US 1870-S $3 Gold Unique PCGS SP-50

TheGoonies1985 · December 29, 2022 4:18PM

Any guesses on final hammer price:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/three-dollar-gold-pieces/three-and-four-dollar-gold/1870-s-3-sp50-893-engraved-pcgs-unique/a/1355-9013.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Open-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=3

P0CKETCHANGE · December 29, 2022 4:28PM

That’s a pricey details coin.

HoledandCreative · December 30, 2022 7:36AM

THE expensive love token -- $8,400,000.

johnny9434 · December 30, 2022 7:51AM

pass

LanceNewmanOCC · December 30, 2022 7:52AM

i have nothing for or against the coin or what it may sell for but after reading some about it (again) and looking at the images/vids, it looks like to me the coin still has polishing compound on the obv in the devices.

so did a "potentially" polished coin AND graffitied get straight-graded?

lilolme · December 30, 2022 8:07AM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i have nothing for or against the coin or what it may sell for but after reading some about it (again) and looking at the images/vids, it looks like to me the coin still has polishing compound on the obv in the devices.

so did a "potentially" polished coin AND graffitied get straight-graded?

Absolutely. It is confirmed by pcgs in this video.

At about the 14:30 time mark the 1870 S discussion starts. Then just after the 23:00 mark Steve F talks about how the coin has problems but due to what it is, it was decided to give it a numeric grade.

https://youtu.be/Gfzo-jBViR4

1904vernacular · December 30, 2022 9:00AM

I would love to own such a piece graffiti , engravings, counterstamping, chop marks et al. Now where did I put my $8M?

Zoins · December 30, 2022 9:29AM

I hope a forum member gets it!

Nice opening.

Heritage said:
The 1870-S three dollar gold piece is among the rarest and most enigmatic coins in the U.S. federal series. Only a single example of this classic numismatic rarity is known to collectors, though reliable reports indicate a second specimen may reside in a ceremonial casket that was placed under the cornerstone of the Second San Francisco Mint in 1870. Of course, the cornerstone example is clearly out of reach of present day numismatists, making the coin offered here essentially unique. It is common practice for catalogers to compare ultra-rare coins they describe to other established numismatic rarities, ones that potential bidders can easily recognize and appreciate, like the 1804 dollar, or the 1913 Liberty nickel. That tactic seems inadequate in the case of the 1870-S three dollar gold piece, which is 15 times rarer than the 1804 dollar and five times rarer than the 1913 Liberty nickel. Q. David Bowers once compared owning the 1870-S to owning the Mona Lisa, perhaps a more meaningful comparison. Both are unique and, to the collectors who understand and appreciate them, both are priceless. Heritage Auctions is privileged to present this unique numismatic treasure in just its third auction appearance.

Floridafacelifter · December 30, 2022 9:38AM

If I get it set into a pinky ring do I do it date side up or obverse up? I’m thinking date side……

MFeld · December 30, 2022 9:50AM

@Floridafacelifter said:
If I get it set into a pinky ring do I do it date side up or obverse up? I’m thinking date side……

Date-side down. That would better protect the (pun intended) “money” side of the coin. And as an added bonus, it would make a robbery less likely, as (most) would-be perpetrators would be unaware of the value. .😉

Floridafacelifter · December 30, 2022 9:52AM

@MFeld said:

@Floridafacelifter said:
If I get it set into a pinky ring do I do it date side up or obverse up? I’m thinking date side……

Date-side down. That would better protect the (pun intended) “money” side of the coin. And as an added bonus, it would make a robbery less likely, as (most) would-be perpetrators would be unaware of the value. .😉

Good point- especially at coin shows- lots of lurkers lurking

LanceNewmanOCC · December 30, 2022 10:43AM

is this one of the "ok to drop" coins?

i know i know, not a good contribution.

i'll guess $5mil, so as to actually contribute to on-topic. i would go higher but this is a severe details coin, unique or not graded or not.

good to read all the heritage write-up.

EastonCollection · December 30, 2022 3:32PM

$6.5 million w/o juice.

Broadstruck · December 30, 2022 3:37PM

@Floridafacelifter said:
If I get it set into a pinky ring do I do it date side up or obverse up? I’m thinking date side……

Either way you there's no downside as you could wear it for a few years, and even ex jewelry it would still straight grade.

fathom · December 30, 2022 4:02PM

I will say 4.5 hammer.

One thing that our host should consider is creating a special holder with a color foil label and a thorough provenance and history on the back of the labels for unique or close to that US classic rarities.

Therefore they can label the coin AU special strike and no numeric grade to preserve graded coin integrity. Yet the special holder will signify its importance to the hobby whether numeric grade or none.

Zoins · December 30, 2022 4:17PM

How many people need this coin for their collections?

cheezhed · December 30, 2022 4:19PM

What is the engraving? Intials?

Floridafacelifter · December 30, 2022 7:03PM

@Zoins said:
How many people need this coin for their collections?

I think I do, but then again I am an obsessed coin junkie

LanceNewmanOCC · December 30, 2022 7:08PM

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

.
it says on the holder but i don't recall if the heritage description and info stated what the 3 digits stand for.

FlyingAl · December 30, 2022 7:10PM

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Zoins · December 30, 2022 8:00PM

@Floridafacelifter said:

@Zoins said:
How many people need this coin for their collections?

I think I do, but then again I am an obsessed coin junkie

Good luck

Zoins · December 30, 2022 8:00PM

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

FlyingAl · December 30, 2022 8:18PM

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

The theory is that the Chief Coiner JB Harmstead may have added it for assay purposes.

Floridafacelifter · December 30, 2022 8:42PM

@Zoins said:

@Floridafacelifter said:

@Zoins said:
How many people need this coin for their collections?

I think I do, but then again I am an obsessed coin junkie

Good luck

Ha- too much for me! If I had those kind of funds I would go for all those lovely proof $3’s coming up.

Zoins · December 30, 2022 9:56PM

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

The theory is that the Chief Coiner JB Harmstead may have added it for assay purposes.

Being engraved by Joseph Breck Harmstead is very interesting!

If it was done by the US government, it's definitely worth a straight grade, at least for the engraved part of it.

FlyingAl · December 30, 2022 10:00PM

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

The theory is that the Chief Coiner JB Harmstead may have added it for assay purposes.

Being engraved by Joseph Breck Harmstead is very interesting!

If it was done by the US government, it's definitely worth a straight grade, at least for the engraved part of it.

I don't know. I draw the line for mint made defects at before or during striking. If it was on the planchet or dies, it's fair game for a straight grade. If it's done after striking, even at the mint, it's a details coin. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Anyways, I believe the coin is a jewelry piece anyways. It just looks bad in straight graded plastic. All caution was thrown to the wind when the SP was put on the label too.

ricko · December 31, 2022 5:42AM

It is certainly a rare piece.... One of the deep pocket collectors will be stalking this item. And if two seek it, the price could set a long standing record. I wonder if Mr. Musk collects coins??
Cheers, RickO

LanceNewmanOCC · December 31, 2022 8:51AM

From CF:

David Akers (1975/88): This coin is one of the most famous of all U.S. gold coins. The Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint indicated that only a single piece had been struck to be put into the cornerstone of the new mint building. However, a specimen appeared in the William H. Woodin Sale in 1911 and was claimed to be a duplicate of the coin in the cornerstone. It is probable that the two coins are one and the same and today it is widely accepted that the 1870-S three dollar gold piece is unique. The lone piece is in the collection of the late Louis Eliasberg of Baltimore, Maryland. Mr. Eliasberg purchased the coin through Stack's and the Celina Coin Company for $11,500 in January of 1946, the same month in which he purchased the 1854-S half eagle for less than half that amount ($5500). This, of course, was an astonishing price for the period, although it was $2500 less than the amount that Mr. Eliasberg had paid Abe Kosoff for an 1822 half eagle in July of 1945. Prior to being in the possession of Ted and Carl Brandts who owned the Celina Coin Company, the 1870-S was in the Brand Collection.

The unique piece in the Eliasberg Collection is not in choice condition and, in fact, it has the "pebbled" appearance of a coin that has been used as jewelry. There is also minor damage at the obverse rim below the bust, indicating that the coin probably was worn on a key chain or watch fob. The numerals "893" have also been scratched upside down into the reverse field above the wreath. The S mintmark is totally unlike the mintmark on any U.S. coin, in particular the S Mint coins of 1870, lending credence to the story that the mintmark was cut into the die by hand after the die reached San Francisco.

Given the provenance, a lot of big names have looked at and owned the piece for a long time.

J.R. Harmstead - H.T. Van Camp - William Woodin - Thomas Elder 3/1911, $1,450) - S. H. Chapman - Newcomer (inv cost $2,000) - Mehl - Col. E.H.R Green - Burdette G. Johnson - offered to Eliasberg ca. 1944 by Art Kagin at $8,500 - Ted and Carl Brandts (Celina Coin Company) ca. 1945 - to Morton Stack $11,000) - Stack's to Eliasberg 1/1946, $11,550. U.S. Gold Coin Collection Sale - Bowers & Ruddy 10/1982:296 $687,500 - Norman Stack - Harry W. Bass, Jr. Collection - Harry Bass Foundation (currently on display to the American Numismatic Association)

edited JUST to highlight the comment about the mint mark.

ernie11 · December 31, 2022 11:11AM

I have no guesses on the final price of this piece or the 1870-S half dime. But let's see how near or far the 2023 Red Book's values are:

1870-S $3 gold: $7,500,000
1870-S half dime: $3,000,000

P0CKETCHANGE · December 31, 2022 11:29AM

Would HA actually pull this coin for me if I asked to see it during lot viewing? It would be cool to hold it!

MedalCollector · December 31, 2022 11:30AM

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

The theory is that the Chief Coiner JB Harmstead may have added it for assay purposes.

Being engraved by Joseph Breck Harmstead is very interesting!

If it was done by the US government, it's definitely worth a straight grade, at least for the engraved part of it.

I don't know. I draw the line for mint made defects at before or during striking. If it was on the planchet or dies, it's fair game for a straight grade. If it's done after striking, even at the mint, it's a details coin. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Anyways, I believe the coin is a jewelry piece anyways. It just looks bad in straight graded plastic. All caution was thrown to the wind when the SP was put on the label too.

Do you consider all matte/sandblast US Mint gold proofs from the early 20th century to be details coins?

The_Dinosaur_Man · December 31, 2022 11:53AM

It's one of my favorite enigmatic pieces. I do wish that a dozen or more had been made, kind of like the silver dollar of that year. Whatever price it hammers at will be something I can't afford.

FlyingAl · December 31, 2022 12:01PM

@GoldenEgg said:

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@Zoins said:

@FlyingAl said:

@cheezhed said:
What is the engraving? Intials?

I believe it relates to the fineness of the gold 89.3%. I’ll have to doubt check to make sure that’s right.

Edit: this is the correct working theory at the moment.

Do we know who added it? It would be interesting if it was added by a Federal employee.

The theory is that the Chief Coiner JB Harmstead may have added it for assay purposes.

Being engraved by Joseph Breck Harmstead is very interesting!

If it was done by the US government, it's definitely worth a straight grade, at least for the engraved part of it.

I don't know. I draw the line for mint made defects at before or during striking. If it was on the planchet or dies, it's fair game for a straight grade. If it's done after striking, even at the mint, it's a details coin. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Anyways, I believe the coin is a jewelry piece anyways. It just looks bad in straight graded plastic. All caution was thrown to the wind when the SP was put on the label too.

Do you consider all matte/sandblast US Mint gold proofs from the early 20th century to be details coins?

That's a fair point. But there's also a distinct difference between a common post strike treatment and some poorly scrawled digits placed in a random spot. I'll revise my statement to be after the coin is finished, which for most coins is after striking.

MFeld · December 31, 2022 12:09PM

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Would HA actually pull this coin for me if I asked to see it during lot viewing? It would be cool to hold it!

I believe that you would be able to hold and examine the coin.

P0CKETCHANGE · January 2, 2023 3:08PM

@MFeld said:

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Would HA actually pull this coin for me if I asked to see it during lot viewing? It would be cool to hold it!

I believe that you would be able to hold and examine the coin.

Just got home from Orlando where I went to the lot viewing (see my write up here), and I did indeed get to examine the 1870-S $3! It was the most valuable coin I’ve ever held, likely by a factor of at least 100. It’s very cool to be able to say I’ve held the one and only specimen—definitely an experience I will treasure.

As far as the coin itself, the first thing I noticed in-hand was the surface quality, specifically the “pebbled” look which was present on both sides but seemed more obvious on the money side. The graffiti is at least confined to a small area of the reverse near the rim, so it wasn’t as immediately distracting as it appears in the TrueView.

I do stand by my glib comment at the beginning of this thread about it being a details coin, but it really doesn’t matter given it’s status as a unique, absolute rarity. If you’ll be at FUN, I hope you have the opportunity to check it out.

savitale · January 2, 2023 5:29PM

That is the longest Heritage coin description I have read.

I'll guess $9M hammer.

GoBust · January 2, 2023 7:19PM

The Rosetta Stone is far from perfect yet considered one of the greatest objects on the planet. Many amazing and historically important coins wouldn't straight grade in that sense. Yet they are amongst the most important historical artifacts from early American mint history. Examples like the 1794 No Stars Dollar and 1814 Platinum Half Dollar to name a couple of such non-perfect coins. If I had the deep pockets, I would buy it and not look back. Be interesting to see what the deep pockets think on this one. I'm guessing only 4 or 5 serious players, but they are Oh so serious!

I see it as a profound rarity, a unique gold coin with really important mint history tied into its DNA. Did i say its fabulous IMHO. To reach their own of course. Each collector has their own nervana. Enjoy!

Zoins · January 2, 2023 7:35PM

This is a really a history making coin to own. I'm really curious to see if we'll find out who ends up with it.

gnuschler · January 2, 2023 8:00PM

@savitale said:
That is the longest Heritage coin description I have read.

I'll guess $9M hammer.

I may eat some crow (wouldn't be the first time) ... but I would cut that estimate in half!

oih82w8 · January 2, 2023 8:24PM

I never can keep gold coins for an extended period of time. But wowsers, what a piece of history!

Do you think that it would be worth more if it was still mounted as a necklace piece?

OldIndianNutKase · January 2, 2023 8:50PM

For sure it will sell for much more than it is worth if there are more than one serious bidder. Bass probably paid much more than it was really worth but he needed it........

I bet that Hansen will not go over 5.5M.

OINK

hummingbird_coins · January 2, 2023 9:28PM

$8,930,000
.
.
.
.
.
...get it?

TheGoonies1985 · January 5, 2023 1:56PM

I guess we will find out soon enough auction starts in 2 hours from now.

Labelman87 · January 5, 2023 2:19PM

I viewed the complete Eliasberg collection at the Philadelphia mint in the mid-1970's. See the 1870-S $3 at the top of a giant Capital Plastic holder of a complete $3 collection was something to behold. Being young at the time (mid 20's) I really did not appreciate all of the great specimens that I had the privilege of viewing.
EIGHT FIGURES.

oih82w8 · January 5, 2023 2:29PM

Does anyone know how the fineness (.893) of the coin is determined?

TheGoonies1985 · January 5, 2023 4:35PM

SOLD $5 520 000

Floridafacelifter · January 5, 2023 4:59PM

Won’t be coming home with me but I did get to check it out!

breakdown · January 5, 2023 8:31PM

@OldIndianNutKase said:
For sure it will sell for much more than it is worth if there are more than one serious bidder. Bass probably paid much more than it was really worth but he needed it........

I bet that Hansen will not go over 5.5M.

OINK

Turns out to be an interesting comment.

fathom · January 6, 2023 7:55AM

No price dislocation here. Coin sold per market efficiency.

It's not big or flashy, but terribly important.

waisaacs · January 6, 2023 8:29AM

Here's the cert verification for this coin https://www.pcgs.com/cert/46095412 which still shows the grade as AU50, instead of the slab labeled SP50 (it must have been graded and then regraded during the auction preparation). Their own images include the slab. I contacted PCGS about this a few weeks ago and had an iteration with customer service, but they have not fixed the cert page yet.

johnny010 · January 6, 2023 8:58AM

Few questions
1) who bought it?
2) read the article on where the original copy is stored underneath the SF Mint cornerstone. There is a lot of documentation on what was placed there and the parties involved…how does no one know where it is?
From GovMint:
“ Newspapers of the day reported that the cornerstone was on the northeast side and that it was filled with one of each of the 1870-dated coins struck by the newly-established San Francisco Branch Mint. Despite such eye-witness reports, the actual cornerstone housing these historic treasures has never been located.Apr 14, 2016”

US 1870-S $3 Gold Unique PCGS SP-50

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