I have met Evan a couple of times. He has been nothing but nice to not only me but those who visited his table. My general thought many years ago was how excited I was to have a public figure in our industry promoting collecting cards. I could not be more disappointed in what I am seeing. I am not totally shocked that he is altering cards, but I am really amazed that he would put out a video showing how to do it. Not only is he ruining the hobby but he is bragging about doing it.
Evan, if you are reading this, I hope you understand that many of the collecting community does not live in mansions. Most collectors would be considered blessed to have a five figure checking accounts. Lastly, most all collectors work their tales off just to bring food home for their families. To buy a $500 card would be a challenge in some cases for most. You just posted a video showing how to doctor cards for the whole world to see, which hurts the backbone of our great hobby. It hurts the collector, the hobby and your reputation.
Shane Leonard
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
Not only is he illustrating just how despicable he is, He just recorded and posted how to doctor cards 101 for all of the other disreputable people out there.
@craig44 said:
Not only is he illustrating just how despicable he is, He just recorded and posted how to doctor cards 101 for all of the other disreputable people out there.
@fergie23 said:
If you have high grade vintage cards many of them are trimmed/sheet cut. Heck, if you have high grade modern cards, some of those have been trimmed/altered as well. I figured at this point everyone basically knew this already.
.
Robb
What brings you to this conclusion? There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. A summary of what the BODA forums have detected yields a few examples of each key card in various grades. I'm not oblivious to the fact it is going on and is a concern but to say many of them are trimmed is a stretch. I myself have submitted many thousands of vintage cards over the years that graded about 70% PSA 8 or higher and trimmed none of them.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
@fergie23 said:
If you have high grade vintage cards many of them are trimmed/sheet cut. Heck, if you have high grade modern cards, some of those have been trimmed/altered as well. I figured at this point everyone basically knew this already.
.
Robb
What brings you to this conclusion? There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. A summary of what the BODA forums have detected yields a few examples of each key card in various grades. I'm not oblivious to the fact it is going on and is a concern but to say many of them are trimmed is a stretch. I myself have submitted many thousands of vintage cards over the years that graded about 70% PSA 8 or higher and trimmed none of them.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
I'm a bit surprised at your take here.
It's always been the high profile cards that have been altered, why waste your time on a common.
In fact there are allegations that the highest profile card, the PSA 8 Wagner might be sheet cut.
I doubt anyone here would toss it in the garbage if they owned it and found out it was cut from a sheet/strip of cards.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Curious to people’s perceptions of what percentage of say 50’s Topps PSA 8 or higher are in holders. I am in the camp it is a significant problem but not the norm. My wild guess is maybe 5-7%. Could be naive and way low where those in the know would laugh at me. I could be clouded by all the bad apples and be way high based on all the outed names, the When it Was a Game scandal, the PWCC scandal, previous known issues with Evan, many others I have read about (but not able to source in the Mainstream news through BODA).
@fergie23 said:
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Your faith in PSA is a little misplaced.
Robb
Exactly. There is a hockey seller up North, who you will be aware of, that has gotten hundreds, likely thousands of sheet cut key cards into slabs. Key cards from sets like 74 OPC that just simply don't come out of a pack 50/50 centered. New cards getting posted every week.
Exactly. There is a hockey seller up North, who you will be aware of, that has gotten hundreds, likely thousands of sheet cut key cards into slabs. Key cards from sets like 74 OPC that just simply don't come out of a pack 50/50 centered. New cards getting posted every week.
I used to have a 1979 OPC Gretzky PSA 7.5 that had a very clean cut. Centering was a little off but that card design is forgiving in terms of eye appeal. I heard about that Canadian dealer and i knew my card actually came from the large Toronto show. I got very nervous and ended up trading the card for a PSA 7 with the traditional rough cut and few other hockey cards. This is one case where I don't mind the rough cut. I still had it reholdered to double check.
@fergie23 said:
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Your faith in PSA is a little misplaced.
Robb
I wouldn't say I have too much faith in PSA. I carefully check each non low $ common I purchase by inspecting the card, how big it is in the holder and the sales history to see who first sold it. With a little due diligence, you can greatly reduce your chance of getting a bad card. So far I've checked a few hundred cards from the BODA outed list and none are in my collection. I'm sure I over reject good cards but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
A full sized, no tilt and centered 1969 Topps can be tough to find. When I was growing up, a guy told me he believed at least 40% of the population was trimmed, not due to bad intent but by kids in 1969 who were frustrated by crooked and off center cards!
That’s why I love this one…
…especially the way it’s jammed against the rails.
With its overall aesthetic (and a PSA 9 selling for a shade under a million in the last year), it’s probably one of my better Mantle’s.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
A full sized, no tilt and centered 1969 Topps can be tough to find. When I was growing up, a guy told me he believed at least 40% of the population was trimmed, not due to bad intent but by kids in 1969 who were frustrated by crooked and off center cards!
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
@brad31 said:
Curious to people’s perceptions of what percentage of say 50’s Topps PSA 8 or higher are in holders. I am in the camp it is a significant problem but not the norm. My wild guess is maybe 5-7%. Could be naive and way low where those in the know would laugh at me. I could be clouded by all the bad apples and be way high based on all the outed names, the When it Was a Game scandal, the PWCC scandal, previous known issues with Evan, many others I have read about (but not able to source in the Mainstream news through BODA).
With using your estimate of 5-7% say at 100,000 cards that would still leave 5,000/7,000 cards out there contaminating the market. Not a problem for the majority, just as long as one does not fall into/get taken in the 5,000/7,000 range.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I am impressed that the moderators have let this thread live instead of "trimming it" from the site. Thanks for letting us have a conversation that massively impacts our ability to enjoy the hobby and our PSA collections.
PSA has set out strict criteria for what type of cards are able to have numerical grades. I started buying PSA graded cards over other TPG's based on my preference for unaltered cards. I still don't want altered cards in my collection, so have used all publicly available information about card doctors to apply my own filter on what PSA cards to buy or pass on. It has made it tougher to navigate the marketplace.
Vintage card trimming and doctoring may be passable to the naked eye, but certainly there is technology now to build card databases of known legit card dimensions and edges that can help TPG's weed out the altered cards that have been cut from sheets or trimmed.
Also, to add an example to the end of a previous post...
@fergie23 said:
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Your faith in PSA is a little misplaced.
Robb
Exactly. There is a hockey seller up North, who you will be aware of, that has gotten hundreds, likely thousands of sheet cut key cards into slabs. Key cards from sets like 74 OPC that just simply don't come out of a pack 50/50 centered. New cards getting posted every week.
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
I can understand that but responding in this fashion is certainly not helping his case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
Thanks for posting this, showing what a tool that guy is.
He definitely sounds pretty scorned that he can't grade with PSA anymore. After listening to this podcast and seeing those TT videos I really think he's just trolling the hobby with his card trimming clip. Then showing off all of his sheets in the other video came off like... "I could trim these and you'd never know."
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
Thanks for posting this, showing what a tool that guy is.
He definitely sounds pretty scorned that he can't grade with PSA anymore. After listening to this podcast and seeing those TT videos I really think he's just trolling the hobby with his card trimming clip. Then showing off all of his sheets in the other video came off like... "I could trim these and you'd never know."
I don't understand why he would be blaming PSA. It's like robbing from a store repeatedly and then complaining that they won't let you shop there anymore.
@Frozencaribou said:
I am impressed that the moderators have let this thread live instead of "trimming it" from the site. Thanks for letting us have a conversation that massively impacts our ability to enjoy the hobby and our PSA collections.
PSA has set out strict criteria for what type of cards are able to have numerical grades. I started buying PSA graded cards over other TPG's based on my preference for unaltered cards. I still don't want altered cards in my collection, so have used all publicly available information about card doctors to apply my own filter on what PSA cards to buy or pass on. It has made it tougher to navigate the marketplace.
Vintage card trimming and doctoring may be passable to the naked eye, but certainly there is technology now to build card databases of known legit card dimensions and edges that can help TPG's weed out the altered cards that have been cut from sheets or trimmed.
Also, to add an example to the end of a previous post...
@fergie23 said:
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Your faith in PSA is a little misplaced.
Robb
Exactly. There is a hockey seller up North, who you will be aware of, that has gotten hundreds, likely thousands of sheet cut key cards into slabs. Key cards from sets like 74 OPC that just simply don't come out of a pack 50/50 centered. New cards getting posted every week.
Yes, that Cherry is a great example. He also had a Dryden, Shutt, etc all perfectly centered that clearly came from the same sheet.
Also right after I posted, a perfectly centered, razor corners 86 OPC Roy from same seller popped up. Looked like a 10 but likely had some surface issues. I'd bet I know where that card came from.
I listened to the podcast. I didn’t think he was hard on PSA, he talks about all the trimmers that PSA has banned, and that Nat has a good hold on that aspect. He wants to be able to submit again FWIW.
He does reinforce the idea that the doctors have been working cards for decades, they are very good at it, and that detection is difficult. I’ve heard this from many vet collectors and agree.
He says assume all card are trimmed (making a point) and he doesn’t seem to be bothered by altered cards, says it is so entrenched that at this point getting worked up about it is a waste of time. Says if it matters to you, learn to spot altered cards yourself, know issues. Which is kind of what I was saying above, I don’t need a tpg to tell me that Cherry comes from a sheet.
He is clearly trolling and says as much, I think him shining a light on this isn’t the worst thing.
@80sOPC said:
I listened to the podcast. I didn’t think he was hard on PSA, he talks about all the trimmers that PSA has banned, and that Nat has a good hold on that aspect. He wants to be able to submit again FWIW.
He does reinforce the idea that the doctors have been working cards for decades, they are very good at it, and that detection is difficult. I’ve heard this from many vet collectors and agree.
He says assume all card are trimmed (making a point) and he doesn’t seem to be bothered by altered cards, says it is so entrenched that at this point getting worked up about it is a waste of time. Says if it matters to you, learn to spot altered cards yourself, know issues. Which is kind of what I was saying above, I don’t need a tpg to tell me that Cherry comes from a sheet.
He is clearly trolling and says as much, I think him shining a light on this isn’t the worst thing.
PWCC had this same exact stance when it was discovered they were doing what Evan was/is doing.
Basically, everyone adopts this stance on some level when they’re looking for a way out of feeling guilty.
I find it ironic that he’s basically saying don’t buy from me, right? All cards are trimmed, I trim cards, if you don’t want trimmed cards, educate yourself on what to look for. Isn’t it implied to stay away from known card trimmers?
Noted.
😂😂😂
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Maybe the trimming and enhancement is the product//price of unrealistic expectations... most collectors expect perfect corners and centering that
Card collecting 55-65 years ago was simply different. Cards were handled- stored sleeveless in shoe boxes with rubber bands often around groups of cards separated by teams or whatever...
I think there is something to be said for owning card that looks as if it survived the era in which it was made. Cards were made for kids and to be fun- that ship sailed many moons ago.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@80sOPC said:
I listened to the podcast. I didn’t think he was hard on PSA, he talks about all the trimmers that PSA has banned, and that Nat has a good hold on that aspect. He wants to be able to submit again FWIW.
He does reinforce the idea that the doctors have been working cards for decades, they are very good at it, and that detection is difficult. I’ve heard this from many vet collectors and agree.
He says assume all card are trimmed (making a point) and he doesn’t seem to be bothered by altered cards, says it is so entrenched that at this point getting worked up about it is a waste of time. Says if it matters to you, learn to spot altered cards yourself, know issues. Which is kind of what I was saying above, I don’t need a tpg to tell me that Cherry comes from a sheet.
He is clearly trolling and says as much, I think him shining a light on this isn’t the worst thing.
PWCC had this same exact stance when it was discovered they were doing what Evan was/is doing.
Basically, everyone adopts this stance on some level when they’re looking for a way out of feeling guilty.
I find it ironic that he’s basically saying don’t buy from me, right? All cards are trimmed, I trim cards, if you don’t want trimmed cards, educate yourself on what to look for. Isn’t it implied to stay away from known card trimmers?
Noted.
😂😂😂
This is my take based on the interview and the TT vids. If you listen towards the end of the interview, he mentioned doing the card improvement "at scale" but implies he was stopped by the PSA ban. You combine that with the card sheet vid and it's clear to me what he was planning to do. They talked about using group subs to hide his id, but I think he would have a tough time trying pass 100 PSA 10 1994 Finest Jordans through any sub method.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I find it ironic that he’s basically saying don’t buy from me, right? All cards are trimmed, I trim cards, if you don’t want trimmed cards, educate yourself on what to look for. Isn’t it implied to stay away from known card trimmers?
Noted.
😂😂😂
How do you plan to stay away from known card trimmers? Therein lies the problem. Save for avoiding high end, how do you know cards are altered?
Best way is to know the issue, how wide the borders should be, how the card is typically cut.
Cards cone through my eBay feed everyday that are easily spotted as worked. There is one in this thread above. If you care about altered cards - and lets be real, most chasing high end don’t really, that Cherry will sell- then know the issue. Seems like good advice.
For the record I’m not making excuses for Mathis, the whole card doctor stuff almost pushed me out of the hobby. Then I realized who cares, do the best to buy stuff that looks right, and let others play the ultra high end game. So vids and interviews like his, in that context, are helpful to me.
@grote15 said:
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
Thanks for posting this, showing what a tool that guy is.
He definitely sounds pretty scorned that he can't grade with PSA anymore. After listening to this podcast and seeing those TT videos I really think he's just trolling the hobby with his card trimming clip. Then showing off all of his sheets in the other video came off like... "I could trim these and you'd never know."
I don't understand why he would be blaming PSA. It's like robbing from a store repeatedly and then complaining that they won't let you shop there anymore.
I totally agree. When I said he felt scorned it wasn't meant to mean he blames PSA, he just came off as a guy who sounds like he really wants to grade his own cards but can't wiithout going through a 3rd party. He's in this situation through his own actions and nobody should feel sorry for him, I certainly don't.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I find it ironic that he’s basically saying don’t buy from me, right? All cards are trimmed, I trim cards, if you don’t want trimmed cards, educate yourself on what to look for. Isn’t it implied to stay away from known card trimmers?
Noted.
😂😂😂
How do you plan to stay away from known card trimmers? Therein lies the problem. Save for avoiding high end, how do you know cards are altered?
Best way is to know the issue, how wide the borders should be, how the card is typically cut.
Cards cone through my eBay feed everyday that are easily spotted as worked. There is one in this thread above. If you care about altered cards - and lets be real, most chasing high end don’t really, that Cherry will sell- then know the issue. Seems like good advice.
For the record I’m not making excuses for Mathis, the whole card doctor stuff almost pushed me out of the hobby. Then I realized who cares, do the best to buy stuff that looks right, and let others play the ultra high end game. So vids and interviews like his, in that context, are helpful to me.
1) When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
2) Chase relationships as much as cards and be a good customer; remember it goes both ways.
3) Buy raw and holder it yourself. That’s what I try to do, anyway…
They’ve all got a little wear, for sure, but they’re all full size. Measured by me, then submitted to PSA.
Not a perfect system, I know, but it’s what works for my needs.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
Also, perhaps if you were a seller that specializes in high quality vintage raw card sales (eBay or otherwise) - step one of your process I’d assume would be having a guy like this on staff. Not saying it’s right (it’s not) - but seems a likely thing.
@RonSportscards said:
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
@RonSportscards said:
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
@RonSportscards said:
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
On only 1 side?
Not sure why it looks that way, but depending on the scanner I’ve seen that a lot. Look at all of the 4SC scans, they often have it.
@RonSportscards said:
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
On only 1 side?
The left side of the card is up against the left side bracket giving it the appearance of "angling" above and below that bracket. It doesn't show on the other side because the card is not up against the side bracket on that side.
@RonSportscards said:
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
On only 1 side?
Not sure why it looks that way, but depending on the scanner I’ve seen that a lot. Look at all of the 4SC scans, they often have it.
I found this quite amusing even if you didn't intentionally mean to accuse 4SC of trimming.
@jraytay said:
I watched the video. If submitted to PSA for grading I would bet it wouldn't take them very long to grade this authentic/altered or do not holder.
You're joking right? You need to get onto the other forums and see just hope prevalent this is.
The computer enhanced methods of grading that PSA is incorporating will detect these types of submissions.
@jraytay said:
I watched the video. If submitted to PSA for grading I would bet it wouldn't take them very long to grade this authentic/altered or do not holder.
You're joking right? You need to get onto the other forums and see just hope prevalent this is.
The computer enhanced methods of grading that PSA is incorporating will detect these types of submissions.
If so we will all have to pay to re-grade as people will want only the computer enhanced known non-trimmed cards. PSA will be paying out significant dollars on their guarantee which would be recouped with the new fees.
I don’t think they will do this. Easier just to maintain the status quo. Time will tell.
Comments
bust out the cards you pulled from packs as a kid, think about how much they meant to you for countless years, and take note of their condition.
Of course Evan has a man bun.
I have met Evan a couple of times. He has been nothing but nice to not only me but those who visited his table. My general thought many years ago was how excited I was to have a public figure in our industry promoting collecting cards. I could not be more disappointed in what I am seeing. I am not totally shocked that he is altering cards, but I am really amazed that he would put out a video showing how to do it. Not only is he ruining the hobby but he is bragging about doing it.
Evan, if you are reading this, I hope you understand that many of the collecting community does not live in mansions. Most collectors would be considered blessed to have a five figure checking accounts. Lastly, most all collectors work their tales off just to bring food home for their families. To buy a $500 card would be a challenge in some cases for most. You just posted a video showing how to doctor cards for the whole world to see, which hurts the backbone of our great hobby. It hurts the collector, the hobby and your reputation.
Shane Leonard
Not only is he illustrating just how despicable he is, He just recorded and posted how to doctor cards 101 for all of the other disreputable people out there.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
hey craig44,
That was Perfectly Typed...
.
What brings you to this conclusion? There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. A summary of what the BODA forums have detected yields a few examples of each key card in various grades. I'm not oblivious to the fact it is going on and is a concern but to say many of them are trimmed is a stretch. I myself have submitted many thousands of vintage cards over the years that graded about 70% PSA 8 or higher and trimmed none of them.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
I'm a bit surprised at your take here.
It's always been the high profile cards that have been altered, why waste your time on a common.
In fact there are allegations that the highest profile card, the PSA 8 Wagner might be sheet cut.
I doubt anyone here would toss it in the garbage if they owned it and found out it was cut from a sheet/strip of cards.
_There are certainly trimmed cards that found their way into holders but it is still a small percentage of the overall population. _
I know of dealers that turned uncut sheets into dozens and dozens of PSA 9 & 10 vintage cards.
Many of the biggest PSA submitters were implicated in the 75 mini trimming scandal. Believing that those submitters were only trimming 75 minis would be naive.
While it might be a small part of the overall population, I think it is more significant than you believe for high grade cards.
If people watch Evan's video and start trimming and submitting high profile cards like Mantles, they will likely go to experienced graders and the submitters will be gravely disappointed in the submission results.
Your faith in PSA is a little misplaced.
Robb
Curious to people’s perceptions of what percentage of say 50’s Topps PSA 8 or higher are in holders. I am in the camp it is a significant problem but not the norm. My wild guess is maybe 5-7%. Could be naive and way low where those in the know would laugh at me. I could be clouded by all the bad apples and be way high based on all the outed names, the When it Was a Game scandal, the PWCC scandal, previous known issues with Evan, many others I have read about (but not able to source in the Mainstream news through BODA).
Exactly. There is a hockey seller up North, who you will be aware of, that has gotten hundreds, likely thousands of sheet cut key cards into slabs. Key cards from sets like 74 OPC that just simply don't come out of a pack 50/50 centered. New cards getting posted every week.
I used to have a 1979 OPC Gretzky PSA 7.5 that had a very clean cut. Centering was a little off but that card design is forgiving in terms of eye appeal. I heard about that Canadian dealer and i knew my card actually came from the large Toronto show. I got very nervous and ended up trading the card for a PSA 7 with the traditional rough cut and few other hockey cards. This is one case where I don't mind the rough cut. I still had it reholdered to double check.
Cool 99...
I wouldn't say I have too much faith in PSA. I carefully check each non low $ common I purchase by inspecting the card, how big it is in the holder and the sales history to see who first sold it. With a little due diligence, you can greatly reduce your chance of getting a bad card. So far I've checked a few hundred cards from the BODA outed list and none are in my collection. I'm sure I over reject good cards but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
A full sized, no tilt and centered 1969 Topps can be tough to find. When I was growing up, a guy told me he believed at least 40% of the population was trimmed, not due to bad intent but by kids in 1969 who were frustrated by crooked and off center cards!
That’s why I love this one…
…especially the way it’s jammed against the rails.
With its overall aesthetic (and a PSA 9 selling for a shade under a million in the last year), it’s probably one of my better Mantle’s.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I just don't understand what there is to gain here (other than attracting attention) by making a video like this or engaging in this kind of activity. As a collector and someone who appreciates the hobby, I can't fathom what the upside is for someone who obviously has been more fortunate in life than the vast majority of his fellow collectors.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
hey 51Wheaties,
Pretty cool Mick...
I heard Evan's interview on the Ringer. I think he has a beef with Nat Turner and PSA about being banned as a submitter. He was pumping the "new" SGC a little.
With using your estimate of 5-7% say at 100,000 cards that would still leave 5,000/7,000 cards out there contaminating the market. Not a problem for the majority, just as long as one does not fall into/get taken in the 5,000/7,000 range.
I am impressed that the moderators have let this thread live instead of "trimming it" from the site. Thanks for letting us have a conversation that massively impacts our ability to enjoy the hobby and our PSA collections.
PSA has set out strict criteria for what type of cards are able to have numerical grades. I started buying PSA graded cards over other TPG's based on my preference for unaltered cards. I still don't want altered cards in my collection, so have used all publicly available information about card doctors to apply my own filter on what PSA cards to buy or pass on. It has made it tougher to navigate the marketplace.
Vintage card trimming and doctoring may be passable to the naked eye, but certainly there is technology now to build card databases of known legit card dimensions and edges that can help TPG's weed out the altered cards that have been cut from sheets or trimmed.
Also, to add an example to the end of a previous post...
Case in point-
https://ebay.ca/itm/285258575634?hash=item426abc6f12:g:zewAAOSwlhJkTBwy
I haven't listened to this yet but here's the interview for anyone wanting to listen to it.
https://www.theringer.com/2023/5/4/23711859/confronting-former-nfl-player-guard-evan-mathis-about-the-hidden-world-of-sports-cards-trimming
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I can understand that but responding in this fashion is certainly not helping his case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thanks for posting this, showing what a tool that guy is.
He definitely sounds pretty scorned that he can't grade with PSA anymore. After listening to this podcast and seeing those TT videos I really think he's just trolling the hobby with his card trimming clip. Then showing off all of his sheets in the other video came off like... "I could trim these and you'd never know."
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I don't understand why he would be blaming PSA. It's like robbing from a store repeatedly and then complaining that they won't let you shop there anymore.
Yes, that Cherry is a great example. He also had a Dryden, Shutt, etc all perfectly centered that clearly came from the same sheet.
Also right after I posted, a perfectly centered, razor corners 86 OPC Roy from same seller popped up. Looked like a 10 but likely had some surface issues. I'd bet I know where that card came from.
I listened to the podcast. I didn’t think he was hard on PSA, he talks about all the trimmers that PSA has banned, and that Nat has a good hold on that aspect. He wants to be able to submit again FWIW.
He does reinforce the idea that the doctors have been working cards for decades, they are very good at it, and that detection is difficult. I’ve heard this from many vet collectors and agree.
He says assume all card are trimmed (making a point) and he doesn’t seem to be bothered by altered cards, says it is so entrenched that at this point getting worked up about it is a waste of time. Says if it matters to you, learn to spot altered cards yourself, know issues. Which is kind of what I was saying above, I don’t need a tpg to tell me that Cherry comes from a sheet.
He is clearly trolling and says as much, I think him shining a light on this isn’t the worst thing.
PWCC had this same exact stance when it was discovered they were doing what Evan was/is doing.
Basically, everyone adopts this stance on some level when they’re looking for a way out of feeling guilty.
I find it ironic that he’s basically saying don’t buy from me, right? All cards are trimmed, I trim cards, if you don’t want trimmed cards, educate yourself on what to look for. Isn’t it implied to stay away from known card trimmers?
Noted.
😂😂😂
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Maybe the trimming and enhancement is the product//price of unrealistic expectations... most collectors expect perfect corners and centering that
Card collecting 55-65 years ago was simply different. Cards were handled- stored sleeveless in shoe boxes with rubber bands often around groups of cards separated by teams or whatever...
I think there is something to be said for owning card that looks as if it survived the era in which it was made. Cards were made for kids and to be fun- that ship sailed many moons ago.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
This is my take based on the interview and the TT vids. If you listen towards the end of the interview, he mentioned doing the card improvement "at scale" but implies he was stopped by the PSA ban. You combine that with the card sheet vid and it's clear to me what he was planning to do. They talked about using group subs to hide his id, but I think he would have a tough time trying pass 100 PSA 10 1994 Finest Jordans through any sub method.
How do you plan to stay away from known card trimmers? Therein lies the problem. Save for avoiding high end, how do you know cards are altered?
Best way is to know the issue, how wide the borders should be, how the card is typically cut.
Cards cone through my eBay feed everyday that are easily spotted as worked. There is one in this thread above. If you care about altered cards - and lets be real, most chasing high end don’t really, that Cherry will sell- then know the issue. Seems like good advice.
For the record I’m not making excuses for Mathis, the whole card doctor stuff almost pushed me out of the hobby. Then I realized who cares, do the best to buy stuff that looks right, and let others play the ultra high end game. So vids and interviews like his, in that context, are helpful to me.
I totally agree. When I said he felt scorned it wasn't meant to mean he blames PSA, he just came off as a guy who sounds like he really wants to grade his own cards but can't wiithout going through a 3rd party. He's in this situation through his own actions and nobody should feel sorry for him, I certainly don't.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Have fun collecting!
1) When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
2) Chase relationships as much as cards and be a good customer; remember it goes both ways.
3) Buy raw and holder it yourself. That’s what I try to do, anyway…
They’ve all got a little wear, for sure, but they’re all full size. Measured by me, then submitted to PSA.
Not a perfect system, I know, but it’s what works for my needs.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
hey 51Wheaties...
Awesome Mickey's you have...I'd be proud of those...
….
This recent Ebay sale looks off.
Upper and lower left hand corners look trimmed. (Left side straight then corners angled inward).
Very generous early graded 8, with unappealing print blobs. Looks pretty short too.
Sold for well below comps, so others noticed it too.
Also, perhaps if you were a seller that specializes in high quality vintage raw card sales (eBay or otherwise) - step one of your process I’d assume would be having a guy like this on staff. Not saying it’s right (it’s not) - but seems a likely thing.
My collecting blog: http://ctcard.wordpress.com
I think the corners “angling inward” is just the 2-D manifestation of vending curl….
On only 1 side?
Not sure why it looks that way, but depending on the scanner I’ve seen that a lot. Look at all of the 4SC scans, they often have it.
Your original post was better.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Nah, don’t want to be “that guy” ’arguing on the internet. We we saying similar things anyways, know your cards.
I don’t follow 75s, do they usually look that short in the holder? That thing isn’t even close.
Oh stop, who trims a 75 Cey with print defects. Look under another rock. Maybe a 63 Mantle or something. Not a 75 Cey
Maybe the same guy that submits a 75 Cey with print spots?
Gotta start somewhere, Evan.
Then you can graduate to the Mantles.
Counterfeit $10 bills, not $100s, if you're bad at it.
The left side of the card is up against the left side bracket giving it the appearance of "angling" above and below that bracket. It doesn't show on the other side because the card is not up against the side bracket on that side.
I found this quite amusing even if you didn't intentionally mean to accuse 4SC of trimming.
Everyone eventually wakes up!
The computer enhanced methods of grading that PSA is incorporating will detect these types of submissions.
4SC > @jraytay said:
If so we will all have to pay to re-grade as people will want only the computer enhanced known non-trimmed cards. PSA will be paying out significant dollars on their guarantee which would be recouped with the new fees.
I don’t think they will do this. Easier just to maintain the status quo. Time will tell.