What is the "orange peel effect" on Morgan's?

[Deleted User]

It is my current interpretation that the OP affect is a positive attribute that shows originality of the coin. I've seen it in hand and it does affect the cartwheel quite a bit. Unless I am wrong and it shouldn't.
I'm sure many of you folks have Morgan's with this effect.
Can you post them and have a discussion about it?

jesbroken

Not a Morgan collector, but without photos, the first thing that comes to my mind is rusted dies.
Jim

FlyingAl

Never actually heard the term used for Morgans. It seems that it is most commonly used on 19th century proof gold and Indian cent Proofs, where the fields of the coins have a slightly textured and wavy effect that looks like an orange peel. The cause seems to be hotly debated, I will need to do more research before I take a stance.

Here's an excellent image from the forums:

braddick

Some mintstate gold also shares this characteristic.
I find it attractive.

lilolme

I also am unsure about what is being asked about. I will take a shot at it and ask if this 1890 O (not mine, just one I found on coinfacts) has the 'orange peel effect' that is being asked about in the OP.

On the obverse and reverse somewhat seen in some/most areas around the outer perimeter of the coin. Is that the look?

lilolme

Well I see flyingal also posted the same. Here is a page on it.

https://www.error-ref.com/orange-peel-texture/

ironmanl63

This is a term most commonly used for describing the fields of Indian Cent Proofs. It is very attractive and desired by collectors of such. FlyingAl has posted a fine example. You will usually pay a premium for a proof with orange peel Fields.

[Deleted User]

Maybe this will help. Matthew was discussing his high grade Morgan and he "coined" the phrase "orange peel effect" I picked up on it and want to learn more about this.
Here is a screenshot of the thread and comment.

[Deleted User]

@lilolme you nailed it. That's what I'm talking about. It's actually pretty cool to see. I have a coin that has total orange peel surfaces. It's a very interesting coin. I'm not a Morgan expert but that's the coin I have handled the most. I've literally have had a few hundred of them come and go basically for trading with other dealers. I do own a couple special Morgan's. This Morgan I have is much different than the rest. It's got a wire rim. Knockout strike and even the very few dings still show the same surface inside of what appear to be nicks. It's unusual. I've never seen anything like it before. It was my late Uncles and he bought it 40 years ago from an auction. I'm just trying to sort it out.
When looking at it this "orange peel" describes the entire surface.

jesbroken

@Watchtower said:
@lilolme you nailed it. That's what I'm talking about. It's actually pretty cool to see. I have a coin that has total orange peel surfaces. It's a very interesting coin. I'm not a Morgan expert but that's the coin I have handled the most. I've literally have had a few hundred of them come and go basically for trading with other dealers. I do own a couple special Morgan's. This Morgan I have is much different than the rest. It's got a wire rim. Knockout strike and even the very few dings still show the same surface inside of what appear to be nicks. It's unusual. I've never seen anything like it before. It was my late Uncles and he bought it 40 years ago from an auction. I'm just trying to sort it out.
When looking at it this "orange peel" describes the entire surface.

Let's see some photos please. I would like to see a Morgan with this effect. After explanation and no photos of Morgans, not sure I would like it or not.
Jim

messydesk

Atypical die erosion. Can also be accompanied by the die collapsing and leaving a ridge around the design elements. This had been called "overbuffed" dies in the past, but I don't believe this is correct.

zer0man

This orange peel look is found on some proof gold as was noted above. I have an 1896 proof half eagle which has the look. It is quite eye-appealing.
Here are a couple of previous forum discussions about it:
link 1
link 2

[Deleted User]

@FlyingAl that's the look exactly. It's much different than I am used to seeing on a 1921 Morgan. Die cracks and all. I am just thinking out loud that it could have been an early strike on a nice planchet after a die polishing. It's the only thing I can think of. Either that or it was some sort of presentation piece because it has seen 0 circulation that's for darn sure.

[Deleted User]

@zer0man those links are exactly what I needed to read. That nails it. Its what I thought myself.

lilolme

I went looking for a proof gold with the orange peel and this one I believe qualifies.
(Link2 from zer0man does not work for me but from Link1 is where I got the proof gold orange peel).

When you mention Morgans I do not think they have this same look. A similar look possibly but due to die erosion. See previous link above.

Since you mentioned 1921 Morgan I went looking for that also and here is one with the' texture' in most of the field but different.

As others have stated if you have pictures / photos of what you are looking at, then that would help.

.

.
Just saw this 1921 D with some 'texture' but also looks like it is about ready to end its die life.

messydesk

1921 Morgans that most often show this are the S mints.

FlyingAl

Ok - let's see if we can put some stuff to rest here.

First - the true "orange peel" effect is only found on brilliant proofs - usually cents and gold. It is believed that improper planchet annealing causes it. The Morgans above display traditional die deterioration. If you want to call it something else, fine, but it's not the same as the true "orange peel". I will never call die deterioration orange peel, and suggest no one else does so no one gets confused.

@lilolme's example of a Satin Proof double eagle does show a similar effect, but it's not orange peel. That is the surface of the dies, which are normal circulation dies used in a medal press. Each and every coin looks exactly like the above, but for true "orange peel" coins, the effect differs from piece to piece - again, it appears improper annealing causes it.

Here's another example of "orange peel", images by Heritage:

[Deleted User]

Taking images of this coin with inadequate equipment does nothing good to convey just how nice this coin is. I have my opinion of this coin in hand. I have shown images to other people and they have their opinion and perhaps the images I have been trying to take have been shared.
Whatever the case may be I have handled enough Morgan dollars to have seen the good and the bad. There is something really good about this coin. If there wasn't something interesting about this 1921 I would probably be spending more time talking about the 1882O Morgan I have just recently obtained.
Here are images of both coins. In my opinion this 1921 is special and need to see in to really pop out the luster and strike.
Anyway I brought it up so I will follow through.

[Deleted User]

Here is an image of the obverse in the holder in daylight. The reverse image is hard to see because it's in the holder and the holder is very thick.
Swirl marks on the reverse are from boring out the spot for the coin. They are not on the coin.

FlyingAl

@Watchtower

The 1921 appears to have been harshly cleaned, giving it an unnatural sheen and perhaps the "special look" you're talking about.

The 1880 appears to have nice PL surfaces, but it has a few reverse rim hits that might result in a Details grade depending on how bad they are in hand.

None of those coins exhibit the "orange peel" look that is found on proofs.

[Deleted User]

One more attempt because I want to get this right and I don't like to give up.

[Deleted User]

@FlyingAl I'm sorry but I disagree with your opinion.

[Deleted User]

Just curious if anyone can guess what this graded?

[Deleted User]

The 1880O is DMPL
I do not think the "rim hits" will affect the grade.
Here is a similar one but not the same. This is a PCGS 64

lilolme

Orange Peel I have only thought of on gold (don't know a thing about proof cents so maybe there also).

Now there is a small potential problem as this link (I posted previously) is using orange peel texture for the die erosion / deterioration look. I know nothing about what is official or not on the use of orange peel term with or without the texture thrown in.

https://www.error-ref.com/orange-peel-texture/

Orange Peel Texture
PART IV. Die Errors:
Die Deterioration / Die Deformation:
Die Deterioration:
Orange Peel Texture

[Deleted User]

@FlyingAl said:
Ok - let's see if we can put some stuff to rest here.

First - the true "orange peel" effect is only found on brilliant proofs - usually cents and gold. It is believed that improper planchet annealing causes it. The Morgans above display traditional die deterioration. If you want to call it something else, fine, but it's not the same as the true "orange peel". I will never call die deterioration orange peel, and suggest no one else does so no one gets confused.

@lilolme's example of a Satin Proof double eagle does show a similar effect, but it's not orange peel. That is the surface of the dies, which are normal circulation dies used in a medal press. Each and every coin looks exactly like the above, but for true "orange peel" coins, the effect differs from piece to piece - again, it appears improper annealing causes it.

Here's another example of "orange peel", images by Heritage:

Orange Peel is an actual term that can apply to any coin. I'm not trying to be difficult or abrasive. It's not in my nature.
I am trying to discuss coins. I don't need to be right all the time. I don't expect to be. However, there comes a time to speak up.

[Deleted User]

I decided to break out the scope. I cannot take images using my loop and my new camera is not set up yet so here are some images of the surfaces of my 1921 Morgan with natural uncleaned surfaces.
Let's take a closer look.

pursuitofliberty

@Watchtower said:
Orange Peel is an actual term that can apply to any coin. I'm not trying to be difficult or abrasive. It's not in my nature.
I am trying to discuss coins. I don't need to be right all the time. I don't expect to be. However, there comes a time to speak up.

Respectfully, many members here are probably going to disagree with you, on multiple points from above. @FlyingAl has posted so interesting information, some of which is spot on ... other parts may have some room for debate.

But if you are already so sure of yourself, why ask us?

I have been known (quite recently in fact!) to engage my mouth (keyboard) before my brain accepts, processes and considers everything presented ... but it seems I am constantly reminded I should listen more. Especially around here. Where serious knowledge and centuries of experience lurks in the shadows.

That said ... the '21 you posted is a dog. It is dipped and processed, 99.999999% sure. That is why it has that texture. If you think otherwise, please submit to our host and prove me wrong when it returns.

TomB

@Watchtower said:
One more attempt because I want to get this right and I don't like to give up.

If that coin really looks like the those images then it appears to have been heavily messed up or processed after leaving the US Mint.

[Deleted User]

@pursuitofliberty I am sorry you feel that way. I still disagree.
However, my concern is not to be right or to prove anyone wrong. What difference does it make its a 1921 Morgan.
I have shown no disrespect for the members here or there property.
I still think it's a nice coin and not a "dog" as you so unkindly chose to call my coin.
Seems a bit abrasive and if you take pleasure in that then it's your choice.
I do think otherwise and I will consider submitting it if I choose to. I have no interest in behaving childishly and "proving you wrong".
Let's be grown ups here and discuss numismatics. No reason to get so riled up.
To touch on your "why ask us" comment it's wasn't to ask anyone in particular it was to discuss the subject.
Instead for some reason I don't understand it feels as though it has turned into a personal attack where a person cannot disagree with someone without a person like yourself posting this-
That said ... the '21 you posted is a dog. It is dipped and processed, 99.999999% sure. That is why it has that texture. If you think otherwise, please submit to our host and prove me wrong when it returns.
I just don't understand why people become so hot headed. I don't behave that way. I behave on this forum the same way I would if we were talking in person. That's the way it should be.
With that said it's probably a good time to take a break from this forum. It now more than ever appears that a controlling clique exists not allowing for productive conversation.
I don't have any interest in these things. I'm here for numismatics.
With that said I wish you all well and good health.
Over and out Watchtower.

pursuitofliberty

@Watchtower said:
Taking images of this coin with inadequate equipment does nothing good to convey just how nice this coin is. I have my opinion of this coin in hand. I have shown images to other people and they have their opinion and perhaps the images I have been trying to take have been shared.
Whatever the case may be I have handled enough Morgan dollars to have seen the good and the bad. There is something really good about this coin. If there wasn't something interesting about this 1921 I would probably be spending more time talking about the 1882O Morgan I have just recently obtained.
Here are images of both coins. In my opinion this 1921 is special and need to see in to really pop out the luster and strike.
Anyway I brought it up so I will follow through.

>

For posterity

BTW, I'm not trying to be an ass (although a few people think I am one)

HOWEVER

I think you need to study a LOT more coins and pay a LOT more attention to natural surface quality characteristics and luster (and step away from the damn microscope) if you think the '21 you posted, which @TomB saved for posterity, qualifies for "There is something really good about this coin" in the sense that it is anything other than a processed AU details coin.

I wish you well.

All the best,

ricko

@FlyingAl has posted excellent information. I have seen what I believe to be true orange peel effect, only on gold and Indian cents. The similar phenomena on silver is similar, but, IMO, different in texture. Cheers, RickO

coastaljerseyguy

@ricko said:
@FlyingAl has posted excellent information. I have seen what I believe to be true orange peel effect, only on gold and Indian cents. The similar phenomena on silver is similar, but, IMO, different in texture. Cheers, RickO

Thanks all for clarification as I have learned something today. I have heard that term orange peel applied to Morgans for the rusted die impacts but it is way different to the coins pictured above. Below are 2 AU coins I have (1901 P & 1900 S) that have that rusted die look so the fields are not mirror or smooth like, but have that slightly bumpy or pimply look lacking good luster.

zer0man

Here is my amateurish attempt to get a picture of what I consider to be "orange peel" surfaces on the proof gold half eagle of mine I mentioned earlier:

@Watchtower I am sorry but I don't believe the Morgan you shared with us has the same type of surfaces.

lilolme

With all the different orange peel in this thread, don't forget that this is also orange peel.
.
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ElmerFusterpuck

I've heard this term also described for some Peace Dollars, especially for the 1924 Philly issues. I'll need to find the images for mine, they do show this effect fairly well.

telephoto1