Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
Agreed. I do think they might have been somewhat harsh on some the coins that got "scratched" grades, but some of those other coins (especially the wonky lincolns) looked terrible, and imo shouldnt have straight graded to begin with. They took a bunch of borderline examples and submitted for cross at any grade, of course most of them will get details grades at the strictest service.
Thank you for posting that video. It makes me want to submit even more coins to NGC/pcgs now, and I think that’s the way the market is going to ultimately react to cacg. I’m not saying that dealer submitted cream of the crop coins in this submission, but there’s only so many gut punches (the ms63 1921 peace going to a details grade) you can take before you say never again.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
What do you call it when multiple PCGS MS70 ASEs are submitted and come back 68s and the experienced dealer can't see any reason for the 68? A 69 I would understand. But 68? A dealer should be able to find at least one flaw that garnered the 68.
@JimTyler said:
Regarding the video. He should have submitted for stickers he at least would be where he started.
Yeah, except they don't offer stickers for many of the coins in the video.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
What do you call it when multiple PCGS MS70 ASEs are submitted and come back 68s and the experienced dealer can't see any reason for the 68?
@JimTyler said:
Regarding the video. He should have submitted for stickers he at least would be where he started.
Yeah, except they don't offer stickers for many of the coins in the video.
I call it as CACG possibly having been very tight, PCGS possibly having been very loose, or each of them having been somewhere in between. I wouldn’t conclude anything beyond that from the video.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
What do you call it when multiple PCGS MS70 ASEs are submitted and come back 68s and the experienced dealer can't see any reason for the 68?
@JimTyler said:
Regarding the video. He should have submitted for stickers he at least would be where he started.
Yeah, except they don't offer stickers for many of the coins in the video.
To be fair to cac, I think it was the first silver eagle that did have an obvious milk spot on Liberty’s dress. But I agree that the submitting dealer should be going out of business in the very near future. Clearly that person has no clue what they’re doing regarding submitting coins or knowing how to grade.
Here’s a free tip for all: never crack a coffin coin.
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most interesting video seen in ages here. Would prefer have seen a mix of Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much of a copper guy. Looking forward to future audit data.
Based on the video going forward certainly one would want to specify a minimum grade on the submission form. The loss MV wise has got to be horrible. Was this a random sample? Not seeing the coins in hand…..How far are we from an AI based self grading holder? We’re many of the downgrades due to the coin going bad (damage from reaction to atmosphere) in the holder? At what point are scratches not scuffs or major enough trigger details grade?
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
How insightful.
Your sarcasm aside, you should make use of my “insightful” reminder, since you formed your harsh conclusion about CACG based upon a video, rather than an in-hand inspection of the coins. Not that I expect you will, however.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
How insightful.
Your sarcasm aside, you should make use of my “insightful” reminder, since you formed your harsh conclusion about CACG based upon a video, rather than an in-hand inspection of the coins. Not that I expect you will, however.
In-hand inspection isn't as necessary when I have decades of looking at PCGS coins and know that I can soundly rely on their grading ability and quality. That doesn't mean PCGS doesn't mess up once in a while, but to think this dealer sent in a pile of PCGS screw ups is very unrealistic and while PCGS may give a an ASE a 70 instead of a 69 once in a while, a 68 is wild mess up in my opinion, and this video had several of them... And CoinHelpU Daniel couldn't identify why they were 68s (although I agree the first one did have the milkspot). So based on this I don't think I need to see the coins in hand to make the calls I made rather than pointing out the obvious and meaningless... Will this coin cross? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Will the coin flip be heads or tails? It could be either. Hard hitting insight.
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
How insightful.
Your sarcasm aside, you should make use of my “insightful” reminder, since you formed your harsh conclusion about CACG based upon a video, rather than an in-hand inspection of the coins. Not that I expect you will, however.
In-hand inspection isn't as necessary when I have decades of looking at PCGS coins and know that I can soundly rely on their grading ability and quality. That doesn't mean PCGS doesn't mess up once in a while, but to think this dealer sent in a pile of PCGS screw ups is very unrealistic and while PCGS may give a an ASE a 70 instead of a 69 once in a while, a 68 is wild mess up in my opinion, and this video had several of them... And CoinHelpU Daniel couldn't identify why they were 68s (although I agree the first one did have the milkspot). So based on this I don't think I need to see the coins in hand to make the calls I made rather than pointing out the obvious and meaningless... Will this coin cross? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Will the coin flip be heads or tails? It could be either. Hard hitting insight.
I’m happy for you that you can comfortably reach such firm conclusions, based on a video and your decades of experience. Have fun.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.’’
Very true Mark. And likewise, if you saw the coins in hand you might feel the very same way, or you might not.
But, in the meantime, if that is the standard we both agree should be adhered to, then it would be inappropriate to comment ever on pics of coins or even videos of coins on line - period, end. Simply the strict standard of no comment unless the coin is viewed in hand. Now how much fun would that be? 😉
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
Oh, really? If the submission that the dealer got so many details results on is fully represented here, that they were not 1/3 of the actual submission with the rest getting straight grades then from a business standpoint he was a monumental loser.
verb
past tense: hammered; past participle: hammered
attack or criticize forcefully and relentlessly.
"he got hammered for an honest mistake".
And who are the current graders at cac in VA now? It looks as if Bill Shamhart left a while ago. https://www.cacgrading.com/team
@wondercoin said:
‘’Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.’’
Very true Mark. And likewise, if you saw the coins in hand you might feel the very same way, or you might not.
But, in the meantime, if that is the standard we both agree should be adhered to, then it would be inappropriate to comment ever on pics of coins or even videos of coins on line - period, end. Simply the strict standard of no comment unless the coin is viewed in hand. Now how much fun would that be? 😉
Wondercoin.
Mitch, I wouldn't even consider such a standard. However, while it's obvious that some forum members strongly disagree, I feel that it's better to avoid making declarations of fact (as opposed to opinion), based upon images. Most of us know that pictures don't always tell the whole story and that they can be highly misleading, even if well intended.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
Oh, really? If the submission that the dealer got so many details results on is fully represented here, that they were not 1/3 of the actual submission with the rest getting straight grades then from a business standpoint he was a monumental loser.
verb
past tense: hammered; past participle: hammered
attack or criticize forcefully and relentlessly.
"he got hammered for an honest mistake".
And who are the current graders at cac in VA now? It looks as if Bill Shamhart left a while ago. https://www.cacgrading.com/team
He might have been a "monumental loser" but that doesn't necessarily mean he was "hammered" on the grades. That is, unless you don't feel that "hammered" implies overly harsh/unfair treatment in this instance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@ProofCollection said:
Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
Ok here is what I took away from this video. First the guy doing the talking states he is not bashing, but he clearly is, even the video title is worded as bashing and click bait to get views. Second we have no idea who sent in those coins, but if he is actually a coin dealer he needs to find a new job; quickly. I only saw two or three of the coins that were shown that I would question the CAC grade, really the bigger question is why in the world would anyone submit coins that were already ugly and damaged pocket change to start with and/or have turned in the holder unless you hoped to game the system or to purposely bash CACG.
Whoever sent those coins in deserved the grades he got, plain and simple. And the guy doing the talking just looks foolish defending those junk coins.
Coinbuf: You might be a connoisseur of super rare and expensive coins (or not), but there is really no reason to bash (“ugly and damaged pocket change”, “junk coins”) collectible toned Lincoln cents such as the 46-D, 55-D, etc. Perhaps not your cup of tea, but, I can appreciate a collection of toned Lincolns from the 1940’s and 1950’s especially for a collector on a more limited budget.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
What strikes me about video and the results shared were the scratches that were called out as “details”.
It appears “net grading” for minor scratches is not in the CACG playbook.
How often do coins have surfaces without minor scratches? (previously bagged silver dollars anyways)
Edited to add the above:
Very seldom in my experience.
Looking through my own collection, I have several that are straight ‘net’ graded.
As for color? I’m not even going to go there. I’ll leave it at that.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Oh hell we finally agree on something @coinbuf You are a Lincoln collector too, I wouldn’t have sent that crap in, not to those guys anyway.
The guy in the video was real quick handed so you have to stop the video to see anything. The very first coin has striations so bad I would’ve put it in the throw back bin.
To send in coins that are already "in the holder" to cac makes no sense with option of the sticker and only paying for coins that pass that collectors get, but not dealers. Assuming it was a collector the question is why crack the coins out to do a raw submission? How much money did he waste?
When I added my name to the wait list on 10/29/2023 I was number 284. I received an email and submitted my application last week. I just recieved my approval and membership number today, so there is hope for you guys with high wait list numbers like me.
@UpGrayedd said:
When I added my name to the wait list on 10/29/2023 I was number 284. I received an email and submitted my application last week. I just recieved my approval and membership number today, so there is hope for you guys with high wait list numbers like me.
Thanks for the update. I believe I was 289 so I should be right behind you. I noticed on the website that I moved up 14 spaces today but I'm still at 175. From this I would have to assume that many of the applications they're sending out aren't getting completed or approved. But I'm guessing it's lack of application completion.
The scratched coins are interesting since CAC didn’t seem to have a problem with toned over scratches that I thought were egregious. Most in the video are subtle.
As for the video, it looks like the coins submitted were rather marginal and most were not worth submitting the first time much less a second. I wouldn’t draw any conclusions from the video.
I put my name on the waiting list about 6 months ago and got approved for membership last month. I sent my 2021 Morgan - Peace dollar 6-coin set into CACG on 1/25/24. It was a lot easier than I thought. Can't wait to get the graded coins back.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
@johnny010 said:
Just sent in my first submission of 17 coins. Will update how I did in a few weeks.
Did you send only crossovers, raw, or a mix?
I sent for sticker / verification service only. The online digital form does not say sticker service (verification only) so I phoned a friend to make sure these rattlers don’t end up cracked out (14 rattlers, 3 newer holders). The address I mailed to is NJ and that’s their stickering service.
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
@johnny010 said:
Just sent in my first submission of 17 coins. Will update how I did in a few weeks.
Did you send only crossovers, raw, or a mix?
I sent for sticker / verification service only. The online digital form does not say sticker service (verification only) so I phoned a friend to make sure these rattlers don’t end up cracked out (14 rattlers, 3 newer holders). The address I mailed to is NJ and that’s their stickering service.
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
Will see how these rattlers fair.
Gotcha, I have been hearing that the stickering rate seems tighter, but without seeing the coins it is difficult to know. I have a group to send for stickers in the next week or so, I guess that will tell me if I think it has tightened up or not.
@johnny010 said:
Just sent in my first submission of 17 coins. Will update how I did in a few weeks.
Did you send only crossovers, raw, or a mix?
I sent for sticker / verification service only. The online digital form does not say sticker service (verification only) so I phoned a friend to make sure these rattlers don’t end up cracked out (14 rattlers, 3 newer holders). The address I mailed to is NJ and that’s their stickering service.
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
Will see how these rattlers fair.
Gotcha, I have been hearing that the stickering rate seems tighter, but without seeing the coins it is difficult to know. I have a group to send for stickers in the next week or so, I guess that will tell me if I think it has tightened up or not.
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
@lermish said:
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
Sorry lermish, that's just reinforcement training of yourself by CAC. When you are sorting through stuff to send in, you've been trained to know what not to bother with sending.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@lermish said:
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
Sorry lermish, that's just reinforcement training of yourself by CAC. When you are sorting through stuff to send in, you've been trained to know what not to bother with sending.
So those who who have been seeing much lower, rather than higher stickering rates recently, have been getting poor training by CAC or others?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@lermish said:
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
Sorry lermish, that's just reinforcement training of yourself by CAC. When you are sorting through stuff to send in, you've been trained to know what not to bother with sending.
So those who who have been seeing much lower, rather than higher stickering rates recently, have been getting poor training by CAC or others?😉
I acknowledge that my eye has probably improved/changed during that time frame. But any skill or lack thereof of mine doesn't impact others' abilities. Just wanted to provide a contra data point against others' results.
Gotcha, I have been hearing that the stickering rate seems tighter, but without seeing the coins it is difficult to know. I have a group to send for stickers in the next week or so, I guess that will tell me if I think it has tightened up or not.
I think rumors like that are just rumors. CAC and CACG, via JA himself, emphasizes their goal is consistency over time. No one out there will be more consistent even if it appears to some that they have tightened up..........
Gotcha, I have been hearing that the stickering rate seems tighter, but without seeing the coins it is difficult to know. I have a group to send for stickers in the next week or so, I guess that will tell me if I think it has tightened up or not.
I think rumors like that are just rumors. CAC and CACG, via JA himself, emphasizes their goal is consistency over time. No one out there will be more consistent even if it appears to some that they have tightened up..........
Perhaps, but sometimes rumors begin from a truth as well. I have not submitted any coins for stickering in close to year myself, and I generally do not just send anything and everything so I think the results of what I'm planning to send in will help me to see if what I have been hearing is just rumor or is there some truth.
@wondercoin said:
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
How insightful.
Your sarcasm aside, you should make use of my “insightful” reminder, since you formed your harsh conclusion about CACG based upon a video, rather than an in-hand inspection of the coins. Not that I expect you will, however.
Just conjecture but perhaps CACG is trying to err on the side of strictness out of the gate to show the collecting world that they are really different
@lermish said:
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
Sorry lermish, that's just reinforcement training of yourself by CAC. When you are sorting through stuff to send in, you've been trained to know what not to bother with sending.
So those who who have been seeing much lower, rather than higher stickering rates recently, have been getting poor training by CAC or others?😉
Most likely the number of CAC candidates is shrinking and some of the attractive candidate coins, not already in the CAC pool, have been previously submitted to CAC. This would result in lower stickering rates.
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
I’m intrigued by this point. Are you saying a person is able to make a living by buying already slabbed non cac stickered coins, and submit them to cac to get the sticker, and survive off the new increased value? I suppose I understand if he is getting a large percentage of gold cac stickers on his submissions, but is there that much available material that hasn’t been to cac before, as well as that much of a percentage increase in value after it gets a green sticker?
(If he is starting off with raw coins and submitting to a tpg then cac afterwards, I consider that a regular method of making money with coins)
@johnny010 said:
Just sent in my first submission of 17 coins. Will update how I did in a few weeks.
Did you send only crossovers, raw, or a mix?
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
Will see how these rattlers fair.
1) If he's shooting sub 10% he's not being selective enough. He knows this, you know this, we all know this.
2) Can't speak on CACG personally so I won't comment on this.
3) Nobody makes a living just off CAC stickers. Maybe they could for a few short years, but that time has come and gone. That model had a heavy reliance on gold stickers for lower-end material, and CAC has always been tougher on $1k+ coins, so those have always required either a world class eye or tons of luck to support a high sticker %. Point being, if you have a world-class eye, you can make more money playing the crack out game rather than the bean game. Nobody plays just the bean game, and if you're buying a P65CAC and putting it into a 67 holder, it is very unlikely to deserve a CAC sticker.
I'm still hitting stickers on roughly 75% of the material I submit. That's down about 5% from a year and change ago, but with a smaller sample size so it's not a statistically significant difference.
Good luck with your rattlers. Just don't be that guy that submits 15 rattlers, 10 of which have PVC, then complain that CAC is tight.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
I’m intrigued by this point. Are you saying a person is able to make a living by buying already slabbed non cac stickered coins, and submit them to cac to get the sticker, and survive off the new increased value? I suppose I understand if he is getting a large percentage of gold cac stickers on his submissions, but is there that much available material that hasn’t been to cac before, as well as that much of a percentage increase in value after it gets a green sticker?
(If he is starting off with raw coins and submitting to a tpg then cac afterwards, I consider that a regular method of making money with coins)
"a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now"
Seems logical that a friend who is an auction house employee would have the ability to look over a large number of non sticker TPG coins in hand and bid on those that are good sticker candidates to supplement his income.
@johnny010 said:
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
Will see how these rattlers fair.
Less than 10% is abysmal. I got 35% on my first ever submission and 1 of them was a gold sticker. My buddy who has been a member for 8 years consistently gets 40-50% success rate. Coins speak for themselves and don't lie. You need to know how to grade and understand what qualities CAC is looking for in a coin. If you are just randomly sending boxes, then you are wasting time/money and should expect poor results.
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Well it seems like there's a little movement each week. I'm under 200 now, so I've advanced almost 100 spots. Very happy to see that.
This video about CACG was interesting and is one reason why I question how much volume CACG is going to get going forward. I think they might be too strict for what the market wants. Some collectors got hammered on this submission.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8D_qDU_-U0
I don’t think it’s possible or fair to conclude from that video that the submitter got “hammered”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed. I do think they might have been somewhat harsh on some the coins that got "scratched" grades, but some of those other coins (especially the wonky lincolns) looked terrible, and imo shouldnt have straight graded to begin with. They took a bunch of borderline examples and submitted for cross at any grade, of course most of them will get details grades at the strictest service.
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Regarding the video. He should have submitted for stickers he at least would be where he started.
Thank you for posting that video. It makes me want to submit even more coins to NGC/pcgs now, and I think that’s the way the market is going to ultimately react to cacg. I’m not saying that dealer submitted cream of the crop coins in this submission, but there’s only so many gut punches (the ms63 1921 peace going to a details grade) you can take before you say never again.
What do you call it when multiple PCGS MS70 ASEs are submitted and come back 68s and the experienced dealer can't see any reason for the 68? A 69 I would understand. But 68? A dealer should be able to find at least one flaw that garnered the 68.
Yeah, except they don't offer stickers for many of the coins in the video.
I call it as CACG possibly having been very tight, PCGS possibly having been very loose, or each of them having been somewhere in between. I wouldn’t conclude anything beyond that from the video.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To be fair to cac, I think it was the first silver eagle that did have an obvious milk spot on Liberty’s dress. But I agree that the submitting dealer should be going out of business in the very near future. Clearly that person has no clue what they’re doing regarding submitting coins or knowing how to grade.
Here’s a free tip for all: never crack a coffin coin.
There were a couple Lincoln toners in there that were perfectly fine, problem-free, coins best I could tell. I also didn’t understand the CAC grading on some of the Silver Eagles and other coins.
Wondercoin
Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most interesting video seen in ages here. Would prefer have seen a mix of Walkers, Dollars, Commems. Not much of a copper guy. Looking forward to future audit data.
Based on the video going forward certainly one would want to specify a minimum grade on the submission form. The loss MV wise has got to be horrible. Was this a random sample? Not seeing the coins in hand…..How far are we from an AI based self grading holder? We’re many of the downgrades due to the coin going bad (damage from reaction to atmosphere) in the holder? At what point are scratches not scuffs or major enough trigger details grade?
How insightful.
Your sarcasm aside, you should make use of my “insightful” reminder, since you formed your harsh conclusion about CACG based upon a video, rather than an in-hand inspection of the coins. Not that I expect you will, however.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In-hand inspection isn't as necessary when I have decades of looking at PCGS coins and know that I can soundly rely on their grading ability and quality. That doesn't mean PCGS doesn't mess up once in a while, but to think this dealer sent in a pile of PCGS screw ups is very unrealistic and while PCGS may give a an ASE a 70 instead of a 69 once in a while, a 68 is wild mess up in my opinion, and this video had several of them... And CoinHelpU Daniel couldn't identify why they were 68s (although I agree the first one did have the milkspot). So based on this I don't think I need to see the coins in hand to make the calls I made rather than pointing out the obvious and meaningless... Will this coin cross? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Will the coin flip be heads or tails? It could be either. Hard hitting insight.
I’m happy for you that you can comfortably reach such firm conclusions, based on a video and your decades of experience. Have fun.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't remember even getting a number. It was a couple years ago seems like. I show to be $ 87 as of today.
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
I have moved up about 100 spots in 6-8 weeks. Under 200 now. Hopefully by spring time
The CAC grading in the video looks very accurate to me. I'm surprised any of that straight graded in the first place.
‘’Mitch, if you were to see the coins in-hand, you might very well feel the same way. And then, again, you might not.’’
Very true Mark. And likewise, if you saw the coins in hand you might feel the very same way, or you might not.
But, in the meantime, if that is the standard we both agree should be adhered to, then it would be inappropriate to comment ever on pics of coins or even videos of coins on line - period, end. Simply the strict standard of no comment unless the coin is viewed in hand. Now how much fun would that be? 😉
Wondercoin.
Oh, really? If the submission that the dealer got so many details results on is fully represented here, that they were not 1/3 of the actual submission with the rest getting straight grades then from a business standpoint he was a monumental loser.
verb
past tense: hammered; past participle: hammered
attack or criticize forcefully and relentlessly.
"he got hammered for an honest mistake".
And who are the current graders at cac in VA now? It looks as if Bill Shamhart left a while ago. https://www.cacgrading.com/team
Mitch, I wouldn't even consider such a standard. However, while it's obvious that some forum members strongly disagree, I feel that it's better to avoid making declarations of fact (as opposed to opinion), based upon images. Most of us know that pictures don't always tell the whole story and that they can be highly misleading, even if well intended.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
He might have been a "monumental loser" but that doesn't necessarily mean he was "hammered" on the grades. That is, unless you don't feel that "hammered" implies overly harsh/unfair treatment in this instance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ok here is what I took away from this video. First the guy doing the talking states he is not bashing, but he clearly is, even the video title is worded as bashing and click bait to get views. Second we have no idea who sent in those coins, but if he is actually a coin dealer he needs to find a new job; quickly. I only saw two or three of the coins that were shown that I would question the CAC grade, really the bigger question is why in the world would anyone submit coins that were already ugly and damaged pocket change to start with and/or have turned in the holder unless you hoped to game the system or to purposely bash CACG.
Whoever sent those coins in deserved the grades he got, plain and simple. And the guy doing the talking just looks foolish defending those junk coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Coinbuf: You might be a connoisseur of super rare and expensive coins (or not), but there is really no reason to bash (“ugly and damaged pocket change”, “junk coins”) collectible toned Lincoln cents such as the 46-D, 55-D, etc. Perhaps not your cup of tea, but, I can appreciate a collection of toned Lincolns from the 1940’s and 1950’s especially for a collector on a more limited budget.
Wondercoin.
What strikes me about video and the results shared were the scratches that were called out as “details”.
It appears “net grading” for minor scratches is not in the CACG playbook.
How often do coins have surfaces without minor scratches? (previously bagged silver dollars anyways)
Edited to add the above:
Very seldom in my experience.
Looking through my own collection, I have several that are straight ‘net’ graded.
As for color? I’m not even going to go there. I’ll leave it at that.
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Oh hell we finally agree on something @coinbuf
You are a Lincoln collector too, I wouldn’t have sent that crap in, not to those guys anyway.
The guy in the video was real quick handed so you have to stop the video to see anything. The very first coin has striations so bad I would’ve put it in the throw back bin.
I'll edit to add: I've sent in worse.
To send in coins that are already "in the holder" to cac makes no sense with option of the sticker and only paying for coins that pass that collectors get, but not dealers. Assuming it was a collector the question is why crack the coins out to do a raw submission? How much money did he waste?
Received my CAC membership number by email yesterday!
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
Just checked my status on the waiting list, in 2 months time, I have moved 99 spots closer to the front of the line.
As of today: # 183.
Wall of HONOR transaction list:WonderCoin, CoinFlip, Masscrew, Travintiques, lordmarcovan, Jinx86, Gerard, ElKevvo
When I added my name to the wait list on 10/29/2023 I was number 284. I received an email and submitted my application last week. I just recieved my approval and membership number today, so there is hope for you guys with high wait list numbers like me.
Philippians 4:4-7
Thanks for the update. I believe I was 289 so I should be right behind you. I noticed on the website that I moved up 14 spaces today but I'm still at 175. From this I would have to assume that many of the applications they're sending out aren't getting completed or approved. But I'm guessing it's lack of application completion.
The scratched coins are interesting since CAC didn’t seem to have a problem with toned over scratches that I thought were egregious. Most in the video are subtle.
As for the video, it looks like the coins submitted were rather marginal and most were not worth submitting the first time much less a second. I wouldn’t draw any conclusions from the video.
Just sent in my first submission of 17 coins. Will update how I did in a few weeks.
Did you send only crossovers, raw, or a mix?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I put my name on the waiting list about 6 months ago and got approved for membership last month. I sent my 2021 Morgan - Peace dollar 6-coin set into CACG on 1/25/24. It was a lot easier than I thought. Can't wait to get the graded coins back.
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I sent for sticker / verification service only. The online digital form does not say sticker service (verification only) so I phoned a friend to make sure these rattlers don’t end up cracked out (14 rattlers, 3 newer holders). The address I mailed to is NJ and that’s their stickering service.
I do have a dealer friend that is telling me:
1) he’s getting less than 10% to sticker now and he’s to the point he’s going to stop sending “boxes” for review
2) he also knows a dealer that sent 100 coins and only four straight crossed ( he did give me the respectable dealer name but I will not mention it publicly since 3rd hand is hearsay)
3) he mentioned a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now vs “a much higher % than before since that’s how he makes a living”…. Won’t go any deeper on what that might mean.
Will see how these rattlers fair.
Gotcha, I have been hearing that the stickering rate seems tighter, but without seeing the coins it is difficult to know. I have a group to send for stickers in the next week or so, I guess that will tell me if I think it has tightened up or not.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It's purely anecdotal but my stickering success has increased from 2022 to 2023/24. Was below 30% and is now well north of 50%.
Sorry lermish, that's just reinforcement training of yourself by CAC. When you are sorting through stuff to send in, you've been trained to know what not to bother with sending.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
So those who who have been seeing much lower, rather than higher stickering rates recently, have been getting poor training by CAC or others?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I acknowledge that my eye has probably improved/changed during that time frame. But any skill or lack thereof of mine doesn't impact others' abilities. Just wanted to provide a contra data point against others' results.
I think rumors like that are just rumors. CAC and CACG, via JA himself, emphasizes their goal is consistency over time. No one out there will be more consistent even if it appears to some that they have tightened up..........
Perhaps, but sometimes rumors begin from a truth as well. I have not submitted any coins for stickering in close to year myself, and I generally do not just send anything and everything so I think the results of what I'm planning to send in will help me to see if what I have been hearing is just rumor or is there some truth.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Just conjecture but perhaps CACG is trying to err on the side of strictness out of the gate to show the collecting world that they are really different
Most likely the number of CAC candidates is shrinking and some of the attractive candidate coins, not already in the CAC pool, have been previously submitted to CAC. This would result in lower stickering rates.
I've never sent a single coin in for grading, so thankfully none of this is my first world problem.
I’m intrigued by this point. Are you saying a person is able to make a living by buying already slabbed non cac stickered coins, and submit them to cac to get the sticker, and survive off the new increased value? I suppose I understand if he is getting a large percentage of gold cac stickers on his submissions, but is there that much available material that hasn’t been to cac before, as well as that much of a percentage increase in value after it gets a green sticker?
(If he is starting off with raw coins and submitting to a tpg then cac afterwards, I consider that a regular method of making money with coins)
1) If he's shooting sub 10% he's not being selective enough. He knows this, you know this, we all know this.
2) Can't speak on CACG personally so I won't comment on this.
3) Nobody makes a living just off CAC stickers. Maybe they could for a few short years, but that time has come and gone. That model had a heavy reliance on gold stickers for lower-end material, and CAC has always been tougher on $1k+ coins, so those have always required either a world class eye or tons of luck to support a high sticker %. Point being, if you have a world-class eye, you can make more money playing the crack out game rather than the bean game. Nobody plays just the bean game, and if you're buying a P65CAC and putting it into a 67 holder, it is very unlikely to deserve a CAC sticker.
I'm still hitting stickers on roughly 75% of the material I submit. That's down about 5% from a year and change ago, but with a smaller sample size so it's not a statistically significant difference.
Good luck with your rattlers. Just don't be that guy that submits 15 rattlers, 10 of which have PVC, then complain that CAC is tight.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
"a friend of his from (won’t say auction house name) is only getting 25% to sticker now"
Seems logical that a friend who is an auction house employee would have the ability to look over a large number of non sticker TPG coins in hand and bid on those that are good sticker candidates to supplement his income.
Less than 10% is abysmal. I got 35% on my first ever submission and 1 of them was a gold sticker. My buddy who has been a member for 8 years consistently gets 40-50% success rate. Coins speak for themselves and don't lie. You need to know how to grade and understand what qualities CAC is looking for in a coin. If you are just randomly sending boxes, then you are wasting time/money and should expect poor results.