@7Jaguars said:
Sadly, his performance has continued to deteriorate. Stop the cap on career, let's go to the last year (2nd worst completion %) or the last two years.
THen again, please tell me his record in playoffs or in 4th Quarter comebacks in the last two years again???
He needs to prove himself out, and he is like a QB version of Zeke Elliot sadly (again).
It would help if he actually had some WRs to throw too besides a TE
It would also help that he not throw the ball away when not provoked or necessarily rushed. And he certainly has better protection with a better running attack than Allen or Burrows. Also bottom line he has choked any playoff game with any meaning whatsoever. Good player, NOT great and the money he is asking crazy. Watson certainly did not help it any...
I don't think that a city-named or state-named team really changes anything. I do like the model of Green Bay as a team but look at what they have had to put up with over the last couple of years with their QB!
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
Sadly, his performance has continued to deteriorate. Stop the cap on career, let's go to the last year (2nd worst completion %) or the last two years.
THen again, please tell me his record in playoffs or in 4th Quarter comebacks in the last two years again???
He needs to prove himself out, and he is like a QB version of Zeke Elliot sadly (again).
It would help if he actually had some WRs to throw too besides a TE
It would also help that he not throw the ball away when not provoked or necessarily rushed. And he certainly has better protection with a better running attack than Allen or Burrows. Also bottom line he has choked any playoff game with any meaning whatsoever. Good player, NOT great and the money he is asking crazy. Watson certainly did not help it any...
I don't think that a city-named or state-named team really changes anything. I do like the model of Green Bay as a team but look at what they have had to put up with over the last couple of years with their QB!
Allen and Burrows both has elite WRs and Allen can be argued blew some games. Burrows big stud and matching an elite QB with and elite college WR teammate that teams have done is smart, but it doesnt change the fact that Jackson has has an average at best WR core. He wouldnt be my first pick but there have been college teams that have had a better WR core than the slop hes had to work with
@erikthredd said:
Lamar just got paid. 5yrs 260M w/185M guaranteed. He now has the highest AAV in NFL history at 52M
Like I've said, and I repeat, each new big contract will often set a record for annual, total, or guaranteed. For the most part these guys have been happy to have their deal be one of the three.
Lamar could have gotten a very good deal awhile ago, and then been further along and ready to get something even better.
If you hold out to be the most yearly, the most ever, and the most guaranteed, or all guaranteed, you might find that in the end you did yourself a disservice.
Obviously, for Lamar, he was going to be rich either way, so it's not like some sub-level player turning down a deal then regretting it forever.
However, Lamar might have done himself a disservice if he cares about the perception of some of his fans. But truth be told, he has plenty of fans and plenty of people who supported him all along. So it probably doesn't matter.
If he fails to have a career trajectory worthy of not just his contract but more importantly what many saw/see as his potential, these contract issues will be oft discussed and will linger for some as not only a mark against him but also as a reason why his body of work should be seen as less. He will now be hyper-criticized more frequently than he would have been.
@erikthredd said:
Lamar just got paid. 5yrs 260M w/185M guaranteed. He now has the highest AAV in NFL history at 52M
Like I've said, and I repeat, each new big contract will often set a record for annual, total, or guaranteed. For the most part these guys have been happy to have their deal be one of the three.
Lamar could have gotten a very good deal awhile ago, and then been further along and ready to get something even better.
If you hold out to be the most yearly, the most ever, and the most guaranteed, or all guaranteed, you might find that in the end you did yourself a disservice.
Obviously, for Lamar, he was going to be rich either way, so it's not like some sub-level player turning down a deal then regretting it forever.
However, Lamar might have done himself a disservice if he cares about the perception of some of his fans. But truth be told, he has plenty of fans and plenty of people who supported him all along. So it probably doesn't matter.
If he fails to have a career trajectory worthy of not just his contract but more importantly what many saw/see as his potential, these contract issues will be oft discussed and will linger for some as not only a mark against him but also as a reason why his body of work should be seen as less. He will now be hyper-criticized more frequently than he would have been.
Its never a disservice to get the most yearly, thats how you maximize earnings. It would be nice though if we could lessen the focus on highest ever every time. Every top QB is going to be the new highest ever
Jackson is smarter than people think though. He basically let Hurts agent negotiate his contract for free with the Hurts deal and then just added some millions for his contract
@erikthredd said:
So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@erikthredd said:
So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
With better playmakers a 4000-5000K season is definitely realistic but to jump to an all time record really isn't.
@erikthredd said:
So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
With better playmakers a 4000-5000K season is definitely realistic but to jump to an all time record really isn't.
They all say things like that though. He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive. Would you rather he say he hopes to have an average year? Is he going to break a record probably not, but theyve never really put weapons around him and their GM even admitted that
He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive.
Doesn't mean that much in the NFL when it comes to QBs. Other Heisman Trophy Winners include Baker Mayfield, Johnny Manziel, and DoubleDragon's favorite QB - Cam Newton !
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive.
Doesn't mean that much in the NFL when it comes to QBs. Other Heisman Trophy Winners include Baker Mayfield, Johnny Manziel, and DoubleDragon's favorite QB - Cam Newton !
Newton was fine for a while in the NFL. The point was that there is talent there and even the Ravens GM on video has admitted they havent given him enough to work with. Do I think hes the best QB no, could you do much worse certainly. No reason to root for him to fail and if hes not confident he will fail. NFL has more than enough billions they make every year to pay him and the other QBs
@erikthredd said:
So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
With better playmakers a 4000-5000K season is definitely realistic but to jump to an all time record really isn't.
They all say things like that though. He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive. Would you rather he say he hopes to have an average year? Is he going to break a record probably not, but theyve never really put weapons around him and their GM even admitted that
Didn't he also win an MVP award in year 2or3 too? I think he would have been better off just saying hopefully this leads to the Ravens going deeper in the playoffs. That sounds better than pointing to a 6K passing yards season when everyone will,and did,point out that his best passing season was around half that number.
Its great that the Ravens not only invested in him but also put enough upgrades around him to help him develop his passing game more.
@erikthredd said:
So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
With better playmakers a 4000-5000K season is definitely realistic but to jump to an all time record really isn't.
They all say things like that though. He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive. Would you rather he say he hopes to have an average year? Is he going to break a record probably not, but theyve never really put weapons around him and their GM even admitted that
Didn't he also win an MVP award in year 2or3 too? I think he would have been better off just saying hopefully this leads to the Ravens going deeper in the playoffs. That sounds better than pointing to a 6K passing yards season when everyone will,and did,point out that his best passing season was around half that number.
Its great that the Ravens not only invested in him but also put enough upgrades around him to help him develop his passing game more.
He won the 2019 MVP. You have to have that confidence and desire to reach such goals as a pro athlete especially one thats at that level. I'd be far more concerned if I was a fan of a team that wasnt hoping to do such things.
Its now a 17 game season in a passing league that really limits what DBs can do to WRs and QBs basically cant be hit anymore. A 6k passing season is going to happen at some point. Other than the one Marino season everyone over 5 has been since 2008 and most have been after 2013.
If you look at the most passing yards in a season other than Marino and Fouts the top 35 all happened after 2007 and Brady and Breese were the only ones in the 2000s. 31 of the 35 are in the last 10-12 years and its increasing. I dont know if it will happen this year but theres multiple active QBs that have had 5k+ seasons and two are pretty young.
I would bet in the next 5 years we see a 6k from someone, I dont think it will be Lamar but I wont blame him for wanting it to be him
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
@thisistheshow said:
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
@thisistheshow said:
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
..
Ravens fans want to hear him say that he's just focussed on winning a SB. That's it. And the narrative from fans was overwhelmingly negative towards him when the deal wasn't getting done.
Maybe I am just seeing things differently than you.
@thisistheshow said:
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
..
Ravens fans want to hear him say that he's just focussed on winning a SB. That's it. And the narrative from fans was overwhelmingly negative towards him when the deal wasn't getting done.
Maybe I am just seeing things differently than you.
A generic answer doesnt really change anything. A historic season would almost certainly put them in the playoffs.
I'll never get why fans are so against players getting their market value. They wouldnt walk into their own jobs and say you can pay me less than Im worth and can cut me for any reason at any time and not have to pay me, but thats what is expected of players.
The deal wasnt getting done because the Ravens werent putting out a reasonable deal. If they wanted to move on from him and didn't believe in him thats fine, but thats clearly not the case since they did finally offer a real deal and it got done. Its not the players job to give the team a discount especially not one that waited until they were close to free agency to offer an extension.
@thisistheshow said:
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
..
Ravens fans want to hear him say that he's just focussed on winning a SB. That's it. And the narrative from fans was overwhelmingly negative towards him when the deal wasn't getting done.
Maybe I am just seeing things differently than you.
A generic answer doesnt really change anything. A historic season would almost certainly put them in the playoffs.
I'll never get why fans are so against players getting their market value. They wouldnt walk into their own jobs and say you can pay me less than Im worth and can cut me for any reason at any time and not have to pay me, but thats what is expected of players.
The deal wasnt getting done because the Ravens werent putting out a reasonable deal. If they wanted to move on from him and didn't believe in him thats fine, but thats clearly not the case since they did finally offer a real deal and it got done. Its not the players job to give the team a discount especially not one that waited until they were close to free agency to offer an extension.
...
I'm not against market value.
Lamar, after seeing Watson got an all guaranteed deal, was insistent on getting the same. This was the main issue. Watson's deal was clearly an outlier and a mistake.
@thisistheshow said:
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
..
Ravens fans want to hear him say that he's just focussed on winning a SB. That's it. And the narrative from fans was overwhelmingly negative towards him when the deal wasn't getting done.
Maybe I am just seeing things differently than you.
A generic answer doesnt really change anything. A historic season would almost certainly put them in the playoffs.
I'll never get why fans are so against players getting their market value. They wouldnt walk into their own jobs and say you can pay me less than Im worth and can cut me for any reason at any time and not have to pay me, but thats what is expected of players.
The deal wasnt getting done because the Ravens werent putting out a reasonable deal. If they wanted to move on from him and didn't believe in him thats fine, but thats clearly not the case since they did finally offer a real deal and it got done. Its not the players job to give the team a discount especially not one that waited until they were close to free agency to offer an extension.
...
I'm not against market value.
Lamar, after seeing Watson got an all guaranteed deal, was insistent on getting the same. This was the main issue. Watson's deal was clearly an outlier and a mistake.
A large portion of the deal being assured is the new norm for QBs tough. Watsons deal wasnt as much of an outlier as it may seem. You can certainly argue whether or not he is actually worth it, but Murry, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Hurts etc, theyre all getting over a 100 million guaranteed and most of the time well over 100 million. Fighting for guaranteed money has been a big issue for players forever and the QBs are the ones that have to lead the way. Without the guaranteed money you could sign a 1 billion dollar contract and it wouldnt matter if you could be cut tomorrow and owed nothing.
Hurts ended up helping the deal along as Jackson just took that contract and added dollar signs to it. Given what he agreed too he wasnt being unreasonable especially since they were going to have to give him a big payday with the franchise tag anyways.
@perkdog said:
Lamar will not throw for 5k yards, not a chance he will get 6k
Do I think hell be the first to 6k no, but 5k isnt out of the question. Hes never had any weapons to throw to besides a TE in Baltimore. OBJ could easily be worth 1k on his own. He actually was more of a passer that would run in college, but if theres nothing to work with like his pro career has seen you have to run more. Its certainly possible that hes had to do that so long now that hes not a passer anymore though
@perkdog said:
Lamar will not throw for 5k yards, not a chance he will get 6k
Do I think hell be the first to 6k no, but 5k isnt out of the question. Hes never had any weapons to throw to besides a TE in Baltimore. OBJ could easily be worth 1k on his own. He actually was more of a passer that would run in college, but if theres nothing to work with like his pro career has seen you have to run more. Its certainly possible that hes had to do that so long now that hes not a passer anymore though
Eh, he hasn't shown much to even consider himself to be a candidate for 5k yards, he is 28th in career completion percentage and the guys above him have had way better situations and failed to hit the 5k mark.
Nothing in sports is impossible but I'm going on record saying it's extremely unlikely that he will sniff 4500 yards let alone 5k
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
....
There are many parts to the issue of the contracts.
I am critical of the stance that Jackson took, but that doesn't mean that I am against the players getting "fairly" paid. I put fairly in quotations because, as I have talked about before, I believe that the salaries have blown away past any actual economic model which is justified. And I say that for the owners profits as well. This is, however, a separate conversation, though it does tie together.
Jackson was insistent on getting a fully guaranteed contract after Watson got his. This is where he dug his heels in. The other QBs who signed after Watson didn't get fully guaranteed deals. Jackson still wanted that. This is fact. Me saying this doesn't mean I am going against the players/s. Jackson didn't play in the playoffs, despite being able to, because he both didn't want to risk injury and wanted to make a point. The fact remains that he could have already had his contract by then. Getting to the playoffs is not a given. I would want my QB giving it all if a chance to get to the SB is there. Lots of things about his attitude rub me the wrong way.
He's not the only one. I have a harder and harder time with professional athletes, celebrities, the media, pop culture, etc in general. I want to watch sports as an escape. They insist on inundating us with nonsense, propaganda, and brainwashing garbage.
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
The NFL would fold if they were forced to give out guaranteed contracts. Every sport is unique and has its own sets of challenges and this is the NFL’s. It’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t work; the examples are innumerable and the incentive to come back and take the punishment weekly and annually is lessened tremendously with guaranteed money. I also look around the sporting world, on a macro level, and see big player paydays ruining franchises more often than not.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
The NFL would fold if they were forced to give out guaranteed contracts. Every sport is unique and has its own sets of challenges and this is the NFL’s. It’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t work; the examples are innumerable and the incentive to come back and take the punishment weekly and annually is lessened tremendously with guaranteed money. I also look around the sporting world, on a macro level, and see big player paydays ruining franchises more often than not.
...
To make the contracts fully guaranteed, I believe that the business model would have to be tweaked. I don't think you could just have everything stay the same, money wise, etc, and just make them fully guaranteed. There would be shorter deals, I believe. Incentives would have to become an even bigger part of it. Etc.
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
The NFL would fold if they were forced to give out guaranteed contracts. Every sport is unique and has its own sets of challenges and this is the NFL’s. It’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t work; the examples are innumerable and the incentive to come back and take the punishment weekly and annually is lessened tremendously with guaranteed money. I also look around the sporting world, on a macro level, and see big player paydays ruining franchises more often than not.
they would most certainly not fold. the NFL has more revenue than any of the other big 4. There is still the salary cap in place. to keep salaries down. teams already use insurance on the big contracts as well.
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
The NFL would fold if they were forced to give out guaranteed contracts. Every sport is unique and has its own sets of challenges and this is the NFL’s. It’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t work; the examples are innumerable and the incentive to come back and take the punishment weekly and annually is lessened tremendously with guaranteed money. I also look around the sporting world, on a macro level, and see big player paydays ruining franchises more often than not.
they would most certainly not fold. the NFL has more revenue than any of the other big 4. There is still the salary cap in place. to keep salaries down. teams already use insurance on the big contracts as well.
I think you are underestimating the cost and impact of insurance.
Depending on the player and position, it costs any where from 50% to 80% of the cost of the contract to insure the contract. Think about the guys drafted each year who are gone by year two or three of their rookie deal? Like, not gone from the team but gone from football. So in a world where Joe Burrow signs a $500 million dollar guaranteed deal, it costs (approximately, of course) $800 million total after insurance I think it’s quite plausible that many small market franchises collapse the system by going belly up or non competitive. Since sports franchises and insurance companies are for profit businesses, they are subject to profits and losses and they can’t both keep paying out forever…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@perkdog said:
Lamar will not throw for 5k yards, not a chance he will get 6k
Do I think hell be the first to 6k no, but 5k isnt out of the question. Hes never had any weapons to throw to besides a TE in Baltimore. OBJ could easily be worth 1k on his own. He actually was more of a passer that would run in college, but if theres nothing to work with like his pro career has seen you have to run more. Its certainly possible that hes had to do that so long now that hes not a passer anymore though
Eh, he hasn't shown much to even consider himself to be a candidate for 5k yards, he is 28th in career completion percentage and the guys above him have had way better situations and failed to hit the 5k mark.
Nothing in sports is impossible but I'm going on record saying it's extremely unlikely that he will sniff 4500 yards let alone 5k
Hes a better passer than he gets credit for the receiving core in Baltimore really just had been that bad besides TE. I wouldnt bet on him to do it, but it wouldnt surprise me. Dont forget with the extra game now those 18 guys that finished between 4800 and 5k would have almost certainly cracked 5k. Theres another 13 that finished above 4700 and and a number more that were just shy of 4700.
Between all the rules to make everything harder on the secondary and protect QBs and the extra game, the 5k mark just simply isnt going to be what it used to be. As long as teams dont start doing load management and sitting their QBs I would expect multiple current QBs to be getting those 5k seasons over the next couple years
@perkdog said:
Lamar will not throw for 5k yards, not a chance he will get 6k
Do I think hell be the first to 6k no, but 5k isnt out of the question. Hes never had any weapons to throw to besides a TE in Baltimore. OBJ could easily be worth 1k on his own. He actually was more of a passer that would run in college, but if theres nothing to work with like his pro career has seen you have to run more. Its certainly possible that hes had to do that so long now that hes not a passer anymore though
Eh, he hasn't shown much to even consider himself to be a candidate for 5k yards, he is 28th in career completion percentage and the guys above him have had way better situations and failed to hit the 5k mark.
Nothing in sports is impossible but I'm going on record saying it's extremely unlikely that he will sniff 4500 yards let alone 5k
Hes a better passer than he gets credit for the receiving core in Baltimore really just had been that bad besides TE. I wouldnt bet on him to do it, but it wouldnt surprise me. Dont forget with the extra game now those 18 guys that finished between 4800 and 5k would have almost certainly cracked 5k. Theres another 13 that finished above 4700 and and a number more that were just shy of 4700.
Between all the rules to make everything harder on the secondary and protect QBs and the extra game, the 5k mark just simply isnt going to be what it used to be. As long as teams dont start doing load management and sitting their QBs I would expect multiple current QBs to be getting those 5k seasons over the next couple years
@craig44 said:
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
The players just simply dont have the leverage because of financial situations. Many of them are broke shortly after they leave the league and dont have the ability for a strike or lockout to force it because of that. Now with the NIL in college that could potentially change as a number of these players will make millions in college before ever signing an NFL contract. If theyre smart with the money in college they could be in a position where they could have a real strike/lockout on the next CBA and force some language in there that at least requires a percentage of contracts to be guaranteed.
@fergie23 said:
1951WheatiesPremium,
Where did you get your info on the cost of insurance? Insurance doesn't cost 50-80% of the cost of the contract.
Robb
Basically no NFL contract is insured because its not guaranteed, but those numbers are definitely way to high. Theres no point insuring something at those costs.
I'm guessing he misread a post about insurance on baseball contracts. Its usually like 10 percent for position players and a little more for pitchers. Teams can chose how much of the contract to insure and many claim that most only insure 50-80% of the value of the contract which keeps premiums down while still having insurance pay the majority of the contract in the case of injury
@fergie23 said:
1951WheatiesPremium,
Where did you get your info on the cost of insurance? Insurance doesn't cost 50-80% of the cost of the contract.
Robb
A combination of typing too quickly and the fact that I’m guesstimating a little bit. Apologies. Hers a second attempt:
I am basing this off baseball. Baseball has guaranteed contracts.
In baseball, insurers are only willing to ensure 50 - 80% of the contract’s total value on average. Insurance coverage costs any where from 10-20% of the average annual value, usually in three year intervals. Higher for pitchers, as expected.
Again, this is from baseball where contracts are already guaranteed but it’s not also not exactly apples to apples as football carries significantly greater injury risk which I’m guessing is factored in with higher premiums.
The Mets and Steve Cohen literally passed on Carlos Correa this off-season because they couldn’t insure his contract. The richest owner in the sport passed because of issues getting insurance for his contract.
It’s a bigger factor than people realize and this is in a sport with less player attrition…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@fergie23 said:
1951WheatiesPremium,
Where did you get your info on the cost of insurance? Insurance doesn't cost 50-80% of the cost of the contract.
Robb
A combination of typing too quickly and the fact that I’m guesstimating a little bit. Apologies. Hers a second attempt:
I am basing this off baseball. Baseball has guaranteed contracts.
In baseball, insurers are only willing to ensure 50 - 80% of the contract’s total value on average. Insurance coverage costs any where from 10-20% of the average annual value, usually in three year intervals. Higher for pitchers, as expected.
Again, this is from baseball where contracts are already guaranteed but it’s not also not exactly apples to apples as football carries significantly greater injury risk which I’m guessing is factored in with higher premiums.
The Mets and Steve Cohen literally passed on Carlos Correa this off-season because they couldn’t insure his contract. The richest owner in the sport passed because of issues getting insurance for his contract.
It’s a bigger factor than people realize and this is in a sport with less player attrition…
Insurers are willing to insure baseball contracts 100% if the team wants to pay the price. Teams have made calculations that the 50-80 range is more cost effective for them. They arent signing guys expecting them to get hurt, but will want some coverage on the massive contracts. The majority of MLB contracts arent insured at all
The Mets didnt pass because of insurance the Mets passed because they made a fool of themselves and changed their mind. They knew exactly what was on his physical when they signed him after his first contract fell apart and then let if fall apart again. Nothing changed in that week or so but they changed their mind and did the exact same thing. Theres some other rumors they negotiated in bad faith offering him a deal they knew he would take to then try and get him to agree to a reduced price using the medical reports against him.
The Giants and Mets both could have gotten insurance on Correra if they wanted to, they didnt want to pay the price and used it as an excuse to get out of the deals over a surgery he had years ago in the minors.
Minor league players can take out insurance on future paydays, college athletes including college football players can and do take out insurance on future earnings for many of the star players. Insurance isnt an issue for the NFL, they just arent in the business of guaranteeing something or spending money on someone unless they have too
@fergie23 said:
1951WheatiesPremium,
Where did you get your info on the cost of insurance? Insurance doesn't cost 50-80% of the cost of the contract.
Robb
Basically no NFL contract is insured because its not guaranteed, but those numbers are definitely way to high. Theres no point insuring something at those costs.
I'm guessing he misread a post about insurance on baseball contracts. Its usually like 10 percent for position players and a little more for pitchers. Teams can chose how much of the contract to insure and many claim that most only insure 50-80% of the value of the contract which keeps premiums down while still having insurance pay the majority of the contract in the case of injury
You’re summation is excellent but you also buried the lead. So I bolded it.
You hit the mail on the head - it gets to the point where it’s cost prohibitive to insure. And THE richest owner and highest payroll team in MLB balked at signing Correa because the cost of insurance was too cost prohibitive.
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It would also help that he not throw the ball away when not provoked or necessarily rushed. And he certainly has better protection with a better running attack than Allen or Burrows. Also bottom line he has choked any playoff game with any meaning whatsoever. Good player, NOT great and the money he is asking crazy. Watson certainly did not help it any...
I don't think that a city-named or state-named team really changes anything. I do like the model of Green Bay as a team but look at what they have had to put up with over the last couple of years with their QB!
Well, just Love coins, period.
Allen and Burrows both has elite WRs and Allen can be argued blew some games. Burrows big stud and matching an elite QB with and elite college WR teammate that teams have done is smart, but it doesnt change the fact that Jackson has has an average at best WR core. He wouldnt be my first pick but there have been college teams that have had a better WR core than the slop hes had to work with
Lamar just got paid. 5yrs 260M w/185M guaranteed. He now has the highest AAV in NFL history at 52M
Eric
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Uh Oh - Deshaun is gonna want a raise - (not that kind of raise)
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Like I've said, and I repeat, each new big contract will often set a record for annual, total, or guaranteed. For the most part these guys have been happy to have their deal be one of the three.
Lamar could have gotten a very good deal awhile ago, and then been further along and ready to get something even better.
If you hold out to be the most yearly, the most ever, and the most guaranteed, or all guaranteed, you might find that in the end you did yourself a disservice.
Obviously, for Lamar, he was going to be rich either way, so it's not like some sub-level player turning down a deal then regretting it forever.
However, Lamar might have done himself a disservice if he cares about the perception of some of his fans. But truth be told, he has plenty of fans and plenty of people who supported him all along. So it probably doesn't matter.
If he fails to have a career trajectory worthy of not just his contract but more importantly what many saw/see as his potential, these contract issues will be oft discussed and will linger for some as not only a mark against him but also as a reason why his body of work should be seen as less. He will now be hyper-criticized more frequently than he would have been.
Its never a disservice to get the most yearly, thats how you maximize earnings. It would be nice though if we could lessen the focus on highest ever every time. Every top QB is going to be the new highest ever
Jackson is smarter than people think though. He basically let Hurts agent negotiate his contract for free with the Hurts deal and then just added some millions for his contract
These guys just get what they want
The Ravens have just been had...............
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So Lamar,who has never thrown for more than 3200 passing yards in a season, wants to throw for 6000 passing yards now that the Ravens have added Odell Beckham Jr,Nelson Agholor & Zay Flowers.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/37414506/lamar-jackson-ravens-new-wrs-want-throw-6k-yards
Eric
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260 MM plus the MM's he would have paid to an agent.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He's only had 3 games with 300+ yards and ONE of 400+ yards. He'd have to average a bit over 350 yards every game this coming season for 6000 - not happening. Plus he can't get any passing yards sitting injured on the bench.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
With better playmakers a 4000-5000K season is definitely realistic but to jump to an all time record really isn't.
Eric
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They all say things like that though. He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive. Would you rather he say he hopes to have an average year? Is he going to break a record probably not, but theyve never really put weapons around him and their GM even admitted that
He did win a Heisman at Louisville which is very impressive.
Doesn't mean that much in the NFL when it comes to QBs. Other Heisman Trophy Winners include Baker Mayfield, Johnny Manziel, and DoubleDragon's favorite QB - Cam Newton
!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Newton was fine for a while in the NFL. The point was that there is talent there and even the Ravens GM on video has admitted they havent given him enough to work with. Do I think hes the best QB no, could you do much worse certainly. No reason to root for him to fail and if hes not confident he will fail. NFL has more than enough billions they make every year to pay him and the other QBs
He could have phrased it better, and said that he wants to have an unprecedented passing year.
To put it like he did just makes people focus on how it sounds like hyperbole.
Didn't he also win an MVP award in year 2or3 too? I think he would have been better off just saying hopefully this leads to the Ravens going deeper in the playoffs. That sounds better than pointing to a 6K passing yards season when everyone will,and did,point out that his best passing season was around half that number.
Its great that the Ravens not only invested in him but also put enough upgrades around him to help him develop his passing game more.
Eric
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1 Kings 20:11. Brag about what you did, not what you are going to do.
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Ralph
He won the 2019 MVP. You have to have that confidence and desire to reach such goals as a pro athlete especially one thats at that level. I'd be far more concerned if I was a fan of a team that wasnt hoping to do such things.
Its now a 17 game season in a passing league that really limits what DBs can do to WRs and QBs basically cant be hit anymore. A 6k passing season is going to happen at some point. Other than the one Marino season everyone over 5 has been since 2008 and most have been after 2013.
If you look at the most passing yards in a season other than Marino and Fouts the top 35 all happened after 2007 and Brady and Breese were the only ones in the 2000s. 31 of the 35 are in the last 10-12 years and its increasing. I dont know if it will happen this year but theres multiple active QBs that have had 5k+ seasons and two are pretty young.
I would bet in the next 5 years we see a 6k from someone, I dont think it will be Lamar but I wont blame him for wanting it to be him
If I was a Ravens fan, I would feel like he gets focussed on the wrong things. Fully guaranteed deal just because Watson got one. Now 6k passing yards. I am sure that Ravens fans didn't like that comment.
Why wouldnt a fan of a team love that one of their players wants to be the best with a historically great season?
Also every player in the league is focused on getting as much guaranteed money as possible. Its a job and a business and every team will cut someone in a second and not pay them a cent more than required
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Ravens fans want to hear him say that he's just focussed on winning a SB. That's it. And the narrative from fans was overwhelmingly negative towards him when the deal wasn't getting done.
Maybe I am just seeing things differently than you.
A generic answer doesnt really change anything. A historic season would almost certainly put them in the playoffs.
I'll never get why fans are so against players getting their market value. They wouldnt walk into their own jobs and say you can pay me less than Im worth and can cut me for any reason at any time and not have to pay me, but thats what is expected of players.
The deal wasnt getting done because the Ravens werent putting out a reasonable deal. If they wanted to move on from him and didn't believe in him thats fine, but thats clearly not the case since they did finally offer a real deal and it got done. Its not the players job to give the team a discount especially not one that waited until they were close to free agency to offer an extension.
I dont believe him to be the most well spoken guy. listen to about any interview he gives.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
...
I'm not against market value.
Lamar, after seeing Watson got an all guaranteed deal, was insistent on getting the same. This was the main issue. Watson's deal was clearly an outlier and a mistake.
A large portion of the deal being assured is the new norm for QBs tough. Watsons deal wasnt as much of an outlier as it may seem. You can certainly argue whether or not he is actually worth it, but Murry, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Hurts etc, theyre all getting over a 100 million guaranteed and most of the time well over 100 million. Fighting for guaranteed money has been a big issue for players forever and the QBs are the ones that have to lead the way. Without the guaranteed money you could sign a 1 billion dollar contract and it wouldnt matter if you could be cut tomorrow and owed nothing.
Hurts ended up helping the deal along as Jackson just took that contract and added dollar signs to it. Given what he agreed too he wasnt being unreasonable especially since they were going to have to give him a big payday with the franchise tag anyways.
No reason to root for him to fail and if hes not confident he will fail.
As long as he's in the AFC NORTH and playing against the Browns, I HAVE to root for him to fail -
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Well thats a completely different story lol. You better be rooting for everyone to have bad games against the Browns lol.
Lamar will not throw for 5k yards, not a chance he will get 6k
Do I think hell be the first to 6k no, but 5k isnt out of the question. Hes never had any weapons to throw to besides a TE in Baltimore. OBJ could easily be worth 1k on his own. He actually was more of a passer that would run in college, but if theres nothing to work with like his pro career has seen you have to run more. Its certainly possible that hes had to do that so long now that hes not a passer anymore though
Eh, he hasn't shown much to even consider himself to be a candidate for 5k yards, he is 28th in career completion percentage and the guys above him have had way better situations and failed to hit the 5k mark.
Nothing in sports is impossible but I'm going on record saying it's extremely unlikely that he will sniff 4500 yards let alone 5k
I think he should get to 4k yards before he starts talking about 6k.
as far as guaranteed contracts, I am really surprised the NFL players union has not forced the issue more. the NFL is the only one of the big 4 north american sports where guaranteed contracts are not the norm. I will almost always side with the players over owners in issues regarding money.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
....
There are many parts to the issue of the contracts.
I am critical of the stance that Jackson took, but that doesn't mean that I am against the players getting "fairly" paid. I put fairly in quotations because, as I have talked about before, I believe that the salaries have blown away past any actual economic model which is justified. And I say that for the owners profits as well. This is, however, a separate conversation, though it does tie together.
Jackson was insistent on getting a fully guaranteed contract after Watson got his. This is where he dug his heels in. The other QBs who signed after Watson didn't get fully guaranteed deals. Jackson still wanted that. This is fact. Me saying this doesn't mean I am going against the players/s. Jackson didn't play in the playoffs, despite being able to, because he both didn't want to risk injury and wanted to make a point. The fact remains that he could have already had his contract by then. Getting to the playoffs is not a given. I would want my QB giving it all if a chance to get to the SB is there. Lots of things about his attitude rub me the wrong way.
He's not the only one. I have a harder and harder time with professional athletes, celebrities, the media, pop culture, etc in general. I want to watch sports as an escape. They insist on inundating us with nonsense, propaganda, and brainwashing garbage.
The NFL would fold if they were forced to give out guaranteed contracts. Every sport is unique and has its own sets of challenges and this is the NFL’s. It’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t work; the examples are innumerable and the incentive to come back and take the punishment weekly and annually is lessened tremendously with guaranteed money. I also look around the sporting world, on a macro level, and see big player paydays ruining franchises more often than not.
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...
To make the contracts fully guaranteed, I believe that the business model would have to be tweaked. I don't think you could just have everything stay the same, money wise, etc, and just make them fully guaranteed. There would be shorter deals, I believe. Incentives would have to become an even bigger part of it. Etc.
they would most certainly not fold. the NFL has more revenue than any of the other big 4. There is still the salary cap in place. to keep salaries down. teams already use insurance on the big contracts as well.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think you are underestimating the cost and impact of insurance.
Depending on the player and position, it costs any where from 50% to 80% of the cost of the contract to insure the contract. Think about the guys drafted each year who are gone by year two or three of their rookie deal? Like, not gone from the team but gone from football. So in a world where Joe Burrow signs a $500 million dollar guaranteed deal, it costs (approximately, of course) $800 million total after insurance I think it’s quite plausible that many small market franchises collapse the system by going belly up or non competitive. Since sports franchises and insurance companies are for profit businesses, they are subject to profits and losses and they can’t both keep paying out forever…
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Guaranteed contracts would not cause the NFL to fold. They would tweak the salary cap model to account for injured players on guaranteed contracts.
Robb
1951WheatiesPremium,
Where did you get your info on the cost of insurance? Insurance doesn't cost 50-80% of the cost of the contract.
Robb
Hes a better passer than he gets credit for the receiving core in Baltimore really just had been that bad besides TE. I wouldnt bet on him to do it, but it wouldnt surprise me. Dont forget with the extra game now those 18 guys that finished between 4800 and 5k would have almost certainly cracked 5k. Theres another 13 that finished above 4700 and and a number more that were just shy of 4700.
Between all the rules to make everything harder on the secondary and protect QBs and the extra game, the 5k mark just simply isnt going to be what it used to be. As long as teams dont start doing load management and sitting their QBs I would expect multiple current QBs to be getting those 5k seasons over the next couple years
Fair points
The players just simply dont have the leverage because of financial situations. Many of them are broke shortly after they leave the league and dont have the ability for a strike or lockout to force it because of that. Now with the NIL in college that could potentially change as a number of these players will make millions in college before ever signing an NFL contract. If theyre smart with the money in college they could be in a position where they could have a real strike/lockout on the next CBA and force some language in there that at least requires a percentage of contracts to be guaranteed.
Basically no NFL contract is insured because its not guaranteed, but those numbers are definitely way to high. Theres no point insuring something at those costs.
I'm guessing he misread a post about insurance on baseball contracts. Its usually like 10 percent for position players and a little more for pitchers. Teams can chose how much of the contract to insure and many claim that most only insure 50-80% of the value of the contract which keeps premiums down while still having insurance pay the majority of the contract in the case of injury
A combination of typing too quickly and the fact that I’m guesstimating a little bit. Apologies. Hers a second attempt:
I am basing this off baseball. Baseball has guaranteed contracts.
In baseball, insurers are only willing to ensure 50 - 80% of the contract’s total value on average. Insurance coverage costs any where from 10-20% of the average annual value, usually in three year intervals. Higher for pitchers, as expected.
Again, this is from baseball where contracts are already guaranteed but it’s not also not exactly apples to apples as football carries significantly greater injury risk which I’m guessing is factored in with higher premiums.
The Mets and Steve Cohen literally passed on Carlos Correa this off-season because they couldn’t insure his contract. The richest owner in the sport passed because of issues getting insurance for his contract.
It’s a bigger factor than people realize and this is in a sport with less player attrition…
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Insurers are willing to insure baseball contracts 100% if the team wants to pay the price. Teams have made calculations that the 50-80 range is more cost effective for them. They arent signing guys expecting them to get hurt, but will want some coverage on the massive contracts. The majority of MLB contracts arent insured at all
The Mets didnt pass because of insurance the Mets passed because they made a fool of themselves and changed their mind. They knew exactly what was on his physical when they signed him after his first contract fell apart and then let if fall apart again. Nothing changed in that week or so but they changed their mind and did the exact same thing. Theres some other rumors they negotiated in bad faith offering him a deal they knew he would take to then try and get him to agree to a reduced price using the medical reports against him.
The Giants and Mets both could have gotten insurance on Correra if they wanted to, they didnt want to pay the price and used it as an excuse to get out of the deals over a surgery he had years ago in the minors.
Minor league players can take out insurance on future paydays, college athletes including college football players can and do take out insurance on future earnings for many of the star players. Insurance isnt an issue for the NFL, they just arent in the business of guaranteeing something or spending money on someone unless they have too
You’re summation is excellent but you also buried the lead. So I bolded it.
You hit the mail on the head - it gets to the point where it’s cost prohibitive to insure. And THE richest owner and highest payroll team in MLB balked at signing Correa because the cost of insurance was too cost prohibitive.
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