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NHL: Connor McDavid needs to win a Cup this year or next year already in his 8th NHL season

Will follow him this season always entertaining. Edmonton is playing Philadelphia right now.

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  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    and defense for him and the Oil, still optional, apparently.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not much of a career without having at minimum 1 Cup ring. As a Canadian I truly hope he wins 1 we have not had one in 30 years that is sad.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    I only watched about 10 minutes of that Philly game, and in those 10 minutes I watched Cam Atkinson walk Evander Kane twice in the same shift, one leading to a goal. I like Atkinson, plays a typical American.style of game, great shot, above average defense, but at34 and coming off a missed year due to injury, he should not be turnstiling many wingers. As it is, Kane has done nothing, McJesus has 8 giveaways and a 4:1 giveaway/takeaway ratio along with a -4 through 4, and after Draisaitl raised a stink about another early playoff exit, he's also got a 3:1 giveaway/TK ratio. In other words, nothing has changed, and nothing will change as long as Hyman is the only guy breaking a sweat in his own end.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He won't be winning a cup, his TEAM might win one though.
    Plenty of guys have had great careers and not been on a championship TEAM.
    You guys make too big a deal out of it.
    I wish him the best of luck unless he's playing the Wild 😁

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • TabeTabe Posts: 5,924 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Eh, it took Steve Yzerman 14 seasons.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    He will have to get traded to win a cup. Hopefully the Oilers will trade him or Ray Bourque him someday.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now he is injured.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's too bad. How bad is it? Serious?

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    That's too bad. How bad is it? Serious?

    2 weeks they said hopefully not longer would suck.

  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If Edmonton had been interested in being a playoff contender, they should have traded Nug-Hop during this past offseason while his value was inflated and gone all in on a quality goaltender and some better D instead of staying so over-focused on offense.

    BTW, it's McDavid's 9th season, not 8th like it says in the thread title.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems like Canada is still a long ways before winning a cup.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    Connor is a wonderful player, but needs help like Wayne and Mario needed help. The best teams win in hockey, and great defense and goaltending is most important.
    All the dynasties had both.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2023 11:25AM

    Don't know if you guys watched the Wild/Oilers game last night, but Kaprizov should have had about 6 assists. He also banged one off the post on a wide open net.
    Ryan Hartman should be giving Kirill half of his paychecks.
    GO WILD, GO KAPRIZOV!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    @Applejacks said:
    Connor is a wonderful player, but needs help like Wayne and Mario needed help. The best teams win in hockey, and great defense and goaltending is most important.
    All the dynasties had both.

    The Penguins won back to back cups in 16 & 17 with average defense, but a lot of that is the down era of which the Blackhawks, Kings, Wings, Sharks etc were all trending downward due to the salary cap and age, and the Avs, Stars, Lightning etc hadn't come out of their rebuilds/retools yet. But yes it's usually of importance.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2023 6:40PM

    @miwlvrn said:
    If Edmonton had been interested in being a playoff contender, they should have traded Nug-Hop during this past offseason while his value was inflated and gone all in on a quality goaltender and some better D instead of staying so over-focused on offense.

    BTW, it's McDavid's 9th season, not 8th like it says in the thread title.

    the problem there is RNH is on a team friendly $5.1m deal so that production and versatility (can play the wing and is on the PP and PK too) is tough to replace at that price. The Wings are paying a 3rd liner like Andrew Copp $5.6m and Jt Compher the same salary as RNH, so unless you develop a guy like RNH in the draft, you can't replace that production at that price in free agency.

    Their depth scoring, particularly in the bottom 6 is also a large part of their issues in the McJesus/Leon era. Then you factor in that McJesus typically scores about a third of his points on the PP, and Leon 50% on the PP, so if a team can stay out of the box, you have a very good shot at keeping those two largely in check so you need that depth scoring because you don't know what you're ever going to get out of Evander Kane, since he disappears for large stretches, so that leaves only Hyman and Bouchard to add depth scoring on a regular basis if RNH were to be traded.

    The main problem, when you're paying McJesus/Leon 25% of your cap, is then paying guys like Nurse #1 d-man money ($9.5m) while being no better than a second pair defenseman, and then paying 3rd line wingers like Foegele $2.75m a year for 26 points and Cody Ceci & Kulak a combined $6m when they are 3rd pair defensemen and then mix in the bad Jack Campbell contract on top of all that. You trade Taylor Hall for Larsson, then let Larsson walk away when Larsson is a very good d-man, he's on the first pair for Seattle, and you can argue he's a definite #2 defenseman on a Cup contender and they let him walk in order to overpay Nurse. Then two years later turn right around and trade more assets to acquire Ekholm who is basically the same player as Larsson, minus the skating ability.

    It's not dead money, but it's a good deal of poorly spent money. Granted, it's tough to get free agents to go to Edmonton, but that's why there are trades and competent drafting. I believe only 7 out of their 22 man roster was originally drafted by them, and 5 of those 7 players were early first rounders. So they've been terrible in the latter rounds and haven't done anything in international free agency. Completely whiffing on guys like Yakupov and Puljujärvi also a killer as those are assets/draft picks completely missed with no return.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @Applejacks said:
    Connor is a wonderful player, but needs help like Wayne and Mario needed help. The best teams win in hockey, and great defense and goaltending is most important.
    All the dynasties had both.

    The Penguins won back to back cups in 16 & 17 with average defense, but a lot of that is the down era of which the Blackhawks, Kings, Wings, Sharks etc were all trending downward due to the salary cap and age, and the Avs, Stars, Lightning etc hadn't come out of their rebuilds/retools yet. But yes it's usually of importance.

    I believe you misread my statement, of which there were two points.

    Connor needs help to win the way Wayne and Mario did. That’s point #1.

    The dynasties #2 were referring to Edmonton, NYI, and Montreal.

    The Penguins were not a dynasty.
    However, I can see why you put the two together, but dynasties in hockey are usually referred to as the 4 straight Cup teams, or the 1950’s Canadians.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Don't know if you guys watched the Wild/Oilers game last night, but Kaprizov should have had about 6 assists. He also banged one off the post on a wide open net.
    Ryan Hartman should be giving Kirill half of his paychecks.
    GO WILD, GO KAPRIZOV!

    I saw against the Flyers that a lot of people who think he’s heading to the HOF may be ahead of themselves.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2023 1:58AM

    @PillarDollarCollector said:
    Seems like Canada is still a long ways before winning a cup.

    I will suggest to you that Canada may never win a cup again, and Gretzky may be partly to “blame”.

    There’s no way McDavid and Matthews resign due to the higher tax structure in Canada plus the fact that they can play golf on off days in Florida or Vegas instead of doing nothing in Canada on off days.

    Orr is McDavids guy and he will advise him to come to the states the same way Wayne would.

    I’m not knocking Canada at all. Great country. But these guys will go where the money, golf, and other great sports teams are. I could be wrong but when Matthews reaches 30 years old and McDavid in 2026 both will leave.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @miwlvrn said:
    If Edmonton had been interested in being a playoff contender, they should have traded Nug-Hop during this past offseason while his value was inflated and gone all in on a quality goaltender and some better D instead of staying so over-focused on offense.

    BTW, it's McDavid's 9th season, not 8th like it says in the thread title.

    You are absolutely correct, but they are very far from reaching that objective.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    @Applejacks said:

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @Applejacks said:
    Connor is a wonderful player, but needs help like Wayne and Mario needed help. The best teams win in hockey, and great defense and goaltending is most important.
    All the dynasties had both.

    The Penguins won back to back cups in 16 & 17 with average defense, but a lot of that is the down era of which the Blackhawks, Kings, Wings, Sharks etc were all trending downward due to the salary cap and age, and the Avs, Stars, Lightning etc hadn't come out of their rebuilds/retools yet. But yes it's usually of importance.

    I believe you misread my statement, of which there were two points.

    Connor needs help to win the way Wayne and Mario did. That’s point #1.

    The dynasties #2 were referring to Edmonton, NYI, and Montreal.

    The Penguins were not a dynasty.
    However, I can see why you put the two together, but dynasties in hockey are usually referred to as the 4 straight Cup teams, or the 1950’s Canadians.

    no, I read it, but -point 1 - both Connor and Leon can do A LOT more to help themselves, defensively, since they're both terrible and/or making little effort in their own end. See the Tampa cup runs on how to do that. Stamkos made the effort from also being terrible in his own end to average. Palat turned himself into diet-Hossa. Killorn and Sergachev to above average and so on. You put Skinner on a team like Vegas that fully employs a scheme like Bruce Cassidy's system and Skinner would be at worst, putting up upper mid-tier numbers similar to what Fleury would put in an average season in his prime.

    and 2 - those teams do not realistically apply to today's salary cap era teams because those teams you mentioned would not exist in the salary cap era, at least not for long enough to be considered "dynasties" by the standards that you've cited. No one is going to win 4 cups in a row again when there are 3-year entry level contracts and no more bridge deals. Bridge deals are gone. Only conceivable way for a 4 cup run today would be for a team like Arizona, who runs out a cap-floor wage sheet to graduate a bunch of high end prospects at the same time, like Cooley and at least 6 others who would all have the immediate NHL level talent of top 6 forwards, or top 4 defensemen, get them all signed early, and then fill in with a couple mid level vets.

    I also don't care about any of Montreal's pre '80 cup wins, when they were being handed two players each year that weren’t previously signed to an NHL team - and who were born in Quebec through a special draft in the days of yore as a means to simply get the chain-smokers into the Forum. Can't compare the 50s Habs or the 80's Islanders to those Penguins teams or the Hawks or Kings of the 2010's, or the Lightning of the Covid era. Not remotely comparable with a salary cap in place. Those Hawks teams from 09-16 would have had a very good chance at 6 or 7 in a row if they could have signed all the players they developed + the signings of Hossa and Brian Campbell.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @Applejacks said:

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @Applejacks said:
    Connor is a wonderful player, but needs help like Wayne and Mario needed help. The best teams win in hockey, and great defense and goaltending is most important.
    All the dynasties had both.

    The Penguins won back to back cups in 16 & 17 with average defense, but a lot of that is the down era of which the Blackhawks, Kings, Wings, Sharks etc were all trending downward due to the salary cap and age, and the Avs, Stars, Lightning etc hadn't come out of their rebuilds/retools yet. But yes it's usually of importance.

    I believe you misread my statement, of which there were two points.

    Connor needs help to win the way Wayne and Mario did. That’s point #1.

    The dynasties #2 were referring to Edmonton, NYI, and Montreal.

    The Penguins were not a dynasty.
    However, I can see why you put the two together, but dynasties in hockey are usually referred to as the 4 straight Cup teams, or the 1950’s Canadians.

    no, I read it, but -point 1 - both Connor and Leon can do A LOT more to help themselves, defensively, since they're both terrible and/or making little effort in their own end. See the Tampa cup runs on how to do that. Stamkos made the effort from also being terrible in his own end to average. Palat turned himself into diet-Hossa. Killorn and Sergachev to above average and so on. You put Skinner on a team like Vegas that fully employs a scheme like Bruce Cassidy's system and Skinner would be at worst, putting up upper mid-tier numbers similar to what Fleury would put in an average season in his prime.

    I also don't care about any of Montreal's pre '80 cup wins, when they were being handed two players each year that weren’t previously signed to an NHL team - and who were born in Quebec through a special draft in the days of yore as a means to simply get the chain-smokers into the forum.

    Agree about point 1. McDavid plays defense like Gretzky. Poorly.

    Point 2- Brush up on your C form knowledge and ask yourself if what you said is true how would the Canadiens let Gilbert Perrault and Jean Ratelle slip through the cracks.
    They both lit up Quebec juniors.

    FYI- Bobby Orr was signed to a C form at age 12 and that’s why Boston always had him. It wasn’t only Montreal who used that NHL rule.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    You mentioned dynasties won’t happen in a salary cap era.

    Didn’t the Bruins just set an all time points record last year, beating the Montreal dynasty record of the 70’s ?

    Looks like they’re going to try to beat it again this year.

    Is Vegas crumbling this year ?

    Some teams are loaded for success just like Montreal and NYI were.

    Doing it is another question.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    Let me help you on the pre-80’s Canadian dynasty that was helped by the draft.

    It never happened.
    Gilbert Perreault would have been drafted by Montreal if your pre-80 rule existed, but it didn’t.

    If it wasn’t for non-French players Dryden and Robinson that dynasty would have never happened.

    The C form rule went out the window around 1968 give or take a year.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2023 11:06AM

    @Applejacks said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Don't know if you guys watched the Wild/Oilers game last night, but Kaprizov should have had about 6 assists. He also banged one off the post on a wide open net.
    Ryan Hartman should be giving Kirill half of his paychecks.
    GO WILD, GO KAPRIZOV!

    I saw against the Flyers that a lot of people who think he’s heading to the HOF may be ahead of themselves.

    If he stays healthy, he's a HOFer for sure.
    Every player has good and bad games.

    He has 9 points in 7 games so far this year.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2023 10:48AM

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @miwlvrn said:
    If Edmonton had been interested in being a playoff contender, they should have traded Nug-Hop during this past offseason while his value was inflated and gone all in on a quality goaltender and some better D instead of staying so over-focused on offense.

    BTW, it's McDavid's 9th season, not 8th like it says in the thread title.

    the problem there is RNH is on a team friendly $5.1m deal so that production and versatility (can play the wing and is on the PP and PK too) is tough to replace at that price. The Wings are paying a 3rd liner like Andrew Copp $5.6m and Jt Compher the same salary as RNH, so unless you develop a guy like RNH in the draft, you can't replace that production at that price in free agency.

    Their depth scoring, particularly in the bottom 6 is also a large part of their issues in the McJesus/Leon era. Then you factor in that McJesus typically scores about a third of his points on the PP, and Leon 50% on the PP, so if a team can stay out of the box, you have a very good shot at keeping those two largely in check so you need that depth scoring because you don't know what you're ever going to get out of Evander Kane, since he disappears for large stretches, so that leaves only Hyman and Bouchard to add depth scoring on a regular basis if RNH were to be traded.

    The main problem, when you're paying McJesus/Leon 25% of your cap, is then paying guys like Nurse #1 d-man money ($9.5m) while being no better than a second pair defenseman, and then paying 3rd line wingers like Foegele $2.75m a year for 26 points and Cody Ceci & Kulak a combined $6m when they are 3rd pair defensemen and then mix in the bad Jack Campbell contract on top of all that. You trade Taylor Hall for Larsson, then let Larsson walk away when Larsson is a very good d-man, he's on the first pair for Seattle, and you can argue he's a definite #2 defenseman on a Cup contender and they let him walk in order to overpay Nurse. Then two years later turn right around and trade more assets to acquire Ekholm who is basically the same player as Larsson, minus the skating ability.

    It's not dead money, but it's a good deal of poorly spent money. Granted, it's tough to get free agents to go to Edmonton, but that's why there are trades and competent drafting. I believe only 7 out of their 22 man roster was originally drafted by them, and 5 of those 7 players were early first rounders. So they've been terrible in the latter rounds and haven't done anything in international free agency. Completely whiffing on guys like Yakupov and Puljujärvi also a killer as those are assets/draft picks completely missed with no return.

    Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    @Applejacks said:
    You mentioned dynasties won’t happen in a salary cap era.

    Didn’t the Bruins just set an all time points record last year, beating the Montreal dynasty record of the 70’s ?

    Looks like they’re going to try to beat it again this year.

    Is Vegas crumbling this year ?

    Some teams are loaded for success just like Montreal and NYI were.

    Doing it is another question.

    not sure what any of that has to do with a "dynasty" discussion. Maybe Vegas in 2 years if they repeat.

  • lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭

    @miwlvrn said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.

    right, but any goalie is a product of the team's system. Just look at Ullmark. Showed high end potential, but the stats were never there in Buffalo because their defense isn't any better than the Oil's. But on Boston, he's all of sudden Hasek ,when on most any other team, save for Boston and Vegas, maybe the Islanders, the Covid era Lightning, he's probably an upper mid-tier to lower top end goalie. A step below a Hellebuyck. Instead he's a Vezina candidate. Just like Rask, just like Tea Party Thomas. This is why you have teams like the Avs and Carolina, smart teams, generally, who aren't paying a goalie top end money who just want league average goaltending. We don't need you to steal a game, basically.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Edmonton sucks so far this year.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @Applejacks said:

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Don't know if you guys watched the Wild/Oilers game last night, but Kaprizov should have had about 6 assists. He also banged one off the post on a wide open net.
    Ryan Hartman should be giving Kirill half of his paychecks.
    GO WILD, GO KAPRIZOV!

    I saw against the Flyers that a lot of people who think he’s heading to the HOF may be ahead of themselves.

    If he stays healthy, he's a HOFer for sure.
    Every player has good and bad games.

    He has 9 points in 7 games so far this year.

    He has 0 goals and 0 assists in 3 of his last 4 games.

    The only game in that stretch he got points was against hapless Edmonton.

    He’s a -5 for the year,
    healthy or not, the HOF is not a given.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You obviously don't watch him play, and your referring to +- as a way of evaluating players shows your basic lack of understanding hockey.
    No going to waste time arguing with you.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2023 1:04AM

    @JoeBanzai said:
    You obviously don't watch him play, and your referring to +- as a way of evaluating players shows your basic lack of understanding hockey.
    No going to waste time arguing with you.

    Another goose egg against the Devils last night. That’s 4 out of 5 goose eggs in the last five games.

    Everyone watches him play and sees that he’s the worst on his team in plus minus this year.

    I’ll let you decide if Hartman at 8 points and a plus 2 is doing worse or better then him with his 9 points and a -5. Sorry, he’s a -6 now. 0 points and a -1 in a 4-3 loss to NJ.
    His shooting percentage is 5.4 so far this year which is an abysmal start.

    Look, he’s a decent player at age 26. The HOF is a real stretch for him.

  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.

    right, but any goalie is a product of the team's system. Just look at Ullmark. Showed high end potential, but the stats were never there in Buffalo because their defense isn't any better than the Oil's. But on Boston, he's all of sudden Hasek ,when on most any other team, save for Boston and Vegas, maybe the Islanders, the Covid era Lightning, he's probably an upper mid-tier to lower top end goalie. A step below a Hellebuyck. Instead he's a Vezina candidate. Just like Rask, just like Tea Party Thomas. This is why you have teams like the Avs and Carolina, smart teams, generally, who aren't paying a goalie top end money who just want league average goaltending. We don't need you to steal a game, basically.

    Yes, agreed on Bruins goaltending. I don't think Hellebuyck put up Vezina worthy stats in the not too distant past because of the Jets players in front of him. I think he's still better than most goalies in the Show, certainly the best one who was remotely available to acquire during the offseason, and if you put him on a team that had great offense like McD+Leon, he'd have a chance to shine even more than Linus did with the B's last year.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @miwlvrn said:

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    . Just look at Ullmark. Showed high end potential, but the stats were never there in Buffalo because their defense isn't any better than the Oil's. But on Boston, he's all of sudden Hasek ,when on most any other team, save for Boston and Vegas, maybe the Islanders, the Covid era Lightning, he's probably an upper mid-tier to lower top end goalie. A step below a Hellebuyck. Instead he's a Vezina candidate. Just like Rask, just like Tea Party Thomas. This is why you have teams like the Avs and Carolina, smart teams, generally, who aren't paying a goalie top end money who just want league average goaltending. We don't need you to steal a game, basically.

    Yes, agreed on Bruins goaltending.

    Bob Essensa became the Bruins goalie coach right before Tim Thomas arrived.

    He’s been there for 20 years now making $5 million a year and the Bruins know they’ve got the best goalie coach in the NHL and won’t let him go.

    Ever hear of any other coach lasting 20 years straight in one organization?

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    @miwlvrn said:

    Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.

    right, but any goalie is a product of the team's system. Just look at Ullmark. Showed high end potential, but the stats were never there in Buffalo because their defense isn't any better than the Oil's. But on Boston, he's all of sudden Hasek.

    Yeah, the best goalie coach in the current history of the NHL has nothing to do with it.

  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Applejacks said:

    Ever hear of any other coach lasting 20 years straight in one organization?

    I haven't researched that question, but I know from being a hometown fan that Jim Bedard was the goaltending coach in Detroit for 19 years. There might be others that have had similar tenure but not sure?

    Coaching has something to do with it, but not everything. Gotta have the skaters in front of you too. Ken Dryden's book (an absolute must-read), The Game, has a section that discusses the difference between great goalies on bad to average teams, and goalies who look great because of the team in front of them but who are actually very average.

    I'm not suggesting the B's goalies weren't good. I am suggesting still that Hellebuyck was the best goaltender among those who were made public to be available during this past particular summer, and that Edmonton would have been set up as a better playoff team for a future run if they had traded one of their support scoring forwards in exchange for pursuit of an improvement to the goalies they already had on the roster.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2023 11:00AM

    @miwlvrn said:

    @Applejacks said:

    Ever hear of any other coach lasting 20 years straight in one organization?

    Coaching has something to do with it, but not everything.

    Ullmark and Thomas were .910 save percentage guys while on Boston as Essensa worked with them.
    They turned into .935 save percentage guys a year or two later after working with him.
    Rask was always quality.

    1 Norris trophy winner on Boston in Essensa’s tenure, and not always great teams.

    His goaltender success at Boston in 20 years is stellar.

    Giving credit to Boston’s teams for their goalies success is way off.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    Ullmark’s last season in Buffalo and first season in Boston he has the same save percentage.

    Look at the difference his 2nd year with Boston after a year with Essensa.
    You’ll see the same with Thomas.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2023 11:35AM

    Same thing with Thomas and Essensa.
    Now look at Boston’s records the years Thomas had great save percentages compared to his poorer save percentages.
    See the difference?
    Same Bruins teams in front of him.
    Goaltending was the difference between a good record and a bad record for the team.
    Look at the .920 and higher compared to the sub .920.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    In the 2011 Stanley Cup finals Vancouver outshot Boston 245 to 226. Boston won the series 4-3.

    Lanemeyer wants you to believe that Boston and other good teams just want a good goalie that will keep you in games. That is so off the mark.

    If you go back and watch the entire series you’ll see that Tim Thomas was a human highlight reel, not only winning the series for Boston, but accumulating the best ever NHL final save percentage at .967

    Luongo and Schneider Save Percentage included also.



    NHL teams wish they had a Bob Essensa.
    NHL teams pay millions of dollars for quality coaching. They expect results.
    That’s why Essensa has lasted 20 years and has the results to show he’s one of the best NHL coaches ever.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    In the 2020 final that Tampa won 4-2 over Dallas you can clearly see that both goalies were the same, but Tampa had a clear shot advantage and were the better team.
    Just look at that shot advantage.

    The .911 save percentages for both goalies is not elite. It’s average.


  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not clear on how all this Essensa stuff has much to do with the thread about McDavid winning a cup?

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @miwlvrn said:
    I'm not clear on how all this Essensa stuff has much to do with the thread about McDavid winning a cup?

    I would say that the entire premise of "McDavid winning a cup" is foolish.
    In team sports, TEAMS win championships, not one individual player.
    Although the exception would be if you have the best(?) goalie coach, that's all you really need.
    Unbelievable.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2023 6:31AM

    @miwlvrn said:

    @lanemyer85 said:

    @miwlvrn said:
    If Edmonton had been interested in being a playoff contender, they should have traded Nug-Hop during this past offseason while his value was inflated and gone all in on a quality goaltender and some better D instead of staying so over-focused on offense.

    BTW, it's McDavid's 9th season, not 8th like it says in the thread title.

    the problem there is RNH is on a team friendly $5.1m deal so that production and versatility (can play the wing and is on the PP and PK too) is tough to replace at that price. The Wings are paying a 3rd liner like Andrew Copp $5.6m and Jt Compher the same salary as RNH, so unless you develop a guy like RNH in the draft, you can't replace that production at that price in free agency.

    Their depth scoring, particularly in the bottom 6 is also a large part of their issues in the McJesus/Leon era. Then you factor in that McJesus typically scores about a third of his points on the PP, and Leon 50% on the PP, so if a team can stay out of the box, you have a very good shot at keeping those two largely in check so you need that depth scoring because you don't know what you're ever going to get out of Evander Kane, since he disappears for large stretches, so that leaves only Hyman and Bouchard to add depth scoring on a regular basis if RNH were to be traded.

    The main problem, when you're paying McJesus/Leon 25% of your cap, is then paying guys like Nurse #1 d-man money ($9.5m) while being no better than a second pair defenseman, and then paying 3rd line wingers like Foegele $2.75m a year for 26 points and Cody Ceci & Kulak a combined $6m when they are 3rd pair defensemen and then mix in the bad Jack Campbell contract on top of all that. You trade Taylor Hall for Larsson, then let Larsson walk away when Larsson is a very good d-man, he's on the first pair for Seattle, and you can argue he's a definite #2 defenseman on a Cup contender and they let him walk in order to overpay Nurse. Then two years later turn right around and trade more assets to acquire Ekholm who is basically the same player as Larsson, minus the skating ability.

    It's not dead money, but it's a good deal of poorly spent money. Granted, it's tough to get free agents to go to Edmonton, but that's why there are trades and competent drafting. I believe only 7 out of their 22 man roster was originally drafted by them, and 5 of those 7 players were early first rounders. So they've been terrible in the latter rounds and haven't done anything in international free agency. Completely whiffing on guys like Yakupov and Puljujärvi also a killer as those are assets/draft picks completely missed with no return.

    Agreed on Larsson, and also that the points RNH put up last year were a good bargain for the salary cost, but it was an unexpected data spike that I do not think is repeatable. His career avg. production isn't that hard to replace for a similar salary, and that's what I'd bet he'll drop back down to. Jack Campbell is signed for 5mil/yr after a great UFA season in Toronto in the year prior to Edmonton picking him up. He proved that he isn't worth it last year, clearly. I'd have tried to work out a deal trading RNH for Connor Hellebuyck when the Jets were publicly shopping him around last summer, and then dumped Campbell for mid level support scoring F and mid level D. I know Hellebuyck isn't off to his best start this year so far, but it would be worth the gamble. I don't trust Skinner to be a #1, at least not yet.

    I’m not clear on how Hellebuyck and Jack Carson have anything to do with a thread about McDavid and Edmonton winning a cup.

  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2023 7:00AM

    @miwlvrn said:
    I'm not clear on how all this Essensa stuff has much to do with the thread about McDavid winning a cup?

    Someone takes their time to explain to you an area where you and lanemeyer didn’t understand something properly and instead of saying thanks you say this.

    Next time I’ll leave you two in your incorrect thinking.

    But to answer your question, it was pointed out that Connor will either need a good solid team like Tampa, or a great goalie to win him a Cup.
    Both would be even better.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you think you understand hockey better than lanemeyer................
    Wow, just wow.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2023 9:21AM

    @JoeBanzai said:
    If you think you understand hockey better than lanemeyer................
    Wow, just wow.

    If you think I don’t then wow on your end. Oh, that’s right, you think KK is headed to the HOF. Forgive me.

    He’s already proven he knows nothing about the C-forms and the coaching influence on goaltending.
    He said Ullmark turned into Hasek because of the Bruins team.
    He was proven totally wrong.

    What will we learn next ?

    Thanks for trolling me though.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All we need is a goalie coach and we'll be unstoppable!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭

    Yeh, yeh, yeh.....McDavid needs to win a Cup or two.

    Ok.....a goalie coach, rather a great goalie coach, can make a huge difference.

    But moving on:

    What do people think about Bobby Orr?

    Or Terry Bradshaw?

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just think what Orr could have done as a goalie with the right coach.

    Bradshaw, not so much.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • ApplejacksApplejacks Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2023 2:00AM

    @PillarDollarCollector said:
    Seems like Canada is still a long ways before winning a cup.

    When’s the last time you looked at the top 10 scoring leaders in the NHL and not one Canadian in it ?

    I know that will change as the season progresses, but that is a shocker.

    What’s not a shocker is how over rated that Goose Egg Wild player is.
    Boy is he stinking up the NHL at the moment.
    He has one decent year, gets hurt too much, and is the worst plus minus on his team this year.
    Yet we’re told he’s headed to the HOF😂😂😂
    Playing on that team ??? 😂😂😂

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