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Thoughts on this card doctoring video

Have you guys seen this video put out by Evan Mathis showing his card doctoring techniques?

https://www.tiktok.com/@evanmathis69/video/7226840015920319790

Brian

«13

Comments

  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 9:54AM

    I seen that vid yesterday...Very Informative Video on: How To Take A Card Villain's Pathway To Hell...

  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the most interesting vid (for me) on TikTok. Yes I am old and boring

    Mike
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What in the world!?!?!?!

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • BJY83BJY83 Posts: 242 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 10:33AM

    Last time i posted a comment about Evan doctoring cards, I was threatened by the mod with a ban. I'm curious to see PSA's response to this now.

    Brian

  • jraytayjraytay Posts: 105 ✭✭

    I watched the video. If submitted to PSA for grading I would bet it wouldn't take them very long to grade this authentic/altered or do not holder.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am in the middle of cutting cards from full sheets and parts of his process are informative.
    I'm betting there's a LOT of "doctored" cards in our collections.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • BJY83BJY83 Posts: 242 ✭✭✭

    @jraytay said:
    I watched the video. If submitted to PSA for grading I would bet it wouldn't take them very long to grade this authentic/altered or do not holder.

    You're joking right? You need to get onto the other forums and see just hope prevalent this is.

    Brian

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ain't nobody got time for all that bruh.

    -D Young

  • gorilla glue 4gorilla glue 4 Posts: 105 ✭✭✭

    @BJY83 said:
    Last time i posted a comment about Evan doctoring cards, I was threatened by the mod with a ban. I'm curious to see PSA's response to this now.

    The mod was placed on waivers and given his unconditional release last week.

  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the card/slab doctor threads have popped up on this board many times over the years. each time there was a small, but vocal, "this is the end of TPG" crowd,

    At this point, it's all baked in the hobby. The WIWAG scandal that occurred a long time ago scared me enough to reholder my entire collection. Thank God it was cheap then compared to today.

    If one of my key cards are trimmed, there is nothing I can do about it now. This is completely a gut feeling, but based on Evan's video, how many cards are really candidates for a successful trim? It looks like they need to be oversized, is that common to see oversized vintage cards?

    Mike
  • brad31brad31 Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 7:12PM

    I am sure I have doctored cards - but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t all punish the card doctors and make sure their name is known for those that follow the hobby. It is a shame it never seems to put dealers out of business - but before every National I mark off the tables I know I need to avoid.

  • swish54swish54 Posts: 684 ✭✭✭✭

    I like how he says multiple times to be careful so you don't damage the card....while he's in the process of damaging the card... :o

  • RufussCkingstonRufussCkingston Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭✭

    So looks like instead of min-size cards, we need max+ size cards so we can trim the fat!

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ndleo said:
    It looks like they need to be oversized, is that common to see oversized vintage cards?

    >
    Yes, fairly common.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @ndleo said:
    It looks like they need to be oversized, is that common to see oversized vintage cards?

    >
    Yes, fairly common.

    It is and you can see it perfectly anytime you open a vending from the 70s or early 80s. I've had so many cards returned from PSA for Min Size that were straight out of the pack.

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 596 ✭✭✭

    Honestly, I'm not against if someone can improve their grade by a few points by improving an oversized card.

    Altering a card that was oversized seems fine by me. Are people against making a less than perfect card look perfect only because they pass through inspection and are not labeled as altered? Guess I'd be happy to have a 52 Mantle rookie psa9, altered without me or the grading company catching it, and wouldn't pay more for an identical graded card I knew was unaltered.

    I may have just alienated myself from a few of you guys but if you're admitting you likely have some of these without knowing then I'm not sure why it matters.

    My only thought is that people don't want populations to increase and potentially devalue what they believe is a better version of the card.

    I'd imagine there's something more I'm not considering which upsets people. If this guy admits he does it then do we expect him to acknowledge it was altered when submitted?

    Call me crazy but I don't think the person paying top dollar for an extremely rare card in pristine condition will care what it looked like before as long as it's on par, or better, to the best already out there.

  • mrmoparmrmopar Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭✭

    It is interesting how in so many other business/collectible arenas, restoration is accepted/allowed, but in trading cards it is not. Restored automobiles may not be as desirable as all original ones, but restored cars do sell well.

    Greed drove us here though and if grading companies were once here to help detect this fraud, now seem to be driving the desire in crooks to get those high grades (if they can successfully fool the grading company), in order to cash in on the high grade premiums. At one point, kids may have trimmed cards to make them look better just because, but it has come to meticulously trimming cards by fractions of inches with the intent to deceive and artificially inflate prices.

    I collect Steve Garvey, Dodgers and signed cards. Collector since 1978.
  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 596 ✭✭✭

    Granted I'm not a vintage guy so I don't count anyways, but I would be fine if somebody buffed and polished, steam cleaned interior to remove stains, and touched up an original vehicle.

    I'm not sure of a good analogy to the trimming aspect but the erasing and adding gloss seems similar to cut/buff and then waxing a car.

    If they sold it raw then you would want full disclosure that it was altered, I can get that, and somebody lying is where I would then draw the line.

    I don't see a solution to the issue because it seems a remarkable job was done. If somebody is cutting a sheet then is it expected the card should be graded as altered 100% of the time?

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,438 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 8:24PM

    @craig44 said:
    What in the world!?!?!?!

    I second that.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • RonSportscardsRonSportscards Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭

    @JolleyWrencher said:
    If somebody is cutting a sheet then is it expected the card should be graded as altered 100% of the time?

    It should. Or at least some designation like 'Hand cut'. Anything other than original leaving the manufacturer.

    >
    >

    @mrmopar said:
    It is interesting how in so many other business/collectible arenas, restoration is accepted/allowed, but in trading cards it is not. Restored automobiles may not be as desirable as all original ones, but restored cars do sell well.

    Agreed. It is interesting what is or isn't accepted.

    Restoring a painting is usually beneficial and encouraged, although usually disclosed as such.
    But clean your antique brass or silver heirloom to look like new, destroying the original patina, and you killed the value.

    Now here's where it gets sketchy.
    Both top coin grading services, PCGS and NGC, offer "Professional cleaning".
    Clean your coins yourself and PCGS and NGC can label your coins as cleaned.
    Use their service to "Preserve Your Coins' Originality" (What?) and they will then grade it with no designation that it was cleaned or restored.
    What happens with PSA or SGC gets into the card restoration business?

  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I wonder why Evan would post this? What could possibly be the benefit to him? It sure seems he has alienated at least half
    of his possible buyer pool. I know I would NEVER purchase anything directly from him or any card with provenance linked to him.

    What a tool.

    Didn't he sell most of his collection?

    Mike
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ndleo said:

    @craig44 said:
    I wonder why Evan would post this? What could possibly be the benefit to him? It sure seems he has alienated at least half
    of his possible buyer pool. I know I would NEVER purchase anything directly from him or any card with provenance linked to him.

    What a tool.

    Didn't he sell most of his collection?

    good question. I know he used to buy and sell quite actively. not sure of his position in the hobby currently.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • PorkinsPorkins Posts: 604 ✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 5:08AM

    Unfortunately, I sold a couple BGS 9 Trout Updates to him quite a few years back. I’m very curious in what slabs they now reside.

    He doesn’t appear to be banned here, be a pal and let me know what you might’ve sliced and diced them into, Evan.

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 596 ✭✭✭

    If you've worked for a card grading company then I imagine you gain some insight into the limitations of identifying altered cards. Maybe the change to grading has created an uptick in altering since there is no longer a 10 (oc) option.

    I'm on the fence about it. If I was working on a vintage set then I'm not sure I would care if they looked perfect to the experienced graders. At the end of the day, I want the best looking cards, I don't want the cards that made it's way into the pack that has part of another card printed on it. It's probably a different conversation entirely but there's a lot of cards I've seen that I don't think should have made it out the door. I don't think what I just said has any relevancy since the video is altering a decent card to begin with.

    I am honestly impressed with his finished product. Sorry if that's a disgraceful comment to read.

    I think I'm on an island here. Am I the only one who would rather have the card after it was messed with than before? Side by side...you can really see the improved look...

    I think it's only cheating if the grading company has a check box to say "this has not been altered" and you don't check it. Are there official rules or is it unofficial rules/standards the collector community have established to say he is cheating?

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 5:47AM

    @JolleyWrencher said:

    I think I'm on an island here. Am I the only one who would rather have the card after it was messed with than before? Side by side...you can really see the improved look...

    I would rather have neither of them.

  • JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 596 ✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:

    @JolleyWrencher said:

    I think I'm on an island here. Am I the only one who would rather have the card after it was messed with than before? Side by side...you can really see the improved look...

    I would rather have neither of them.

    That was a darn good answer! 👍
    Give me time...I'm still wet behind the ears as my friends mom would say.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JolleyWrencher said:
    If you've worked for a card grading company then I imagine you gain some insight into the limitations of identifying altered cards. Maybe the change to grading has created an uptick in altering since there is no longer a 10 (oc) option.

    I'm on the fence about it. If I was working on a vintage set then I'm not sure I would care if they looked perfect to the experienced graders. At the end of the day, I want the best looking cards, I don't want the cards that made it's way into the pack that has part of another card printed on it. It's probably a different conversation entirely but there's a lot of cards I've seen that I don't think should have made it out the door. I don't think what I just said has any relevancy since the video is altering a decent card to begin with.

    I am honestly impressed with his finished product. Sorry if that's a disgraceful comment to read.

    I think I'm on an island here. Am I the only one who would rather have the card after it was messed with than before? Side by side...you can really see the improved look...

    I think it's only cheating if the grading company has a check box to say "this has not been altered" and you don't check it. Are there official rules or is it unofficial rules/standards the collector community have established to say he is cheating?

    First, I’ll address the bold: This is actually part of the Terms and Conditions when you submit. You literally check a box that says you are not submitting knowingly fake or altered material - cards, autographs, photos - anything you submit.

    Are you on an island? Yes. But don’t worry, it’s not unpopulated. People just think it is because most people who hold your opinion that live their usually remain silent.

    Everyone has their own opinions on what constitutes altering a card but I think once you start to veer into trimming the card you pass the point of no return; it is a very conscious and typically money driven alteration.

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,109 ✭✭✭✭✭


    I'm betting if you get a card back from a 3PG company as oversized, unable to grade, and the card is worth thousands of dollars, most people would consider getting it cut to the proper size.

    One of the very first cards I purchased (before grading companies even existed,) was a 1962 Twins Team card, high number and of course 1962's are tough.
    I bragged about the card to a local card shop owner, and when I told him who I got it from, he informed me that the seller was a guy who "rolled and trimmed" his cards.
    "WHAT?" He said the seller rolled cards, making them a little bigger and then trimmed the edges. Card looked perfect to me.
    A few years later, PSA arrived on the scene and it came back a 9. There's no way of me knowing if the seller "fixed" the card and at this point I don't care.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I actually don't care as long as it ends up the correct size for the card and passes authentication for a grade. If it's good enough for art restoration then it's good enough here.

    If a card comes out of the factory too long and it gets 'cleaned up' by an individual into the exact correct size with beautiful corners then I'm OK with that. Doesn't matter to me if it gets to its condition by the factory or someone later as long as it's still correct size, etc...

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BBBrkrr said:
    I actually don't care as long as it ends up the correct size for the card and passes authentication for a grade. If it's good enough for art restoration then it's good enough here.

    If a card comes out of the factory too long and it gets 'cleaned up' by an individual into the exact correct size with beautiful corners then I'm OK with that. Doesn't matter to me if it gets to its condition by the factory or someone later as long as it's still correct size, etc...

    Well…if I didn’t know the card had been “worked on” and I liked the way it looked, I would be OK with it. However, if I found out that it had been verifiably trimmed, I would stop being OK with it 😁

  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,058 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 8:53AM

    Using the classic car analogy, trimming a card and trying to sell it without disclosing it had been trimmed would be akin to restoring a car and trying to pass it off as an unrestored survivor. That would include claiming the mileage on the odometer is the original mileage when you know you rolled it back.

  • billwaltonsbeardbillwaltonsbeard Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone heard from Dick Towle lately?

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This shouldn’t surprise anyone thats opened a ton of wax. You can bust early 80s opc hockey for a week and not hit something that will 10, yet some sellers just seem to find these perfectly centered gems.

    Ask old timers and they will tell you they rarely ever saw Mint pre war cards 30-40 years ago. Which makes sense, how can a card 100 years old that came out of a tobacco pack end up perfectly centered with bright white borders. Yet these cards started popping up then last 20 years.

    Here is the thing, I’m not bashing the TPG’s, the reality is modern grading has no way to consistently catch these alterations. If the card measures, has consistent borders, and no residual from the alterations, how would it get caught.

    High end of this hobby has a substantial amount of altered cards.

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I wonder why Evan would post this? What could possibly be the benefit to him? It sure seems he has alienated at least half
    of his possible buyer pool. I know I would NEVER purchase anything directly from him or any card with provenance linked to him.

    What a tool.

    Simple, he has f u money and doesn’t need to be loved by the hobby. He is exposing what a lot of us knew, but couldn’t prove, that with fairly rudimentary techniques you can improve cards.

  • secretstashsecretstash Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 9:14AM

    @BBBrkrr said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @ndleo said:
    It looks like they need to be oversized, is that common to see oversized vintage cards?

    >
    Yes, fairly common.

    It is and you can see it perfectly anytime you open a vending from the 70s or early 80s. I've had so many cards returned from PSA for Min Size that were straight out of the pack.

    It surely seems undeniable that don't actually know the difference between factory cut and trimmed. If they did, minsizerq would always be given a number grade. They have countless cards that do not properly fit into holders, so they also cannot use that as an excuse...

  • BBBrkrrBBBrkrr Posts: 890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @secretstash said:

    @BBBrkrr said:

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @ndleo said:
    It looks like they need to be oversized, is that common to see oversized vintage cards?

    >
    Yes, fairly common.

    It is and you can see it perfectly anytime you open a vending from the 70s or early 80s. I've had so many cards returned from PSA for Min Size that were straight out of the pack.

    It surely seems undeniable that don't actually know the difference between factory cut and trimmed. If they did, minsizerq would always be given a number grade. They have countless cards that do not properly fit into holders, so they also cannot use that as an excuse...

    Absolutely. I'd guess it's easier to just not grade than go out on a limb and make a negative assessment.

  • CakesCakes Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BBBrkrr said:
    I actually don't care as long as it ends up the correct size for the card and passes authentication for a grade. If it's good enough for art restoration then it's good enough here.

    If a card comes out of the factory too long and it gets 'cleaned up' by an individual into the exact correct size with beautiful corners then I'm OK with that. Doesn't matter to me if it gets to its condition by the factory or someone later as long as it's still correct size, etc...

    In addition to Art it's also widely accepted in the Comic world.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
  • jimqjimq Posts: 253 ✭✭✭

    @billwaltonsbeard said:
    Anyone heard from Dick Towle lately?

    passed away a few years ago so probably not. I think his family is still active. Many yeas ago I had a 51 Mantle that had tape on front and he made it look like it didn't. Wasn't worth anything but it was nice to look at.

  • secretstashsecretstash Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 11:59AM

    Part 2 posted today shows just how rare uncut sheets are. Imagine if they got into the wrong hands... B)

    TIME TO WAKE UP!

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fergie23 said:

    If you have high grade vintage cards many of them are trimmed/sheet cut. Heck, if you have high grade modern cards, some of those have been trimmed/altered as well. I figured at this point everyone basically knew this already.

    imo, there are innumerable collectors who have yet to come to grips with this, unfortunately.

    for those who refuse to believe that shit like this is pervasive, perhaps this will provide some clarity: bust out the cards you pulled from packs as a kid, think about how much they meant to you for countless years, and take note of their condition.

  • Nathaniel1960Nathaniel1960 Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone heard from Dick Towle lately?

    Kiss me once, shame on you.
    Kiss me twice.....let's party.
  • Nathaniel1960Nathaniel1960 Posts: 2,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nathaniel1960 said:
    Anyone heard from Dick Towle lately?

    Never mind / he passed in 2021.

    https://www.gonewiththestain.com/dick-towle-memorial-page.html

    Kiss me once, shame on you.
    Kiss me twice.....let's party.
  • RidethelightningRidethelightning Posts: 362 ✭✭✭

    Why in the heck did you mention dicktowell in the same sentence..

    (oh I see your pic, understood in your world)

  • brad31brad31 Posts: 2,476 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not OK with it in any shape or form. Technology will eventually be able to catch these and for major cards they will have to be re-sent in to whomever figures it out and be graded again.

  • RidethelightningRidethelightning Posts: 362 ✭✭✭

    One billion % in support of it, as there is no way to stop it. AI come to mind ? :) The world is toast within 10 years.

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