Maybe the most prolific internet counterfeit ever...

burfle23

This example has the 13th different "PCGS" cert number used for the fake MS64 1881-CC "Morgan" Morgan$'s:

Seller noted he had 4 of them with the identical cert #...

2 certs are inactive, 6 are for the wrong coin series, 8 certs have images available to compare...

Best, Jack.

dsessom

Jack, I believe PCGS should hire you as an anti-counterfeiting officer. Your detective work truly amazes me.

burfle23

I am available for hire ...

ricko

@burfle23... Nice work... Just wish this one - and others - could be permanently shut down. Cheers, RickO

calgolddiver

great investigative work ... thank you for your diligence

2windy2fish

Any chance you could make a youtube video explaining all of this to neophyte collectors?
Or better yet partner with one of the “influencers” that have a large following and appear as a guest and help educate folks?

MS66

It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

ProofCollection

@MS66 said:
It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

PCGS could easily just have an indicator on the cert verification page if there are known fakes and maybe even offer to sticker the legit one.

lilolme

@ProofCollection said:

@MS66 said:
It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

PCGS could easily just have an indicator on the cert verification page if there are known fakes and maybe even offer to sticker the legit one.

I wrote up a few ideas about this previously. It didn't get much traction. Here is the link.

I still think one key is more visibility about the counterfeits. That should result in more people being aware of them and/or looking for them. So having a link or similar on the cert page would be a start. Don't have any ideas on stopping it from a 'world' view.
.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083352/counterfeit-pcgs-slabs-can-more-be-done

ProofCollection

@lilolme said:

@ProofCollection said:

@MS66 said:
It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

PCGS could easily just have an indicator on the cert verification page if there are known fakes and maybe even offer to sticker the legit one.

I wrote up a few ideas about this previously. It didn't get much traction. Here is the link.

I still think one key is more visibility about the counterfeits. That should result in more people being aware of them and/or looking for them. So having a link or similar on the cert page would be a start. Don't have any ideas on stopping it from a 'world' view.
.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1083352/counterfeit-pcgs-slabs-can-more-be-done

That was a good read. For me just having the red flag of known counterfeits would help me to take a second look at a potential purchase. In the end though, the consumer really just has to know his stuff. Just like if you're buying second hand Gucci handbags or used cars, you have to know what to look for.

[Deleted User]

Scary.

streeter

PCGS needs to protect their brand. Why isn't eBay shutting down these sellers more quickly? These sellers need to be called what the really are: DEFENDANT.

burfle23

@ProofCollection said:

@MS66 said:
It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

PCGS could easily just have an indicator on the cert verification page if there are known fakes and maybe even offer to sticker the legit one.

I thought this a great approach to one of the certs for these:

lilolme

@burfle23 said:

@ProofCollection said:

@MS66 said:
It would also be useful if there were a comprehensive index which collectors could consult. Maybe some retired person here could assemble one?

PCGS could easily just have an indicator on the cert verification page if there are known fakes and maybe even offer to sticker the legit one.

I thought this a great approach to one of the certs for these:

I have stated before that I don't agree with the deactivation of a cert as it hurts the owner of the real slab (and could be a problem with cac if applicable) and does not much extra to protect others from a fake cert number. That statement or a similar one could be shown on the active cert number and still get the message across about the fake cert slabs. Additionally when a cert is searched on a known fake cert slab it could start with a pop up box about the fake that one clicks to close. Then still have the message on the cert page also.

However, this give little visibility to the problem as it is only shown on the known fake certs. There needs to be a line/box on every cert look up that notes the potential fake cert slabs and a link to the known fake certs and other applicable information. This would give more visibility as the message and link would show up on all the cert lookup pages (and this would be true even without the link). This would be a start. Prior link has more ideas.

burfle23

I don't disagree @lilolme but this is at least some action or response to a continuously growing problem. I see no reason to take this approach on a cert with TrueViews or good auction links with images, or the obviously dumb ones using the wrong denomination or variety, but helpful for the good certs of the same date/ series without any images...

johnny010

@PCGS_Moderator
Reply?
What is PCGS doing about this?
Should have an attorney on retainer and be sending letters out like cookies….

PCGS_Moderator

There is no easy solution to combat the ongoing problem of counterfeit coins and holders. PCGS is continually pursuing internal and external solutions. We, along with fellow industry leaders, have several meetings to discuss how we can protect the industry's integrity.

burfle23

@PCGS_Moderator said:
There is no easy solution to combat the ongoing problem of counterfeit coins and holders. PCGS is continually pursuing internal and external solutions. We, along with fellow industry leaders, have several meetings to discuss how we can protect the industry's integrity.

I would be interested in participating...

lilolme

@PCGS_Moderator said:
There is no easy solution to combat the ongoing problem of counterfeit coins and holders. PCGS is continually pursuing internal and external solutions. We, along with fellow industry leaders, have several meetings to discuss how we can protect the industry's integrity.

Thanks for the reply/Info. As far as an easy solution I agree there is not one, but there may not be a solution at all. Sort of like a solution to counterfeit coins and/or many other counterfeit items that have existed for years/decades. However, this is why I say visibility to the problem could help with it. I say this in part because even on this forum where it has been discussed many times, there are some who still have replies that imply not being aware of the problem or size of it. So back to more visibility of the problem. That is why I suggested that on each cert look up page to potentially have a box making note of the problem and to be aware. Also it could then provide a link to the PCGS museum of holders for additional holder information and examples of good holders. Again a thought and a possible start with visibility / awareness.

I will also say that so far most of these holders, including the ones in this thread, are somewhat easy to identify as fake if you know what to look for. Again visibility to what a good one looks like. However, I suspect similar to counterfeit coins that there will be some very good fake slabs down to just bad ones in the future.

TPRC

Wonderful and insightful work. Thank you! From your pics, the counterfeits aren't half bad and could fool a lot of people.
Tom

lilolme

Back with another thought but still on the same theme of visibility/awareness and education. For the shows that PCGS attends they could have a show case or two dedicated to the fake pcgs slab versus a genuine pcgs slab. I can understand that pcgs might not want to buy fake slabs but I could be done via photographs of fake versus genuine. Photos could be larger also for ease of viewing. This would also make transporting easy as there would be little monetary value. The display cases would have written information in addition to the photos. Possibly where to go to learn more.

Aotearoa

@burfle23 said:

@PCGS_Moderator said:
There is no easy solution to combat the ongoing problem of counterfeit coins and holders. PCGS is continually pursuing internal and external solutions. We, along with fellow industry leaders, have several meetings to discuss how we can protect the industry's integrity.

I would be interested in participating...

I second your self-nomination.

burfle23

Just notified by an internet seller he has 1881-CC's with the following additional cert numbers...

5 of the certs are inactive, the rest are for something other than an 1881-CC Morgan.