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Bidding blind in foreign sales
Boosibri
Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
It’s really gambling…
Care to share you best and worst gambles.
My best was a “GEF” Pillar 1R that turned into the first MS65 graded example for the type.
Worst was wasting $2000 in a Noble auction on a seated half that was planed and wizzed. Stupid me.
Took a gamble on a pillar 8 last week in a Spanish auction that had original liking toning. The pictures failed to capture the patch of hairlines in the fields.
Oh well, small dollars and some fun when MrE isn’t covering the sale.
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I can't think of anything off the top of my head I bought in recent years without pics.
Yet it was pretty normal back in the day blind bidding at Teletrade just punching numbers in a corded dial tone phone.
That being said even with pics that are poor we all take gambles at times with some wins and some losses.
Actually, every ICCS double sealed flip token I buy from scans is a gamble.
I have bought a lot of good coins from non-US auctions but hedged my risk by mostly winning with modest bids.
Most I have ever bid was about $1000 for a 1764 Mexico pillar 2R Aureo & Calico graded SC-. It's the Trestamara coin now in an NGC MS-61 holder. (It's a slider with a really good strike on the pillar side and spectacular toning on the crown side.)
I haven't had any total busts due to my limited bids. Some "details" coins I paid up to $300 that might be worth half. A few buys where I paid more and the coin came back with a grade where the coin is also worth about half. If I ever sell any of these, I'll crack it out and consign to Calico, since the coins are worth more outside of the holder than in it.
By bidding blind I mean without seeing in hand. In all cases I’ve seen pictures
Latin American Collection
Bought this one in an auction in San Marino, raw (still raw). I think it is amazing
This one I bought raw at Künker, very pleased
But it is always a gamble.
Oh okay... Do that all the time.
This looked too good to be true for ICCS AU55 even with tape residue on the obverse flip. Turned out to be NET graded MS for the reverse having been lightly cleaned. Might still grade MSRB at PCGS or NGC as I've seen far worse straight graded surfaces in slabs.
Dealer Pics:
My Pics:
As Matt Damon reminds us...
And I'll add that...sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. I'm about 50-50 success vs. failure with these blind foreign auctions. High risk. Sometimes high reward, but there are many stinkers.
It remains a challenge to find the right coin. And in some instances, the right coin just needs to be seen to develop the right strategy to acquire it.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's only money, and usually worth it, just not always.
I bid on raw coins like this regularly, though I sort through a LOT of auctions and don't bid on many lots. I think you can reduce your downside by staying away from certain auction houses. I have sometimes made test purchases - relatively small purchases so I can then "translate" pictures into the in hand appearance.
A winner - auction house photos then TV
Graded 63+
My current "Box of 20"
Definitely a winner. Beautiful coin.
It's gambling. If I had to guess, I'm at about 50% rate of being satisfied with bidding on overseas auctions based on images only. Maybe slightly less for specific auction houses. My best gambles are a few nice AU58's and a key date 1814/3-HJ 8 Reales I picked up from the Jose Leunda sale a while back. Nothing too fancy. Worst gamble would probably be either an 8 Escudos I picked from Aureo a few years back that was polished or an MS pillar 8 Reales littered with hairlines that were not apparent in the photos or mentioned in the description.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I've been disappointed by Numisor and Katz photos of raw coins
and Katz constant selling of artificially toned coins
Latin American Collection
I’ve bought an AT coin from Kuenker as well.
I don’t even bother to buy sight unseen from Spain any longer, unless it’s in a slab.
To show just how bad this can be, this is currently live at Katz, described as having "outstanding toning".
Auction page: https://katzauction.com/lots?to_page=1&auction_id=69&lot_number=3096
Aureo & Calico is good at responding to my questions on their lots. Still, since they don't use TPG standards, unexpected surprises occur. I bought one pillar dollar from them (1734 Mexico) which came back "tooled". It wasn't evident to me and I assume they missed it.
It’s pathetic
Latin American Collection
How does one say "FAKE MONSTER" in Russian?
Very much concur w/this. Interpreting... "reading"... photography is an acquired skill whether on eBay or from top houses. Over time, you can get a feel for what those pieces might look like in "real life". Of course, sometimes it's impossible. People have been pointing out the Spanish houses, which is my main experience... they almost ALL use way-too-bright lighting which washes everything out... literally eBay Trick #1 from 20 years ago. Impossible to gauge surfaces on a high-grade "white" silver coin from photos like that...
Also, coincidentally enough, they seem to avoid the word "limpiada" almost as if it was the word for snow in Swahili.
I’m not comfortable bidding on coins based on anyone’s images, but I know for a fact that NumisOr tries really hard to get their pictures right.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
They also - unbelievably! - put the coins in a couple high grade lots in one linder envelope to rub around during shipment. So not only did they look way different from the house images, they picked up a little extra abrasion during the trip. SMH bad. The certified coins were okay, but only because I could see the image on NGC or PCGS, because there was a difference. I felt deceived by my experiences, to the point where I felt bad every time I looked at my winnings. So, I went all KonMarie and dumped everything I ever won from Numisor cheap to my collecting buddies. That shop is still 86ed in my mind, though they do have a certified coin in their next auction I like. This screed was cathartic, maybe I'll give them another chance.
At least you can get the coins that are sent to you. I've had one hung up in customs and now it's missing. I have received very poor service from the shipping service, which one of the big ones. Believe it or not, the U.S. Post Office is far better.
I somewhat regularly but coins from auction without photos or from bid/buy/mail order lists. There are winners and losers, but I feel like I've won more than lost. However, I'm generally dealing with lower value stuff than some people here.
If you count auction photos as being blind, then it's all I do. I've had some disappointments this year with cleaned coins, particularly when starting to buy with outfits I don't have a long history with. There is a learning curve to learn how they photograph and write descriptions. I try to buy a handful of lower value lots as a sample of I'm still pretty new. Once I feel like I have the place "figured out" I'm more comfortable going deeper.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
I can't buy a coin retail from abroad. The way auctions stink in general, I could not image adding that to the mix.
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People have been pointing out the Spanish houses, which is my main experience... they almost ALL use way-too-bright lighting which washes everything out... literally eBay Trick #1 from 20 years ago. Impossible to gauge surfaces on a high-grade "white" silver coin from photos like that...
In my experience with Aureo & Calico, I think they try to describe their coins accurately, but all the Spanish auction firms apparently use "net" grading". So, I have learned to assume that if the coin wear looks different from the assigned grade, it's "net" graded for some reason including cleaning.
I just bided couple coins with Numis this week. I was high on prebid but all out bided by live bidders
It's not that they "missed it," but that they just don't see the problems we do here (due to US grading service influence on grading here). As you said in another post (and I agree), the whole US numismatic "industry" has been financialized, and the grading services rule the roost. So US collectors (and possibly those from other countries who buy slabs) have been "educated" by the grading services what is "good" and "bad." Collectors and dealers in Spain have been less influenced by US grading standards, so they tend to just overlook what might appear bad to us.