for sharing, but in this discussion KKs plus minus is so atrocious that that isn’t necessary. Can’t put lipstick 💄 on a 🐷
He only has 1 even strength goal this year. 🐷💄
KK will never be a Bryan Trottier either. Great two way player
They suck!!!
Back to McDavid. I guess he sucks. He's a minus player right now.
Of course I don't see him play, why would I bother when I have +/-
Case closed.
There's absolutely no reason to discuss+/- ever.
You're talking math. There's 5 other guys on your team when you are, if they suck, so will you.
Then you need to look at the opponents, do they try to match their best players against your line?
Brett Hull was a +23 with 57 even strength goals in 1990-91when he played with Adam Oats.
Brett Hull was a -27 with 25 even strength goals in 1992-93 after Oats left.
I guess Brett forgot how to play hockey that year. Yeah, he sucked.
Brett Hull was a one dimensional player who could only thrive with great teammates.
He was not a great puck possession guy like Federov, Sakic, or Forsberg.
He could only find a place on the ice to shoot. His defense was average.
He was not even close to a Clarke or Federov. He was a Kurri.
He was a great goal scorer, but not a great all around player.
He’s heads and shoulders above KK.
🐷 💄
Not 100% correct. You get a + if your team scores shorthanded and a - if you give up a shorty.
I did not mean he sucks I meant the team sucks for now they can turn it around.
To be clear, I do NOT think McDavid sucks...........even if he's a -
Hopefully one day you’ll understand how much better of a hockey player Hossa was over Kane, and not only that, but Kane desperately needed Toews and others much more then they needed him. KK = Kane. Connor McDavid is another Patrick Kane who can put up a few more points.
Give me Bobby Clarke and Hossa over McDavid and Kane all day long.