I don’t necessarily agree with the often-seen advice “Buy the best you can afford”.
MFeld
Posts: 13,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here are just a couple of reasons:
For almost everyone, that means not having the funds to buy other coins, which you might enjoy just as much, or even more.
It might also mean buying coins that are less liquid, rather than more liquid and ending up less diversified.
When I consider both the enjoyment of collecting and the “investment” aspect of it, I’d much rather buy more coins, not fewer. And that doesn’t mean that they can’t t still be great ones.
I welcome any comments, whether for or against “buying the best you can afford”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I like better “the best that you understand.”
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I like buying at the highest grade before the big jump in price. There's always a point of diminishing return.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I’m a less is more collector and prefer quality over quantity. That said, there is quality at every grade level.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
It comes down to how one interprets or defines “afford”. Does it mean spend every dollar of disposable income one has (without going into debt), or does it mean buying the best coin you can within your budget range for that particular coin? I take it to mean the latter—for ex., if you can allocate $1k to a Peace dollar type coin, don’t settle for a $600 coin in a lower grade.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
This is generally how I like to rationalize a purchase. Taking everything into consideration, liquidity is always very important to me, you never know what life will throw at you. I like to find the “sweet spot” that has the right balance of grade, eye appeal, and liquidity. Pop 1/0 coins may have the greatest potential to appreciate, but it goes both ways and my risk tolerance starts becomes a factor.
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Sorry for my third post to this thread. Re Diversification presumes that this is desirable from a collecting (vs investment) perspective.
I’m in the process of selling 10 very nice coins from my collection to fund a certain high quality coin. In my opinion, this coin might have a more limited audience when it comes time to sell, but in the meantime, I’m thrilled to own it and believe the other 10 can easily be replaced over time should I wish to do so.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I've "downgraded" a couple times to coins I like better.
Not good for my set position in the registry but oh-well.
"Best" is subjective.
So far as collection size, every slabbed coin I own will fit in 2 PCGS boxes with room to spare.
My Saint Set
I agree with OP, in general.
Of course, "afford" is a slippery concept. Many decades ago, my wife and I realized that we could have practically anything we really want, but we can't have everything we want; we have to pick and choose.
In line with this (and OP's original comment), I impose on myself a soft cap on any individual purchase, and keep expensive purchases to one per calendar month (of course, I make exceptions, if I've been looking for a particular coin in a particular condition for a long time, and one pops up, or if a particularly spectacular coin with which I have been intrigued hits my radar).
I have long realized that, had I limited my collecting to one or two series, I could have a much more "impressive" collection. But my collecting interests were decided when I was a kid, saving coins out of circulation, and I have never had any interest in abandoning any of those collections. So I optimize across the entire collection, rather than having one super-collection. My collections are dominated by XF and AU coins in the more expensive slots, because that has allowed me to get more coins (often, one can look at the price curve relative to condition, and optimize; I have found that AU58, for my budget and desires, often is a very sweet spot). Yes, it would be cool to have sought-after coins in high mint state (and I suspect that those are better "investments"), but that would have precluded completing any collection, and it gives me great satisfaction to have complete collections (and, yes, I can upgrade over time). If my collection ultimately results in a modest (relative to cost) financial loss over time, I'm ok with that, given the pleasure I have received from it.
My single rule for purchasing coins:
1: There are no rules.
peacockcoins
To me, it has to come down to the coins you will get most pleasure from owning. I'm not, and never have been, "investing". There's no sense in buying a coin you won't enjoy for a long time. I couldn't love the hobby near as much if I had to take an investing approach. There are far simpler ways to invest for return.
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Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
While buying coins is fun, I don't want to have too many coins. Ideally I'd like all of my coins to be in PCGS boxes of 20 inside one safe deposit box at the bank. Otherwise, it's too hard to get access to the coins in the back of the safe deposit box when I want to look at my coins.
Interesting topic. I guess it comes down to your motivation to be a collector. Every purchase we make comes with an opportunity cost. If you really understand why you collect, the how to collect becomes easier to understand. Sometimes I see very wealthy, very frustrated people being perfectly miserable when their white whale won’t appear. At the same time there are “fools” having a blast going through junk boxes and stuffing inexpensive coins into albums.
It’s a great hobby when billionaires and pensioners can both show up at a show or meeting and both have a great time.
As I understand the word "afford", it means "have the money to buy". I have the money to buy all sorts of things that I would enjoy. However, most folks, myself included, can only allocate so much to collectibles, cars, houses, etc. if they're prudent. So we buy a Mercedes instead of a Bentley, We buy a VF Chain instead of an XF. I can enjoy my choices without owning "the best". That being said, if gain is one's object, history has told us to stretch a bit, so the "fewer the better" approach has merit. For scarce uncs I look for nice 64's (often stickered) as a sort of compromise, the pre-price-point- jump method espoused above, and with a chance to ride the wave (or avoid the crash).
All of the OP's points might be sound advice for different collectors but it's all based on the thinking that we need to buy coins all the time. I tend to go about it slower. I don't go about trying to find something to buy just to satisfy myself and spend money, I figure out what I want and what condition/grade I want it in, then I search. Often, the search takes a long, long time but I don't buy things in between to make me happy.
I politely digress.
As a younger collector starting off, not necessary that everyone has the resources, access nor the experience, so has to settle getting the best bang for their buck.
When the same young collector matures and has more options, the scope of the field definitely becomes much bigger and then the wait and watch game begins to land the dream coin.
Am sure D L Hansen would have started the same way and kept upgrading his collection as the viability increased, landing the unicorns that he has currently.
So yeah, buy the best you can afford is a tried and tested method that has endured.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
My post wasn’t based on the thought that collectors need to buy coins all the time. Regardless of how many coins collectors want to acquire or the frequency with which they want/hope to acquire them, most have limited funds. So they need to make purchase decisions (including how much to budget for any one coin) with that in mind.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To me it is irrelevant because I don’t tend to collect things where there are multiples to choose from reasonable time period.
So really, if the coin is better than the best I have seen, should probably buy it. Along with, Will I even find a better one? If the chances are unlikely, better buy it.
Latin American Collection
I think "buy the best you can afford" is a short way of making a deeper statement about buying what makes sense. Outside of being exceptionally wealthy where you can buy everything at the highest level, it's all a give and take. There are lots of things I can afford, but at the cost of other things, whether they are also luxuries or life necessities. When I bought my car a few years ago, I could have spent way more on a fancier car, but I got something safe, comfortable, and that did what I need it to do. If I really loved cars maybe there would be more value in spending more, but I don't care much for cars, so I spent enough to have the features I want, but didn't spend beyond what I had to. The same goes with coins. There are coins I would love to own (high-ticket, wonderful pieces) which I have the money to buy, but I haven't bought them because in the big picture of my finances, I don't think this is the right time to spend that much on a coin versus, say, putting money in a retirement account when it will have decades to grow and pay off down the road.
Now, when it comes to coins that are within my coin budget, I think @PerryHall got it right:
If you look at my want list, each coin on there has a grade where I've checked the general values, and I chose a grade where I'd be happy and where the next grade is much more expensive. The ideal is to find a really solid example at that grade below the price jump, so maybe you're even partway to the more expensive grade, but you aren't paying much of a premium. But even then, flexibility is required. Maybe a stunning example comes along in the higher grade and it's worth the splurge. On the other hand, consider the 1942/1 merc I bought earlier this year. I had pegged XF40/45 as the ideal grade, but having seen tons of them I didn't like, a VF35 that was all but perfect came along. I didn't save a ton of money buying it (the big price jump was after XF), but the coin is great, and on a details basis, just about as good as an XF. It was a no-brainer.
I have somewhat limited funds...I wish I could wave a wand and sell my 14 Old Holder Commemoratives to get the funds for this 1854 J-161 Pattern. That 14 for 1 swap I would do in a heartbeat! That's why I need to put away 2K for my gotta have it now coin.
"Buy the best you can afford to collect."
A long time ago, I was at precipice of venturing towards being a collector or continually buying good coins and flipping them, I was given some sage advice.
If I was going to be a collector, I should learn to buy what I could afford to keep.
Otherwise, I should be consider becoming, or working for a dealer.
I considered then, and still do today, that this should mean both affording the whole of my collection and each piece I was buying. And that it should also mean I understood what I was buying, both in their significance, their levels of preservation, and in the relative value of the coin(s) compared to the money I was spending.
Finally, it did not mean I HAD to keep each of the coins, only that I shouldn't HAVE to sell them.
.
Today, I am totally in love with collecting Capped Bust Halves. In practice, while I probably COULD purchase one or two (or three or four) Gem CBH's per year, a few coins a year does not keep me engaged the same way, at least at this point in my life. So I buy a dozen or so ChAU CBH's ... with some money left over for a Note or three (I also collect Large-size US Currency), and maybe something that tickles my fancy (occasionally my eye does wander) or fits in one of the other, mostly inactive sets.
I decided on ChAU as a grade range on these this for various reasons. I understand the grade and general value of many coins that fall into this grade definition. They are mostly available, and somewhat affordable (to me, at this point in my life), and they allow me to pick up examples that are interesting, attractive and desirable (to me). And finally, I like when my collection has a similar look and feel, and sticking within a grade range helps define that. Stepping up to Choice Unc examples would severely limit my ability to buy many of the coins I have, both in price and availability.
Since we are all different, it can work from one end to the other. For me, understanding what satisfies my desires and fuels my pursuits, that I can afford to keep, and that I understand ... all go hand in hand.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Sure, buy the best you can afford. Sensible advice.
Each collector’s education, experience, tastes (what constitutes eye appeal), collecting style, contacts/network/advice, and other factors determine their ‘best’ in a coin.
For afford, the advice does not touch on frequency of opportunity. In such cases, previous sale amounts are outdated so estimation of current market value is difficult. A determination as to how far into this unknown (where is ‘affordability’ lost....or investment potential exhausted) you are willing to bid is necessary. Fretting about potentially overpaying. In this heat of an auction an underbidder might assume the role because the amount reached a level where the coin’s investment aspect became unfavorable. This is the good news you are looking for as the winning bidder.
Agree regarding purchasing coins that are less liquid or diverse – as a set collector my collection has minimum diversity and its liquidation would be more difficult. Also agree with buying more, not less coins.
I like putting sets together and I like to have them somewhat matching in grade and appearance. So, the me, the goal is to buy coins that match the hardest to find/most expensive coins in the set. Like I wouldn’t want to buy a key date that is circulated and mix it in a set that the common date coins are high grade uncirculated. I’m currently scouring the Internet to find AU modern slabbed coins for some of my circulated type sets. They are surprisingly hard to find because they are not considered to be worth the cost of slabbing them. I could easily find and afford high grade uncirculated moderns, but I don’t think they match the set when the old expensive ones are circulated.
Mr_Spud
I’m guessing that mindset largely explains why, based on your posts and messages, you sound like you enjoy your collecting so much!😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Goals and budgets both can change. As such, I find enjoyment in building several sets from the same series. Perfect example, filling holes from junk silver bins for one set, F/VF/XF coins for a nicer album and mint state coins for the finale. For the mint state coins, I often (not always) will buy the best I can afford. Some sets the jump to the next grade is exponentially more expensive and since I don't always play in the deep end of the pool(registry), I will save money buying a grade down. Not all series can work this way, but for the most part coins from the 20th century (ones I enjoy the most) can. I realize I could save money by not having multiple sets, putting it towards better coins, but that is sometimes what keeps it fun.
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
I am a big believer in what several others have said, "I like buying at the highest grade before the big jump in price. "
That being said, that point can change dramatically over time. For the gold dollar sreies I collect, that grade for "just before the jump", was MS62 for common dates. At that time an MS65 was about 7 times the cost of a MS62. Now, 20 years later, it is about 2.5 times the cost. So I could have afforded the MS65 back then but instead I can now upgrade with inflated dollars for much less. Not always the case, especially with better date coins, but it makes pretty good economic sense if you are in for the long haul.
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I can't think of anything that would ruin collecting for me more than worrying about what I'll be able to sell a coin for before I even own it.
Agree - it’s a term I have seen many big gun dealers use. The “best” can be way in the stratosphere vs a nice MS64.
This is another factor in this discussion. What one finds fascinating or satisfying with a coin acquisition can change over time as knowledge is learned, tastes have changed, OR a great coin becomes available that one has an opportunity to acquire. Sometimes, collection churn can be a good thing - pruning and /or reinvigorating one's hobby.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Depending upon collectors’ tastes and goals, sometimes they have to “overpay” (in the eyes of others) to obtain the coins they want. And those who refuse to “overpay” often end up with subpar collections.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Dang stupid font problem. I need to preview 🤨
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Stack bullion coins if worried about liquidity. Buying the best coin for your money pays off in the end. Better quality sells much easier than poor quality and brings more profit in the end. That doesn't mean that you cant also have other not so valuable coins as well, but for the main collection buy the best that you can afford within your budget.
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As I observe some of the replies, I can see that this is a very subjective topic. On one hand, some pay little mind to potential resale and pay whatever it takes to secure the finest examples, while others will not purchase a coin that they perceive to have any downside. It seems that the majority of us fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.
I may be in the minority that worries about resale value when buying, which I’m comfortable with. Personally, I can’t justify treating collecting solely as a hobby, to the point that I’m to willing to take an enormous bath if I ever decide to sell. In my opinion, my strategy has made collecting more enjoyable by being shrewd with my purchases, as I’m net positive overall since I got back into the hobby. (I’m aware that timing has a lot to do with this, as the market has been in an uptrend for the series I collect). I think trying to maintain a business mindset has added another layer to the challenge of collecting, but it doesn’t detract from the hobby, for me.
I guess I’d be much more likely to “overpay” for a coin in an auction, taking solace in the fact that the under bidder was right behind me. However, we all know that the next time the coin is auctioned, the results could vary significantly. I will absolutely pay up, within reason, for a scarce coin that’s not often available, as long as it checks all the boxes. I really enjoy all of the coins I have now, and I’m fairly confident I could liquidate my current collection and net around 90% of what I paid, give or take.
One other major factor to consider for this subject is the amount of money tied up in one’s collection. Someone who collects coins in the $100-$300 range may not mind taking a 30% haircut when they sell, provided that their “enjoyment” was worth at least $30-$90. If I buy a 5 figure coin and take a 30% haircut, that will likely sour the experience for me, as I would probably not feel that the “enjoyment” of that coin was worth thousands of dollars.
Time will tell if my opinion remains the same on this matter, as I’m planning to venture off into some thinly traded world markets soon. From what I’ve gathered, world gold is an entirely different beast than US pre-33, and I may have to throw some of my buying principles out the window very soon.
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So many rules are in play for us to live our everyday lives. And I get it. Without restrictions and laws, we would live in chaos.
My job has rules. My marriage has rules. Society has rules. (All of which I agree are necessary to thrive.)
Having a hobby with no self-imposed rules outside of the Golden Rule is nice.
I suppose that makes it a hobby vs. a necessary part of living.
peacockcoins
I have expressed more than once on this forum the value that MFeld provides. And I stand by that commentary. I will suggest and argue that it is never about the best you can afford... It is about quality for the grade. And there is a difference. There are those that have been very successful about suggesting it is all about condition rarity. And without a doubt that is correct with respect to certain coins, but condition rarity even has its limits.
There is another thread about yet another 1895-O Morgan asking for thoughts and opinions. I have expressed my opinions. I have done so without attaching an earlier thread that basically discussed the same grading issue with the same Morgan Dollar- same date but different coin at an earlier time... as in 15 plus years ago. And this seems to be an ongoing issue about what passes the straight face test as to grading. There is a problem and it is reflected beyond what the so-called "market" is able to handle or even ajudicate. Limiting the discussion to Morgan Dollars, there is a reason that certain sheets have prices at levels that seem low... and they are at those levels mainly because of coins that have been processed and look like those that appear in that thread.
Let me make this clear so there is no misunderstanding... enhancing coins for the expectation of obtaining a higher grade fails on so many levels- And we have seen the process continue as documented on so many threads on this forum.
Please stop the insanity... if you like a dipped out coin- whether it be gold or silver-buy one that already exists in that state, It really is that simple because so much of the original surviving population has already been compromised out of greed.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
What makes this forum so enjoyable for me is our own diversity. The old song line, "Different Strokes for Different Folks" should be on a token as the very avenue we all stroll along. I love coins, most coins anyway, and I cannot afford them all in top condition, so therefore, I must make considerations that affect my purchases. On both expensive and hard to obtain coins, I will accept certain detriments such as a scratch, a ding or another slight imperfection in order to be financially responsible with my funds. For early copper, I am the most liberal, because they are becoming so expensive and hard to find even in Fine and up. It makes me sad when someone says, " you are throwing your money away for details coins". New collectors and some of us old collectors have a set income that cannot be over utilized. So I think about all the beautiful coins that have small imperfections and some that have large imperfections that lay unloved. Just send all the ones you don't want to me and I'll will keep them for you. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Buy the best that makes sense to you and your collecting goals.
If you can afford a coin that costs $x, but it makes no sense to you why it's that expensive, either out of ignorance (i.e., you don't know why) or diligence (you conclude it's overvalued), or it compromises your other collecting goals, you're better off buying a coin that costs $x/k for some value k > 1 such that the expenditure makes sense.
Applying this rule will also tend to eschew buying the keys first -- other advice I don't agree with.
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Seems ignorance is a huge problem
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Well said.
This is what differentiates the coins you and I buy from the coins most members of this forum do. Except that one of your series (Guatemala pillars) is even scarcer than my primary interest (pillars from Lima and Potosi).
I buy whatever is available when it's available, as long as I like it enough, the price is "reasonable", and I'm not going outside my financial comfort zone. In the last few months, I've spent about $7K for four coins which is a lot for me, but it's my only opportunity to buy these coins for years, if ever. Two I had never seen before except as dreck, one previously in much lower quality, and the last in "close enough" quality back in 2008. But that's all. There were also other coins I wanted to buy that I won't have a chance for a long time (maybe never) but I wasn't going to spend any more this year.
If I collected anything where buying roughly comparable examples wasn't an obstacle, I'd never pay large premiums for slight differences in quality, whether measured by the grade or any other criteria. Additionally, my definition of "slight differences is a lot broader than what I often read here.
I'm very confident you are not in a minority, where the amount spent is considered "material" to the buyer. For most collectors, the funds to do it don't fall out of the sky. It takes working and saving. Most collectors intuitively don't want to throw away part of their life (time they can't get back) losing money - on anything - without a good reason, no matter what the reason is to them.
I'm a collector. I don't buy coins to flip or as an investment. I buy what I like to have in my collection. I buy coins with the thought that they are in a grade that I won't have to upgrade later. It makes no sense to me to buy something for my collection that needs to be upgraded. Whatever your standards are stick to them .
I can think of a few reasons to overpay (and I’ve applied this to coins and other things I can collect)
Opportunity cost: if maybe once a year or two I have a chance to get something I want, I may well be willing to pay a bit more so I can stop taking time every day looking for it. I may pay more in dollars, but time is worth money, and enjoyment is a form of value, too. I’m watching an auction right now where I’m prepared to “overpay” because I’ve seen one other example in the last two years and it isn’t as nice. I don’t know when my next opportunity will come along, and if that costs me 20-30%, so be it.
Price appreciation: there are coins I waited on even in the last year or two, and now the going rate is well above what a nice one cost when priced on the high side. Overpaying then would have been cheaper in the long run.
Quality: I have overpaid for many coins of your guide is a generic price guide. But I’m confident I could find others who would overpay for the same coin, or at the very least I know I have a nicer example than what the price in the guide would get. Quality isn’t free, and not all coins in the same grade are the same.
I cant imagine worrying about what any part of my collection is worth for even 1 second, that would ruin it as a hobby for me. Whatever money I spend on coins is money I would be just as happy spending on a vacation, or blowing it up (I like setting off piles of fireworks...), etc... where once spent, its gone.
The fact that I could sell them and get money back is great, and in many cases I could sell them and make profit, but since I dont ever intend to sell my collection, thats pretty much irrelevant.
This has been my strategy, all along, and it's worked quite well for me.
That being said; I'll pay up, if the coin is 'special'.
Also, the grade level that I prefer is dictated by the series AND the issue.
When I'm buying key dates; I'll buy fewer per year but, when buying the more common issues; I can, obviously, buy with more frequency and at a higher grade level.
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But even with vacations or fireworks, there is a concept of value. I get not worrying about the details of value, but I'm not trying to spend more than I need to to get a certain coin. That's no different than being willing to pony up for a vacation, but if I can get the trip for one price, there's no reason to pay significantly more for no additional benefit. That said, much of this is based on the time of purchase. I wouldn't want to buy a coin that's a bad deal when I buy it, but if I buy a coin to enjoy, I'm not making the buy decision based on predictions of its value or potential profit in 5 or 10 or 20 years.
I think everyone is limited by their budget. If i could only buy one coin a year I probably wouldn't be in this hobby long. If I even had to think about liquidity for a second I wouldn't consider it a hobby. So I think you should spend what you can afford that allows you to keep an interest in coins. I can count on one hand the number of coins I've bought on Ebay. I have bought most of my coins at local coin auctions (usually 2 a month locally) Once or twice a year at the local coin show. And local auctions on Auctionzip that have coins and a couple local coin dealers. And flea markets. 95% of my coins are raw the only coins that i buy certified are the keys. I have 2 books for everything I collect. One I try to make MS the other as close to MS that I can get. I found that going to auctions where not everyone is a coin collector or a dealer can be a bad thing. For example I have 6 or 7 1913 type one buffalo nickles that are MS. I don't need them they are raw but they were to good of a deal. I'm not really into toning, I do like the roll toning and book toning. Not really into all the wild colors.
Trust me, I get it Mark's point...
I have taken a financial hit since 2020, and my recent numismatic journey is more about education.
This newtered approach has been an joyous awakening.
Recycling cash from existing collections and turning it into a self sustaining operation makes for some brutally honest reflection.
Intention is to at least build a box of 20 per year for the long term.
But I have and always will be a picker and a flipper.
Just sent five coins for grading so we shall see how long they stick around.
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