What does the term "original" mean when applied to coins?

jmlanzaf

The question has been raised about the meaning of the term "original" when applied to coins.

Do you understand the term to mean?

TwoSides2aCoin

As struck. Time may have had its way with them, but they could be environmentally damaged and original as sin.

MFeld

When I clicked on “vote”, “poll option not found” popped up.

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@MFeld said:
When I clicked on “vote”, “poll option not found” popped up.

I don't know. 5 people have voted.

johnny9434

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

the first one, hands down

MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
When I clicked on “vote”, “poll option not found” popped up.

I don't know. 5 people have voted.

I see that, but have tried 5 or 6 times and even logged out and back in again. Clearly, someone doesn’t want me to vote!😉 Please put me down for the first option.

PeakRarities

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Oh boy, this will be a fun thread.

Even though I voted for option 1 and I feel that most would agree with that definition, It seems like "Original" is somewhat of a spectrum, and not so black and white. We can never really be 100% certain, though I have quite a few coins that I'm 99% certain that they are virgin unmolested. Some others are "mostly" original, graded by PCGS and bearing a CAC sticker. Most of the numismatic community might consider them "original", but I believe they have gotten a bath at least once so in my mind I know they are not truly original.

Maywood

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@MFeld said: I see that, but have tried 5 or 6 times and even logged out and back in again. Clearly, someone doesn’t want me to vote

Mark, that is the forum software protecting you from being committed to an answer.

Given your past history/experience and involvement here at the forum your opinion and position, and hence your vote, is pretty well understood. And I mean that in a positive and complimentary way.

Maywood

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

As to my vote, I should add that I am in the @pmh1nic camp in that generally speaking a coin's history and "true original-itiness" can't really be known. It can be deciphered to varying degrees but can't be known.

PerryHall

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Original means a coin hasn't been messed with. You can expand the definition of original, but I don't think it's really necessary.

LanLord

My thought is that the person applying such a term thinks he or she knows more than they actually do.

No one can really tell what has been done to the coin before they knew it existed. They can make educated guesses based upon how a coin looks, even destructive tests to check for damage, but no one that hasn't accompanied a piece of material for it's entire existence (in current form - coin), could know if something is truly original or not.

They should call it, majority opinion for proper optical response, but original rolls off the tongue easier!

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@LanLord said:
My thought is that the person applying such a term thinks he or she knows more than they actually do.

No one can really tell what has been done to the coin before they knew it existed. They can make educated guesses based upon how a coin looks, even destructive tests to check for damage, but no one that hasn't accompanied a piece of material for it's entire existence (in current form - coin), could know if something is truly original or not.

They should call it, majority opinion for proper optical response, but original rolls off the tongue easier!

Like anything else, there is a "market acceptable" side to it. An early 19th century coin that was dipped in 1850 and has since toned so there is no noticeable remnant of the dipping will be referred to as "original surfaces".

OKbustchaser

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Original equals Never messed with.
Original NOW means might (even probably) messed with, but looks unmessed with.

Mr_Spud

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

I like my coins to have at least a little bit of original still left on them 😉

MetroD

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Option #1.

FWIW, this also happens to closely 'match' the PCGS definition:

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/o

MFeld

@Maywood said:
@MFeld said: I see that, but have tried 5 or 6 times and even logged out and back in again. Clearly, someone doesn’t want me to vote

Mark, that is the forum software protecting you from being committed to an answer.

Given your past history/experience and involvement here at the forum your opinion and position, and hence your vote, is pretty well understood. And I mean that in a positive and complimentary way.

Thank you, @Maywood.
And sometimes, being protected from being committed to an answer can be a good thing.

PerryHall

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@MetroD said:
Option #1.

FWIW, this also happens to closely 'match' the PCGS definition:

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/o

Based on this definition, there are no original Lafayette commemorative silver dollars since all bear the year 1900 yet they were all struck in 1899.

relicsncoins

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

I know how our good friend Ricko would've voted. Rest in Peace my friend.

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@pmh1nic

MFeld

@PerryHall said:

@MetroD said:
Option #1.

FWIW, this also happens to closely 'match' the PCGS definition:

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/o

Based on this definition, there are no original Lafayette commemorative silver dollars since all bear the year 1900 yet they were all struck in 1899.

That’s incorrect. The definition offers two ways in which a coin can qualify as “original. While Lafayette dollars don’t meet the second one (which I have highlighted in bold font below) they can still qualify, under the part that precedes that language.

“original
A term used to describe a coin that never has been dipped or cleaned, or a coin struck from original dies in the year whose date it bears.”

NeophyteNumismatist

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

wow - unanimous in a group of coin collectors is almost unheard of. I feel like I am a part of history

coastaljerseyguy

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

If someone has received a Morgan from an unopened US Treasury mint bag in 1964 and has been the only owner of that coin ever since, and never dipped, etc, the coin, wouldn't it truly be original without a doubt? Now agree others may not know that history and have to take the word of the owner, but at least they do know the history.

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
wow - unanimous in a group of coin collectors is almost unheard of. I feel like I am a part of history

There will be one person along later to vote the other war.

MrEureka

Walkerfan

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Whether white or toned the coin has never been dipped or cleaned.

That is my interpretation of original.

MFeld

@Walkerfan said:
Whether white or toned the coin has never been dipped or cleaned.

That is my interpretation of original.

Don’t forget about not having had substances added to the surfaces?😉

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@MrEureka said:

Does "original" mean "authentic" in that case?

Walkerfan

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@MFeld said:

@Walkerfan said:
Whether white or toned the coin has never been dipped or cleaned.

That is my interpretation of original.

Don’t forget about not having had substances added to the surfaces?😉

Thank you-that is a good point to add!

MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:

@MrEureka said:

Does "original" mean "authentic" in that case?

Andy, I’m sure you know that in that case “Original” represented a distinction from “Restrike”.

mr1931S

@jmlanzaf said:

@MFeld said:
When I clicked on “vote”, “poll option not found” popped up.

I don't know. 5 people have voted.

I got the same message as Mr Feld. This is the right answer: Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

coinkat

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

I voted... let me post a picture of coin

OAKSTAR

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

And the winner is?

P0CKETCHANGE

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@OAKSTAR said:
And the winner is?

Don’t draw any conclusions until the mail-in ballots are counted.

coinkat

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

one more just for fun

Walkerlover

I also got the same message. But to me it means coming out of an original roll that is verifiable. That way I know it was never messed with. That’s the ultimate proof of originality. I bought a coin from the Omaha Bank Hoard that appears to have come out of the middle of its original roll that I believe is 100% original.

PeakRarities

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@Walkerlover said:

I also got the same message. But to me it means coming out of an original roll that is verifiable. That way I know it was never messed with. That’s the ultimate proof of originality. I bought a coin from the Omaha Bank Hoard that appears to have come out of the middle of its original roll that I believe is 100% original.

What about all the coins that don’t come in rolls?

coinbuf

Something else.

Why not both A and B. A coin that has "Surfaces completely lacking toning or any other change from the moment they were struck" can be the same thing as "Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin". A coin that pops out of the press and makes it down the chute into the tote unscathed has untoned surfaces with no changes since struck, and has not been dipped, cleaned, or otherwise altered.

Walkerlover

@DeplorableDan said:

@Walkerlover said:

I also got the same message. But to me it means coming out of an original roll that is verifiable. That way I know it was never messed with. That’s the ultimate proof of originality. I bought a coin from the Omaha Bank Hoard that appears to have come out of the middle of its original roll that I believe is 100% original.

What about all the coins that don’t come in rolls?

That then boils down more to interpretation and opinion. My coin is about as close to being a verified original coin as you can get without actually seeing the roll broken in front of you and the coin being plucked out. 100% original color and amazing luster from being in the middle of a roll. The problem with the OBH is most were overgraded and not as pristine as my MS 67 CAC coin.

Namvet69

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Original should mean unadulterated although natural oxidation and handling are the wildcards IMO

MetroD

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@Walkerlover said:
I also got the same message. But to me it means coming out of an original roll that is verifiable. That way I know it was never messed with. That’s the ultimate proof of originality. I bought a coin from the Omaha Bank Hoard that appears to have come out of the middle of its original roll that I believe is 100% original.

Once again, the 'PCGS Lingo' reference comes to the rescue. (At least for me.)

They propose an alternate term for this situation.

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/o

Edited for content.

Coinscratch

Something else.

Is this coin more original before or after the coming dip? If I dip it then it's no longer original but if I dip it it will bring back it's original look.

breakdown

Something else.

Generally a misnomer. I prefer natural surfaces for the look most describe as original.

jmlanzaf

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@coinbuf said:
Why not both A and B. A coin that has "Surfaces completely lacking toning or any other change from the moment they were struck" can be the same thing as "Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin". A coin that pops out of the press and makes it down the chute into the tote unscathed has untoned surfaces with no changes since struck, and has not been dipped, cleaned, or otherwise altered.

The member who "requested" this poll believes that toning disqualifies you from original.

BryceM

Something else.

The ultimate in originality of course is the way the coin looked at the time it was struck. Blast-white, no significant oxide layer, and without any handling marks, rub, wear, or bag marks. Or, in the case of copper, brilliant fresh copper surfaces - red - although it usually looks more orange to me.

As it is commonly understood in the hobby, “original” has come to mean that a coin looks like other coins in its cohort that have escaped various forms of manipulation.

As has been said, for a given coin, it’s almost impossible to know 100% for sure, but there are enough extant coins of each series from each era that it’s possible to know, with a high degree of confidence, what they are expected to look like.

So, without knowing for sure, “plausible originality” works for me.

TwoSides2aCoin

So naturally toned is not original, according to the member who requested the poll ?
It wasn’t TDN who requested that poll, was it ? I guess by that definition, he’s been duped into buying million dollar unoriginal specimens.

MFeld

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
So naturally toned is not original, according to the member who requested the poll ?
It wasn’t TDN who requested that poll, was it ? I guess by that definition, he’s been duped into buying million dollar unoriginal specimens.

In answer to your two questions:
Yes
No
And in response to your guess:
Wrong.

😉

Joe_360

Something else.

"Like a virgin" Touched for the very first time...

shish

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

"As it is commonly understood in the hobby, “original” has come to mean that a coin looks like other coins in its cohort that have escaped various forms of manipulation."

In addition,

It's commonly understood in numismatics and many other collectable areas that original refers to items that retain their natural surfaces having escaped various forms of manipulation. Objects with natural patina and or wear patterns are highly desirable in many antiques. For example Art, furniture, vehicles, etc.

Obviously after decades of exposure to our atmosphere and the wide array of airborne substances and or close contact with a wide of organic and non-organic substances highly reactive medals like copper and silver will not look the same as when they were minted.

Early coins were not stored in a vacuum or in a way that prevented exposure to our atmosphere. Why some numismatists refuse to accept these facts escapes me.

Of course there are a few exceptions, I remember reading about some half dimes or dimes that were encapsulate in glass shortly after being minted. No doubt a very rare exception.

Conshyboy

Surfaces completely lacking toning or any other change from the moment they were struck.

Maybe we should ask slick I think he said he had an original

asheland

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

Here are two from my collection, that I believe to be completely original:

WinLoseWin

Surfaces that have not been cleaned, dipped or otherwise altered during the lifetime of the coin.

@jmlanzaf said:

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
wow - unanimous in a group of coin collectors is almost unheard of. I feel like I am a part of history

There will be one person along later to vote the other war.

Freudian slip?