No guarantee that a coin with green CAC will resticker.. RESOLVED WITH JA..PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD
Herb_T
Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
I bought a PCGS graded coin that had a green CAC sticker on it. Sent it into PCGS to have an attribute applied to it and then had the coin resubmitted to CAC to have the sticker reapplied. CAC denied the resticker request. Coin was 1 in 5000 that this happens to.
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For a business that is attempting to bring consistency to grading, this is pretty disappointing.
Acquiring a coin with a CAC sticker costs a premium. If you pay for that premium, they should stand by their work. Otherwise it all falls apart.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Did the certification number change?
will a bass do?
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
if it was a reholder and same cert, they would not put another sticker on it?
This is the point when I go back to my original stance on CAC
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Ah yes, let us all grab our pitchforks and torches before we bother to gather any of the facts surrounding this situation
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@davewesen
Sounds like Herb advised them that the coin previously had a sticker and wanted it reapplied after getting a variety added. I know this same situation has happened other times.
Edit: This is a situation where CAC acknowledges that the coin previously had a sticker and refused to reapply.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Understood, I just wanted to share info with Dave et al that a variety attribution is different from a reholder and a new cert # is issued. CAC considers this a new grading event, not a resticker. It's unfortunate (and fairly unusual) that the coin did not pass again.
I fail to see the problem without more details. Suppose the coin turned in the holder? Is CAC supposed to ignore that?
The story is suspect or missing information. Most coins are restickered. But I don’t believe “ our standards have changed “ at all.
Coin may have changed in holder. Something . If poster didn’t have a high post count I’d question whether or not this was just a hit piece .
in the past, to get variety you would pay for variety and reholder and coin kept same numbers (grade and cert)
Ummmmmmm
If true ( note , I said “ if”) I’m glad that try as I may I’ve never been able to add a CAC slab to my collection.
Will I still try? Absolutely 🤠
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I agree that more info about the coin (type and time frame in which it was first sticker) would be helpful.
That doesn’t sound at all like something that CAC would say. Was it an exact quote?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have cherry picked a PCGS/ Bean coin that was an unattributed variety, submitted it for attribution and it kept the same cert number. Then had it submitted back to CAC to get a new sticker with no issue.
Ws
Some potentially relevant info from the CAC website:
Source: https://help.cacgrading.com/support/solutions/articles/151000075970-cac-stickering-frequently-asked-questions
That is very surprising. Could very well be interpreted as invalidating ALL CAC stickers until resubmitted.... If standards change, then previously graded coins are in question. Should even warrant a change in the sticker to assure the new standards were applied. Something of this magnitude certainly warrants official confirmation from CAC. Cheers, RickO
Can you post the old cac slab pics versus the new slab pic. Who said "they raised their standards"
From my experience, this is completely wrong. Although I haven't sent any coins to pcgs in about 3 years, I have sent many in for variety attribution.
You do it under reholder and add on variety attribution on the paperwork. The only number that will change is the coin number. The cert. Number does not change.
Someone gave you bad information that probably cost more money as well.
Also some previously certified coins by PCGS or NGC will not be reslabbed at the same grade for various reasons, so it is not entirely surprising that cac is not offering a blanket guarantee of restickering.
As a minimally interested observer, I was thinking the same thing after reading the OP’s opening post, thinking hmm, maybe gold is now the new green!
But as many are implying, let’s get more information.
Coins turn in the holder all the time, reaction to atmosphere / etc. Or re-evaluation. So whatever their reason not surprised that happened.
Glad they re-evaluate them! Sometimes people think a TPG opinion forever. Well it isn’t - standards change, market conditions may weigh in, reaction to the atmosphere comes into play.
When offered coins off the bourse - is this guy trying dump on me, has coin gone bad in holder, is it low end trash, is he asking too much, do I agree with grade on holder? Many times I pass. I don’t want to be the bank for their mistakes.
I wonder if the coin was also submitted for 'reconsideration' to possibly get a higher grade?
Perhaps slabs and stickers should come with expiration dates.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Best coin forum meme I’ve seen maybe ever.
Without more information we’re just guessing what the reason was. Everyone will interpret the information differently.
The way I interpreted the original post was that CAC no longer accepts whatever series or type coin the OP wanted to get re-stickered.
An expiration date for coins would assume event x at a point in time which may or may not happen. I just retreat to the premise numismatic investment is risky and YMMV.
I think CAC should put RED stickers on all coins that do not pass 😂
I do. CAC has changed its standards in the past. For instance some blue and purple copper that initially stickered with the putative “MS 70 look” will now be rejected. Ditto for extremely thick toning on high grade grade coins that could obscure luster. In those cases, the standards have tightened. TDN of Legend (a former equity partner in CAC) acknowledged sticker inflation albeit at a much slower rate than the grading services.
I've heard of this "the coin turned in the holder" and my first thought is for decades this classic coin was impervious to "turning" yet once it is in an inert PCGS slab it can then "turn in the holder"?
What the heck are these holders made of that can cause this to be even a possibility?
And why isn't that a bigger concern than it appears to be now?
peacockcoins
Other than coins in the old ANACS holders, I’m very skeptical of coins “turning in holders all the time” rhetoric. Sure, old putty jobs can turn hazy, and some doctors seemed to be able to intentionally gas coins in holders to create toning. But I think most slabbed coins kept under normal conditions are fine.
I live in hot, humid Florida near the ocean, I don’t use desiccants, most of our appliances are nat gas, and my 100+ slabbed coins in copper, silver, and gold at home or the bank haven’t changed at all, and I’ve owned most for over 20 years.
He has stated that exactly, particularly regarding the heavily toned coins. In addition, JA has said in interviews that he has stretched to approve a coin when, for example, a collector sent in a box of 20 and zero of them should have stickered and he subconsciously felt bad for the submitter.
That being said, I doubt the OP is relating an exact quote and, like many others, I suspect that there is some pertinent info that is being omitted in this case.
@braddick I have an 1892 Columbian Half that is in a Gen 2.2 holder. It has started to get some spotty toning on the reverse that wasn't there when I purchased it 2 years ago. I attribute it to the humidity here in Florida..even with the A/C on the air indoors has a high humidity content. Luckily the other silver coins I have don't seem to be affected...except for a tiny bit of rim toning on my Cleveland half in a rattler. My guess is the older holders are more prone to this happening. I only collect Brown Large Cents so I am not too worried about them changing from Red or RB. Note that PCGS and NGC only guarantee color on copper coins for 10 years...so this is a problem known to them. I imagine they are aware of the tarnishing of silver coins.
When time comes to sell my Commemoratives I can always have PCGS dip and reholder the worst looking ones.
That's not at all what he said. He said they raised their standards not that they no longer accept that type.
RLSnapper- I agree it is happening. I suppose I am a bit perplexed as to why this isn't a larger issue with the thoughts of fixing it.
Perhaps there have been thread(s) on this issue that I have overlooked or missed.
peacockcoins
That is my experience with newer holders. The older holders, not just ANACS, did change. I saw a full set of RED Indian cents in old PCGS holders that spent 15 years in a SDB and they were all RB.
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I don't see the 10 year time limit on PCGS guarantee information (to clarify no guarantee on copper color). Below is the current guarantee page and a link to the Dec 2009 notice update on guarantee (it is at the bottom of the link).
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https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
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Dec 2009 notice.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
This thread reminds me of 'What' Up' by 4 Non Blondes. With the phrase.......... What's going on.
And so I wake in the morning and I step outside
And I take a deep breath and I get real high
And I scream from the top of my lungs
"What's going on?"
And I say, hey-ey-ey
Hey-ey-ey
I said "Hey, what's going on?"
And I say, hey-ey-ey
Hey-ey-ey
I said "Hey, a-what's going on?"
And I say, hey-ey-ey
(Wake in the morning and step outside)
Hey-ey-ey
(Take a deep breath and I get real high)
(And I scream)
I said "Hey, a-what's going on?"
And I say, hey-ey-ey
(Wake in the morning and step outside)
Hey-ey, yeah yeah yeah
(Take a deep breath and I get real high)
(And I scream)
I said "Hey, a-what's going on?"
To step away from the great original version, here is one via Lady Gaga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0YjGKqauw
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I’m sorry to read you didn’t get a resticker.
The few times I have done it, after a reholder due to case scratches, I received the sticker.
I have had several coins submitted for variety attribution and I am fairly certain that the s/n did not change...and were recac'd.
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Loved the original song in my youth!! LOL!!
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
That's disturbing....What are owners of earlier CAC stickered coins to think? Are their coins, now, inferior? I am really surprised that CAC would make such a statement, even if true....
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I don’t think there should be a free pass on 2nd or later CAC review. Coin Owners need to take responsibility in their decisions on coins.
Even left in bank box for years coins can change in eye appeal, etc. Banks can shut off AC at closing. Over time….
The sticker is a point in time. Any premium (which I consider subjective) goes south (my bid or offer) if the coin is in an unfavorable state vs when it was stickered or coin does not meet my standards for PQ (if I even bid / offer on it period). This thread educational as if offered coins I don’t know how nice they are now vs when graded / stickered (and need beware of that).
@lilolme I stand corrected....NGC only guarantees the grade on copper for 10 years. Here is an example for a cert I looked up. I like that NGC gives you the date the coin was slabbed.
Copper Coins Notice: Coins made of copper, bronze, brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated coins graded by NGC, the grade portion will no longer apply after the 10 year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC. This coin was encapsulated on 10/21/2003 and the grade guarantee will expire on 10/21/2013. If the grade guarantee has not expired, it may be extended by submitting the coin under NGC's ReHolder service tier. If the grade guarantee has expired, the coin will be treated as a raw (ungraded) submission if resubmitted to NGC.
Interesting. Is this in writing?
I wonder what this will mean for stickered/CACL coins.
I have read about the Legacy issue but for me it would make me wonder what the coin like when graded then vs now. YMMV. Has it gone south in any way? Consequently - Who’s holder it was in not a big deal to me lol.
I bet it’s not in writing and that the comment from CAC was quite different from what’s been stated.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OP just made the original post with no pics and no follow up post.
Until I know more, I personally don’t lend much weight to this post/statement. I think the ‘devil’s in the details’ which there’s not much of, at least at this point.