Crossover upgrade question.

SanctionII

I was looking through information about coins in my collection and came across a 1940 Proof Nickel that caused me to post this thread. The coin was acquired in an NGC holder. I cracked it out and placed it into a Capital Holder where it remained for many years as I assembled a 1940 proof set from raw coins that I hunted for and purchased.

Last year I submitted the nickel (along with the other four coins making up the 1940 Proof set) to our host for grading. It came back graded PF67. Yesterday I found the NGC holder insert that the nickel was previously in. To my surprise the insert showed that NGC graded the nickel a PF66 (I had forgotten the NGC grade for this nickel long ago).

So with the above in mind, my question is how often (in your experience) does PCGS assign a grade to a coin that is higher than the grade assigned to it by another TPG?

lermish

I've only been submitting for a couple of years so my experience is short and recent.

I've had 6 successful crossovers. Every single one came back lower. (Luckily, I paid the lower grade price on all of them or I wouldn't have gambled and just bought them in PCGS plastic to start with but still...)

BustHalfBrian

It happens. It depends on the series, denomination, composition etc since NGC is more conservative than PCGS in some categories, and more lenient in others. A few years ago, I had a raw 90-CC dollar that was cracked from NGC 63 and came back PCGS 64. From my numerous crossover attempts, I've found that their silver dollar grades are usually
more or less on par. But on average, the older NGC grades (fatty era) upgrade at PCGS more frequently than the ones graded more recently by NGC, no matter the series.

Cranium_Basher73

What years were the fatty era for NGC? I have a O-mint $20 and a CC-mint $20 that were slabbed at least 15 years ago. And a slabbed proof Barber half that I had sinice 2000.

lkeigwin

This isn't a question about a coin crossing at a higher grade, which happens but is rare in my experience.

It is a question about a raw coin grading higher than when it was in another TPG holder. While still unusual it is not that rare. Not long ago I cracked an ICG bust half (MS62) and it graded MS63 at PCGS.
Lance.

alaura22

SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

TomB

@alaura22 said:
SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

Since we have no details other than NGC-to-PCGS we can give no real insight.

In my opinion, people think waaaaaay too much about this scenario. The sharps know what they are doing and they engage in grading arbitrage knowing they will win some and they will take big hits, too. If you're not a sharp, and only a very few folks are, then I wouldn't suggest obsessing over it.

Cougar1978

Never happened to me. I have never tried cross NGC to our hosts but have attempted cross other TPG’s. At present have mostly PCGS, NGC. Plus some Anacs, ICG (just fine where they are, not expensive enough justify cross over expense, one of 4 TPG accepted by ebay).

It’s like football - on any given day…..

People make assumptions about TPG’s while in reality this does not consider when the coin was graded or the individual grader nor the coin itself. YMMV.

keyman64

I've upgraded a SEGS 64FB to a PCGS 65FB, an ANACS 65FB to PCGS 66FB, an NGC 66FB to 67+FB and a couple other minor wins. So yeah, it happens. But the list is MUCH MUCH longer for the coins that downgrade. More often than not, NGC coins drop in grade for me at PCGS.

This is why people should buy the coin, not the holder.

ChrisH821

It happens, sometimes it even goes the other way.

coinbuf

I never worry about it, I like the coins I have and in the holders they are in.

Dave99B

I’ve attempted to cross around 20. I think 16 crossed, with one upgrade, and one ‘+’. The other 4 didn’t even cross at the same grade. Most were NGC.

Dave

Rollerman

@alaura22 said:
SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

You never got an answer to your question, and I don't have any idea as have always just submitted them raw. I do hope someone will give you an answer though.

oih82w8

The few that I have crossed from ANACS, most were straight across. As far as NGC goes, most were down at least 1 grade. Roll the dice and take your chances. Your milage may vary.

7Jaguars

ANACS Proof66 to PCGS Proof69 - cracked out first, of course...

alaura22

@7Jaguars said:
ANACS Proof66 to PCGS Proof69 - cracked out first, of course...

Of Course???

ricko

I am not a grade chaser.... Sure, I have many slabbed coins... NGC and PCGS... some ICG. I buy the coin because I like it... The grade assigned (if slabbed) is just a detail, and not part of my consideration/decision. Personally, I think too many obsess about grades. Yep, I have some 70's, and some AG's.... and lots in between. I like my coins and enjoy them. Cheers, RickO

DelawareDoons

If you want upgrades you need to crack 'em out. Plain and simple. They may upgrade anyway, but the odds of success are far lower.

WaterSport

If I am buying a NGC coin, It must be one grade higher than what I expect it will get at PCGS.

WS

DennisH

Over 20+ years I've had 8-10 coins that have gone up (always submitted in the holders). A couple were very old foreign coins; most were Morgans. My latest batch, which is showing "out for delivery" right now, includes an ANACS AU58 that went up to MS61.

Steve27

I've had an ANACS AU53 1921 Peace dollar come back PCGS AU55, and a PCGS 1900 AU58 nickel come back MS62. But both of these were crack-outs.

mbogoman

I had an old fatty NGC EF45 1889-CC $1 that I sent in for crossing. In my opinion, it was an easy 50, but it got sent back - DNC. I cracked it out and re-submitted raw - it came back AU50. A little costly on the round-trips, but worth it.
Similarly, I had an 1876 Trade $1 that NGC had graded MS61 PL, but it was clearly a proof (all the diagnostics). It failed at crossing, but after cracking out and submitting raw, it came back PR62.
Those two are my only upgrades. The rest have either crossed at grade or one lower, or, sometimes just plain old DNC!

skier07

@alaura22 said:
SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

It depends what the value of the coin is and what your level of risk is. For more expensive coins I would submit the coin in the NGC holder with a minimum grade. Aside from grading and shipping fees there’s very little downside risk.

Maywood

Since a coin is being viewed through the plastic holder during a same grade cross-over, PCGS tends to err on the conservative side. That means that coins which might same grade cross or upgrade might be DNC'd. When a coin is sent in raw it just gets graded, so the OP coin during an in-holder cross-over may have DNC'd.

robec

I’ve had more success with crack outs than crossovers. I have had crossovers that crossed at grade, but most have lost a point. I’ve never had a crossover that exceeded NGC’s given grade.

However, my crack outs have graded 99% of the time compared to under 50% for crosses. The majority of crack outs resulted in the same grade, many from previously unsuccessful crossovers. I’ve also had a good number of crack outs that graded higher, one or more graded 2 points higher.

The only way I would submit a crossover would be one with a very high value and a questionable chance of receiving a PCGS grade.

semikeycollector

@alaura22 said:
SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

I've been told to crack it out before submitting it to PCGS.The reason being: If they want to give it a higher grade it would likely wound their ego and they may not do it. The downside is that you may not like the grade at all and in some cases they may unfairly body bag the coin as not gradable.

AlanSki

I recently cracked out a bunch of soapbox anacs. A few + grade increases, a few 1 grade increases, several 2 grade increases, 1 3 grade increase.

If you feel good at cracking yourself and can see a warranted grade increase, do it raw. If the coin is a wobbler, submit in the slab with a minimum crossover grade.

privatecoin

While I'm a rookie, my crossover attempts are 0-2. My crackouts that actually upgraded 2-3. So I slightly lean in favor of crackouts.

oldabeintx

This is probably unanswerable, but: I have several early type coins in the small anacs holders. I've debated whether to try to cross with a minimum grade. I like the old holders but am concerned a bit about liquidity. Is there a reasonable probability (50/50 or better) that many will cross at grade? PCGS vs. NGC receptivity?

alaura22

The coin I'm looking to cross is a 2022 1 rand Krugerrand NGC MS70, seems that a lot of dealers haven't submitted these coins to PCGS for grading, but there a lots in NGC holders.
Wonder why?
So the question still is, submit in holder or crack it out.

AlanSki

@oldabeintx said:
This is probably unanswerable, but: I have several early type coins in the small anacs holders. I've debated whether to try to cross with a minimum grade. I like the old holders but am concerned a bit about liquidity. Is there a reasonable probability (50/50 or better) that many will cross at grade? PCGS vs. NGC receptivity?

For the intact small holders I think you’d be lucky to get a crossover. More luck if raw but you take that gamble. Can you afford to lose a grade that you currently have?

SNMAN

@alaura22 said:
The coin I'm looking to cross is a 2022 1 rand Krugerrand NGC MS70, seems that a lot of dealers haven't submitted these coins to PCGS for grading, but there a lots in NGC holders.
Wonder why?
So the question still is, submit in holder or crack it out.

No experience myself, from recent discussions above seemed like crack it out is the answer. Good luck

gumby1234

Is there any reason that you don't want to leave it in its current holder? It is a Bullion coin isn't it?

1madman

@alaura22 said:
The coin I'm looking to cross is a 2022 1 rand Krugerrand NGC MS70, seems that a lot of dealers haven't submitted these coins to PCGS for grading, but there a lots in NGC holders.
Wonder why?
So the question still is, submit in holder or crack it out.

Submit it in the NGC holder and min grade it 70. If it’s decent it should cross. No reason to crack because what if it goes to a 69? The NGC 70 is worth more than the pcgs 69.

1madman

@oldabeintx said:
This is probably unanswerable, but: I have several early type coins in the small anacs holders. I've debated whether to try to cross with a minimum grade. I like the old holders but am concerned a bit about liquidity. Is there a reasonable probability (50/50 or better) that many will cross at grade? PCGS vs. NGC receptivity?

If you’re concerned about losing the old holder to downgrades, or think the coins are lock upgrades at pcgs, just submit with higher min grades on the submission form. Pcgs accepts this style submission now.

I personally grade more conservative than pcgs, so I’d feel completely comfortable submitting my crossover coins with higher min grades listed on the form. Every coin I’ve ever crossed to pcgs has crossed at the same grade or upgraded. Never had a DNC, never had a downgrade.

oldabeintx

@AlanSki said:

@oldabeintx said:
This is probably unanswerable, but: I have several early type coins in the small anacs holders. I've debated whether to try to cross with a minimum grade. I like the old holders but am concerned a bit about liquidity. Is there a reasonable probability (50/50 or better) that many will cross at grade? PCGS vs. NGC receptivity?

For the intact small holders I think you’d be lucky to get a crossover. More luck if raw but you take that gamble. Can you afford to lose a grade that you currently have?

Thanks, afford yes, but I do like the small holders and like the grades assigned by anacs. If I try it I'll set a minimum, only waste will be fees and shipping.

alaura22

@gumby1234 said:
Is there any reason that you don't want to leave it in its current holder? It is a Bullion coin isn't it?

I need it for a PCGS registry set

alaura22

@1madman said:

@alaura22 said:
The coin I'm looking to cross is a 2022 1 rand Krugerrand NGC MS70, seems that a lot of dealers haven't submitted these coins to PCGS for grading, but there a lots in NGC holders.
Wonder why?
So the question still is, submit in holder or crack it out.

Submit it in the NGC holder and min grade it 70. If it’s decent it should cross. No reason to crack because what if it goes to a 69? The NGC 70 is worth more than the pcgs 69.

The only problem with that is if it doesn't cross at the same grade then I have to start all over again with another coin. and on and on and on till one crosses........
I do wonder why the dealers ddin't send these into PCGS for grading, very few graded.
Any dealers out there??? I know of at least 100 customers that need this coin...............ha ha ha

lars1963

I've got 14 PCI Coins I just bought. Seems like crackouts is the way to go. I'm a newbie

Everyone agree? Thanks for your expertise!

Cougar1978

Take a look at the expense involved, plan a budget for it, then launch. Yes send your PCI material to our hosts to grade (crackout) or simply cross at any grade. Good luck.

NorCalJack

Well I have actually had better luck cracking out the coin and sending it in raw. Here is an example of a coin that was originally in an NGC-MS66 holder and it came back DNC. So I cracked it out and sent it in again and it came back MS-66

So now I just crack them out and send in raw. I think unless it is a slam dunk cross, they will DNC the coin. If the holder has scratches it can detract from the true state of the coin. I think having the coin out of the holder will show the true luster of the coin. So I just send them all in raw now.

Here is an example of a coin that was in an ANACS holder, MS-65 and I cracked it out it came back MS-67. For this variety it is a top pop 1/0 so I was very fortunate to have sent this in.

lilolme

@SanctionII said:

So with the above in mind, my question is how often (in your experience) does PCGS assign a grade to a coin that is higher than the grade assigned to it by another TPG?

I don't know the answer to that. But I can say that there are people who make their living by doing this - cracking out coins and resubmitting or sometimes doing it in-holder. This does include doing it within the same service also.

Elcontador

@alaura22 said:
SanctionII
Wonder what grade you would have gotten if you submitted it in the old holder.
I have a coin that I want to cross from NGC to PCGS, is it better to crack it out or submit in the NGC holder, which do you guys think is better.

Many people I respect have told me you'll have an easier with an upgrade submitting a coin raw rather than in any holder. That said, plenty of people have done this and gotten the coin back in a lower graded holder. With an expensive coin, I won't take that gamble. I always submit my coins in holder.

I only once got a coin sent in an NGC holder to PCGS cross at same grade. I have been collecting over 30 years. I will not do that again. This was a series I knew very well and there wasn't much of a price bump between said coin in an NGC and PCGS holder. I've had people know how far more than I do who had looked at these coins being surprised that a number of these NGC cross attempts didn't work.

davewesen

@lars1963 said:
I've got 14 PCI Coins I just bought. Seems like crackouts is the way to go. I'm a newbie

Everyone agree? Thanks for your expertise!

Yes, and if they are older slabs and 90% silver with the orange/pink perimeter you might consider a MS70 on uncirculated. If they are the newest version, the purples will get AT'd and/or lower grades.

Can you really consider it a 'cross-over' if it was removed from an original slab and stored in another container for a few years?

PeakRarities

@lilolme said:

@SanctionII said:

So with the above in mind, my question is how often (in your experience) does PCGS assign a grade to a coin that is higher than the grade assigned to it by another TPG?

I don't know the answer to that. But I can say that there are people who make their living by doing this - cracking out coins and resubmitting or sometimes doing it in-holder. This does include doing it within the same service also.

Over the past couple years, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them had pivot their business model. It's very difficult right now to "make" any significant upgrades with PCGS, at least from what I've observed. YMMV.

Old_Collector

@oldabeintx said:
This is probably unanswerable, but: I have several early type coins in the small anacs holders. I've debated whether to try to cross with a minimum grade. I like the old holders but am concerned a bit about liquidity. Is there a reasonable probability (50/50 or better) that many will cross at grade? PCGS vs. NGC receptivity?

NGC does not cross ANACS slabbed coins, only PCGS does unless something changed very recently.

safari_dude

It seems strange to me that NGC hasn’t ‘upped’ their grading criteria a little to try and emulate PCGS’s grading standards. With CACG in the picture now they may find their coins selling for less and less…and to me that would be a big concern unless I wanted cheaper coins with ‘artificially higher’ grades in NGC slabs.

lilolme

@PeakRarities said:

@lilolme said:

@SanctionII said:

So with the above in mind, my question is how often (in your experience) does PCGS assign a grade to a coin that is higher than the grade assigned to it by another TPG?

I don't know the answer to that. But I can say that there are people who make their living by doing this - cracking out coins and resubmitting or sometimes doing it in-holder. This does include doing it within the same service also.

Over the past couple years, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them had pivot their business model. It's very difficult right now to "make" any significant upgrades with PCGS, at least from what I've observed. YMMV.

Perhaps - as overall I don't know who has shifted their business model and who has not. But for the ones I know of they continue to march on. I will note that some of them are probably some of the sharpest graders around, at least in the area that they 'work at'. Many former graders. They will also mention submission techniques to help in getting the upgrade (I don'k know anything about that claim). They are still getting the 'big score' or whatever term one wants to use and of course some smaller ones. But perhaps not as much in the past but are still going at it.