This can't be good for the Brand, or no end in sight...

burfle23

I don't know how anyone can keep up with this; seller shows rows and rows of counterfeit "Morgans" in counterfeit PCGS slabs in this latest internet offering...

gumby1234

Yikes

braddick

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115798217853

Walkerguy21D

And nice blurry angled photos, just in case anyone wants a closer look..,,

lilolme

The only thing I find surprising is that they photographed it all.

From previous, below is the pdf on the counterfeit coins (it is in the Resources thread). I will throw in a YouTube where the guy basically goes through the same stuff as the pdf. Both previously posted on the forum. So with all the counterfeit coins and the known fake slab availability, it just goes that there are going to be a lot of fake slabs with bad coins and some with a real but over-graded coins.

There has been no stopping counterfeit coins for years and years. Not sure the newer fake slab can be stopped. The counterfeit coins have been partially fought with visibility / awareness and education. The OP has numerous articles on it. There are books on counterfeits and many series books will have a section on counterfeit coins. PCGS wrote a book - grading and counterfeit detection.

So I still believe that a similar approach might be one way to try and combat the fake slab. The threads help, so keep them going, but are unfortunately limited to forum visitors only. Also buying from reputable dealers or similar will limit exposure.
At bottom my previous thread of ideas. Anyone have some?

Counterfeit coins
http://ncna.club/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Counterfeit-Coins-Article.pdf
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k6My_5tFAI
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083352/counterfeit-pcgs-slabs-can-more-be-done

jesbroken

What if we all, everyone on this board, sent a message to ebay asking for help regarding this very issue. Their brand will eventually take a beating also. They need to install a professional numismatist to oversee listings such as this. I am sure their could be a type of wording search by ebay to facilitate an avenue of discovery, just as the FBI and other government agencies to in their battle against terrorism. Not for sure it would matter, but I am certain it would not hurt. What do you think?
Jim

johnny010

Reported

braddick

@jesbroken said:
What if we all, everyone on this board, sent a message to ebay asking for help regarding this very issue. Their brand will eventually take a beating also. They need to install a professional numismatist to oversee listings such as this. I am sure their could be a type of wording search by ebay to facilitate an avenue of discovery, just as the FBI and other government agencies to in their battle against terrorism. Not for sure it would matter, but I am certain it would not hurt. What do you think?
Jim

I like your thinking Jim, yet why would eBay pay a professional (figure 100K plus benefits) when they have all of us doing it for free?

morgandollar1878

Reported to Ebay.

PCGS is going to have to do something other than just cancelling the cert numbers for the coins that are genuine. The counterfeiters are just going to move on to another cert number that is valid.

@HeatherBoyd
@PCGS_Moderator
@PCGS_SocialMedia

Tramp

Any chance the TPG, eBay and the other large auction houses put money together to lobby Congress to enact legislation that further protects this hobby and other hobbies with stiff penalties and federal prosecution for counterfeiting coins, holders, etc. under the consumer protection of FTC. Is anyone reporting these people to the FTC for starters?

https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/

After all, all this has the potential to decimate this hobby/market that employs many people not to mention the collectors themselves.

If these people are cut off at the knees and it's publicized then people will think twice about messing with us.

Zoins

How many people here have been fooled by things like this?

I just say yes to Gold Shield and TrueView, which PCGS has been trying to get us to all use anyway.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364235493808

Zoins

@Tramp said:
Any chance the TPG, eBay and the other large auction houses put money together to lobby Congress to enact legislation that further protects this hobby and other hobbies with stiff penalties and federal prosecution for counterfeiting coins, holders, etc. under the consumer protection of FTC. Is anyone reporting these people to the FTC for starters?

https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/

After all, all this has the potential to decimate this hobby/market that employs many people not to mention the collectors themselves.

If these people are cut off at the knees and it's publicized then people will think twice about messing with us.

Things like counterfeiting coins and holders may be happening outside the jurisdiction of Congress. What US governments may be able to do is increase the penalties for selling.

To stop the counterfeiting, you'd need the US Trade Representative to get involved by getting other countries to normalize laws in this area, like was done for the DCMA. As it is, the creation of these is likely legal where it's happening now. It's the importers that are breaking the law.

keyman64

Has this problem occurred with uniquely toned high grade coins or just average looking, mostly white non-CAC Morgans for the most part? Either way, something needs to be done.

Zoins

eBay does have an Authenticity Guarantee program that covers sneakers and watches among other things. Perhaps it can be expanded to cover coins.

https://pages.ebay.com/authenticity-guarantee/

Cladiator

When I buy PSA graded baseball cards with a value over a few hundred dollars (don't remember the exact dollar amount that triggers this service) the cards are mailed from the seller to an authenticator via an eBay service. Once all is authenticated the 3rd party service then sends the item on to the buyer. PSA is under the same umbrella as PCGS. I see no reason why the same process couldn't be done for PCGS graded coins.

jesbroken

I think one of the easiest things PCGS could do to protect their brand would be to simply photo every single coin and provide it on their certification page. Just a thought. At least you would have a photo to compare with the cert.#. Wouldn't need a Phil Photo for this purpose but a good focused photo of holder and coin.
Jim

treybenedict

People sell labels, slabs, and coins in bulk on Alibaba. Obviously, to the trained collector, it is easy to see.

I see more of a problem with a cracked-out coin, a genuine label put into a fake plastic shell. People upgrading 95-W's in 69 to 70 with one swap of the label.

Need for tamper-proof labels/nfc imo.

Project Numismatics

Fake goods are a massive problem that extends way beyond our hobby. I think it’s optimistic to expect a government solution - large luxury brands with far more influence have not been able to stem the tide. Partnering with other industries would increase the chances of constructive legislation and trade agreements.

burfle23

My friend's video on these latest bad coins and labs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YIM3yIAfhE

burfle23

@Zoins said:
How many people here have been fooled by things like this?

I just say yes to Gold Shield and TrueView, which PCGS has been trying to get us to all use anyway.

I'm sorry, but constantly citing True Views is NOT the answer...

Tramp

@Zoins said:

Things like counterfeiting coins and holders may be happening outside the jurisdiction of Congress. What US governments may be able to do is increase the penalties for selling.

Without these seller's stateside, perpetrating this fraud, we probably wouldn't have much to talk about regarding counterfeiting.

Submit counterfeit seller's to the FTC at this link: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/

Zoins

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:
How many people here have been fooled by things like this?

I just say yes to Gold Shield and TrueView, which PCGS has been trying to get us to all use anyway.

I'm sorry, but constantly citing True Views is NOT the answer...

Maybe not for you, but it’s totally the answer for me. These slabs are really a non-issue if one always gets TrueViews.

And it’s not the only thing I’ve mentioned. Check out the posts on eBay’s authenticity program and working with the USTR.

If you don't think TrueViews are the answer, what do you think is the answer?

Zoins

@Project Numismatics said:
Fake goods are a massive problem that extends way beyond our hobby. I think it’s optimistic to expect a government solution - large luxury brands with far more influence have not been able to stem the tide. Partnering with other industries would increase the chances of constructive legislation and trade agreements.

The interesting thing about major luxury brands is that some groups of people just walk into and out of stores stealing genuine goods in front of the security service in broad daylight. Imagine if it ever got to that level with coins.

ProofCollection

@Cladiator said:
When I buy PSA graded baseball cards with a value over a few hundred dollars (don't remember the exact dollar amount that triggers this service) the cards are mailed from the seller to an authenticator via an eBay service. Once all is authenticated the 3rd party service then sends the item on to the buyer. PSA is under the same umbrella as PCGS. I see no reason why the same process couldn't be done for PCGS graded coins.

That's probably what PCGS (and NGC and now CAC) needs to do if it isn't already is work with ebay to develop and offer authenticity programs for coins as they do with other categories.

Edited to add: What if eBay had a "plugin" button where you could click "verify authenticity" and it pulls up the coin cert page and TV image? And possibly even past sales of that cert? And red-flag listings for known-stolen or bad coins? It wouldn't be that hard to implement, it would just take a few $$$ and a few meetings.

lilolme

@burfle23 said:
My friend's video on these latest bad coins and labs:

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Just so people are aware and not to criticize the video because I thought it was good for the fake slab in hand. However, there are different fake slabs and some appear better. So one can not rely on some of the information in the video.

From a previous thread here is a better fake slab but it is also a fake of an older holder. Being older fake holder takes away some of the detective items (no NFC and logos). Notice this fake slab has the pcgs logo in the plastic and also has the almost correct three prongs. It also appears that the plastic (clear) is much closer to the real one. However, as noted in the video the font is a little off.

The owner, when they had the slab in hand, noted how the prongs did not offset the coin as much as the pcgs prongs. This so far appears to be true with other fake slabs and sometimes noticeable (almost touching it appears).

And at then the real versus fake pcgs slab side by side.

Oh one more from previous thread, the label comparison for font.

Also on a pcgs label with the varying color it is a dot type color change as best I can word it. At bottom of label it is white with small blue dots. The dots get larger as one moves up the label and the blue dots start to touch each other. Near the top it is sort of the opposite with a blue label and small white dots. Also going to the pcgs holder page (link below) will note a few things including the pcgs gold shield.The Gold Shield has micro printing. It is also a kind of metallic gold and not a 'painted' gold as many fakes look. I took a snap-o'matic to try and capture this.

Finally in the video one can notice how the black NFC logo on the fake reverse label is larger. The true pcgs NFC logo is about the height of the letters (this one is shifted up slightly from the letter but about the same height). The fakes are a little larger on the ones I have seen here on the forum (and a little 'heavier'). Screen shot from video at bottom of this.

https://www.pcgs.com/security
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13265611/#Comment_13265611
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13265653/#Comment_13265653
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13264949/#Comment_13264949
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https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13264145/#Comment_13264145
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PeakRarities

@Project Numismatics said:
Fake goods are a massive problem that extends way beyond our hobby. I think it’s optimistic to expect a government solution - large luxury brands with far more influence have not been able to stem the tide. Partnering with other industries would increase the chances of constructive legislation and trade agreements.

Cartier will no longer authenticate their own "love bracelet" anymore, unless you can show the original receipt and paperwork from Cartier. Even in the grey market, you can't sell an authentic one for authentic money, because no one can tell the difference between the originals and the high quality replicas.

ricko

The market is rife with counterfeit coins and slabs. Many are imports, but not all. Numismatics is a small sector of the market and struggles to get official recognition. Likely legislative action will have to result from teaming with other areas of collector interests that also experience a burgeoning load of fake products. Cheers, RickO

burfle23

@morgandollar1878 said:
Reported to Ebay.

PCGS is going to have to do something other than just cancelling the cert numbers for the coins that are genuine. The counterfeiters are just going to move on to another cert number that is valid.

@HeatherBoyd
@PCGS_Moderator
@PCGS_SocialMedia

Listing was removed; nothing else from the seller yet...

BuffaloIronTail

@Tramp said:
Any chance the TPG, eBay and the other large auction houses put money together to lobby Congress to enact legislation that further protects this hobby and other hobbies with stiff penalties and federal prosecution for counterfeiting coins, holders, etc. under the consumer protection of FTC. Is anyone reporting these people to the FTC for starters?

https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/

After all, all this has the potential to decimate this hobby/market that employs many people not to mention the collectors themselves.

If these people are cut off at the knees and it's publicized then people will think twice about messing with us.

I wish that were true.............

It's getting worse rather than better. For every one you drop two come back to replace it.

Pete

asheland

I've seen a bunch of these in person recently, they don't come close to fooling me, but I can see how they fool others...

It sucks for sure!

Zoins

@asheland said:
I've seen a bunch of these in person recently, they don't come close to fooling me, but I can see how they fool others...

It sucks for sure!

I've also wondered who these fool, along with the best way to alert these collectors.

For example, do the buyers of these frequent:

1. CU forums
2. Instagram
3. YouTube
4. Reddit
5. Facebook
6. Local coin clubs
7. Local coin shops
8. No place

And then depending on where they frequent, posting there would be the best way to propagate education on these.

burfle23

I do it on various coin forums, FB, coin shops, coin clubs, coin shows, Coin Week and UTube with the help of others...

From a local show:

asheland

@Zoins said:

@asheland said:
I've seen a bunch of these in person recently, they don't come close to fooling me, but I can see how they fool others...

It sucks for sure!

I've also wondered who these fool, along with the best way to alert these collectors.

For example, do the buyers of these frequent:

1. CU forums
2. Instagram
3. YouTube
4. Reddit
5. Facebook
6. Local coin clubs
7. Local coin shops
8. No place

And then depending on where they frequent, posting there would be the best way to propagate education on these.

I work in a B&M and a customer brought them in...

asheland

I'm not sure where he said that he got them, an antique store perhaps?

cameonut2011

Maybe the seller intends them as fantasy slabs as cheap fillers in a certified album. The slabs are so obvious as are the coins that no one would be fooled. 😉

PerryHall

@cameonut2011 said:
Maybe the seller intends them as fantasy slabs as cheap fillers in a certified album. The slabs are so obvious as are the coins that no one would be fooled. 😉

They would fool many new collectors who want to invest in coins.

Zoins

I have to wonder if they do the 4-prong gaskets on purposes so they can easily tell themselves if a coin is theirs or not.

Zoins

@PerryHall said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Maybe the seller intends them as fantasy slabs as cheap fillers in a certified album. The slabs are so obvious as are the coins that no one would be fooled. 😉

They would fool many new collectors who want to invest in coins.

I'm guessing they would fool people that don't validate their purchases, but posting online or via other methods.

I imagine posting on Reddit would identify these as counterfeits.

daltex

@Cladiator said:
When I buy PSA graded baseball cards with a value over a few hundred dollars (don't remember the exact dollar amount that triggers this service) the cards are mailed from the seller to an authenticator via an eBay service. Once all is authenticated the 3rd party service then sends the item on to the buyer. PSA is under the same umbrella as PCGS. I see no reason why the same process couldn't be done for PCGS graded coins.

I think it's coming for all collectibles. SNADs and fraud just cost eBay too much. And eBay really can't afford to lose customers over this.