A New Side Collection - Civil War Store Card Tokens (any advice)

NeophyteNumismatist

I am dedicated to my Half Cent Collection, but was looking for something to do on the side because the coins left in my set are all expensive and hard to find. My goal was to find a side collection that is historical, interesting, but would not become so expensive that it competes in budget with the Half Cents. After a lot of consideration, I landed on Civil War Store Tokens.

So far I have...
1. Ordered the Fuld Book on Store Cards
2. Joined the Civil War Token Society
3. Ordered every book that the CWTS offered as a promo to members
4. Started reading CWTS publications on the NNP
5. Found two dealers who specialize in Tokens - Steve Hayden and Cole Hendrikson

Here is what I need to do:

1. Build a target list of preliminary tokens that I like
2. Build-out pricing budget by coin
3. Start buying tokens.
4. Join the Token and Medal Society (TAMS)

Here are my problems/questions:
1. Where do I find reliable pricing data for tokens?
2. Where are the other specialty dealers to locate material?
3. Are there additional online resources for tokens? Other great books?
4. Who are the token experts here on the boards for me to read-up on their posts?

Any advice from the experts in this area would be appreciated. Thanks

ChangeInHistory

I'm not CWT expert, but you're already doing a lot of good prep. Just read as much as possible, look at as many as you can, in person or even online.
There are enough R1-R3 store cards out there to keep you busy and keep it affordable.

Mr_Spud

I’m not the expert you need, but like you, I find myself being drawn to Civil War Tokens, store cards and merchant tokens. For me it is a fun, relatively cheaper diversion from working on my registry sets.

I just bought a copy of this book and I’m hoping it will give me a ballpark guide to what they are worth so I don’t accidentally overpay. I hope so at least

NeophyteNumismatist

@Mr_Spud thanks for the image of the catalog. I will have to check that out. I agree that the pricing is very challenging. I cannot seem to get good baselines, as comparable tokens have sold for very different prices.

Also I am unsure on how to proceed in terms of going with graded vs raw examples. With thousands of token designs, it would make sense that many are still ungraded. However, I want to collect these in nicer condition coins and there does not seem to be a large cost delta between graded and raw examples of similar quality. It would be great for someone who has the pricing area for these figured out to chime-in.

@ChangeInHistory - I appreciate the kind words. I will continue to study until moving forward, and will pick-up a piece here and there as I learn and take it slow. I agree that the R1s and R2s are affordable, but there seem to be plenty of R4s and R5s in that category also. But, I am still trying to learn and map it out in my head first (but, plans have a way of changing as I learn).

Thanks again for the replies. I will happily listen to any sagely advice from token collectors.

GoldenEgg

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
Also I am unsure on how to proceed in terms of going with graded vs raw examples. With thousands of token designs, it would make sense that many are still ungraded. However, I want to collect these in nicer condition coins and there does not seem to be a large cost delta between graded and raw examples of similar quality. It would be great for someone who has the pricing area for these figured out to chime-in.

My input: collect by eye appeal, graded or ungraded. Unlike most US coins, a majority of the best pieces are still raw. On top of that, CWT’s are harder to grade (think of all the poorly struck and severely die-eroded pieces out there) and the TPG’s are relatively new at grading them. That means that the slabbed stuff is inconsistently graded and you can find some super undergraded and super overgraded stuff. Determine for yourself whether the highest graded pieces are the best pieces.

And always question the experts! There are folks with a lot of knowledge in this area, but there is still a lot to be discovered! What was once true, written about decades ago and repeated many times since, may no longer be accurate.

Also, there are too many CWTs to collect them all (unless you have endless time and money). Pick a theme and specialize in it. You will be rewarded later on.

BillJones

I was disappointed with the CWT section of the big blue Rulau book. The coverage not good, and the prices are now very dated. The late Brian Kanzenger wrote an excellent price guide 15 or 20 years ago unfortunately he passed on, and the prices are old.

Pricing CWTs is complicated. The guide books price them by rarity rating and condition, but it’s harder than that. Most Monitor tokens are common R-1 and 2, but they bring a lot more than other common tokens because they are popular. Tokens with interesting artwork bring more. Plain pieces are cheaper. Pieces with an interesting history are worth more. Tokens from hard to get states, like West Virginia and Kentucky are more expensive. Single merchant towns can be worth more.

I was shocked to see dealers asking $59 for common tokens at the Winter FUN show. When I was a dealer, they were $10 to $15.

Most collectors specialize in a certain area. A few go for everything. Super generalist collections might go up to 5,500 varieties.

I specialized in New England CWTs when I lived there. It’s a challenging set, despite the fact there aren’t that many token. I collected the Wealth of South pieces (tough and expensive) and the Wisconsin tokens by John Marr, the engraver. It’s really whatever you might enjoy.

And, yes, I collected half cents by die varieties in the 1980s, but I slammed into a wall with that collection. I met Roger Cohen several times and bought some coins from him.

Manifest_Destiny

I've always liked CWT's and owned a few years ago. If it were me, I'd specialize and pick a state and focus on the store cards. Then maybe add a few general patriotics.

The_Dinosaur_Man

Don't forget about the Civil War Token Mega thread on this forum, lots of good stuff in there.

DCW

Just in time for the 160th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg!
Collecting Civil War tokens and period medals have been the most fun I've had in this hobby. You can get a lot more bang for your buck than in traditional US coins, and the history is oftentimes more meaningful than collecting by date/mint mark.
You seem to have a good plan by having the books and the club associations. Now figure out what you hope to accomplish before you start your collection. As stated, there are over 10,000 varieties. You could not assemble a complete set of Civil War Tokens if you had Steve Cohen's money. This is because so many pieces are R9 and R10 and have been off the market for a long time. Some are probably lost. Who knows?
My advice is to collect by pictorial, state, or die sinker. I specialize in the tokens and medals of Joseph H Merriam of Boston, but I also keep a Box of 20 of the most interesting pictorials struck during the war.
You will have to search auction archives if you want to get a feel for pricing. As has already been said, grading is not standardized so it is all over the place. Go by eye appeal. And don't be afraid to pay up when the right piece comes along. Some of these things go decades before appearing at auction. Good luck and we are here for you if you have questions.

NeophyteNumismatist

@DCW I was thinking that I would start by just picking the designs I like best. The "Good for a Scent" token is on my list. There is some very interesting artwork, and whacky occupations and slogans. I also love the idea of collecting the die sinkers, because they are the artists that made to tokens in the first place. I also love the idea of collecting all of the coin dealer cards. There are so many fun roads to go down, that I feel like a squirrel crossing the road.

Your tokens are lovely, BTW!

Steve27

I agree with BillJones, the CWT section of the Rulau book is very outdated. I have a copy of A Guide Book of Civil War Tokens by Bowers and it's significantly better. I see you already found Steve Haden, he has great material, but it's not cheap.

I collect New York material:

DCW

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1040366/the-civil-war-token-mega-thread#latest

Check out the thread above for some great info and pieces we have shared on this forum.

291fifth

Don't waste your time or money buying the common ones. Buy fewer but better tokens ... rare cities/businesses/interesting subject matter.

BillJones

@291fifth said:
Don't waste your time or money buying the common ones. Buy fewer but better tokens ... rare cities/businesses/interesting subject matter.

I don't agree with this. I buy the pieces that I find historically interesting, whether they are common, scarce or rare. If they are common, more the better! Then I can buy it cheap.

Here is an example. This is patriotic die combination 118/418. It is an R-1 variety so if you only want the rare stuff, you are going to pass on it.

The obverse has George Washington flanked by Union flags. That looks real innocent and patriotic.

But for the reverse, you have two arms and hands greeting each other as equals. If you look at the cuffs, you will see "South" on the left side and "North" on the right side with the slogan "Peace Forever." This imagery is calling for independence for the Confederacy. The North and the South are at peace and are equals. That's all the South ever wanted.

This piece is a pro-southern copperhead Civil War Token.

BillJones

John Marr is my favorite Civil War token die maker. He made many attractive pieces for merchants in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area. Here are a few of them.

Miller Beer. Yes, this is a token issued by Fredrick Miller, the man who started the company.

Philip Best beer. He married into the Pabst family.

John Marr's company token. The reverse is called "The Naked Amazon."

This is only a sample.

BillJones

Henry Higgins, who made the Indiana Primitive Civil War tokens, is another of my favorite die sinkers, but from the opposite perspective. Higgins made his own dies from scratch, which were fairly crude. He also copied the designs from other Civil War tokens that he liked. It seems that he did it by softening the steel die face and then made the impression on it from a token he admired.

This is patriotic die combination 175/403. This one is a Mint State piece. Most IPs were heavily circulated.

The reverse is a typical Indiana Primitive with the lettering uneven and a number of odd little design features. The obverse came from this CWT. 174/272

You will note that the IP copy lost some detail which is to be expected.

This is only one example.

NeophyteNumismatist

Thanks @BillJones . I enjoy reading your posts. You share your knowledge in the humblest, most fascinating way. Thanks for this.

calgolddiver

a few that I have acquired over the last couple of years.

NeophyteNumismatist

Love the under type on those @calgolddiver !

NeophyteNumismatist

I took the plunge and ordered my first token tonight. I don't have it in hand yet, but I like the design a lot.!

IN 460N-1a R.5

jesbroken

Neo. Stephanie(coinsarefun) would be someone I would speak with. She is very knowledgeable and can provide invaluable info to assist in your endeavor. Best luck.
Jim

Inlander

I've collected civil war tokens on and off over the years... rarity and eye appeal are a big dead when it comes to sell... that and patience.

NeophyteNumismatist

Thanks @jesbroken .

@coinsarefun , if you have any advice for a new token collector like me, I would be happy to listen. I know a little about copper, but tokens are pretty foreign territory for me. I know I like them, and I am more attracted to store cards. Beyond this I am lost, but getting the resources to properly educate myself.

Happy to speak publicly or privately at your discretion. Thanks in advance.

Project Numismatics

Wow @BillJones and @calgolddiver. Fantastic pieces.

I started collecting CWT's last year and it's been incredibly fun. Joined the CWTS, bought the books and keep eye on the dealer websites already mentioned.

I love the history and the fact that I can get so much more rarity and eye appeal for the money. So far, I've simply purchased what I like (intriguing design or interesting theme plus eye appeal) and am building toward a Box of 20. These were my first two acquisitions from 2022:

NeophyteNumismatist

Very nice @Project Numismatics ! Any advice you can glean from your first two years? Sometimes I get great advice from those that are just a little ahead of me, because the learning curve is fresh in the mind.

Mr_Spud

@NeophyteNumismatist , I really like the one you just bought, the design of the guy in the Long shirt looks cool.

Below is my new favorite token. I purchased it recently off of eBay. Full disclosure - I copied the text from the auction description, I don’t know all that stuff just yet. Also the coin pictures are from the auction, I asked permission from the seller because I liked how he captured the color. I have no idea if I overpayed or not too, I just know that I really like everything about how it looks.

calgolddiver

another good reference for the topic.

calgolddiver

@Project Numismatics thank you !

calgolddiver

@NeophyteNumismatist thank you! the host coin really stands out in these examples.

Project Numismatics

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
Very nice @Project Numismatics ! Any advice you can glean from your first two years? Sometimes I get great advice from those that are just a little ahead of me, because the learning curve is fresh in the mind.

I think you are doing all the right things and doing a better job of it than I did!

NeophyteNumismatist

Thanks @Mr_Spud . I really like the Andrew Jackson/Snake token, too. It's one of the Patriotic tokens that are on my list (which is getting long). I really like the color of yours! Nice choice.

Like you, I have no idea how to effectively price these tokens. I also noticed that some of the tokens I "watch" on eBay the sellers come back with significant discounts (ie. I watched a token that was $150, and the dealer came back right away at $100...thats 33% before we even start talking). Likewise, there are serious swings on the same coin in the same grade (I realize this happens in all coins, but it seems moreso in tokens). This tells me that the prices are inflated from the start.

It will take some time for me to develop in this area... happy to learn with others

@Project Numismatics - You are too kind, and I sincerely doubt I am doing "any better" than you did. This is an esoteric specialty with it's own nuances and lots to learn. When it comes to numismatics, I am still wearing my training wheels... but I am still loving the ride .

Project Numismatics

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
Thanks @Mr_Spud . I really like the Andrew Jackson/Snake token, too. It's one of the Patriotic tokens that are on my list (which is getting long). I really like the color of yours! Nice choice.

Like you, I have no idea how to effectively price these tokens. I also noticed that some of the tokens I "watch" on eBay the sellers come back with significant discounts (ie. I watched a token that was $150, and the dealer came back right away at $100...thats 33% before we even start talking). Likewise, there are serious swings on the same coin in the same grade (I realize this happens in all coins, but it seems moreso in tokens). This tells me that the prices are inflated from the start.

It will take some time for me to develop in this area... happy to learn with others

@Project Numismatics - You are too kind, and I sincerely doubt I am doing "any better" than you did. This is an esoteric specialty with it's own nuances and lots to learn. When it comes to numismatics, I am still wearing my training wheels... but I am still loving the ride .

I bought those two tokens before I bought the books and joined the CWTS - I got a bit too excited!

Once I bought the books, I slowed down and took more time to learn. I am still very happy with those first two tokens, but it would have been wiser to do more research first like you are doing.

I will say though that some CWTs are quite rare and it does occasionally make sense to jump on one if its R8/R9/R10 and you have interest - it might not be offered for sale again!

NeophyteNumismatist

@Project Numismatics For what it's worth, both of those tokens are on my list... and I don't see them coming off. The "Good for a Scent" token is so whimsical and cool, and the "Wealth of the South" provides a rare glimpse into pro-confederate coinage. To me, both of them are important enough to add. I know both designs are expensive, so I am definitely going to be looking-out for those specifically as I better understand the market.

I would love to hear more about the path you took and decisions you made along the way. What were your best decisions? What were your decisions that could have been better? How did you pick a direction in a vast area? Or, are you just buying tokens that speak to you?

...For the rest of the CWT collectors, too. How did you get into it? What where the best decisions you made while collecting CWTs? What was the mistake you made that you now keep in mind whenever buying a token? If you picked an area of specialty, how did process that?

BillJones

You can collect all of the tokens from one state, say New York.

You can also collect by topic, for example, anti-slavery. Here are a few of those.

Patriotic token numbers 36/340. Obverse 36 was married to three different reverses. This is the most common by far.

Variety numbers 36/271. This is the second most common combination.

Variety 36/432 This is the hardest one by a good margin.

Here is an Indiana Primitive. "Proclaim liberty throughout the land" is on the Liberty Bell. It was an anti-slavery symbol during the war. The variety numbers are 9/406

Here is another one with a different reverse die. The variety is 9/407

There are other possible anti-slavery pieces which are a bit more contriversal.

Manifest_Destiny

You have some awesome pieces @BillJones

Boosibri

I did the same and started a side set of my hometown tokens. I originally was going to do a box of 10 or 20, but the prices of things like Good for a Scent and wealth of the South run into the thousands.

My advice is the recognize how rare some of these are and snap those up ASAP, and wait for the right price in the more available popular tokens

Zoins

Civil War Tokens are a rich and interesting area! I'm glad you decided to jump in @NeophyteNumismatist.

I just jumped in and started picking up what I thought were eye appealing specimens.

Here are a few of mine:

NeophyteNumismatist

Totally agree @Zoins ... and your tokens are beautiful. Are you focusing in NY, or did it just work out that way?

Zoins

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
Totally agree @Zoins ... and your tokens are beautiful. Are you focusing in NY, or did it just work out that way?

Thanks for the compliments!

It just worked out that way.

I got the 1st and 3rd ones due to the money-related "Time is Money" and "Money Makes the Mare Go" slogans which I like.

I got the "For Public Accommodation" token due to the toning and that I like store card tokens from Civil War Token die sinkers. The fact that the Money Makes the Mare Go token is also a die sinker store card is a bonus.

coinsarefun

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
Thanks @jesbroken .

@coinsarefun , if you have any advice for a new token collector like me, I would be happy to listen. I know a little about copper, but tokens are pretty foreign territory for me. I know I like them, and I am more attracted to store cards. Beyond this I am lost, but getting the resources to properly educate myself.

Happy to speak publicly or privately at your discretion. Thanks in advance.

.
There has been a ton of great information posted already and I thank those who think I’m queen token lady…..but,
not sure I fully fit into that category.
I have sold the majority of my collection consisting of toned world coins, US toned type set coins.
Hard times tokens, civil war tokens, merchant tokens and medals.
.
Now that I’m retired I am starting to return to my website coinsarefun.com and stating writing articles about tokens
and so many other things. It’s s small start but if you chose to go to the site click on the tab Coinsarefun research tabs.
In 3-5 months it should be even more informative with me writing things and haven’t a few forum member here also
That have written articles. I’m trying to put it into an easy to read and search website.

In the meantime the King of tokens and coins was Frank aka @Broadstruck.
He was a wealth of information when he passed away recently we lost a good soul, and
vast knowledge. This link will take you to his posts that he wrote.
Some pics are missing but he discusses a ton of great material

https://forums.collectors.com/profile/discussions/Broadstruck

.
The last several years I’ve changed somewhat. I’ve gotten away from cwt’s and hard times tokens.
I was also into British Conder tokens. But only have a few left. Selling most of what I had got me thinking
what I really enjoy collecting. And, it’s pictorials, merchant tokens. All the way into the early 50-60’s.
There are some fantastic and certainly rare items that have the look I’m after.
I’ve also gotten into So called dollars, but, slugs in particular.
Two other adventures have been heraldic Art medals and ANA coin club medals.
Most are incredibly rare and low mintages and are still affordable.
.
This are my recommendations to you. If you want to stick to one set of tokens that’s fine. After all you need to be happy
in what you collect or it’s not worth collecting. In a nutshell, I’m all over the place collecting what I think has superior
eye appeal. Doesn’t have to be super rare but nice high quality pieces are what I search for.

If you want to pm me for more info please feel free as I can go on forever.
I can give you links of other types of tokens I collect as well.
.
I will stop rambling as most here know I’m capable of doing so
Look forward to our pm’s and getting my website information going so you can see what you like to collect.
And……your first piece is just beautiful, right up my alley!

Stefanie

NeophyteNumismatist

@coinsarefun -thanks so much for responding. I will definitely PM you. I am looking for all the information I can get.

And, thanks for you kind words on my first token. I really have no idea what I am doing, and just was dying to get my first token and knew I really liked that one. That said, I would like to "buy smarter" moving forward (which is not to say I feel like I made a mistake or regret the purchase.... I just don't know this market at all and there are clear differences from the coin market).

BillJones

@NeophyteNumismatist said:
@coinsarefun -thanks so much for responding. I will definitely PM you. I am looking for all the information I can get.

And, thanks for you kind words on my first token. I really have no idea what I am doing, and just was dying to get my first token and knew I really liked that one. That said, I would like to "buy smarter" moving forward (which is not to say I feel like I made a mistake or regret the purchase.... I just don't know this market at all and there are clear differences from the coin market).

There is nothing wrong with the R.R. Parker Shirt token. I sold probably three or four of them when I was dealer. I liked the design but decided not to keep one.

It's a lot more interesting that the endless number of pieces with an Indian head on the obverse and only words, with the merchant's name, on the reverse. Those are great if you want to get every token from a state or town, but they generally did not attract me.

BillJones

Here is a neat group to assemble, but it's very pricey. These are four 1860 presidential candidates.

These are most often found with the "President's House" reverse as seen on this Lincoln piece.

Finding the Lincoln piece with this reverse is harder. I believe that this one was struck and used during the 1860 presidential campaign given the plating and the hole. It has Andrew Jackson's pro-union quote on the reverse.

tommy44

Looks like you may have made this change in direction about 86 years to late. Here's a ad from a February 1937 issue of the Numismatic Scrapbook that could have gotten you off to a good start.

NeophyteNumismatist

@Mr_Spud said:
@NeophyteNumismatist , I really like the one you just bought, the design of the guy in the Long shirt looks cool.

Below is my new favorite token. I purchased it recently off of eBay. Full disclosure - I copied the text from the auction description, I don’t know all that stuff just yet. Also the coin pictures are from the auction, I asked permission from the seller because I liked how he captured the color. I have no idea if I overpayed or not too, I just know that I really like everything about how it looks.

Thanks @Mr_Spud . I really like the Andrew Jackson/Snake token, too. It's one of the Patriotic tokens that are on my list (which is getting long). I really like the color of yours! Nice choice.

Like you, I have no idea how to effectively price these tokens. I also noticed that some of the tokens I "watch" on eBay the sellers come back with significant discounts (ie. I watched a token that was $150, and the dealer came back right away at $100...thats 33% before we even start talking). Likewise, there are serious swings on the same coin in the same grade (I realize this happens in all coins, but it seems moreso in tokens). This tells me that the prices are inflated from the start.

It will take some time for me to develop in this area... happy to learn with others

@Project Numismatics - You are too kind, and I sincerely doubt I am doing "any better" than you did. This is an esoteric specialty with it's own nuances and lots to learn. When it comes to numismatics, I am still wearing my training wheels... but I am still loving the ride .

NeophyteNumismatist

delete - duplicate

NeophyteNumismatist

deleted - triplicate

NeophyteNumismatist

@Mr_Spud said:
@NeophyteNumismatist , I really like the one you just bought, the design of the guy in the Long shirt looks cool.

Below is my new favorite token. I purchased it recently off of eBay. Full disclosure - I copied the text from the auction description, I don’t know all that stuff just yet. Also the coin pictures are from the auction, I asked permission from the seller because I liked how he captured the color. I have no idea if I overpayed or not too, I just know that I really like everything about how it looks.

Thanks @Mr_Spud . I really like the Andrew Jackson/Snake token, too. It's one of the Patriotic tokens that are on my list (which is getting long). I really like the color of yours! Nice choice.

Like you, I have no idea how to effectively price these tokens. I also noticed that some of the tokens I "watch" on eBay the sellers come back with significant discounts (ie. I watched a token that was $150, and the dealer came back right away at $100...thats 33% before we even start talking). Likewise, there are serious swings on the same coin in the same grade (I realize this happens in all coins, but it seems moreso in tokens). This tells me that the prices are inflated from the start.

It will take some time for me to develop in this area... happy to learn with others

@Project Numismatics - You are too kind, and I sincerely doubt I am doing "any better" than you did. This is an esoteric specialty with it's own nuances and lots to learn. When it comes to numismatics, I am still wearing my training wheels... but I am still loving the ride .

NeophyteNumismatist

delete - quintuplicate post (sheesh - sorry)