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Buyer beware for newbies like me!

I am relatively new to coin collecting. I used to collect Morgan dollars but have since moved to collecting WLH's.
I know Morgan dollars are probably the most popular coin to collect. At least in the top 10.
I want to use a situation that presented itself to me to try to help anyone new to the hobby or anyone in general.
I believe this occurs with Morgan dollars frequently.
I was offered these coins at bargain "basement" prices.
If you find yourself in this tempting situation what would you do with these tpg coins and why?



Comments

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    ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At first glance I think they would probably cross as authentic. Not making any comments on straight grades except to say “not as a 66”

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    justindanjustindan Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Buy PCGS coins with CAC stickers. There is no reason to buy these morgan dollars.

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    bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They might cross but only at about MS60 or 61. These are a far cry from MS66. When buying from aftermarket slabs, make sure you can at least grade the coin. Most of these slabs have grades no where near what the coin actually is.

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ugh

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    Glen2022Glen2022 Posts: 844 ✭✭✭✭

    I would be very cautious. I have never heard of these TPG's. Not sure what expertise the USCG (US Coast Guard) has with respect to grading coins.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS 66 🤪

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Both look AU details to me.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Glen2022 said:
    I would be very cautious. I have never heard of these TPG's. Not sure what expertise the USCG (US Coast Guard) has with respect to grading coins.

    Some companies have adequate expertise, but choose to make a mockery of grading.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    dsessomdsessom Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That "TGP" doesn't even exist anymore. Go to www.uscoingrading.com and you get a GoDaddy page.

    Anyway, stay away from those junk coins. That one is so beat up that I doubt it would grade, and if it did, it would be a 60-61.

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    AtcarrollAtcarroll Posts: 343 ✭✭✭

    Basement slabbers. There are so many of these around, often with acronyms deliberately crafted to sound similar to the legitimate grading services. They do this deliberately to deceive the unaware.

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    @MFeld said:
    Severe over-grading occurs for all type of coins. There’s no need to single out Morgan Dollars, just because they’re popular.😉

    Man your on my case LOL!

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:

    @MFeld said:
    Severe over-grading occurs for all type of coins. There’s no need to single out Morgan Dollars, just because they’re popular.😉

    Man your on my case LOL!

    Not at all. Your caution to newbies is a good one. I’ve seen far too many buyers acquire coins they thought were bargains, but which in reality, were burials.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are three TPG's you can generally trust (PCGS, NGC and ANACS), although they may not grade all coins the same, and another soon (?) to be on the circuit (CAC).

    If you don't know how to grade raw coins, and tell if they are authentic (within reason), then do NOT expect you know what you are doing with third-tier self-slabbers.

    Because, in fact, those slabs can make it a lot harder to authenticate and see certain issues, and any grade stated may throw your grading thoughts. So they make it HARDER than grading raw.

    A guy I really like in the BHNC takes any coin he views in-hand with his thumb over the grade to remove the psychological effects of seeing the grade prior to seeing the coin.

    Do that with these. Tell me what PCGS would grade them.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    What is a really good buy? Do you know how many problems they have? Do you like them?

    Why would you want to spend money on problems?


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The only problems I see with these Morgans are that they are extremely overgraded. I may be missing something in the pics but I might consider them at AU prices.

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    jedmjedm Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    Only if you're buying them at bullion prices and cracking 'em and stacking 'em because then you only have to look at the edges! :)

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    There are no "bargains" in the US coin market. The market is very mature and very large. Define "really good buy".

    All glory is fleeting.
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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    Define a "good buy". If you could buy them at or less than spot as a bullion play then sure it could be worth it. Other than that very unlikely scenario there is no good reason to even bother with stuff like this.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    Shane6596Shane6596 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They look a little banged up to my untrained eye. If the good deal was like $25-30 bux a piece because he wanted to unload them, i would probably buy. If he was at 80-100 i would pass. Just my personal opinion.

    I dont buy coins as an investment or to resell. Anything i aquire goes in the pass it down to kids pile or give away to someone that might be interested in coin collecting.

    Guess it depends on what your looking to do with them.

    Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23

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    skier07skier07 Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Run Forrest run!

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    To me a good buy is purchasing a coin that is matched with my assesment of the grade and price. Hopefully a little less than average retail pricing or say guidebook pricing.
    I probably would have considered buying these back in October of 2022.
    Today I posted them to help someone who is in that same position but today.
    I would like to ask someone a little more experienced to "define a good buy".

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    bsshog40bsshog40 Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shane6596 said:
    They look a little banged up to my untrained eye. If the good deal was like $25-30 bux a piece because he wanted to unload them, i would probably buy. If he was at 80-100 i would pass. Just my personal opinion.

    I dont buy coins as an investment or to resell. Anything i aquire goes in the pass it down to kids pile or give away to someone that might be interested in coin collecting.

    Guess it depends on what your looking to do with them.

    I doubt you're going to get an 1892 for $25-30 unless AG and detailed.

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    Eldorado9Eldorado9 Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Horrible coins! If there are A' B, and C coins....I'd rate those F!

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    They have to be a good buy as a RAW coin. There's nothing wrong with buying a coin in a plastic holder. But only a few plastic holders figure into the calculation of value.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jedm said:

    @Watchtower said:
    What if they are a really good buy?
    Should I still buy them?

    Only if you're buying them at bullion prices and cracking 'em and stacking 'em because then you only have to look at the edges! :)

    No Morgan sells at "bullion prices". Even culls sell for significantly more than melt.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 10:05AM

    The only that that is true about those third party grading opinions is that the coin is authentic. The rest comes out of the end of a bull.

    Morgan Dollars are the most popular coin among collectors who spend serious money. There are more Lincoln cent and maybe still State Quarter collectors than Morgan Dollar collectors.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 3,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excellent album fillers.

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc

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    Shane6596Shane6596 Posts: 759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bsshog40 said:

    @Shane6596 said:
    They look a little banged up to my untrained eye. If the good deal was like $25-30 bux a piece because he wanted to unload them, i would probably buy. If he was at 80-100 i would pass. Just my personal opinion.

    I dont buy coins as an investment or to resell. Anything i aquire goes in the pass it down to kids pile or give away to someone that might be interested in coin collecting.

    Guess it depends on what your looking to do with them.

    I doubt you're going to get an 1892 for $25-30 unless AG and detailed.

    True.

    I have very little experience, so he probably would have asked for more than i was comfortable paying and i would have passed.

    Watchtower, what are the bargain basement prices? Just curious, in case i run into this situation.

    Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 10:13AM

    @Watchtower said:
    To me a good buy is purchasing a coin that is matched with my assesment of the grade and price. Hopefully a little less than average retail pricing or say guidebook pricing.
    I probably would have considered buying these back in October of 2022.
    Today I posted them to help someone who is in that same position but today.
    I would like to ask someone a little more experienced to "define a good buy".

    None of us have seen the coins. The coins like like they might have been cleaned but it is hard to tell from the photos.

    If they are not cleaned, the 1890 is a 45-50 ish coin to be a "good buy" and even cleaned is 30ish, so not much risk.

    The 1892 is trickier. It looks AU which would make it 100 to 125, but UNC is 400 and a cleaned coin is 30 bucks.

    Who is selling them? Given the value of the 1892, any knowledgeable person would know it was worth crossing even to ANACS which is cheap and fast. So why haven't they?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Watchtower said:
    To me a good buy is purchasing a coin that is matched with my assesment of the grade and price. Hopefully a little less than average retail pricing or say guidebook pricing.
    I probably would have considered buying these back in October of 2022.
    Today I posted them to help someone who is in that same position but today.
    I would like to ask someone a little more experienced to "define a good buy".

    None of us have seen the coins. The coins like like they might have been cleaned but it is hard to tell from the photos.

    If they are not cleaned, the 1890 is a 45-50 ish coin to be a "good buy" and even cleaned is 30ish, so not much risk.

    The 1892 is trickier. It looks AU which would make it 100 to 125, but UNC is 400 and a cleaned coin is 30 bucks.

    Who is selling them? Given the value of the 1892, any knowledgeable person would know it was worth crossing even to ANACS which is cheap and fast. So why haven't they?

    When coins are over-graded that badly and for sale, these are the two most likely scenarios:
    1) They’re up for auction and will be bid up above their fair market value, because clueless bidders will bid too much, (mistakenly) thinking they’re getting a bargain; 2) The listed asking price is considerably above fair market value.
    In other words, it’s highly unlikely that they can be acquired for a reasonable price.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    @Shane6596
    That was a play on words.
    I've learned that these TPG's are referred to as basement slabs because someone will create these phoney slabs to deceive people out of their money with grades that are pure fiction.
    I posted this entire thread to help anyone new to the hobby avoid getting burned. I have been burned multiple times because I simply did not know better.
    I was told to buy books, ask questions here and learn as much as I can about what I want to collect.
    I now have all these tools that I did not have before. The rest is up to me. Nobody is going to hold my hand with all of my purchases. The answer is education and research.
    I hope this answers your question fully.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Watchtower said:
    To me a good buy is purchasing a coin that is matched with my assesment of the grade and price. Hopefully a little less than average retail pricing or say guidebook pricing.
    I probably would have considered buying these back in October of 2022.
    Today I posted them to help someone who is in that same position but today.
    I would like to ask someone a little more experienced to "define a good buy".

    None of us have seen the coins. The coins like like they might have been cleaned but it is hard to tell from the photos.

    If they are not cleaned, the 1890 is a 45-50 ish coin to be a "good buy" and even cleaned is 30ish, so not much risk.

    The 1892 is trickier. It looks AU which would make it 100 to 125, but UNC is 400 and a cleaned coin is 30 bucks.

    Who is selling them? Given the value of the 1892, any knowledgeable person would know it was worth crossing even to ANACS which is cheap and fast. So why haven't they?

    When coins are over-graded that badly and for sale, these are the two most likely scenarios:
    1) They’re up for auction and will be bid up above their fair market value, because clueless bidders will bid too much, (mistakenly) thinking they’re getting a bargain; 2) The listed asking price is considerably above fair market value.
    In other words, it’s highly unlikely that they can be acquired for a reasonable price.

    Agreed. That was the implication of my question, especially for the 1892 which would be worth crossing. The 1890 wouldn't be worth the cost of crossing.

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was a whole slew of these basement slabbers in the mid '00's before eBay tightened the screws. Used to be anything in a "slab" was allowed to be called the grade on the holder. Lots of less knowledgeable people got burned by the practice of basement slabbers taking cleaned AU or low MS coins and calling them MS65/6/7 etc. so eBay had to step in and disallow these types of scam slabs.
    If you are looking for "good"(and by "good" I mean not always garbage) off brand slabs the ones to look for would probably be PCI, Hallmark, INS, SEGS, or Accugrade, but you have to either be willing to take the risk or really know what you are doing.
    Not too far off from PCGS and NGC would be ANACS and ICG, these are both economical grading alternatives that don't require memberships to submit coins. These two are also actually allowed on eBay but the general consensus is that they aren't as strict as PCGS or NGC so they typically sell for less, good coins can be found in either one though.

    Collector, occasional seller

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:
    There was a whole slew of these basement slabbers in the mid '00's before eBay tightened the screws. Used to be anything in a "slab" was allowed to be called the grade on the holder. Lots of less knowledgeable people got burned by the practice of basement slabbers taking cleaned AU or low MS coins and calling them MS65/6/7 etc. so eBay had to step in and disallow these types of scam slabs.
    If you are looking for "good"(and by "good" I mean not always garbage) off brand slabs the ones to look for would probably be PCI, Hallmark, INS, SEGS, or Accugrade, but you have to either be willing to take the risk or really know what you are doing.
    Not too far off from PCGS and NGC would be ANACS and ICG, these are both economical grading alternatives that don't require memberships to submit coins. These two are also actually allowed on eBay but the general consensus is that they aren't as strict as PCGS or NGC so they typically sell for less, good coins can be found in either one though.

    I always thought that PCI was at least good for authentication even if the grades were garbage, but this past week on Facebook one of the guys shared an Omega HR Saint counterfeit that was certified genuine by PCI.




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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Treat the bargain slab coins like they were raw and check them a little closer as the slab may be hiding a problem.
    I do not understand the statement 'bargain basement price', were they offered for less than melt?

    If you can't determine the difference between a MS66 and a cleaned AU55, you should spend less on coins and more on learning to grade them.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCI has been owned by many people. There have been experts, and there have been novices. PCI coins are like raw coins. You can’t take anything for granted.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 12:37PM

    Unless PCGS, NGC, Anacs, ICG the TPG accepted by eBay would not fool with them. You could just do CAC coins but they more expensive (CPG). Download, subscribe to the CDN app and check yourself.

    Before spending money on RCI it’s your responsibility to educate yourself and decide on an investment strategy which fits your budget, interests, and goals.

    If you look at the number of TPG above for graded coins and currency on eBay - PCGS (coins and currency), NGC / PMG the undisputed leaders - the numbers don’t lie. Do the math check it out yourself.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    spyglassdesignspyglassdesign Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2023 3:00PM

    RUN FOREST RUN!

    As many have pointed out already, these are so far off base it's not even remotely funny. If by basement price you mean fine or very fine details or at junk/well circulated rates, then yeah it's probably fine but these will not under any stretch pass a tpg screening.

    Unless you are just looking for album fillers and can get them at truly fair pricing (nowhere near the pricing the slab indicates).

    (edited for clarity)

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Watchtower.... Glad to hear you are pursuing knowledge now, through books and other sources. The advice is solid....Most of us here have, at one time, been where you are now... Good luck on your journey. Cheers, RickO

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    UpGrayeddUpGrayedd Posts: 497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:

    @ChrisH821 said:
    There was a whole slew of these basement slabbers in the mid '00's before eBay tightened the screws. Used to be anything in a "slab" was allowed to be called the grade on the holder. Lots of less knowledgeable people got burned by the practice of basement slabbers taking cleaned AU or low MS coins and calling them MS65/6/7 etc. so eBay had to step in and disallow these types of scam slabs.
    If you are looking for "good"(and by "good" I mean not always garbage) off brand slabs the ones to look for would probably be PCI, Hallmark, INS, SEGS, or Accugrade, but you have to either be willing to take the risk or really know what you are doing.
    Not too far off from PCGS and NGC would be ANACS and ICG, these are both economical grading alternatives that don't require memberships to submit coins. These two are also actually allowed on eBay but the general consensus is that they aren't as strict as PCGS or NGC so they typically sell for less, good coins can be found in either one though.

    I always thought that PCI was at least good for authentication even if the grades were garbage, but this past week on Facebook one of the guys shared an Omega HR Saint counterfeit that was certified genuine by PCI.




    I tried to fix a typo and my previous comment disappeared.

    As @BillJones said, PCI has had multiple owners over the years. The early green border PCI slabs (don't get them confused with the later green border lookalikes) were accurately graded. However, anything with a gold border is definitely suspect. With that said, at least the Omega counterfeit is real gold, and I think some people collect them as a novelty kind of like Henning nickels.

    Philippians 4:4-7

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “I think some people collect them as a novelty kind of like Henning nickels.

    I wish they wouldn’t. With a Henning nickel, if you buy a real nickel, you are out maybe $10. (I don’t know what they are going for these days.) If one of these things fools a collector with more money than knowledge, they could be out tens of thousands. One like this in a certification holder is really dangerous. It is certified after all by a company that was in business for years.

    Besides they are not cheap. The one time I heard a price quoted for one was at a Baltimore show. It was $3,500. I’m sure where gold bullion was at the time, but it was a fraction of what it is today.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    rte592rte592 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2023 8:06AM

    @justindan said:
    There is no reason to buy these morgan dollars.

    Sure there is.
    Conversation pieces.
    Quoted...
    I was offered these coins at bargain "basement" prices.

    Depending on the price, say a tick over melt? Silver Weight.
    Would go good with these.
    I'd consider these a good buy ( 30 years ago for under $10ea)

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    UpGrayeddUpGrayedd Posts: 497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    “I think some people collect them as a novelty kind of like Henning nickels.

    I wish they wouldn’t. With a Henning nickel, if you buy a real nickel, you are out maybe $10. (I don’t know what they are going for these days.) If one of these things fools a collector with more money than knowledge, they could be out tens of thousands. One like this in a certification holder is really dangerous. It is certified after all by a company that was in business for years.

    Besides they are not cheap. The one time I heard a price quoted for one was at a Baltimore show. It was $3,500. I’m sure where gold bullion was at the time, but it was a fraction of what it is today.

    Mr. Jones I respect your opinion and I have always enjoyed your posts (they have taught me a lot), and while I don't necessarily disagree, I think the stories behind the Omega Man and Henning are what drives their collectibility. Accordingly, I must admit both stories are quite intriguing, and at the end of the day I think people should collect what they like.

    Not to mention Henning nickels are going for crazy money right now, so it would be easy to get burned by one of those too. Nice examples go for well over $100. I wish I would have bought a bag full when they were cheap.

    Philippians 4:4-7

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rte592 said:

    @justindan said:
    There is no reason to buy these morgan dollars.

    Sure there is.
    Conversation pieces.
    Quoted...
    I was offered these coins at bargain "basement" prices.

    Depending on the price, say a tick over melt? Silver Weight.
    Would go good with these.
    I'd consider these a good buy ( 30 years ago for under $10ea)

    Yours look like decent uncs. The ones posted above look like AU's, possibly(?) cleaned. Regardless they are definitely worth more than melt value, especially the 1892 which I would think is a $100 or so coin.

    Collector, occasional seller

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UpGrayedd said:

    @BillJones said:

    “I think some people collect them as a novelty kind of like Henning nickels.

    I wish they wouldn’t. With a Henning nickel, if you buy a real nickel, you are out maybe $10. (I don’t know what they are going for these days.) If one of these things fools a collector with more money than knowledge, they could be out tens of thousands. One like this in a certification holder is really dangerous. It is certified after all by a company that was in business for years.

    Besides they are not cheap. The one time I heard a price quoted for one was at a Baltimore show. It was $3,500. I’m sure where gold bullion was at the time, but it was a fraction of what it is today.

    Mr. Jones I respect your opinion and I have always enjoyed your posts (they have taught me a lot), and while I don't necessarily disagree, I think the stories behind the Omega Man and Henning are what drives their collectibility. Accordingly, I must admit both stories are quite intriguing, and at the end of the day I think people should collect what they like.

    Not to mention Henning nickels are going for crazy money right now, so it would be easy to get burned by one of those too. Nice examples go for well over $100. I wish I would have bought a bag full when they were cheap.

    I bought the 1944 Henning nickel for $1 at coin show in the 1970s. I just don't like rewarding counterfeiters. It encourages more of them.

    I really get ticked at the people who buy the Chinese counterfeits as collectables. I know a collector who buys them so that he can post pictures to warn people about them. That's okay. But buying them as collectables only feeds the beast. I want the beast to die for lack for funds.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    UpGrayeddUpGrayedd Posts: 497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones I agree completely, especially with anything made out of Chinesium, but I think Omega gold and Henning nickels are in a different category.

    Philippians 4:4-7

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