@Jzyskowski1 said:
Dang stupid font problem. I need to preview 🤨
LOL....I was just reading along the comments and came to yours and knew it was you just by your TYPED font!!! That happened to me once and I can't remember how I did it!!!!
"Buy the best you can afford." I'm not sure I agree with that either.....I think you should buy what you like and can afford. As far as the best goes, maybe if you're trying to buy and sell and want to get top dollar, but if you're collecting, it makes sense to buy more coins you like instead of getting one super expensive one, unless you just want top quality. So many factors come into play here....buyers, sellers, dealers, collectors. There really are NO rules.
The key I think is buying the best for the grade you can afford. My coins all look like they can go 1 grade higher and are very solid for technical condition and eye appeal factors.
@DeplorableDan said:
...Personally, I can’t justify treating collecting solely as a hobby, to the point that I’m to willing to take an enormous bath if I ever decide to sell.
I cant imagine worrying about what any part of my collection is worth for even 1 second, that would ruin it as a hobby for me. Whatever money I spend on coins is money I would be just as happy spending on a vacation, or blowing it up (I like setting off piles of fireworks...), etc... where once spent, its gone.
The fact that I could sell them and get money back is great, and in many cases I could sell them and make profit, but since I dont ever intend to sell my collection, thats pretty much irrelevant.
Different strokes....
I can justify to myself spending as much as I spend on coins only by feeling that I could get a good majority of that money back if ever I needed to. In my ideal world, selling my collections will be up to my kids, but one never knows what the future brings, financially (well, unless one is a whole lot wealthier than I am).
Sure, this is a hobby. Sure, I buy coins for the pleasure I get from seeing my collections advance in quality. But I believe that when I buy an expensive coin, I am turning a liquid asset--cash--into a less liquid asset--coins of varying desirability, which "less liquid asset" can be liquidated to realize a substantial portion of the cost; else I could only buy a small fraction of what I do.
I think the sentiment behind "buy the best you can afford" is along the lines of "don't buy a coin you will regret in the future". The word afford needs to be evaluated within the context of the collector's goals as well as budget. I don't interpret the phrase as "blow your whole wad on one high-grade coin". But instead, for example if you have the choice between a bargain VF and an appropriately priced AU, and both are affordable to you within the context of your goals, go for the AU. Because as your collection matures and perhaps your budget increases, you will likely want the AU in that hole.
Interesting topic. My own rule of buying more expensive coins is this:
1) Is it a date or condition you've seen often in the past? If not go to #2.
2) Is this a coin you really like or is it just a population/condition rarity? If you really like the coin, go to #3
3) Is this a coin that really jumped out at you when you first saw it, and still did if you "wanted to think it over a bit"? If so, go to #4
4) If you have the funds, buy it!!! This approach has never ever given me a coin I didn't like; even years later I can look at it with pride. The few I've sold have netted me decent profits but for the most part these coins are still in my collection.
I've never liked that advice at all. What if your enjoyment comes from buying a big variety of low-grade coins, or just from the thrill of the hunt? What is meant by "can afford"? That old adage is meaningless. It makes assumptions about the collector that only apply to a subset.
@logger7 said:
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
Depending upon collectors’ tastes and goals, sometimes they have to “overpay” (in the eyes of others) to obtain the coins they want. And those who refuse to “overpay” often end up with subpar collections.
Sometimes, to get a very rare coin, you must overpay. Another way of looking at it is that you pay tomorrow's price today, because the coin will probably not be there tomorrow. A lot of times my decision is based on how long have I been looking for the coin, how many have I seen, and when is it likely that I will see another of that coin. Several coins I have bought as a collector were coins I had not seen in ten years or more.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
@ReadyFireAim said:
I've "downgraded" a couple times to coins I like better.
Not good for my set position in the registry but oh-well.
"Best" is subjective.
So far as collection size, every slabbed coin I own will fit in 2 PCGS boxes with room to spare.
I downgraded my 1872-S half in my Dansco from a VF to an F02. The VF was OK for the grade but the F02 was much better for the grade.
@logger7 said:
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
I don't think any of us do, but assume $100 is a lot of money for you. No judgment here, and change the numbers as necessary to suit your circumstances. Things change and emergencies happen. So if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee).
You should be very reluctant to pay $1000 for a coin you couldn't sell immediately for over $900. No one wants to (have to) flip a coin in his collection. No one wants to lose $100 (even if $100 is a rounding error in your universe). Sometimes circumstances make both necessary. It behooves us to only buy coins that, if we had to immediately sell, we could do so for amounts that we could live with.
For almost everyone, that means not having the funds to buy other coins, which you might enjoy just as much, or even more.
It might also mean buying coins that are less liquid, rather than more liquid and ending up less diversified.
When I consider both the enjoyment of collecting and the “investment” aspect of it, I’d much rather buy more coins, not fewer. And that doesn’t mean that they can’t t still be great ones.
I welcome any comments, whether for or against “buying the best you can afford”.
Not really for or against, but with current technology we can all view and enjoy and have virtually all benefits of ownership (except resale potential) of a 1933 Saint in ways we couldn't previously. So it's possible to enjoy a "collection" of far more coins than we could ever purchase and actually purchase only finest known Ikes.
When I consider both the enjoyment of collecting and the “investment” aspect of it, I’d much rather buy more coins, not fewer. And that doesn’t mean that they can’t t still be great ones.
This reduces it for me.
Good prompt @MFeld, good discussion folk.
For almost everyone, that means not having the funds to buy other coins, which you might enjoy just as much, or even more.
It might also mean buying coins that are less liquid, rather than more liquid and ending up less diversified.
When I consider both the enjoyment of collecting and the “investment” aspect of it, I’d much rather buy more coins, not fewer. And that doesn’t mean that they can’t t still be great ones.
I welcome any comments, whether for or against “buying the best you can afford”.
Not really for or against, but with current technology we can all view and enjoy and have virtually all benefits of ownership (except resale potential) of a 1933 Saint in ways we couldn't previously. So it's possible to enjoy a "collection" of far more coins than we could ever purchase and actually purchase only finest known Ikes.
Is that the same as being married to Katy Perry? I have virtually all of the benefits...except for one.
To this day I still have coins I’ve found in my pocket. I still have the coffee can of wheat cents my grandmother gave me. On the other hand I’ve sold off large pieces of my collection that had more value to survive. I buy what brings me joy. Do I wish I could afford more “higher end” pieces? Sure. In the end what is it about this hobby that makes you smile?
Prost!
Why step over the dollar to get to the cent? Because it's a 55DDO.
I buy what I like, within my financial restraints. I have other interests that also command funds. Those interests, much like coins, can also provide funds due to liquidity. I rarely sell coins, I have some I acquired more than sixty years ago. It is a hobby, I enjoy coins. If it were to become so structured, as it appears to be for some, I would not continue collecting coins. For me, it is enjoyment and interesting. If that ceases to be, then I will move on to something else.
Cheers, RickO
@logger7 said:
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
Any serious collector/investor is going to assess what a certified coin is really worth and down the line whether they will be taking a 30% haircut or selling it at breakeven or at a small profit. There's nothing like losing significant money to sober you up to business realities of a hobby, albeit an investor/collector field as well. A businessman who splurges and loses money in numismatics consistently needs to take a reality check. I've called around when selling expensive (to me) coins in the $5-$10K range and the vip dealers offered a lot less than elsewhere, and you can be sure they would not leave a dime on the table when flipping that coin for a big profit. Scott Travers has written about good business sense when buying and selling, such as working with dealers on a 5% finder's fee.
@logger7 said:
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
I don't think any of us do, but assume $100 is a lot of money for you. No judgment here, and change the numbers as necessary to suit your circumstances. Things change and emergencies happen. So if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee).
You should be very reluctant to pay $1000 for a coin you couldn't sell immediately for over $900. No one wants to (have to) flip a coin in his collection. No one wants to lose $100 (even if $100 is a rounding error in your universe). Sometimes circumstances make both necessary. It behooves us to only buy coins that, if we had to immediately sell, we could do so for amounts that we could live with.
Life happens.
I agree with your sentiments. To most collectors, there are many examples of the same coin (date, MM, denomination, type) viewed as interchangeable. The number and proportion of the collector base who "must have" a specific coin with a specific look is very low. as this forum isn't representative of the (US) collector base.
@logger7 said:
Also, don't overpay. Think like a businessman or dealer if you are assembling a quality collection; ie, if you needed to sell that coin in the next few months, how liquid would it be, how much money would you lose if any?
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
Any serious collector/investor is going to assess what a certified coin is really worth and down the line whether they will be taking a 30% haircut or selling it at breakeven or at a small profit. There's nothing like losing significant money to sober you up to business realities of a hobby, albeit an investor/collector field as well. A businessman who splurges and loses money in numismatics consistently needs to take a reality check. I've called around when selling expensive (to me) coins in the $5-$10K range and the vip dealers offered a lot less than elsewhere, and you can be sure they would not leave a dime on the table when flipping that coin for a big profit. Scott Travers has written about good business sense when buying and selling, such as working with dealers on a 5% finder's fee.
I don't disagree. What I was responding to was the timeframe stated by you regarding someone buying a coin and needing to think about whether they might need to sell in a few months. Perhaps I was being too literal, but the majority of people do not realistically think about the worst possible scenario when they are pursuing a hobby. Of course, the hope is that the majority of collectors are also buying with discretionary funds. If they are not, I maintain that they still have a problem that may need counseling.
I remember the first time I was hit with the “buy the best you can afford” sales pitch from a big gun rich out of state dealer at a show.
The reality is the best you can be afford can have a large chance to lose money as you are going to have to have very positive market performance and find somebody who will pay the money for that to be a successful investment. If your buried in it your really in a deep hole. Many times those items marked up into the stratosphere or you will need win a bid war to procure it. If it goes bad in the holder - game over.
I like buying items that most of those coming in bourse room can afford, like, plus I have a chance do well on it sales and margin wise.
Wow. Who here buys a coin thinking there going to sell it in the next few months? They need mental health counseling if so!
Edited to add: as a collector
I never buy a coin with the intention is selling it, but "sometimes life gets in the way" I try
to buy at a price level such that if I HAD to sell in the near future I could without taking
too much of a haircut. In regards to the original post, "afford" means different things to
different people. To me, it means to not put so much into a coin that I couldn't buy
another in the near future if the "right " coin came along. (guess I just agreed with the
original post).
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean everybody has to.
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean everybody has to.
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so. A vacation, whether its 2k or 20k, is solely an experience where 0$ can be recouped after the fact. A coin has inherent value, and the majority of funds allocated can be recouped rather easily if need be. To me, the two are on completely different planes of existence. I think a more appropriate comparison would be funds invested into another hobby, such as firearms, golf clubs, or metal detecting equipment.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BryceM said:
Interesting topic. I guess it comes down to your motivation to be a collector. Every purchase we make comes with an opportunity cost. If you really understand why you collect, the how to collect becomes easier to understand. Sometimes I see very wealthy, very frustrated people being perfectly miserable when their white whale won’t appear. At the same time there are “fools” having a blast going through junk boxes and stuffing inexpensive coins into albums.
It’s a great hobby when billionaires and pensioners can both show up at a show or meeting and both have a great time.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
You got my curiosity up. What's the other wish?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
@MasonG said:
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone.
Yep...
I'm passing down all the coins in my Saint set so they essentially represent zero money for the rest of my life.
I almost never sell (3 in the last 10 years)
1 trade-up to a dealer, 1 outright sale to a dealer & 1 to a member here.
I didn't make any money on any of them but I did break even.
I think most collectors understand your point, they just don't necessarily agree with it.
I agree with you, for the coins I actually buy. That's why I'd never buy the coins most others do, especially at the prices often paid. I don't like other coins more than those I actually buy and don't like most coins (over 99%) to lose even one cent on it. I'd never trade one second of life effort for most coins, so I wouldn't voluntarily lose a cent on it either.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
That's because it's apparently not fully a hobby to them, not in the sense that it's treated as an alternative consumption expense which is my definition. For most coin buyers, once it becomes sufficiently "Material" to them (cumulative cost or above a price point they set), it's a quasi-"investment" to them.
A second reason probably also has to with what is being bought at the price being paid. I reach this conclusion from relative prices now and the last several decades versus pre-TPG and especially pre-70's. I've explained this before, so no point in repeating it again, unless someone actually asks.
I don't understand why it seems to bother some people that many (probably most) of us consider the investment aspects of a significant purchase before making that purchase.
No, that doesn't mean we are "constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying." It means we want to be comfortable that we're paying a fair price (however we determine that). That's all.
Just as we would want to be comfortable before we plunk down $10,000 on a vacation. Or a car.
Doing so greatly increases my pleasure in partaking of this hobby.
I'm pleased for those who are in a position to not care about such things; most of us are not there.
Invest in whatever you like, I'm not bothered. As far as worrying about being cheated or buried in a purchase, that concern is posted on the forum here on a regular basis.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
You got my curiosity up. What's the other wish?
Perhaps that MFeld starts collecting coins because I vaguely remember reading some time back that he does not collect.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
You got my curiosity up. What's the other wish?
Better ethics/more honesty/less dishonesty
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean everybody has to.
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so. A vacation, whether its 2k or 20k, is solely an experience where 0$ can be recouped after the fact. A coin has inherent value, and the majority of funds allocated can be recouped rather easily if need be. To me, the two are on completely different planes of existence. I think a more appropriate comparison would be funds invested into another hobby, such as firearms, golf clubs, or metal detecting equipment.
And also wanted to chime in that my "collecting" stamps and coins as a young elementary school kid was all about managing what one could lay their hands on by requesting family/friends around the globe for support and then trade with other collectors etc.
Meager allowance never allowed a chance to "buy" either stamps or coins which was frowned upon by parents and never "bought" anything till starting to earn as an adult.
After mom and dad came the turn of the wife to monitor expenses incurred in the hobbies, thus continuing to walk the tight rope.
Have also availed the pay in installments with 0% APR whenever available and shamelessly used that as an excuse to explain the purchase to the rolling pin wielding missus giving the death stare.
Now it is the turn of my youngest kid to be the voice of reason when big ticket purchases are made and would rather scale back the MS67 to a 65 or even 64 if the "look" feels comfortable as well as right, thus also helping to acquire more for upgrading the other collections. It is a never ending cycle and the buying the best would be eventual goal.
So guess would have to either sell off my extras to attain it when the ideal time comes, aside from waiting to strike it rich with the lotto which I never play.
@DeplorableDan said:
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so.
I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
You got my curiosity up. What's the other wish?
Perhaps that MFeld starts collecting coins because I vaguely remember reading some time back that he does not collect.
I don't currently collect coins and haven't for a long time. But I did, previously, off and on, for many years. If it were my wish to collect at this time, it would be a wish that I could make come true.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have read all the comments and it seems like there are two different discussions going on. One about selling coins. One about buying coins.
Selling coins. In march of 2020 I had 187 certified coins that formed 4 sets. Covid hit. I am self employed and my income went to zero. I set up 2 options.
Option A. tell the few souls dumb enough to count on me for their living that I wasn't their daddy and they were on their own. Use reserves to pay off leveraged assets. Stop paying unsecured debt. Wait 60 days and file bankruptcy. (Get judgy if you want, desperate times call for desperate measures.)
Option B. Set up an attrition plan. All assets on the board. I set up 8 90 day segments and prayed the crisis didn't go longer than that. In the end I didn't have to sell all my coins. Jennifer the accountant made me pay capital gains tax for both 2020 and 2021, so I guess I sold rare coins for fun and profit. I tend to think of it as destroying a project I worked on for 22 years; but that's just me. To this day I have never looked at the auction results for any single coin. Know I should but it is to painful.
Buying coins. I have taken the remainder of my collection and come up with 3 sets of coins.
In March of 2022 I was able to start being a collector again. 1 coin I have always wanted is an 1878-cc Seated Quarter with cancelled die. I passed on three coins I could have gotten for much less because I wanted both the highest grade I could afford and the coin I felt was by far best for the grade. I guess that is pursuing the finest grade possible. Another coin I bought was an 1891 Seated Quarter. It is an attractive piece but I could have easily spent 2 to 4 times more than I did. I chose to hold those funds back because their are other dates I am quite excited to pursue. I guess I am a 50/50 collector in this respect?
@124Spider said:
I don't understand why it seems to bother some people that many (probably most) of us consider the investment aspects of a significant purchase before making that purchase.
No, that doesn't mean we are "constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying." It means we want to be comfortable that we're paying a fair price (however we determine that). That's all.
Just as we would want to be comfortable before we plunk down $10,000 on a vacation. Or a car.
Doing so greatly increases my pleasure in partaking of this hobby.
I'm pleased for those who are in a position to not care about such things; most of us are not there.
Well said.
I just want to add that collecting is in my blood. I enjoy putting together nice collections. I get a great sense of satisfaction from owning them. And I sell them when I feel I've gone as far as I can reasonable go. If I didn't feel a collection would be a good investment in the long run, I wouldn't start it.
From my personal experience in early gold I have noticed the following from an investment standpoint, especially with the recent run up. (Note, I have bought the best I can afford and am happy, but it wasn't the best investment choice.) :
-Nice AU CAC examples are the most liquid and have had the highest % of increase in value
-I upgraded to upper mid MS CAC examples (before the huge jump in price for highest grades). These have had a more modest increase in value.
-Top pop....drastic value increase, but huge buy in beyond what I could afford. That said, if they become a pop 2 and all your eggs are in that basket.....we have a problem.
So from an investment standpoint: Go liquid or go Top Pop.
For collecting purposes: Do what makes you happy.
I've personally gone for the middle of the road.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
Buying labels can be a trap.
Ive seen MS63's and MS64' with way more eye appeal than the same coin in a 66 holder!
buy ,collect --nice attractive coins , pass on ugly grayish or ugly toned or ones with high thigh shine in high label holders.
I have some 63's that have looks that kill over same coin in a 66 holder I've seen.
you can have a large diamond with lots of inclusions or a very pretty small almost perfect looking diamond.
I once was shown by a jeweler friend his wife engagement diamond 1/4 carat or so, perfect, you could see yourself reflection in it (unbelievable). he picked it out special. I always remembered my amazement at it. Look for those attributes beyond the label that catch the eye and ones desire.
"Buy the Best you SHOULD afford"
Is better advice. The should means that the coin makes sense in the context of the rest of one's collection as well as their overall net worth plus the level of activity and "seriousness" of the numismatist.
Many here technically "could" own amazing coins if they sold off their other assets, but never would do so, instead allocating say 5 or 10% of their dough to a cohesive assembly of pieces that pleases them plenty enough.
This discussion, as well as the recent "what's Rare mean to you?" And ""Are classics overvalued" have ben excellent these past few days, reminds me of old times as my 20 year anniversary here approaches. Thanks CU forum and members
Admittedly I chose not to take the time to read each of the prior 94 replies, so my comment may have been stated by others.
With regard to how much to spend, for me, I ask myself “How much do I feel comfortable spending to fill that slot?”, or in the case of an upgrade, “Taking into account I’ll probably net $xxx selling the replaced coin, how much do I feel comfortable spending for that upgrade, taking into account (the small or large) improvement in eye appeal?”
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
Yes. Exactly. If $100 is a lot of money for you, that is if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee), you shouldn't spend $100 on a trip to Hawaii.
On the other hand, if you've segregated the $100 from your funds and built up an adequate emergency fund that you can afford to eat the $100 should the worst happen, go ahead and spend the $100 for your trip to Hawaii, or on the $1000 coin that you're confident in being able to flip for $900.
@MasonG said:
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
Yes. Exactly. If $100 is a lot of money for you, that is if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee), you shouldn't spend $100 on a trip to Hawaii.
On the other hand, if you've segregated the $100 from your funds and built up an adequate emergency fund that you can afford to eat the $100 should the worst happen, go ahead and spend the $100 for your trip to Hawaii, or on the $1000 coin that you're confident in being able to flip for $900.
But I fear we've gone far afield from the topic.
I don't know. The topic straddles many fields.
I think the origin of the advice is based on the idea that higher quality is more likely to maintain (or increase) its value. In that sense, it is generally true, or at least has been in the past. I'm not sure it was ever intended to be of assistance in planning your budget or your asset allocation. However, your budget and asset allocation are probably bigger factors in what you spend than the alleged future value of what you are purchasing.
The more distressing comments in this thread are not those from people who consider their collections "investments", although I always counsel against such an approach. The comments about "needing to sell" are a little more cautionary. This is not a place to ever park short-term money because a motivated seller will never get top dollar and the buy/sell spread will generally guarantee a loss unless bought at wholesale prices. Even then, a wholesale purchase that you "need" to sell could well lose you money.
To that end, while your advice may not have been in the vein of the original aphorism, that is probably the most appropriate stance to take. Spend your discretionary dollars however you want, but don't ever spend the house money on a coin.
[Side note: Pittman notoriously spent the house money on coins at the Farouk sale. Some people are just gamblers at heart.]
Comments
LOL....I was just reading along the comments and came to yours and knew it was you just by your TYPED font!!! That happened to me once and I can't remember how I did it!!!!
"Buy the best you can afford." I'm not sure I agree with that either.....I think you should buy what you like and can afford. As far as the best goes, maybe if you're trying to buy and sell and want to get top dollar, but if you're collecting, it makes sense to buy more coins you like instead of getting one super expensive one, unless you just want top quality. So many factors come into play here....buyers, sellers, dealers, collectors. There really are NO rules.
I'm a believer in buying what appeals to you in a price you feel like paying,
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
The key I think is buying the best for the grade you can afford. My coins all look like they can go 1 grade higher and are very solid for technical condition and eye appeal factors.
Different strokes....
I can justify to myself spending as much as I spend on coins only by feeling that I could get a good majority of that money back if ever I needed to. In my ideal world, selling my collections will be up to my kids, but one never knows what the future brings, financially (well, unless one is a whole lot wealthier than I am).
Sure, this is a hobby. Sure, I buy coins for the pleasure I get from seeing my collections advance in quality. But I believe that when I buy an expensive coin, I am turning a liquid asset--cash--into a less liquid asset--coins of varying desirability, which "less liquid asset" can be liquidated to realize a substantial portion of the cost; else I could only buy a small fraction of what I do.
I think the sentiment behind "buy the best you can afford" is along the lines of "don't buy a coin you will regret in the future". The word afford needs to be evaluated within the context of the collector's goals as well as budget. I don't interpret the phrase as "blow your whole wad on one high-grade coin". But instead, for example if you have the choice between a bargain VF and an appropriately priced AU, and both are affordable to you within the context of your goals, go for the AU. Because as your collection matures and perhaps your budget increases, you will likely want the AU in that hole.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
"Buy the best you can afford" was much better advice back in the day when top quality coins didn't bring such huge premiums.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Interesting topic. My own rule of buying more expensive coins is this:
1) Is it a date or condition you've seen often in the past? If not go to #2.
2) Is this a coin you really like or is it just a population/condition rarity? If you really like the coin, go to #3
3) Is this a coin that really jumped out at you when you first saw it, and still did if you "wanted to think it over a bit"? If so, go to #4
4) If you have the funds, buy it!!! This approach has never ever given me a coin I didn't like; even years later I can look at it with pride. The few I've sold have netted me decent profits but for the most part these coins are still in my collection.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I've never liked that advice at all. What if your enjoyment comes from buying a big variety of low-grade coins, or just from the thrill of the hunt? What is meant by "can afford"? That old adage is meaningless. It makes assumptions about the collector that only apply to a subset.
Sometimes, to get a very rare coin, you must overpay. Another way of looking at it is that you pay tomorrow's price today, because the coin will probably not be there tomorrow. A lot of times my decision is based on how long have I been looking for the coin, how many have I seen, and when is it likely that I will see another of that coin. Several coins I have bought as a collector were coins I had not seen in ten years or more.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I downgraded my 1872-S half in my Dansco from a VF to an F02. The VF was OK for the grade but the F02 was much better for the grade.
I don't think any of us do, but assume $100 is a lot of money for you. No judgment here, and change the numbers as necessary to suit your circumstances. Things change and emergencies happen. So if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee).
You should be very reluctant to pay $1000 for a coin you couldn't sell immediately for over $900. No one wants to (have to) flip a coin in his collection. No one wants to lose $100 (even if $100 is a rounding error in your universe). Sometimes circumstances make both necessary. It behooves us to only buy coins that, if we had to immediately sell, we could do so for amounts that we could live with.
Life happens.
Not really for or against, but with current technology we can all view and enjoy and have virtually all benefits of ownership (except resale potential) of a 1933 Saint in ways we couldn't previously. So it's possible to enjoy a "collection" of far more coins than we could ever purchase and actually purchase only finest known Ikes.
@MFeld said:
This reduces it for me.
Good prompt @MFeld, good discussion folk.
Is that the same as being married to Katy Perry? I have virtually all of the benefits...except for one.
I always follow this "buy the best" advice, so I live in a tent and take showers at the local gym
The first rule of Coin Club is…
…there are no rules to Coin Club.
To this day I still have coins I’ve found in my pocket. I still have the coffee can of wheat cents my grandmother gave me. On the other hand I’ve sold off large pieces of my collection that had more value to survive. I buy what brings me joy. Do I wish I could afford more “higher end” pieces? Sure. In the end what is it about this hobby that makes you smile?
Why step over the dollar to get to the cent? Because it's a 55DDO.
I buy what I like, within my financial restraints. I have other interests that also command funds. Those interests, much like coins, can also provide funds due to liquidity. I rarely sell coins, I have some I acquired more than sixty years ago. It is a hobby, I enjoy coins. If it were to become so structured, as it appears to be for some, I would not continue collecting coins. For me, it is enjoyment and interesting. If that ceases to be, then I will move on to something else.
Cheers, RickO
Any serious collector/investor is going to assess what a certified coin is really worth and down the line whether they will be taking a 30% haircut or selling it at breakeven or at a small profit. There's nothing like losing significant money to sober you up to business realities of a hobby, albeit an investor/collector field as well. A businessman who splurges and loses money in numismatics consistently needs to take a reality check. I've called around when selling expensive (to me) coins in the $5-$10K range and the vip dealers offered a lot less than elsewhere, and you can be sure they would not leave a dime on the table when flipping that coin for a big profit. Scott Travers has written about good business sense when buying and selling, such as working with dealers on a 5% finder's fee.
I agree with your sentiments. To most collectors, there are many examples of the same coin (date, MM, denomination, type) viewed as interchangeable. The number and proportion of the collector base who "must have" a specific coin with a specific look is very low. as this forum isn't representative of the (US) collector base.
I don't disagree. What I was responding to was the timeframe stated by you regarding someone buying a coin and needing to think about whether they might need to sell in a few months. Perhaps I was being too literal, but the majority of people do not realistically think about the worst possible scenario when they are pursuing a hobby. Of course, the hope is that the majority of collectors are also buying with discretionary funds. If they are not, I maintain that they still have a problem that may need counseling.
I remember the first time I was hit with the “buy the best you can afford” sales pitch from a big gun rich out of state dealer at a show.
The reality is the best you can be afford can have a large chance to lose money as you are going to have to have very positive market performance and find somebody who will pay the money for that to be a successful investment. If your buried in it your really in a deep hole. Many times those items marked up into the stratosphere or you will need win a bid war to procure it. If it goes bad in the holder - game over.
I like buying items that most of those coming in bourse room can afford, like, plus I have a chance do well on it sales and margin wise.
I never buy a coin with the intention is selling it, but "sometimes life gets in the way" I try
to buy at a price level such that if I HAD to sell in the near future I could without taking
too much of a haircut. In regards to the original post, "afford" means different things to
different people. To me, it means to not put so much into a coin that I couldn't buy
another in the near future if the "right " coin came along. (guess I just agreed with the
original post).
As far as planning for the possibility of having to sell a coin because you need the money, how much can realistically be recovered from a trip to Hawaii once you're back home?
As you know, many, if not most collectors think of tangible items very differently from experiences they have paid for.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean everybody has to.
Insert golf clubs or skis instead.
I'm having difficulty comprehending the logic of comparing a coin to a vacation, and would be curious to hear how many collectors do so. A vacation, whether its 2k or 20k, is solely an experience where 0$ can be recouped after the fact. A coin has inherent value, and the majority of funds allocated can be recouped rather easily if need be. To me, the two are on completely different planes of existence. I think a more appropriate comparison would be funds invested into another hobby, such as firearms, golf clubs, or metal detecting equipment.
Edit: I took too long, @jmlanzaf beat me to it
Founder- Peak Rarities
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I consider the money I spend on my collection to be gone. I have the coins but whatever value they might have does not figure in my financial plans. If the value goes to zero (it won't), I'm no worse off than had I spent the money vacationing in Europe. I do not expect that everybody will understand this and I have no interest in trying to explain it to those who don't. One either gets it or one doesn't.
You know what I do have difficulty comprehending? People who continue to participate in a hobby where they're constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying. That doesn't sound like any fun at all. YMMV, of course.
Just yesterday, I messaged a forum member that if I could have two wishes about coin collecting, one of them would be that more collectors would enjoy their collecting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Great post!
My YouTube Channel
You got my curiosity up. What's the other wish?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Yep...
I'm passing down all the coins in my Saint set so they essentially represent zero money for the rest of my life.
I almost never sell (3 in the last 10 years)
1 trade-up to a dealer, 1 outright sale to a dealer & 1 to a member here.
I didn't make any money on any of them but I did break even.
My Saint Set
I just buy what I like, and that usually involves stretching the finances a little, but not always...
I'm having fun and that's what counts.
My YouTube Channel
One either gets it or one doesn't.
I think most collectors understand your point, they just don't necessarily agree with it.
I agree with you, for the coins I actually buy. That's why I'd never buy the coins most others do, especially at the prices often paid. I don't like other coins more than those I actually buy and don't like most coins (over 99%) to lose even one cent on it. I'd never trade one second of life effort for most coins, so I wouldn't voluntarily lose a cent on it either.
That's because it's apparently not fully a hobby to them, not in the sense that it's treated as an alternative consumption expense which is my definition. For most coin buyers, once it becomes sufficiently "Material" to them (cumulative cost or above a price point they set), it's a quasi-"investment" to them.
A second reason probably also has to with what is being bought at the price being paid. I reach this conclusion from relative prices now and the last several decades versus pre-TPG and especially pre-70's. I've explained this before, so no point in repeating it again, unless someone actually asks.
I don't understand why it seems to bother some people that many (probably most) of us consider the investment aspects of a significant purchase before making that purchase.
No, that doesn't mean we are "constantly worried about being cheated by dealers when selling or buried in a purchase when buying." It means we want to be comfortable that we're paying a fair price (however we determine that). That's all.
Just as we would want to be comfortable before we plunk down $10,000 on a vacation. Or a car.
Doing so greatly increases my pleasure in partaking of this hobby.
I'm pleased for those who are in a position to not care about such things; most of us are not there.
Invest in whatever you like, I'm not bothered. As far as worrying about being cheated or buried in a purchase, that concern is posted on the forum here on a regular basis.
Perhaps that MFeld starts collecting coins because I vaguely remember reading some time back that he does not collect.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Better ethics/more honesty/less dishonesty
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes.
And also wanted to chime in that my "collecting" stamps and coins as a young elementary school kid was all about managing what one could lay their hands on by requesting family/friends around the globe for support and then trade with other collectors etc.
Meager allowance never allowed a chance to "buy" either stamps or coins which was frowned upon by parents and never "bought" anything till starting to earn as an adult.
After mom and dad came the turn of the wife to monitor expenses incurred in the hobbies, thus continuing to walk the tight rope.
Have also availed the pay in installments with 0% APR whenever available and shamelessly used that as an excuse to explain the purchase to the rolling pin wielding missus giving the death stare.
Now it is the turn of my youngest kid to be the voice of reason when big ticket purchases are made and would rather scale back the MS67 to a 65 or even 64 if the "look" feels comfortable as well as right, thus also helping to acquire more for upgrading the other collections. It is a never ending cycle and the buying the best would be eventual goal.
So guess would have to either sell off my extras to attain it when the ideal time comes, aside from waiting to strike it rich with the lotto which I never play.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I don't currently collect coins and haven't for a long time. But I did, previously, off and on, for many years. If it were my wish to collect at this time, it would be a wish that I could make come true.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have read all the comments and it seems like there are two different discussions going on. One about selling coins. One about buying coins.
Selling coins. In march of 2020 I had 187 certified coins that formed 4 sets. Covid hit. I am self employed and my income went to zero. I set up 2 options.
Option A. tell the few souls dumb enough to count on me for their living that I wasn't their daddy and they were on their own. Use reserves to pay off leveraged assets. Stop paying unsecured debt. Wait 60 days and file bankruptcy. (Get judgy if you want, desperate times call for desperate measures.)
Option B. Set up an attrition plan. All assets on the board. I set up 8 90 day segments and prayed the crisis didn't go longer than that. In the end I didn't have to sell all my coins. Jennifer the accountant made me pay capital gains tax for both 2020 and 2021, so I guess I sold rare coins for fun and profit. I tend to think of it as destroying a project I worked on for 22 years; but that's just me. To this day I have never looked at the auction results for any single coin. Know I should but it is to painful.
Buying coins. I have taken the remainder of my collection and come up with 3 sets of coins.
In March of 2022 I was able to start being a collector again. 1 coin I have always wanted is an 1878-cc Seated Quarter with cancelled die. I passed on three coins I could have gotten for much less because I wanted both the highest grade I could afford and the coin I felt was by far best for the grade. I guess that is pursuing the finest grade possible. Another coin I bought was an 1891 Seated Quarter. It is an attractive piece but I could have easily spent 2 to 4 times more than I did. I chose to hold those funds back because their are other dates I am quite excited to pursue. I guess I am a 50/50 collector in this respect?
Well said.
I just want to add that collecting is in my blood. I enjoy putting together nice collections. I get a great sense of satisfaction from owning them. And I sell them when I feel I've gone as far as I can reasonable go. If I didn't feel a collection would be a good investment in the long run, I wouldn't start it.
From my personal experience in early gold I have noticed the following from an investment standpoint, especially with the recent run up. (Note, I have bought the best I can afford and am happy, but it wasn't the best investment choice.) :
-Nice AU CAC examples are the most liquid and have had the highest % of increase in value
-I upgraded to upper mid MS CAC examples (before the huge jump in price for highest grades). These have had a more modest increase in value.
-Top pop....drastic value increase, but huge buy in beyond what I could afford. That said, if they become a pop 2 and all your eggs are in that basket.....we have a problem.
So from an investment standpoint: Go liquid or go Top Pop.
For collecting purposes: Do what makes you happy.
I've personally gone for the middle of the road.
Buying labels can be a trap.
Ive seen MS63's and MS64' with way more eye appeal than the same coin in a 66 holder!
buy ,collect --nice attractive coins , pass on ugly grayish or ugly toned or ones with high thigh shine in high label holders.
I have some 63's that have looks that kill over same coin in a 66 holder I've seen.
you can have a large diamond with lots of inclusions or a very pretty small almost perfect looking diamond.
I once was shown by a jeweler friend his wife engagement diamond 1/4 carat or so, perfect, you could see yourself reflection in it (unbelievable). he picked it out special. I always remembered my amazement at it. Look for those attributes beyond the label that catch the eye and ones desire.
It's the "can" part that I disagree with...
"Buy the Best you SHOULD afford"
Is better advice. The should means that the coin makes sense in the context of the rest of one's collection as well as their overall net worth plus the level of activity and "seriousness" of the numismatist.
Many here technically "could" own amazing coins if they sold off their other assets, but never would do so, instead allocating say 5 or 10% of their dough to a cohesive assembly of pieces that pleases them plenty enough.
This discussion, as well as the recent "what's Rare mean to you?" And ""Are classics overvalued" have ben excellent these past few days, reminds me of old times as my 20 year anniversary here approaches. Thanks CU forum and members
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Admittedly I chose not to take the time to read each of the prior 94 replies, so my comment may have been stated by others.
With regard to how much to spend, for me, I ask myself “How much do I feel comfortable spending to fill that slot?”, or in the case of an upgrade, “Taking into account I’ll probably net $xxx selling the replaced coin, how much do I feel comfortable spending for that upgrade, taking into account (the small or large) improvement in eye appeal?”
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I’d refine the advice -
Try your best not to buy the same coin twice.
I cant afford the best coins I can afford.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Yes. Exactly. If $100 is a lot of money for you, that is if you're not sure you'll be able to get through the next few months without needing $100 for whatever reason (job loss would be a bigee), you shouldn't spend $100 on a trip to Hawaii.
On the other hand, if you've segregated the $100 from your funds and built up an adequate emergency fund that you can afford to eat the $100 should the worst happen, go ahead and spend the $100 for your trip to Hawaii, or on the $1000 coin that you're confident in being able to flip for $900.
But I fear we've gone far afield from the topic.
I don't know. The topic straddles many fields.
I think the origin of the advice is based on the idea that higher quality is more likely to maintain (or increase) its value. In that sense, it is generally true, or at least has been in the past. I'm not sure it was ever intended to be of assistance in planning your budget or your asset allocation. However, your budget and asset allocation are probably bigger factors in what you spend than the alleged future value of what you are purchasing.
The more distressing comments in this thread are not those from people who consider their collections "investments", although I always counsel against such an approach. The comments about "needing to sell" are a little more cautionary. This is not a place to ever park short-term money because a motivated seller will never get top dollar and the buy/sell spread will generally guarantee a loss unless bought at wholesale prices. Even then, a wholesale purchase that you "need" to sell could well lose you money.
To that end, while your advice may not have been in the vein of the original aphorism, that is probably the most appropriate stance to take. Spend your discretionary dollars however you want, but don't ever spend the house money on a coin.
[Side note: Pittman notoriously spent the house money on coins at the Farouk sale. Some people are just gamblers at heart.]