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Draped Bust Half Dollar grading question
Piano1
Posts: 233 ✭✭✭
Hello, everyone. I'm looking on eBay at draped bust half dollars to try to get an idea of how a piece that I have might grade compared to other certified eBay examples. Regarding the coin in the link below, I have a question.
It is certified as VG-8 but I am curious about the dig on the reverse just below the eagle's jaw. Is this considered an acceptable mint-caused flaw or should the coin get a "details" grade? I have a hard time sometimes between "details grading" and when a coin is acceptable with a flaw. (I assume this might be a planchet flaw?). Your thoughts would go far to clear this up in my mind.
Thanks.
Piano1
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Doesn't look like a dig to me. Even if it were it would probably straight grade, the grading services are much more lenient on early issues and will forgive cleaning and damage that wouldn't pass muster on capped bust and later coins. All in all it looks like a nice wholesome piece.
I doubt it would get a CAC bean but obviously it is Market Acceptable, but at what price ?
That looks like a great circulated coin to me! That ding in the eagle's head isn't that distracting and is probably why it received a straight grade. It isn't deep, big or purposeful enough to warrant a details grade, IMO.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
I don’t think it’s a dig. It looks like a lamination to me. If so, it is a mint related cause and would not lower grade, especially for a coin that is graded VG.
Nothing wrong with eBay as pictures vary everywhere but I might look other places to be able to compare grading standards. Coinfacts is a great resource with lots of Trueviews by grade. Heritage Auctions probably has the most consistently good/realistic photos and easy website to use. Great Collections also has great archives but image quality can vary.
Also, not as many varied pictures to choose from but I love this book and in combination with the wealth of photos online you can do okay (not as good as looking in hand but reasonable). https://www.amazon.com/Grading-Coins-Photographs-David-Bowers/dp/0794836879
Honestly, for an 8, you could do a lot worse ... IMO
That's kind of sexy looking for an 8, and the ding, lamination, or whatever (quite possibly a lamination as Bill suggested) doesn't distract to me, at all. Call her the "thin eagle's neck" variety, or something
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Interestingly, the Seller says the PCGS label is wrong -- it should be O-108 (R.4-), not O-109 (R.6+).
That's a significant downgrade in rarity. Kudos to the Seller for honesty.
Anyway, I agree it is correctly straight-graded.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
I would like it even at F-12 and could make a case for VF-20 as I think most of the flat areas are due to strike weakness.
The "dig" can be easily overlooked. Could be a minor delamination like others said.
David Kahn is the seller, and he is very reputable.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
The reverse flaw (“dig”) looks mint-made to me. But if you’re interested in the coin, I suggest you ask the seller, as he will know and is a straight shooter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Looks like a nice coin, and the reverse issue appears like it may be a planchet issue... Good luck if you buy it... Cheers, RickO
not sure what you are looking at......
If you are referring to the opening above and between the S and the U of the banner, that is as struck and
shows the neck.
the reverse of all Drapped busts are like that
Probably a small planchet flaw as there is no cratering - ridges around the depression from displaced metal as metal does not compress. Not an issue unless it bothers the potential buyer. PCGS does a great job of grading this series IMO, I have over 100 examples. Many have small laminations, strike throughs, adjustment marks - they all tell a story of the early US Mint. I would gladly buy the OP coin if I needed the die marriage.
I get the sentiment but I think PCGS takes strike quality into consideration in the overall grade. While it’s frustrating, I reluctantly agree most of the time.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
Hello, everyone.
WOW! What an education I have received since I posted my initial question. You guys (and ladies?) are the best. Here are just a few thoughts I had.
That dig, or planchet flaw to the right and up from the S in Pluribus on the 1807 at the top f this post, whatever the cause, would remove this coin from consideration if I was shopping for a Draped Bust Half. I have my type set piece (purchased gee... maybe 15-20 years ago) that has made me happy for a long time and it still remains a favorite coin. Photos below.
I'm very "sensitive" to "planchet flaws" since NGC body bagged a nice 8 Reales coin from Peru (and misidentified it as well on the little label they stuck in the flip) because of a planchet flaw but I have since seen other coins with planchet flaws "make the grade" and be encapsulated without special notation. (I think I will post that story in a separate thread but I'm not sure it would belong under U.S. coin topics. Peru coins are not a hot topic on the foreign board and I built up a bit of a collection since my wife and I worked there for 4 years to pay off our college loans. Maybe I could squeak it in under "'a planchet flaw" or something to that effect???
Another thread I would like to start because the topic baffles me is; how do the graders determine between wear and "weak strike"?
Yet another thing that I have seen 2 sides of...a cleaned coin is a cleaned coin...no matter how well it was done (in my opinion). Still, some older stuff gets put in a slab with no notation...and some might be labeled as "Genuine" with the details grade. My 1803 Dollar has been cleaned, the seller even told me, but it is in a PCGS slab. It looks good but is just brighter than one might expect for a VF.
I have lots of questions and obviously, this is the right place to get great responses from a terrific and knowledgable group of collectors. This is a great place and I thank you all!
Now, since a Draped Bust half started this thread, here are photos of mine. The color is a bit too golden but I am still working on lighting.
Piano1
Darn, I did it again!!! SO sorry for the upside-down images!!
Piano1
@Piano1 asked:
First of all an experienced grader knows what series and dates have "weak strikes." Some of attributes they look for is the degree of luster remaining, and differentiating between the cumulative effects of circulation friction vs areas of a coin that are not struck up.
It can go a lot deeper. A "weak strike" may have had normal striking pressure but the strike may appear "weak" because of sunken dies, worn dies, dies out of parallel at strike, and other reasons.
I have a coin that was used as an example in the May/June 2022 PCGS Rare Coin Market Report. I am not surprised when PCGS was looking for a coin with a lousy strike they had to look no further than my collection. It is 1807 O-109a/T-2 (the T-2 is from Tompkin's newer book on the series in which numbers follow the emission order of die marriages). I have 5 examples of T-2 which I believe was experimental, without going into a lot of detail on that, the DM has attributes not found on any other DM for both dies and planchets. The obverse die sunk early in use and the central hair detail and eagle's head are not fully struck. Four of my T-2's are raw, and when placed obverse down on a flat surface they will rock back and forth because of the sunken die.
A sentence from the PCGS article "Differentiating as-minted striking incompleteness from circulation-induced wear has long been a source of frustration and debate among numismatists at all levels."
Ultimately, the grade doesn't matter to me, I like the coin and don't think about the grade. I care even less about the sticker on the slab:
Hello, Nysoto, and all.
Yours is a very informative post. The weak strike/wear issue is far too complicated for me but I learned some valuable things from you. Thanks for that.
In my (far too many) collecting years, I stayed away from weak strikes (often indicated by the seller in the good ole' days) and my U.S. type set is all certified by PCGS or NGC (a few ANACS thrown in there from MANY years ago). I just don't trust my grading abilities even though I have spent countless hours with many of the grading books going back to Brown and Dunn (did I remember that name correctly?) ANA Grading Guide (a few different editions), Photograde and some others. I "loved" grading my coins (though as time went on I started slabbing my coins or buying already slabbed ones.
Like you, I had to "like" a coin before I bought it but if that occurred and it was backed up by the slab, it came home with me. I'm pretty happy with all of my purchases over a lot of years. I attended many a good coin show along the way and met some great sellers at those shows.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me! I may be a relic, but I still enjoy learning.
Piano1