Is it ethical to call this coin a proof . . .

ajaan

when NGC doesn"t say so?
https://ebay.com/itm/182372419517

or can the seller just say it's his opinion

MFeld

Over the years, I’ve seen a number of other cases where the seller has done that. I might be mistaken, but I thought (at least at one time) that it was against grading company’s’ dealer agreements to do that.

AUandAG

Rims are not squared enough for me (see 6 - 7:00). Why would anyone need to polish a proof? Just makes no sense and I hope seller just made an error in the title.....ah sure.
bob
PS: has there ever been documentation to say that Columbian halves were done as proofs?

braddick

NGC states, "polished." I can't see anything about the Columbian that would prove otherwise.
I am a bit perplexed as to why that dealer- one who is much more seasoned and knowledgeable than me- would think differently.

MapsOnFire

That seller has carried that Columbian in his stock as a "proof" for 3 or 4 decades. It never looked like a proof to me, nor to anyone else I know. He has many other coins with MOON prices, especially early dollars. He's still a great guy; everyone trusts him.

jesbroken

Did they offer an 1893 Columbian Proof or were there just some prooflike coins? I thought only an 1892 Columbian proof was offered. Certainly not my area, but just curious.
Jim

Higashiyama

@jesbroken -- PCGS has graded one 1893 Columbian as a proof, and NGC at least one as well. Coinfacts states a mintage of 5.

jesbroken

@Higashiyama Thank you
Jim

1madman

Not ethical and this should be reported to the PNG and NGC (perhaps PCGS as well).

info@pngdealers.org

PeakRarities

@MapsOnFire said:
That seller has carried that Columbian in his stock as a "proof" for 3 or 4 decades. It never looked like a proof to me, nor to anyone else I know. He has many other coins with MOON prices, especially early dollars. He's still a great guy; everyone trusts him.

Looking at the prices of some others in that store, I can definitely see that this gentleman doesn't mind holding inventory for a long while.

pursuitofliberty

To answer the OP's question, in my opinion, no, it is not ethical.

And @MapsOnFire ... and I say this against my better judgement for the suspecting flame war that might follow ... count me as one who doesn't trust him any further than I could spit him ... and I can't spit that far.

jmlanzaf

Why wouldn't he just break it out? Being in the holder isn't helping it any.

Rollerman

Prices for his other commen's are somewhat in line. I think there was an entry error and the starting price should have been $19.50 instead of $19,950.00.

cameonut2011

He has had a number of “proof” coins in the classic commemorative series in PCGS and NGC UNC details over the years. I’ve vehemently disagreed with every single one.

I won’t address ethics, but he is a PNG member or was at one time. (I have not bothered to look recently.)

cameonut2011

As we speak, he has a second NGC UNC details “proof” Colombian. He also has a NGC MS64 Capped Bust Half Dime labeled as a proof with a $30k+ price tag.

MapsOnFire

No flames. I didn't mean we can trust his prices. I mean that over the decades many collectors have trusted him with their coins. He survived the serious economic downturn of 1980 when others didn't, because of that trust.

Glen2022

when I first saw this, I thought it was an April fools joke. It should be.

DollarAfterDollar

This isn't the only time that Dealer has arrived at a different conclusion than the grading services. You can bet your a** he didn't pay proof money for it.

alaura22

Wow, I just looked. I remember him from back in the 70s
We did a few head to head at auctions back in New York

OKbustchaser

What's unethical about it? He's been willing to back his opinion with his money for at least 2 decades now. Trust his opinion or don't trust it. He believes it and since it's his coin to sell his opinion matters.

BryceM

It may not be a proof, and he might be in error to make the claim (I have nothing to back this up), but I don't really see it as a question of ethics. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy it and I don't think anyone is failing to disclose anything. You have your opinion, I have my opinion, we can all see the seller's opinion, and the opinion of professional graders is clearly stated on the label.

TimNH

Seems calling it a Proof morphs a negative (polished details) into an extremely rare positive (intentional proof).

At $20K, it sure would imply a genuine proof rather than a details coin which might be like 30 bucks or something.

BillJones

I suppose it’s a matter of caveat emptor, but buyers should realize that it’s the seller, not the graders nor the market in general who believe this attribution to be true. For me, it would be a strong pass.

I had a dealer offer a coin to me as a Proof that was in a Mint State holder. I too thought that the coin might be a Proof. The trouble was, the seller wanted Proof coin money. My thought was, if you want Proof coin money, send it in yourself and see if the TPG will call it a Proof. Why should I assume all the risk?

cheezhed

I have my opinion of this seller and will not state it here.

PeakRarities

@OKbustchaser said:
What's unethical about it? He's been willing to back his opinion with his money for at least 2 decades now. Trust his opinion or don't trust it. He believes it and since it's his coin to sell his opinion matters.

How is he willing to back his opinion with his money? If I spent 20k on that details coin, is he going to offer any type of buyback over 80%? If I kick the bucket, would my heir be able to take the coin to him and recoup any reasonable amount of the purchase price? How about the 1826 CBH in 64+ for 30k that he's not advertising as a proof? How is it ethical to sell a $5,000 coin for $30,000?

ricko

It is clearly listed, good pictures of coin and holder, price stated. Buy or pass. I will pass. Cheers, RickO

MFeld

@DeplorableDan said:

@OKbustchaser said:
What's unethical about it? He's been willing to back his opinion with his money for at least 2 decades now. Trust his opinion or don't trust it. He believes it and since it's his coin to sell his opinion matters.

How is he willing to back his opinion with his money? If I spent 20k on that details coin, is he going to offer any type of buyback over 80%? If I kick the bucket, would my heir be able to take the coin to him and recoup any reasonable amount of the purchase price? How about the 1826 CBH in 64+ for 30k that he's not advertising as a proof? How is it ethical to sell a $5,000 coin for $30,000?

And even if he’d be willing to pay a whopping half of his asking price, (which I doubt) what if he’s not around when someone who buys such a coin, tries to re-sell it?

Glen2022

@DeplorableDan said:

@OKbustchaser said:
What's unethical about it? He's been willing to back his opinion with his money for at least 2 decades now. Trust his opinion or don't trust it. He believes it and since it's his coin to sell his opinion matters.

How is he willing to back his opinion with his money? If I spent 20k on that details coin, is he going to offer any type of buyback over 80%? If I kick the bucket, would my heir be able to take the coin to him and recoup any reasonable amount of the purchase price? How about the 1826 CBH in 64+ for 30k that he's not advertising as a proof? How is it ethical to sell a $5,000 coin for $30,000?

Or buy a $30,000 coin for $5000 from some one who has no idea what he may have?

TomB

I'd imagine if this was an unknown, anonymous ebay seller with a raw, polished Columbian half for sale and if they wanted even one-tenth of the money this coin is being slopped at while calling it a proof and furnishing these images that we would have a near unanimous board opinion that they were either a shyster, truly ignorant or engaged in fraud and more than one or two folks would be stating "let's take this down!".

crazyhounddog

Without question this is not a proof coin. It’s 100% laughable too.

DelawareDoons

He's a decent museum curator. Won't discuss my opinion of him as a dealer though.

NumisOxide

If he thinks it's a Proof and actually wants to sell it then he should spend a few bucks and have it graded as such. Really makes no sense like others have expressed, other than fishing for someone with too much money, not enough knowledge to bite.

dunkleosteus430

But it's free shipping!

OKbustchaser

@NumisOxide said:
If he thinks it's a Proof and actually wants to sell it then he should spend a few bucks and have it graded as such. Really makes no sense like others have expressed, other than fishing for someone with too much money, not enough knowledge to bite.

My understanding is that over the years that he has tried at least 3 times to have NGC "correct their mistake". Note: this is hearsay--nothing I have personally heard Julian say. It seems that NGC has stated its opinion; Julian has stated his. While I would tend to go with NGC's opinion neither opinion is infallible.

As for "grossly overcharging" the price he wants for ANY coin which is owns is completely up to him. If he wants 20X the going rate and is willing to keep the coin in inventory until someone agrees with him that the coin is worth that amount then that is his prerogative.

braddick

As for "grossly overcharging" the price he wants for ANY coin which is owns is completely up to him. If he wants 20X the going rate and is willing to keep the coin in inventory until someone agrees with him that the coin is worth that amount then that is his prerogative.

$30.00 (the value of a cleaned Columbian) X's 20 is $600.00
Reaching his evaluation of nearly 20K requires a bit more math.

PeakRarities

Where I'm a bit perplexed is that if I search the sellers name on this forum, I see nothing but good things that people have had to say. Not sure what happened over the years... IMO this is not a good look for the hobby in general, and I do consider it to be embarrassing to all of the organizations below that are stamped on the page.

pursuitofliberty

@OKbustchaser said:

@NumisOxide said:
If he thinks it's a Proof and actually wants to sell it then he should spend a few bucks and have it graded as such. Really makes no sense like others have expressed, other than fishing for someone with too much money, not enough knowledge to bite.

My understanding is that over the years that he has tried at least 3 times to have NGC "correct their mistake". Note: this is hearsay--nothing I have personally heard Julian say. It seems that NGC has stated its opinion; Julian has stated his. While I would tend to go with NGC's opinion neither opinion is infallible.

As for "grossly overcharging" the price he wants for ANY coin which is owns is completely up to him. If he wants 20X the going rate and is willing to keep the coin in inventory until someone agrees with him that the coin is worth that amount then that is his prerogative.

Going to step back into the fray ...

Not many times I would disagree with you Jim, but this is one. When you are a Professional Numismatist, and your piers question the description of your coins, and the experts also question them, and then the leading services question what you say, I think it IS important to not spread false narratives. That's bad for the hobby.

He can ask for 1000x (or any other multiple) for anything he owns, I'll agree with that, but when you try to attach your "professionalism" to an unproven and generally considered false narrative, that's just throwing out whale bait ... and it's spoiled ... and it smells bad.

cameonut2011

@DeplorableDan said:
Where I'm a bit perplexed is that if I search the sellers name on this forum, I see nothing but good things that people have had to say. Not sure what happened over the years... IMO this is not a good look for the hobby in general, and I do consider it to be embarrassing to all of the organizations below that are stamped on the page.

I’m not going to question his intent; to his credit he left it in the NGC slab with the third party grading opinion. I do question whether cognitive and/or visual decline is implicated. And I say that not to attack him, but because people are questioning intent and ethics.

silviosi

@ cameonut2011
I’m not going to question his intent; to his credit he left it in the NGC slab with the third party grading opinion. I do question whether cognitive and/or visual decline is implicated.

As an MD I can agree with this statement. I had some old-time dealers as patients and "price psychopathy" is present on the form of non-violent but manipulations. Probably this happened.

1madman

@OKbustchaser said:

@NumisOxide said:
If he thinks it's a Proof and actually wants to sell it then he should spend a few bucks and have it graded as such. Really makes no sense like others have expressed, other than fishing for someone with too much money, not enough knowledge to bite.

My understanding is that over the years that he has tried at least 3 times to have NGC "correct their mistake". Note: this is hearsay--nothing I have personally heard Julian say. It seems that NGC has stated its opinion; Julian has stated his. While I would tend to go with NGC's opinion neither opinion is infallible.

As for "grossly overcharging" the price he wants for ANY coin which is owns is completely up to him. If he wants 20X the going rate and is willing to keep the coin in inventory until someone agrees with him that the coin is worth that amount then that is his prerogative.

The thing is that he’s attempting to sell the coin as a proof, not the asking price. Is this criminal in any way? Should/could charges be filed against this egregious behavior?

MFeld

@cameonut2011 said:

@DeplorableDan said:
Where I'm a bit perplexed is that if I search the sellers name on this forum, I see nothing but good things that people have had to say. Not sure what happened over the years... IMO this is not a good look for the hobby in general, and I do consider it to be embarrassing to all of the organizations below that are stamped on the page.

I’m not going to question his intent; to his credit he left it in the NGC slab with the third party grading opinion. I do question whether cognitive and/or visual decline is implicated. And I say that not to attack him, but because people are questioning intent and ethics.

The pattern of (what appear to be) very high ask prices and differences of opinion regarding designations such as PF vs. MS and PL vs. non-PL, has been established over a very long period of time. So I doubt this has anything to do with any type of “decline”.

MFeld

@1madman said:

@OKbustchaser said:

@NumisOxide said:
If he thinks it's a Proof and actually wants to sell it then he should spend a few bucks and have it graded as such. Really makes no sense like others have expressed, other than fishing for someone with too much money, not enough knowledge to bite.

My understanding is that over the years that he has tried at least 3 times to have NGC "correct their mistake". Note: this is hearsay--nothing I have personally heard Julian say. It seems that NGC has stated its opinion; Julian has stated his. While I would tend to go with NGC's opinion neither opinion is infallible.

As for "grossly overcharging" the price he wants for ANY coin which is owns is completely up to him. If he wants 20X the going rate and is willing to keep the coin in inventory until someone agrees with him that the coin is worth that amount then that is his prerogative.

The thing is that he’s attempting to sell the coin as a proof, not the asking price. Is this criminal in any way? Should/could charges be filed against this egregious behavior?

As much as I dislike it, no and no.

OKbustchaser

The thing is that he’s attempting to sell the coin as a proof, not the asking price. Is this criminal in any way? Should/could charges be filed against this egregious behavior?

Not if he truly believes it is a proof. After a quarter of a century proclaiming it is I tend to believe that's what he thinks.

silviosi

@1madman said:

» show previous quotes
The thing is that he’s attempting to sell the coin as a proof, not the asking price. Is this criminal in any way? Should/could charges be filed against this egregious behavior?

MAD, why you look direct on criminal filled case? You must be relative young to thing directly this. In this case what you do with those thousands of pseudo collector who advertise and sell scrap coins? you will flood the justice department? And how you can proved it is an intentional act of extorsion?

So forgot this, it is an old dealer from 50 years and also I think over 80 years old.

PS: Do not take personal, I give you an Hypothesis.

MrEureka

@jmlanzaf said:
Why wouldn't he just break it out? Being in the holder isn't helping it any.

If the coin were mine and I thought it a real proof, I’d crack it out and keep trying it every few years. But it’s not mine, and I can see how leaving it in that holder serves the perfectly legitimate purposes of warning potential buyers that they may never get the coin authenticated as a proof, inviting sharp counteroffers, and sending the message that the authority of the TPG’s is not absolute. That said, a showcase full of coins like that is probably not helpful in attracting new clients.

MrEureka

@silviosi said:

@ cameonut2011
I’m not going to question his intent; to his credit he left it in the NGC slab with the third party grading opinion. I do question whether cognitive and/or visual decline is implicated.

As an MD I can agree with this statement. I had some old-time dealers as patients and "price psychopathy" …

You made me Google that! 😂 Came up empty, but you’re the doctor. 😉

ajaan

I wonder if he paid proof money for the coin.

silviosi

@ MrEureka
You made me Google that!

Psychophysiology of mental health
Brian F. O'Donnell, ... William P. Hetrick, in Reference Module in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Psychology, 2022

Psychopathy
Psychopathy describes a set of personality traits and behaviors associated with a lack of emotional sensitivity and empathy, impulsiveness, superficial charm and insensitivity to punishing consequences. Psychopathic traits are observed in about 1% of the population and are more prevalent in men than women (Werner et al., 2015)

references: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/psychopathy

Sorry I can not give you my pass and user for Med database.

MrEureka

@silviosi said:

@ MrEureka
You made me Google that!

Psychophysiology of mental health
Brian F. O'Donnell, ... William P. Hetrick, in Reference Module in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Psychology, 2022

Psychopathy
Psychopathy describes a set of personality traits and behaviors associated with a lack of emotional sensitivity and empathy, impulsiveness, superficial charm and insensitivity to punishing consequences. Psychopathic traits are observed in about 1% of the population and are more prevalent in men than women (Werner et al., 2015)

references: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/psychopathy

Sorry I can not give you my pass and user for Med database.

“Psychopathy” was not new to me. I was just hoping to find that “price psychopathy” was an actual thing. Not that I won’t use the phrase every chance I get in the future. 😂

fathom

If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.

skier07

@fathom said:
If I would post that as an opinion I would include some empirical evidence to back up my claim.

This. You took the words right out of my mouth.