1880 S Morgan Wheel Mark?
2windy2fish
Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, here’s my question, truly not a complaint, perhaps someone can enlighten me.
I just received a small group of dollars back from our host and will be posting a few GTG’s in the next couple of days.
This coin is perplexing, Details grade “Wheel Mark”….First off i am not sure what mark they are referring to.
Secondly, in 1880 did the US Mint use a wheel? Counting, sorting or otherwise?
0
Comments
Are these the "Glam shots" or real "in hand coin" pics? If real pics I don't see it even with the high mag - if TV glam shots the problem may have been edited out.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
These are the Trueviews from PCGS
Wow. That does not look like a details coin to me. I would say 64+ or 65. I am anxious to hear what those with more experience and knowledge than I observe.
NGC - "Wheel marks are a concentrated area of hairlines that are caused by the rubber wheels in coin counting machines. When there is insufficient spacing between them, the wheels can essentially polish a small portion of the surface of the coin"
Maybe the right side wing in the reverse picture was the area affected?
EDIT: At times, TV's are almost like believing dating profile pictures -
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I couldn’t find a definition of “wheel marks” from PCGS, but this is from NGC:
“Wheel marks are a concentrated area of hairlines that are caused by the rubber wheels in coin counting machines. When there is insufficient spacing between them, the wheels can essentially polish a small portion of the surface of the coin.”
Wheel marks are sometimes difficult to detect, even in-hand and can be impossible to identify in some images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Can't answer your questions, but i love the look of the coin.
I can't see anything that would keep it from straight grading, but i'm no expert and blind in one eye and can't see out the other.
Whoever can see the issues, can you point them out or circle them so i can learn a little bit...thanks.
Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23
Previous thread on it with the ngc link and photos and explanations of difficulty to see.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1085676/wheel-mark-details
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Is there any history about when the US mint started using counters/sorters that implemented “Wheels” or is this just a generic catch all?
Maybe the We T of In God We Trust> Wheelmarks cab be very hard to see. When you get the coin back rotate it slowly in the light and they may be visible.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
I don’t think the damage would have occurred at the Mint.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Beautiful coin. I would break it out and send it again. Possibly some disturbance under the E and towards the D, but ridiculous result for a grading submission. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
It's not necessarily a ridiculous result, at all. As I posted previously, wheel marks are sometimes difficult to detect, even in-hand and can be impossible to identify in some images.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think you got burned. Just my opinion.
That's not a bad looking Morgan, it's got eye appeal with no visible problems. They obviously saw something though.
I would think if anything maybe knock it down a point?
My suggestion would be to send it to another grading company if your going to give it another shot.
I was also thinking you could email PCGS seeing as it has a TV and ask for reconsideration I suppose.
Detail grades are the kiss of death on common date morgans unfortunately and I don't think that coin deserves it.
I see marks in the denticles on the left side (as viewed) that look as if there is a line through them from about 9 o'clock to about 10 o'clock on the reverse. That really is the only anomaly I detect on the images. Cheers, RickO
That mark under the E in We may be the culprit. Crack it out and try your luck at NGC.
As I've seen posted twice here, already
wheel marks are sometimes difficult to detect, even in-hand and can be impossible to identify in some images.
While not impossible, it's highly unlikely that PCGS imagined a wheel mark. And if one is present, that usually results in a details-grade (not a 1 point grade deduction). Rather than send the coin elsewhere, I suggest that the OP inspect the coin carefully and if he can't detect a wheel mark, show the coin to one or more other numismatists.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That mark isn't a wheel-mark and wouldn't result in a details-grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From the looks of this coin, Mark, I think that's obvious.
Pete
I agree, Pete, but a number of other posts have ignored that reality.
I've made my point multiple times, now, so will move on.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Usually they'll say "obverse" or "reverse" with the problem. It sure looks like a gem to me. No use throwing bad money after good, would sell online and move on.
If they are that difficult to detect, then what is the point. I could possibly, possibly understand if being considered for a top/pop MS68, but my opinion is that it's ridiculous. I can't imagine a responsible grader destroying the value of such a beautiful piece of history with his/her micro eyes. Micro management, way of the 20's.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@MFeld
I appreciate your comments.
Definetly something that override my comments. I only mention what I think.
You share what you know.
Big difference and the op now knows exactly what's up.
Thank you
Agree with MFeld. I posted above the link to the other thread with the NGC link in it (and some other examples). Here is the NGC link. It has a couple of good examples of how pictures can hide lines (wheel marks in this case).
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4412/Wheel-Marks/
It is not just wheel mark lines but hairlines on proofs (or other) or die polish lines or cleaning lines that can hide in a picture. The NGC article mentions why. Here is a thread I did having some fun one night with the same principle of hidden lines and these lines are an extreme. Also posted two photos from the thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1084402/morgan-little-lines-now-you-see-them-now-you-dont
.
.
.
I don't know how bad the OP coin is with the lines. Maybe it was a good decision and maybe it was overzealous because with a picture I might not be able to see it.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
@MFeld just because our hosts say there are wheelmarks present doesn't make it so. I would be interested to find out the total population of wheelmark details Morgan Dollars there are out of the millions our hosts have graded. How many have you personally seen MFeld?
I personally appreciate any issues, no matter how minor, being detected by any TPG. With internet selling so prevalent today, I cannot always see in hand or rely on sellers to give me the best photos. Although I have not seen the coin in discussion, believe the wheel marks are there and visible when rotating the coin under light. A straight on photo shot will not detect. Also the grade did not destroy the coins value, the wheel marks did.
I didn't say that the assessment of PCGS would "make it so". I wrote "While not impossible, it's highly unlikely that PCGS imagined a wheel mark."
I don't know how many I've seen, but the number is likely several dozen or more. The following link should lead you to your fill of PCGS and NGC details-grade wheel mark coins and illustrate how difficult they are to see in images. https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=51+790+231&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=PCGS+wheel+mark+&limitTo=all&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ok, i think i have found it…in the field between the P and Liberty’s forehead is a tiny group of hairlines, about a quarter inch long and maybe a sixteenth inch wide and extremely faint…not easy to discern in hand and impossible in the pics!
I had not considered the possibility that wheel marks could happen outside of the mint but it makes sense that common coins (8.9 million in this case) could have been run through a counting machine at some point…
On YouTube, Ben the Coin Geek has a video that—for me at least—was the best combined explanation and illustration of what a wheel mark is.
Good detailed visual.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
That video is great! Really shows how hidden those marks can be in lighting. Very helpful.
Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23