Take aways from Heritage Early Coppers auction.

RLSnapper

Last night I spent 2 hours watching the live bidding from the Early Coppers auction. Top take aways:
Colonials- almost every lot sold at CDN price. Very little bidding.
Half Cents- weakest bidding of any group. Red half cents as low as 25% of PCGS price guide.
Large Cents- Early large cents sold below PCGS price guide but 1794 dated cents brought strong prices. Higher grade Turban cents brought strong prices as well. The biggest surprise to me was the strong bidding for Middle Date cents. Almost every lot brought strong prices from XF40 to MS63. There were 2 bidders that pushed a couple lots to twice PCGS price guide. Late Date cents brought strong bidding with almost every lot reaching or exceeding PCGS price guide. The 1856 PCGS MS66 I was interested in hammered at $4560 against PCGS price guide of $2650. Being the finest graded N-9 was worth a 2K premium even though it was not attributed on the holder. Once again coins with the Red designation were the only ones that performed poorly.
To sum it up...if you collect Colonials or half cents do so knowing when it comes time to sell you will struggle to break even. I know 1794 cents are strongly collected by themselves..would be a fun time trying to get all the Sheldon varieties. Middle Dates are hot...I may look at some raw XF coins to get into slabs...there is some potential there. Finally stay away from Red coins unless you play the registry game.
Snapper

Vasanti

I’m not an old copper collector at all. Why would red be undesirable?

DelawareDoons

@Vasanti said:
I’m not an old copper collector at all. Why would red be undesirable?

It won't stay red forever.

jerseyben

Doesnt surprise me and I spent a decade collecting ONLY old coppers. Its a niche area. Has its own grading standards and raw coins are market acceptable. Anecdotally, some colonials are hot right now (NJ's and Nova Constellatio). 1794 is its own animal and will always be in demand. Personally speaking, I think problem free large cents are undervalued. I pick up every problem free example I can find because sometimes you can find them in lower grades for around $30-50. Eventually these will "have their day in the sun".

Vasanti

@DelawareDoons said:

@Vasanti said:
I’m not an old copper collector at all. Why would red be undesirable?

It won't stay red forever.

Again, this isn't my area, but if an unslabbed coin managed to stay red for 150 years, is it likely to turn in a slab in the new owner’s lifetime (assuming it is properly cared for)?

ricko

Interesting auction results.... I can see the 1794 cents pulling premiums. Cheers, RickO

1630Boston

@RLSnapper said:
Last night I spent 2 hours watching the live bidding from the Early Coppers auction.

thanks for your analysis.
boston

Walkerguy21D

Thanks for posting this - I’ll have to go back to check this out.
I didn’t see anything I really wanted or needed when I received the auction notice, so it fell off my radar.

** The biggest surprise to me was the strong bidding for Middle Date cents. Almost every lot brought strong prices from XF40 to MS63.**

This is both good and bad news. These are my forte’, since deciding back around 1992 that these seemed to represent a good value. You could get attractive, meaty coins that were still somewhat scarce, without spending a fortune. And I put my money where my mouth was lol!
It’s good news that the many I own appear to have been rising in price recently, even the “dirt common” Randall hoard coins.
The bad news is that I still need some upgrades!

logger7

I checked the auction out and didn't see atypical results, many items went strong.

However I would be reluctant to do no reserve auctions even with HA. I tried that with a Goldberg auction because their employee said that I'd get better results if I changed some listings to no reserve and the coins went cheap.

DelawareDoons

@Vasanti said:

@DelawareDoons said:

@Vasanti said:
I’m not an old copper collector at all. Why would red be undesirable?

It won't stay red forever.

Again, this isn't my area, but if an unslabbed coin managed to stay red for 150 years, is it likely to turn in a slab in the new owner’s lifetime (assuming it is properly cared for)?

That depends on if its original red or uhhh... restored red.

Vasanti

Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

MidLifeCrisis

@RLSnapper said:
...if you collect Colonials or half cents do so knowing when it comes time to sell you will struggle to break even.

I did not follow the auction but I just scrolled thru the colonial lots, albeit quickly. I have a few observations:
- the quality of the coins was all over the place...it seemed to me that most were lower quality than I would accept.
- the results simply reflected the quality or lack thereof.
- Colonials in general are more challenging because of the planchet flaws and other minting anomalies commonly found, so if you collect colonials with a goal of doing more than breaking even, you better be very picky.

PerryHall

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

Walkerguy21D

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

The restored red is generally a faux red, with a pinkish hue, and usually results in a Genuine grade.
Apparently some expertly done in the past slipped through, but the services are generally very careful with these.

Nysoto

Monday night robo had some good deals. I was looking at the 1800 half cent P AU58 but did not bid because too many marks for 58, even had a sticker. Realized $2400, but realized $5760 eight months ago at Stack's. Ouch for the consignor.

MidLifeCrisis

@PerryHall said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

I wonder if he was famous before this or he became famous because of this. Doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer. Accidents happen but that's a helluva accident.

NeophyteNumismatist

@RLSnapper said: To sum it up...if you collect Colonials or half cents do so knowing when it comes time to sell you will struggle to break even. .

I am not sure I agree with this at all. It is difficult to understand the market for a series from one HA auction. If the coins are quality and higher grade they will certainly sell. I participated in the McGuigan collection auction and got blown away.

Last night's Half Cents that sold at lower premiums were certainly lower quality or problem coins. I am not surprised that VG half cents (and even AU middle/late dates) are not pulling large premiums, but if you look at the higher quality (and rare varieties), the items sold at market prices (especially when you add the juice). I didn't see any "deals" last night - the cheaper stuff was less than desirable for me.

PerryHall

@MidLifeCrisis said:

@PerryHall said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

I wonder if he was famous before this or he became famous because of this. Doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer. Accidents happen but that's a helluva accident.

Every year, the ANA gives out the "J. Sanford Saltus Award for Lifetime Achievement in Medallic Art".

Coin Finder

Thanks for the info!!

logger7

@PerryHall said:

@MidLifeCrisis said:

@PerryHall said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

I wonder if he was famous before this or he became famous because of this. Doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer. Accidents happen but that's a helluva accident.

Every year, the ANA gives out the "J. Sanford Saltus Award for Lifetime Achievement in Medallic Art".

http://numismatics.org/authority/saltus

BillJones

Half Cents- weakest bidding of any group. Red half cents as low as 25% of PCGS price guide.

First, I think that the grading services are no longer guaranteeing the color after a certain period of time. Second, sometimes that coins have been "helped" and are not stable. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. If the coin is in an old older, that is often a good sign. If it's in a new one, you might be taking a chance. This is the reason why I refuse to buy old red copper.

The 1856 PCGS MS66 I was interested in hammered at $4560 against PCGS price guide of $2650. Being the finest graded N-9 was worth a 2K premium even though it was not attributed on the holder.

It doesn't matter if it is in the holder. If more than one specialist expert notes that it is a rare variety, they are going to bid on it and drive it up to wherever they are willing to pay. The copper market is different from other areas in that respect. It has only been over the past decade where the coins had to be slabbed to bring the most money. Prior to that, many copper collectors wanted their coins raw.

jerseyben

@BillJones said:
It doesn't matter if it is in the holder. If more than one specialist expert notes that it is a rare variety, they are going to bid on it and drive it up to wherever they are willing to pay. The copper market is different from other areas in that respect. It has only been over the past decade where the coins had to be slabbed to bring the most money. Prior to that, many copper collectors wanted their coins raw.

I know some copper guys who won't even look at slabbed coins (for sale). I have known some to break out any slabbed coins they obtain, even expensive examples.

Walkerguy21D

Sorry, but I embraced slabs for large cents fairly early on, once I started spending serious money. Although a fair number were raw when I originally purchased them. And I still have a fair number of raw cents, duplicates, etc. that I enjoy.

Elcontador

@BillJones said:

Half Cents- weakest bidding of any group. Red half cents as low as 25% of PCGS price guide.

First, I think that the grading services are no longer guaranteeing the color after a certain period of time. Second, sometimes that coins have been "helped" and are not stable. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. If the coin is in an old older, that is often a good sign. If it's in a new one, you might be taking a chance. This is the reason why I refuse to buy old red copper.

The 1856 PCGS MS66 I was interested in hammered at $4560 against PCGS price guide of $2650. Being the finest graded N-9 was worth a 2K premium even though it was not attributed on the holder.

It doesn't matter if it is in the holder. If more than one specialist expert notes that it is a rare variety, they are going to bid on it and drive it up to wherever they are willing to pay. The copper market is different from other areas in that respect. It has only been over the past decade where the coins had to be slabbed to bring the most money. Prior to that, many copper collectors wanted their coins raw.

I'm with Bill on this. The only RD copper I have is an 09 P IHC in 5 RD which is in an OGH. Older material is all RB. I won't buy any pre 1815 copper unless it's in an OGH. Had an expensive BN 5 Draped Bust Half Cent start to develop PVC in holder (not an OGH) after I owned it for eight years.

marmac

As a collector of Half Cents, I was quite excited a couple months back to see the Early Copper auction on HA. As I followed the image postings leading up to the auction date, my excitement fizzled. Nothing of significant interest for me.

I suspect I wasn't the only Half Cent collector with those sentiments.

golden

I won one lot last night at a good advance over PCGS price guide. I am happy.

Glen2022

@PerryHall said:

@MidLifeCrisis said:

@PerryHall said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

I wonder if he was famous before this or he became famous because of this. Doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer. Accidents happen but that's a helluva accident.

Every year, the ANA gives out the "J. Sanford Saltus Award for Lifetime Achievement in Medallic Art".

Is the award a quart bottle of cyanide?

JW77

@PerryHall said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

In 1922, famous numismatist J. Sanford Saltus was restoring red to some large cents by dipping them in cyanide. He had a glass of ginger ale at the table he was working at in a glass similar to what the cyanide was in. While admiring his work, he grabbed the wrong glass and took a big gulp.

I assume he didn't see the sunrise the next morning!

JimW

I won one item at my max bid. It was a relatively low value coin, but the juice was nearly 25% of the acquisition price, i.e., my total cost. If the same coin was on ebay, I'd probably have bid about 25% higher - which would have mostly gone into the sellers pocket vs a third party. Nothing against HA - it is just that I think most of us look at our cost to obtain a coin, not so much how those costs are divided up...
The point being the seller would have likely made out better elsewhere.

jesbroken

Nice group of coppers, Greg. Didn't know you had so many.
Jim

Walkerguy21D

@jesbroken said:
Nice group of coppers, Greg. Didn't know you had so many.
Jim

Thanks Jim!

daltex

@RLSnapper said:
Last night I spent 2 hours watching the live bidding from the Early Coppers auction. Top take aways:
Colonials- almost every lot sold at CDN price. Very little bidding.
Half Cents- weakest bidding of any group. Red half cents as low as 25% of PCGS price guide.
Large Cents- Early large cents sold below PCGS price guide but 1794 dated cents brought strong prices. Higher grade Turban cents brought strong prices as well. The biggest surprise to me was the strong bidding for Middle Date cents. Almost every lot brought strong prices from XF40 to MS63. There were 2 bidders that pushed a couple lots to twice PCGS price guide. Late Date cents brought strong bidding with almost every lot reaching or exceeding PCGS price guide. The 1856 PCGS MS66 I was interested in hammered at $4560 against PCGS price guide of $2650. Being the finest graded N-9 was worth a 2K premium even though it was not attributed on the holder. Once again coins with the Red designation were the only ones that performed poorly.
To sum it up...if you collect Colonials or half cents do so knowing when it comes time to sell you will struggle to break even. I know 1794 cents are strongly collected by themselves..would be a fun time trying to get all the Sheldon varieties. Middle Dates are hot...I may look at some raw XF coins to get into slabs...there is some potential there. Finally stay away from Red coins unless you play the registry game.
Snapper

It's funny, I don't draw those conclusions at all. Even presuming this auction is representative, all it means is that the guides aren't completely accurate. Which we knew already.

If I were buying red half cents at this auction, I'd be paying 25% of guide, so if the guides weren't adjusted, when I went to sell ten years later, I'd expect to get 25% of guide. Similarly, if I were buying the middle date cents I'd've paid 150-200% of guide, but I'd also expect to get those results when I sold ten years from now.

lkenefic

Thanks for the report! I guess it's a little bit of good news/bad news for me. Good news in that I started getting serious about collecting Middle Dates a few years ago and bad news in that I still have a few dates to go to complete the set. The HA results seem to underscore what I've been seeing on ebay over the last year. Strong material from reputable sellers were hammering for strong prices. I was outbid in the last few seconds for at least a half-dozen XF-AU coins, and I put in bids that were a bit over PCGS price guide values... and these were all raw coins.

edited to add: here is one that I actually won....

DelawareDoons

@Walkerguy21D said:

@Vasanti said:
Interesting. I didn’t know you could restore red. I love learning here.

The restored red is generally a faux red, with a pinkish hue, and usually results in a Genuine grade.
Apparently some expertly done in the past slipped through, but the services are generally very careful with these.

I've seen some restos that would knock you off your feet. I know a guy who made a '77 in 64rd and its restored red. It looks fantastic, no idea how he did it. He said it's a permanent keeper for him so he clearly has faith in it staying red. Guys a magician.