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GTG 1814 E/A O-108a Capped Bust Half Dollar

jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭

What is your opinion of the grade?

The first set of photos are courtesy of a previous David Lawrence auction, and the second set are my photos. The scratches on the cheek seen on my photos are due to a single lamp light source, thus lighting up the wear from one direction, appearing like a cleaning. For kicks, there is a guido on the edge visible by S-13 on the obverse and A-2 on the reverse. Thanks in advance.




"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

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Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    40

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,068 ✭✭✭✭✭

    EF45 or so. How much of a factor should the reverse have? Is the greatest wear on a side the limiting factor most of the time?

  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45/50

    Trade $'s
  • jughead1893jughead1893 Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭✭✭

    50

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭✭✭

    35

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 6:26PM

    40

    Standard weak strike in all the normal areas and looks to have decent luster in protected areas.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2023 6:47PM

    @logger7 said:
    EF45 or so. How much of a factor should the reverse have? Is the greatest wear on a side the limiting factor most of the time?

    Weakness in the eagle's head and left wing are very common in this variety (and lots of others in the series) and that should be taken into consideration along with other factors to determine the grade, IMO.

    Another interesting example is the 1809 O-104. This coin is the PCGS plate coin as AU55 and is an amazing coin but has a typical weakly struck chin, that in lower grades can almost look like damage. Almost like someone took a cloth and tried to rub dirt or a planchet defect off of it. It also has a weak left wing and head on the reverse. This is also seen on several other 1809 die varieties.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are notorious for being undergraded, so I will guess VF30, but I think it's more of a 40.

  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,585 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great pictures, and great variety!

    I'm going to say it's a VF38! :D

    Really I can see this somewhere between VF30 and EF45 depending on how I feel about the surfaces, but I'm leaning to strong 35 or reasonable 40.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonderful variety...the E over A.

    Speculation is that the A punched into STATES instead of the correct E was not a matter of illiteracy by "the help" or a spelling error by Reich. It was likely due to a distraction that caused Reich to lose his place. Seeing a T and little more (under magnification) he didn't realize he was about to strike the fifth letter, not the third.

    These are tough to grade. The dies were well worn and strikes are always soft, especially evident at eagle's neck and head. and the left-facing wing.

    I like it as a 40. But anything 35-45 wouldn't surprise me.

    Nice example!
    Lance.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A market 50. A technical 40.

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    35

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it. Nice die clash. Strong eye-appeal overall.

  • justindanjustindan Posts: 697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    40

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess would be 40.... Nice die clash on the obverse... Cheers, RickO

  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    45

    Mr_Spud

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Big spread, VF-35 to AU-50! This was expected, especially since this is a tougher marriage to grade. Lance explains it well, the eagle normally comes weakly struck.

    I'll post my personal grade and NGC's grade tomorrow, in case anyone else wants to get their opinions in.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The first set of images , I was thinking a very flashy 30...
    When I saw the 2nd sets of pics, 40 all the way. Higher wouldn't surprise me either.
    Super coin for sure!
    I've had a couple of these but never one with the arrow clash and the eagle claw clash so sharp!

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it doesn't seem common that these clash strongly enough or appropriately enough for the D in untied to make it to the obv?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Changing my guess to 45

  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll go with 40. Love the bold clash.

    Larry

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 12:20PM

    @LanceNewmanOCC Good eye. I was studying those clashes a couple weeks ago. There are clash marks of the first few stars underneath UNITED as well. Super cool. I didn't have those specific closeups on hand, but I do have these photos of some other features:



    NGC gave this a VF-30. I purchased this and cracked it for closer study, as I like my coins raw. I think it is an XF-45, included ownership bias.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    @LanceNewmanOCC Good eye. I was studying those clashes a couple weeks ago. There are clash marks of the first few stars underneath UNITED as well. Super cool. I didn't have those specific closeups on hand, but I do have these photos of some other features:

    great images~!

    nice info the strength of clashing carried over to the rev as well.

    auspicious timing on the close-up of the liberty clash on the rev. i was JUST thinking the past few days or so how neat it would be to see that clash again w/o me having to go digging for images. so thanks. :)

    seeing that same clash multiple times over the top of each other and also inside the shield is pretty nifty too.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are, in order, a VF30, VF35, and XF40. FWIW.
    Lance.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And here is another XF40.

    You can see these are tough to grade.
    Lance.

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    Here are, in order, a VF30, VF35, and XF40. FWIW.
    Lance.

    Thanks for sharing those examples to provide discussion for grading these. I actually somewhat disagree with those grades listed. I think they are XF-40, VF-35, and AU-50 respectively. Luster, in my opinion, seems to be the best thing to go by in high VF-AU grades considering that the detail can be so inconsistent. The middle coin has a better strike with less luster so that would mean more wear, thus a lower (technical) grade.

    I think the market grading system screws up coins like this because it severely knocks the grades of original coins with knowingly weak strikes.

    I agree with the grade of the fourth coin, XF-40 tops. It may appear that it has more luster than an XF-40, but those are heavy die flow lines that are more apparent and stay in the lower circulated grades.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guessed VF30 was assigned.. here's my "30," ahem,

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pnies20 said:
    How does everyone have an E/A but me that’s what I wanna know

    .
    that is very peculiar. even I have owned them but don't have one currently! :s:D

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also interesting is that we haven't seen any O-108 earlier die states yet. Lance's first VF-30 example is a few strikes earlier than mine, but is still considered the "a" die state.

    @kaz Nice example with an interesting later die state, thank for sharing! That looks at least XF-40, could be 45.

    The large bulge in front of Miss Liberty is quite interesting. An effect of die deterioration, it has to be a lapped clash, die sink, or progressive indirect design transfer. The other clash marks on the right obverse field seem to mush away as well, so I would think it would be a lapped clash with PIDT as a minor contributor.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • ElmerFusterpuckElmerFusterpuck Posts: 4,627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's mine, graded VF-35:


  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Below is an E/A prime. I have images of a couple more.

    The bulge to the left of Liberty's profile is due to lapping after clashing (eagle's wing). Very common in the series.
    Lance.

  • dhikewhitneydhikewhitney Posts: 361 ✭✭✭

    Improperly cleaned, AU details

  • ThreeCentSilverFLThreeCentSilverFL Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was going to guess 45, but am too late. Nice coin.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    35 or a 40, pick one 🙂

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    Below is an E/A prime. I have images of a couple more.

    The bulge to the left of Liberty's profile is due to lapping after clashing (eagle's wing). Very common in the series.
    Lance.

    you know, i like ddo, clashing, errors etc as much as the next person BUT EDS/Prime are VERY nice and it would be nice if they'd get grade bumps due to that. nice specimen. :)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    NGC gave this a VF-30. I purchased this and cracked it for closer study, as I like my coins raw. I think it is an XF-45, included ownership bias.



    didn't recall seeing the graded holder, so TTT in case others missed it as well.

    i'd have cracked it too.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pnies20 said:
    How does everyone have an E/A but me that’s what I wanna know

    You have to spend money….these are not inexpensive! 😂

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My xf45

  • EddiEddi Posts: 453 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a low grade example.
    I don't actively collect bust halves, and don't know much about them. But, I did notice the A/E peculiarity on this one and was glad to buy it.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've owned just two. The first, an ANACS XF40 that crossed to PCGS as a 35, and the second which I bought as a 53 and it regraded 55.

    Dave's 63+ is simply spectacular. I could look at it all day. Actually I have when we were thinking of turning the images into a jigsaw puzzle.
    Lance.



  • jacrispiesjacrispies Posts: 711 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 9:56AM

    @Eddi What an extremely attractive example you have there!

    @drddm The combined features of strike, condition, and die state makes your coin phenomenal!

    @lkeigwin If the bulge defect to the right of Miss Liberty is due to lapping, why does this example below still have the clash marks on the high points of the die (fields)? When lapping a die, I wouldn't think the mint employees would sand and polish the dies in a small, concentrated spot, completely avoiding all other clashmarks. Food for thought I guess. I really like your second coin, great colors and strike in an attractive circulated grade.

    I didn't notice the feather details in the clash in front of Miss Liberty before! Quite amazing.

    Are lower grade (F and below) difficult to come by for you guys? I come across the E/As in high VF+ and only have seen a couple lower grade examples before.

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @Pnies20 said:
    How does everyone have an E/A but me that’s what I wanna know

    .
    that is very peculiar. even I have owned them but don't have one currently! :s:D

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @Pnies20 said:
    How does everyone have an E/A but me that’s what I wanna know

    .
    that is very peculiar. even I have owned them but don't have one currently! :s:D

    🤦‍♂️ look what I found buried in my safe. Forgot it was there! 🤣


    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jacrispies said:
    @Eddi What an extremely attractive example you have there!

    @drddm The combined features of strike, condition, and die state makes your coin phenomenal!

    @lkeigwin If the bulge defect to the right of Miss Liberty is due to lapping, why does this example below still have the clash marks on the high points of the die (fields)? When lapping a die, I wouldn't think the mint employees would sand and polish the dies in a small, concentrated spot, completely avoiding all other clashmarks. Food for thought I guess. I really like your second coin, great colors and strike in an attractive circulated grade.

    I didn't notice the feather details in the clash in front of Miss Liberty before! Quite amazing.

    Are lower grade (F and below) difficult to come by for you guys? I come across the E/As in high VF+ and only have seen a couple lower grade examples before.

    I see them quite a bit at shows unattributed.

    BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2023 1:27PM

    @Pnies20 said:
    🤦‍♂️ look what I found buried in my safe. Forgot it was there! 🤣



    now THAT makes much more sense. B)

    nice example AND pics.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mine was an ANACS 45 that i submitted to PCGS and they graded it 45.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Each of the coins in this thread is a tribute to the early Mint workers who did everything they could to squeeze more coins out of the dies before they completely collapsed ( dies and workers, both).

  • drddmdrddm Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is my first E/A I ever bought. Got it around 15 years ago from Dick Osborn and still own it. Bought it as a NGC 45 and crossed it to PCGS 45.

    It also happens to be a O.108 Prime.


    Dave

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