@burfle23 said:
My envisioned “rules” are pretty simple:
1) Post a counterfeit PCGS slab and coin and offer any description you would like.
2) Post an image of the genuine on-line cert.
3) Post an image of the genuine example if you have found it.
Discussion is encouraged for each example posted but I would appreciate keeping focus on that and not off topic!
Best, Jack
I’ll start with the aforementioned “PCGS” 1881-CC Morgan cert number 27886283.
I have documented 6 different internet sellers with examples of this one for sale.
One of the sellers actually imaged the on-line cert in his listing; cert of course has no on-line image for comparison.
I dd find the genuine slab in a different listing.
Updated 11-30-22 with this latest listing:
There are 2 more of these listed on ebay currently
So from the other thread burfle23 left a link to some of his articles on counterfeit coins. Finally got some time and read through about 10 on the first page (all but one silver). Thought I would drop the link here in case any one else wants to give them a look.
Note: software would not allow me to copy link (comment will appear after it is approved). Something about me and coin week as it has done this before. So I copied the comment with the link from burfle23 in the other thread.
@johnny010 said:
Trying not to sound over concerned here, but this is bad news. We shouldn’t have to buy every coin with nfc technology to prevent being scammed.
Not wanting to do the opposite and sound unconcerned but I have noticed that much of this is appearing through eBay or similar sources. I notice at shows like, ANA, Baltimore, FUN... that the counterfeit slab is more closely related to a rare find. Again don't want to sound unconcerned because it seems to be growing. As I noted in my previous thread - how do we get more visibility to the counterfeit/fake slab. Also from the above noted link there are some 'good' counterfeit coins.
@johnny010 said:
Trying not to sound over concerned here, but this is bad news. We shouldn’t have to buy every coin with nfc technology to prevent being scammed.
you don't have to buy certified coins and also, learning a series, inside and out, as exhausting as that may seem is just the way of the future in ANY collectables field or buy from people you KNOW are true experts in counterfeit detection. short of that, and even then pros can still miss, is just the life we have here on earth. always has been and always will be.
tbh, i think numismatics (for now) is getting off easy. comics, signatures, cards, games etc are being absolutely WWIII with counterfeits. it is plain and simple, no-holds-barred at this point.
c'est la vie, caveat emptor, illud est quod est and on and on...
Two more of the same 1881cc fakes on ebay. I contacted sellers, one took down listing. Other replied but hasn't removed. New listing. Please report and contact seller. Un real.
@dollarfan said:
Two more of the same 1881cc fakes on ebay. I contacted sellers, one took down listing. Other replied but hasn't removed. >New listing. Please report and contact seller. Un real.
Do you get the feeling on that one that someone could have made up 100 (to pick a number) at a time?
@dollarfan said:
Two more of the same 1881cc fakes on ebay. I contacted sellers, one took down listing. Other replied but hasn't removed. >New listing. Please report and contact seller. Un real.
Do you get the feeling on that one that someone could have made up 100 (to pick a number) at a time?
The amount from different sellers that I have seen is probably close to a dozen. One seller also has a "rolex" that looks like a toy watch
What!
That is 38 pages of photos (from ebay mostly) and if I recall correctly 3681 total photos???
if we really want to go pscyhoman crazy, we can post the links here like alibabas coin section and like 4 other sites just like it. someone posted dhgate recently?
@dollarfan said:
The latest fake 1881 just sold. Seller and eBay both didn't care. Wtf.
Disagree; pretty sure the response will be the removal of the listing.
I hope you are correct. It shows under sold items as best offer accepted. I can't thank you enough burfle23 for doing what you do along with the others who hate this counterfeit scam like us.
What!
That is 38 pages of photos (from ebay mostly) and if I recall correctly 3681 total photos???
if we really want to go pscyhoman crazy, we can post the links here like alibabas coin section and like 4 other sites just like it. someone posted dhgate recently?
Your right to criticize this post if you want; I have shown Dhgate and Ali examples that supplement ones sold in other main stream auction sites as genuine and continue to; I certainly look at the other sites to see what else is out there.
@burfle23 said:
Your right to criticize this post if you want; I have shown Dhgate and Ali examples that supplement ones sold in other main stream auction sites as genuine and continue to; I certainly look at the other sites to see what else is out there.
not sure how criticizing came into the picture. i'm just trying to assist in providing links in this thread that you or others may find useful in tracking down known counterfeit certs and there are some sources that will probably provide a plethora of them unfortunately especially since ebay is probably not the main source of them.
I did not follow the rules in the OP (finding the real one and looking up the certs...). These are from the lancenewman link above and copied below for easy reference. This is a simple list of the pcgs cert number and brief label description from the photos of the pcgs slabs and described as counterfeit. I did not check any certs or anything. I thought the list might give a better 'view' of the stuff they listed that is/was out there. This is from page 1, 2, 3 but there are 37 pages. There are some repeated ones so I assume they were found more than once. I did skip some. Also I double checked them but could be some typos still.
. https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay
.
PCGS Cert# - Brief Label Description
.
From page (1)
10422378 1916-D AU50
21757884 $1 1899 MS64
28206887 1893-S Genuine
27530434 1889-CC XF40
25046571 $1 1892-CC MS65
3405589 1893-S MS63
26538736 $1 1903 MS63
13676594 1893-S VF30
15505142 1893-S AU50
18041741 1916-D XF40
27672044 $1 1880-CC MS64 GSA
04366994 $1 1893-CC MS62
12282759 1889-CC AU50
27248579 1893-S F15
10012272 1884-S MS61
25589583 $1 1892-S AU58
12127020 1C 1960-D MS67RD small date
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv
50204100 25C 1932-D MS65
.
From page (2)
27925308 1893-S VF20
15848724 $1 1894 AU55
12282759 1889-CC AU50
13386675 1889-CC AU50
26774270 $1 1895-O AU50
18657272 1909-S VDB MS65 RB
26130133 $1 1894-O AU58
21004948 $1 1894 AU55
9596460 $1 1881-CC MS63
08889126 1C 1856 MS62 flying eagle
25581391 1879-CC MS64
20148771 1889-CC AU50
3474741 1889-CC AU50
13195475 1916-D MS62 FB
16436810 $1 1799 XF45
12474870 1916-D MS63 FB
.
From page (3)
08566440 1893-S XF45
18041741 1916-D XF40
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv
25114815 1909-S VDB MS64 RB
26382482 $1 Trade 1876-CC AU58
10069673 $1 Trade 1874-S MS63
05595525 1893-S AU50
21315075 $1 Trade 1874-CC MS62
24733365 $1 1928 AU53
12197477 $1 1893-O AU58
16432932 $1 Trade 1875-CC AU58
26913159 1C 1909-S VDB AU58
16436810 $1 1799 XF45
11228548 1893-S XF45
13386675 1889-CC AU50
19803393 1889-CC XF45
14683787 $1 1922-S MS65
25399542 $1 1891 MS65
50020984 5C 1926-S MS64
08566440 1893-S XF45
11228548 1893-S XF45
25295823 1893-S AU50
3474741 1889-CC AU50
Update to the previous list.
Copy and pasted the cert number to the cert lookup and listed the results (active matches, Cert Not Found...).
If active cert page had an auction listing then copied auction link below.
The ones with the auction listing are ready to go almost for full page (has photo on Flickr and then actual in auction link, and then include cert page).
I tried to note the duplicates but probably missed a couple.
1795 VF30 Draped Bust dollar cert number 12841184.
Love this one, as I wrote a Coin Week article on another "family" of counterfeits based on the 1795 OC bust dollars but had not seen a "slabbed" one before!
Nicknamed the "vampire counterfeits" for obvious reasons:
On-line cert with no images but a previous Heritage auction record:
i can see some people across the usa getting fooled by those inserts (unless they don't scan) but NOT those coins. SURELY they also feel quite different in hand as that is a big chunk of gold!
Thought I'd add this here since the auction ended without event, and the auction house said they'd inform the winning bidder. Since this didn't happen and PCGS hasn't yet taken action, I see no harm.
I came across this 1938 nickel that I believe is altered to appear CAM. Here is the coin with the main area of concern circled:
And the write up I provided the auction company:
As I was looking at this coin I knew it was one of three cameos that currently exist, so I wanted to try and die match it - that is, to find other coins struck by the die that maybe aren't cameo, but much more attractive than your average coin. I continued to try to do this even after I had identified it as an altered coin. I concluded that there are no other coins struck by this obverse (FS-403 obverse) and a reverse of this quality. I also found that no 1938 proof nickel shows a reverse approaching the contrast shown on the reverse of the coin we are discussing, even the NGC cameo coins. This is something that I have never encountered - that is, I have always been able to die match a coin from this era (including matching contrast). I did, however, confirm that this obverse and reverse were indeed paired, so the coin is genuine, but the reverse never showed any sort of contrast approaching cameo (it was brilliant even though the obverse was cameo).
The second reason is the brush-like texture to the left side of Monticello. I have never seen a proof from this era with this kind of texture or markings, and there is no reason for how it could be created at the mint. This texture would be highly indicative of the alteration process I described above, and since there was no process that could have ever made that appearance during the minting process, it must have been done outside the mint. The overall texture of the frost is also quite unlike anything I have ever seen, as the frost is rarely this smooth. I will attach a picture of my 1938 nickel so you can compare the frost texture.
The last point is that this coin has spots of brilliance in strange areas. It appears that those brilliant spots appear where the brush of the alterer missed the area because they were hard to reach. I also compared these areas to coins from the same die pair, and noticed immediately that the brilliant areas did not match up. The areas that were brilliant on the 1938 PR67CAM coin were frosted on a coin with less contrast. This only makes sense if you consider the possibility of an alteration.
Photo lighting can play tricks with how a coin appears and the haze that is on both sides of the coin could be catching the light differently. The brush like texture matches the lines in the fields. Proof coins are very hard to tamper with and not be caught by PCGS. I would take a WAG that if you bought the coin and dipped it much of what you are seeing would be gone. I would also guess the coin didn't look like that when PCGS graded it and it has turned in the holder.
Just my 2 cents
I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again.
I would agree with you on all counts, except for a few reasons. I see that I had missed the description of the alteration process when I copied and pasted, so I'll write it here. I don't really want to argue over this, but I do think it is a good conversation to have.
This was a very common alteration in this era of slabs (late 1990s) and PCGS and NGC got fooled more than once with it. That's why it being in a PCGS slab doesn't really have as much pull as it usually does. The companies have been seeking out the coins that got slabbed, and they try their hardest to get them back.
Anyways, an alterer would take a brush and apply a substance to the devices that would make them appear white in color. The white substance would show up in the fields over time (though what you highlighted could just as well be the picture), and the areas the alterer missed (showing brilliance) would be the areas that the brush didn't reach, not the low points on the die. You can see this on the reverse - on the third section from the left of Monticello, there is brilliance at the side of the wall. This is a rather high point on the die, and unlikely to be brilliant if areas lower than it are frosted. That brushlike texture is a huge red flag, and there is also the point that coins that are not designated cameo having frost in areas this coin has brilliance. This can be summarized by saying coins with less frost from the same die pair have frost in areas that this coin has brilliance, whereas a true cameo would match the other coins, albeit with more frost.
I really appreciate your comments! I could be wrong as well, but I thought I should let PCGS know just in case.
@burfle23 said:
1883 AU50 Hawaii $1 cert number 83873486.
Currently listed and bid at $405 this morning:
Fortunately the on-line cert has a past HA auction link:
That one has the best gold bar and G (in pcgs) on the reverse label I have seen. Someone is getting that dialed in.
The listed past HA link - This is another good reason for pcgs to not delete the cert numbers but rather put a notice on the cert number about the fakes/counterfeits. I also previously suggested other steps.
Comments
There are 2 more of these listed on ebay currently
I have always waited for "the decade" when counterfeits would be 100% imitations of genuine ones.
Coins as a hobby rely on authenticating what if every coin would be suddenly "authenticity unverifiable" starting now...
Exact well made copy clones everywhere without no means to tell them from genuine sample but past owners words.
Today machines and 3D-cameras exist for 100% replication of coins.
Machine vision can create all sorts of things with CNC.
They are here! Read my articles on the really deceptive ones in Coin Week!
@dollarfan that makes 9 documented so far...
Trying not to sound over concerned here, but this is bad news. We shouldn’t have to buy every coin with nfc technology to prevent being scammed.
So from the other thread burfle23 left a link to some of his articles on counterfeit coins. Finally got some time and read through about 10 on the first page (all but one silver). Thought I would drop the link here in case any one else wants to give them a look.
Note: software would not allow me to copy link (comment will appear after it is approved). Something about me and coin week as it has done this before. So I copied the comment with the link from burfle23 in the other thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13367178/#Comment_13367178
Not wanting to do the opposite and sound unconcerned but I have noticed that much of this is appearing through eBay or similar sources. I notice at shows like, ANA, Baltimore, FUN... that the counterfeit slab is more closely related to a rare find. Again don't want to sound unconcerned because it seems to be growing. As I noted in my previous thread - how do we get more visibility to the counterfeit/fake slab. Also from the above noted link there are some 'good' counterfeit coins.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
you don't have to buy certified coins and also, learning a series, inside and out, as exhausting as that may seem is just the way of the future in ANY collectables field or buy from people you KNOW are true experts in counterfeit detection. short of that, and even then pros can still miss, is just the life we have here on earth. always has been and always will be.
tbh, i think numismatics (for now) is getting off easy. comics, signatures, cards, games etc are being absolutely WWIII with counterfeits. it is plain and simple, no-holds-barred at this point.
c'est la vie, caveat emptor, illud est quod est and on and on...
Update 11/07/22: added summary of all items reported in this post to the top!
Two more of the same 1881cc fakes on ebay. I contacted sellers, one took down listing. Other replied but hasn't removed. New listing. Please report and contact seller. Un real.
Do you get the feeling on that one that someone could have made up 100 (to pick a number) at a time?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
The amount from different sellers that I have seen is probably close to a dozen. One seller also has a "rolex" that looks like a toy watch
here is some fodder if you didn't already have it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/
This is amazing...
I will contact him as well @dollarfan :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195460357953?hash=item2d82585f41:g:r24AAOSw3gJjarxM&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoEK4lXLjOQl+wsqUl0P0BZXQ+0IgjUuaWn6pes7D2ut2ZZ2UYCiFg8buVv/0O/R7Bsn5pWLvwkwdJr43lzvTTWMUmWsFCGBOueIenN5DNG34SyUNprXUCtCxfZqHLiDxQQfAAPIqCFq1S8FFZRRZE55VLMMOxdFEuXeqf0C9d1Pg1sUPeH/Z0PO5DGDFGApcPgf+8lz5DUuOVIT9cgcU6IM=|tkp:Bk9SR7iQ3JqLYQ
that one is done so poorly i am amazed they remembered to make it round!
What!
That is 38 pages of photos (from ebay mostly) and if I recall correctly 3681 total photos???
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
if we really want to go pscyhoman crazy, we can post the links here like alibabas coin section and like 4 other sites just like it. someone posted dhgate recently?
The latest fake 1881 just sold. Seller and eBay both didn't care. Wtf.
Disagree; pretty sure the response will be the removal of the listing.
Actually already received the orange hoodie award.
I hope you are correct. It shows under sold items as best offer accepted. I can't thank you enough burfle23 for doing what you do along with the others who hate this counterfeit scam like us.
Thanks @dollarfan ; when you click on the sold item you get this:
Your right to criticize this post if you want; I have shown Dhgate and Ali examples that supplement ones sold in other main stream auction sites as genuine and continue to; I certainly look at the other sites to see what else is out there.
not sure how criticizing came into the picture. i'm just trying to assist in providing links in this thread that you or others may find useful in tracking down known counterfeit certs and there are some sources that will probably provide a plethora of them unfortunately especially since ebay is probably not the main source of them.
happy hunting !
1795 VF20 Dollar cert number 13506307.
Interesting fake 1795$ found thanks to @LanceNewmanOCC ...
PCGS cert has no image or auction reference but I found the genuine example through Heritage:
Bar code does not read correctly on the fake, but brings up a Chinese coin instead- how ironic!
I did not follow the rules in the OP (finding the real one and looking up the certs...). These are from the lancenewman link above and copied below for easy reference. This is a simple list of the pcgs cert number and brief label description from the photos of the pcgs slabs and described as counterfeit. I did not check any certs or anything. I thought the list might give a better 'view' of the stuff they listed that is/was out there. This is from page 1, 2, 3 but there are 37 pages. There are some repeated ones so I assume they were found more than once. I did skip some. Also I double checked them but could be some typos still.
.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay
.
PCGS Cert# - Brief Label Description
.
From page (1)
10422378 1916-D AU50
21757884 $1 1899 MS64
28206887 1893-S Genuine
27530434 1889-CC XF40
25046571 $1 1892-CC MS65
3405589 1893-S MS63
26538736 $1 1903 MS63
13676594 1893-S VF30
15505142 1893-S AU50
18041741 1916-D XF40
27672044 $1 1880-CC MS64 GSA
04366994 $1 1893-CC MS62
12282759 1889-CC AU50
27248579 1893-S F15
10012272 1884-S MS61
25589583 $1 1892-S AU58
12127020 1C 1960-D MS67RD small date
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv
50204100 25C 1932-D MS65
.
From page (2)
27925308 1893-S VF20
15848724 $1 1894 AU55
12282759 1889-CC AU50
13386675 1889-CC AU50
26774270 $1 1895-O AU50
18657272 1909-S VDB MS65 RB
26130133 $1 1894-O AU58
21004948 $1 1894 AU55
9596460 $1 1881-CC MS63
08889126 1C 1856 MS62 flying eagle
25581391 1879-CC MS64
20148771 1889-CC AU50
3474741 1889-CC AU50
13195475 1916-D MS62 FB
16436810 $1 1799 XF45
12474870 1916-D MS63 FB
.
From page (3)
08566440 1893-S XF45
18041741 1916-D XF40
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv
25114815 1909-S VDB MS64 RB
26382482 $1 Trade 1876-CC AU58
10069673 $1 Trade 1874-S MS63
05595525 1893-S AU50
21315075 $1 Trade 1874-CC MS62
24733365 $1 1928 AU53
12197477 $1 1893-O AU58
16432932 $1 Trade 1875-CC AU58
26913159 1C 1909-S VDB AU58
16436810 $1 1799 XF45
11228548 1893-S XF45
13386675 1889-CC AU50
19803393 1889-CC XF45
14683787 $1 1922-S MS65
25399542 $1 1891 MS65
50020984 5C 1926-S MS64
08566440 1893-S XF45
11228548 1893-S XF45
25295823 1893-S AU50
3474741 1889-CC AU50
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Awesome summary @lilolme .
1801 VF35 Draped Bust Dollar cert number 21935223.
Another oldie but goodie found with the help of @LanceNewmanOCC and @lilolme 's list...
Cert appears inactive (if it were good in the 1st place!):
Bar code does not read correctly but links to a 1901 25c!
I hadn't seen a "slabbed" one before but wrote a Coin Week article on this "family" of fakes:
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/struck-counterfeit-coins-a-second-family-of-struck-fake-draped-bust-dollars/
11/11 UPDATE- found the genuine example, so the cert must have been good at one time...
Update to the previous list.
Copy and pasted the cert number to the cert lookup and listed the results (active matches, Cert Not Found...).
If active cert page had an auction listing then copied auction link below.
The ones with the auction listing are ready to go almost for full page (has photo on Flickr and then actual in auction link, and then include cert page).
I tried to note the duplicates but probably missed a couple.
Again for easy reference the Flickr link:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay
PCGS Cert# - Brief Label Description / cert lookup results active matches, Cert Not Found... / auction link if on Cert page
.
From page (1)
10422378 1916-D AU50 / active matches 1916-D AU50 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1916-d-10c-au50-pcgs-a-high-grade-for-this-famous-key-date-which-is-most-often-encountered-in-vg-or-lower-grades-the-sub/a/422-2700.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
21757884 $1 1899 MS64 / active matches 1899 MS64 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1899-1-ms64-pcgs-pcgs-population-3771-1348-ngc-census-2861-669-mintage-330-846-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/1204-10576.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
28206887 1893-S Genuine / active matches 1893-S Genuine (92 cleaned)
27530434 1889-CC XF40 / active matches 1889-CC XF40
25046571 $1 1892-CC MS65 / active matches 1892-CC MS65
3405589 1893-S MS63 / active matches 1893-S MS63 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-s-1-ms63-pcgs/a/360-30333.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
26538736 $1 1903 MS63 / active matches 1903 MS63 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1903-1-ms63-pcgs-pcgs-population-2816-8352-ngc-census-2265-7259-mintage-4-652-755-numismedia-wsl-price-for-prob/a/131405-29180.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
13676594 1893-S VF30 / active matches 1893-S VF30 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-1-vf30-pcgs/a/1204-4926.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
15505142 1893-S AU50 / Cert Not Found
18041741 1916-D XF40 / Cert Not Found
27672044 $1 1880-CC MS64 GSA / active matches 1880-CC MS64 GSA
04366994 $1 1893-CC MS62 / active matches 1893-CC MS62 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-cc-1-ms62-pcgs-pcgs-population-819-1193-ngc-census-359-482-mintage-677-000-numismedia-wsl-price-3-875-/a/26011-11245.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
12282759 1889-CC AU50 / Cert Not Found
27248579 1893-S F15 / active matches 1893-S F15
10012272 1884-S MS61 / Cert Not Found
25589583 $1 1892-S AU58 / active matches 1892-S AU58 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1892-s-1-au58-pcgs/a/1156-4049.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
12127020 1C 1960-D MS67RD small date / active 1960-D MS67RD large date with TV (Note: slab has small date) / https://www.davidlawrence.com/product/2357221/
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv / active matches 1955 DDO AU55 BN / https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-cents/1955-1c-doubled-die-obverse-au55-pcgs-pcgs-population-636-1797-ngc-census-377-2022-mintage-5-000-numismedia-wsl/a/131314-20075.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
50204100 25C 1932-D MS65 / Cert Not Found
.
From page (2)
27925308 1893-S VF20 / active matches 1893-S VF20
15848724 $1 1894 AU55 / active matches 1894 AU55 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1894-1-au55-pcgs/a/1129-1151.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
12282759 1889-CC AU50 / Cert Not Found
13386675 1889-CC AU50 / active matches 1889-CC AU50 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1889-cc-1-au50-pcgs-pcgs-population-200-717-ngc-census-155-745-mintage-350-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-ngc-pcg/a/27122-13380.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
26774270 $1 1895-O AU50 / active matches 1895-O AU50 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-au50-pcgs/a/1184-4952.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
18657272 1909-S VDB MS65 RB / Cert Not Found
26130133 $1 1894-O AU58 / active matches 1894-O AU58 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1894-o-1-au58-pcgs-pcgs-population-464-1139-ngc-census-726-945-mintage-1-723-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-probl/a/1175-9898.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
21004948 $1 1894 AU55 / active matches 1894 AU55
9596460 $1 1881-CC MS63 / active matches 1881-CC MS63 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1881-cc-1-ms63-pcgs-pcgs-population-5385-15451-ngc-census-3028-7029-cdn-650-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms63-minta/a/60230-91282.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
08889126 1C 1856 MS62 flying eagle / active matches 1856 MS62 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/1856-1c-ms62-pcgs/a/446-125.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
25581391 1879-CC MS64 / active matches 1879-CC MS64
20148771 1889-CC AU50 / active matches 1889-CC AU50
3474741 1889-CC AU50 / active matches 1889-CC AU50
13195475 1916-D MS62 FB / active matches 1916-D MS62 FB / https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1916-d-10c-ms62-full-bands-pcgs/a/1140-908.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
16436810 $1 1799 XF45 / active matches 1799 XF45 / https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-27N2I/1799-draped-bust-silver-dollar-bb-169-b-21-rarity-3-bowers-die-state-iv-ef-45-pcgs
12474870 1916-D MS63 FB / active matches 1916-D MS63 FB / https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1916-d-10c-ms63-full-bands-pcgs/a/1124-2274.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
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From page (3)
08566440 1893-S XF45 / active matches 1893-S XF45 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-1-xf45-pcgs-both-sides-of-this-rare-date-morgan-dollar-display-a-uniform-dove-gray-f/a/428-1576.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
18041741 1916-D XF40 / Cert Not Found
06746953 1C 1955 AU55 double die obv / active matches 1955 DDO AU55 / duplicate see above page 1
25114815 1909-S VDB MS64 RB / active matches 1909-S VDB MS64 RB / https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-cents/1909-s-vdb-1c-ms64-red-and-brown-pcgs-cac/a/1174-3498.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
26382482 $1 Trade 1876-CC AU58 / Cert Not Found
10069673 $1 Trade 1874-S MS63 / active matches 1874-S MS63 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1874-s-t-1-ms63-pcgs-pcgs-population-43-23-ngc-census-30-19-mintage-2-549-000-numismedia-wsl-price-1-375-703/a/26044-11279.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
05595525 1893-S AU50 / active matches 1893-S AU50 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-1-au50-pcgs/a/460-1398.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
21315075 $1 Trade 1874-CC MS62 / Cert Not Found
24733365 $1 1928 AU53 / active matches 1928 AU53 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/peace-dollars/1928-1-au53-pcgs-pcgs-population-161-7184-ngc-census-99-5291-mintage-360-649-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem-f/a/1175-10112.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
12197477 $1 1893-O AU58 / Cert Not Found
16432932 $1 Trade 1875-CC AU58 / active matches 1875-CC AU58 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1875-cc-t-1-au58-pcgs/a/1142-3849.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
26913159 1C 1909-S VDB AU58 / active matches 1909-S VDB AU58 BN
16436810 $1 1799 XF45 / active matches 1799 XF45 (duplicate, see above page 2)
11228548 1893-S XF45 / active matches 1893-S XF45 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1893-s-1-xf45-pcgs/a/454-2990.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
13386675 1889-CC AU50 / active matches 1889-CC AU50 (duplicate see page 2 above)
19803393 1889-CC XF45 / active matches 1889-CC XF45 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1889-cc-1-xf45-pcgs/a/1280-3788.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
14683787 $1 1922-S MS65 / active matches 1922-S MS65
25399542 $1 1891 MS65 / Cert Not Found
50020984 5C 1926-S MS64 / Cert Not Found
08566440 1893-S XF45 / active matches 1893-S XF45 (duplicate see page 3 above)
11228548 1893-S XF45 / active matches 1893-S XF45 (duplicate see page 3 above)
25295823 1893-S AU50 / active matchers 1893-S XF50
3474741 1889-CC AU50 / active matches 1889-CC AU50
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
1795 VF30 Draped Bust dollar cert number 12841184.
Love this one, as I wrote a Coin Week article on another "family" of counterfeits based on the 1795 OC bust dollars but had not seen a "slabbed" one before!
Nicknamed the "vampire counterfeits" for obvious reasons:
On-line cert with no images but a previous Heritage auction record:
Genuine example:
Coin Week article for anyone interested:
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/struck-counterfeit-coins-a-family-of-struck-fake-draped-bust-dollars/
Let's see if this works - First one from the list above:
10422378 1916-D AU50 / active matches 1916-D AU50 / https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/1916-d-10c-au50-pcgs-a-high-grade-for-this-famous-key-date-which-is-most-often-encountered-in-vg-or-lower-grades-the-sub/a/422-2700.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
https://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay
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PCGS Cert Page:
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From Heritage (link above), you can see the barcode does not match to start with.
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Nice add, and the list is a huge help!
1799 EX45 (from the cert) 1799 Bust Dollar cert number 16436810.
Another fun one, right out of one of my Coin Week articles!
2 on-line examples:
Attribution marks match from my article; I actually own the 3rd example:
Cert has no image but an auction reference:
Genuine example:
Weekend chuckle
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1885-CC MS67 Morgan Dollar cert number 39045955.
I added this one because I have not seen a worse counterfeit/ counterfeit holder:
On-line cert with image:
Genuine example:
Wow that one is exceptional. This exposure of these fakes priceless knowledge.
@dollarfan "This exposure of these fakes priceless knowledge."
Agree
2011-W PR70DCAM $50 buffalo cert number 81852632.
Found several image of the bad example in several on-line forums but not the genuine example to compare:
Cert is inactive:
I like the notice from PCGS management, it looks like they are trying to make some productive changes.
i can see some people across the usa getting fooled by those inserts (unless they don't scan) but NOT those coins. SURELY they also feel quite different in hand as that is a big chunk of gold!
1878-CC MS65 VAM 11 Morgan Dollar cert number 22044370.
This is an odd one!
The 1st bad example hit a pretty significant price as listed:
2nd listed image compared to the 1st:
Genuine example (on the left) found in a Heritage past auction with no help from the on-line cert!
Genuine one also sold on eBay per Worthpoint:
On-line cert has the wrong certed coin image:
That looks like it has the wrong reverse for the 78 and therefore the wrong reverse for a Vam 11
that is the one nicknamed "z wing" right? super common.
i agree about the notice on the page. we only have 2 choices. accept reality or keep our heads in the sand. the problem IS NOT going away.
@burfle23
do you use pcgs APR?
Thought I'd add this here since the auction ended without event, and the auction house said they'd inform the winning bidder. Since this didn't happen and PCGS hasn't yet taken action, I see no harm.
I came across this 1938 nickel that I believe is altered to appear CAM. Here is the coin with the main area of concern circled:
And the write up I provided the auction company:
As I was looking at this coin I knew it was one of three cameos that currently exist, so I wanted to try and die match it - that is, to find other coins struck by the die that maybe aren't cameo, but much more attractive than your average coin. I continued to try to do this even after I had identified it as an altered coin. I concluded that there are no other coins struck by this obverse (FS-403 obverse) and a reverse of this quality. I also found that no 1938 proof nickel shows a reverse approaching the contrast shown on the reverse of the coin we are discussing, even the NGC cameo coins. This is something that I have never encountered - that is, I have always been able to die match a coin from this era (including matching contrast). I did, however, confirm that this obverse and reverse were indeed paired, so the coin is genuine, but the reverse never showed any sort of contrast approaching cameo (it was brilliant even though the obverse was cameo).
The second reason is the brush-like texture to the left side of Monticello. I have never seen a proof from this era with this kind of texture or markings, and there is no reason for how it could be created at the mint. This texture would be highly indicative of the alteration process I described above, and since there was no process that could have ever made that appearance during the minting process, it must have been done outside the mint. The overall texture of the frost is also quite unlike anything I have ever seen, as the frost is rarely this smooth. I will attach a picture of my 1938 nickel so you can compare the frost texture.
The last point is that this coin has spots of brilliance in strange areas. It appears that those brilliant spots appear where the brush of the alterer missed the area because they were hard to reach. I also compared these areas to coins from the same die pair, and noticed immediately that the brilliant areas did not match up. The areas that were brilliant on the 1938 PR67CAM coin were frosted on a coin with less contrast. This only makes sense if you consider the possibility of an alteration.
Coin Photographer.
@FlyingAl It looks like it was cleaned and not properly rinsed, the entire reverse looks like it has hazy wipe marks.
While this may be possible, it still doesn't explain the frost discrepancies.
Coin Photographer.
Photo lighting can play tricks with how a coin appears and the haze that is on both sides of the coin could be catching the light differently. The brush like texture matches the lines in the fields. Proof coins are very hard to tamper with and not be caught by PCGS. I would take a WAG that if you bought the coin and dipped it much of what you are seeing would be gone. I would also guess the coin didn't look like that when PCGS graded it and it has turned in the holder.
Just my 2 cents
I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again.
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it looks sus
@ifthevamzarockin
I would agree with you on all counts, except for a few reasons. I see that I had missed the description of the alteration process when I copied and pasted, so I'll write it here. I don't really want to argue over this, but I do think it is a good conversation to have.
This was a very common alteration in this era of slabs (late 1990s) and PCGS and NGC got fooled more than once with it. That's why it being in a PCGS slab doesn't really have as much pull as it usually does. The companies have been seeking out the coins that got slabbed, and they try their hardest to get them back.
Anyways, an alterer would take a brush and apply a substance to the devices that would make them appear white in color. The white substance would show up in the fields over time (though what you highlighted could just as well be the picture), and the areas the alterer missed (showing brilliance) would be the areas that the brush didn't reach, not the low points on the die. You can see this on the reverse - on the third section from the left of Monticello, there is brilliance at the side of the wall. This is a rather high point on the die, and unlikely to be brilliant if areas lower than it are frosted. That brushlike texture is a huge red flag, and there is also the point that coins that are not designated cameo having frost in areas this coin has brilliance. This can be summarized by saying coins with less frost from the same die pair have frost in areas that this coin has brilliance, whereas a true cameo would match the other coins, albeit with more frost.
I really appreciate your comments! I could be wrong as well, but I thought I should let PCGS know just in case.
Coin Photographer.
1883 AU50 Hawaii $1 cert number 83873486.
Currently listed and bid at $405 this morning:
Fortunately the on-line cert has a past HA auction link:
Bad barcode scans as a GB Trade$:
UPDATE: listing was removed...
That one has the best gold bar and G (in pcgs) on the reverse label I have seen. Someone is getting that dialed in.
The listed past HA link - This is another good reason for pcgs to not delete the cert numbers but rather put a notice on the cert number about the fakes/counterfeits. I also previously suggested other steps.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Another example of our favorite fake 1881 cc morgan is live on the bay. Same coin.