I would like to thank Ian for being so responsive and handling this issue for me.
I will also say I was unaware of the credit being issued until Ian informed me of that as there was no communication from GC to let me know they added a credit to my consignor account. That would’ve satisfied me at that point, rather than feeling ignored and letting it stew for 2 weeks with no communication.
Never a doubt in my mind. One of the few remaining customer service business left in the world...And yes, I am off to the post office with more coins to send for Great Collections this morning. Enough said.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
GC most certainly has my approval. Sold via many auction sites and have never had the level of service offered me by GC. Sorry you are having an issue, but hopefully it will be resolved.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
@MFeld said:
“Do you guys think this is a PCGS issue or GC being to picky with PCGS’s sealing process?”
How could anyone even begin to answer that question, fairly, without first seeing the coin and the holder, in hand?
Seriously? Commenting on shortcomings of coins, grading services, and auction companies without seeing evidence to give an informed opinion is what this forum does best. Oh, wait... you said "fairly." Never mind.
@fathom said:
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
@fathom said:
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
Regards,
Ian
OK you are entitled to run your business as you wish.
Your algorithm is proprietary, you don't have to reveal details.
If a consignor sends material to auction they expect full marketing capabilities.
@Catbert said:
I would have reached out directly to Ian regarding this issue (since he has demonstrated receptivity repeatedly on the forum) vs creating a complaint thread, but that’s just me. Escalation is the normal course of action for addressing complaints
I believe the valid point some here make is that he shouldn't have to reach out to Ian and I believe Ian would agree with this.
Of note is Ian's concern of public opinion is great enough for him to monitor these boards and personally react quickly to address or correct what could be viewed as a GC problem. The man continues to exemplify an exceptional business model.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@fathom said:
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
Regards,
Ian
OK you are entitled to run your business as you wish.
Your algorithm is proprietary, you don't have to reveal details.
If a consignor sends material to auction they expect full marketing capabilities.
I don’t know how the algorithm actually works, but my guess is that having a higher starting price limted the initial bidding activity in the first few days after the auction went live and that a pattern of multiple bids on a new auction is one of the main criteria to get a item added to the Hotlist.
Based on my experience with selling at GC, most of my coins that ended up on the Hotlist did so in a few days of being listed and had several bids. I was mainly selling Morgan dollars with a starting bid of $1. Since Morgan dollars have a wide following, people will generally place a low dollar bid on the lots that they are interested in, just to make it easier to follow. Most of the time the “real biding “ occurs during the last couple of days. A high percentage of my auctions were on the Hotlist.
Did anybody check the spam folder? I've started to see more aggressive filtering from my hosting company... to the point were a lot of messages I expect are being spam filtered...
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@2windy2fish said:
My experience with GC and @ianrussell have been nothing less than stellar! please reserve all judgment until GC gets a chance to sort this out and post the results
I HIGHLY recommend GC and their staff..
To be fair, the OP waited weeks or months. This submission was in January for an auction in April. It is now October. I think he waited long enough to make a judgment. Does it really matter what happens now? He shouldn't have to publicly call out a company to get some resolution. [Assuming all facts presented are accurate ]
How many months were the OP's coins sitting at PCGS and CAC?
That is beyond irrelevant. Read the OPs complaint. He's complaining about money he was charged for a service he didn't request.
If the coins were at PCGS for 5 months then 6 weeks at CAC it’s relevant to the amount of the the OP waited to post this thread.
@2windy2fish said:
My experience with GC and @ianrussell have been nothing less than stellar! please reserve all judgment until GC gets a chance to sort this out and post the results
I HIGHLY recommend GC and their staff..
To be fair, the OP waited weeks or months. This submission was in January for an auction in April. It is now October. I think he waited long enough to make a judgment. Does it really matter what happens now? He shouldn't have to publicly call out a company to get some resolution. [Assuming all facts presented are accurate ]
How many months were the OP's coins sitting at PCGS and CAC?
That is beyond irrelevant. Read the OPs complaint. He's complaining about money he was charged for a service he didn't request.
If the coins were at PCGS for 5 months then 6 weeks at CAC it’s relevant to the amount of the the OP waited to post this thread.
algorithms are at the heart of all digital processing, including electronic coin auctions. Your ebay states sales are computed, collected and forwarded using a unique algorithm that requires root rules that differ with each state.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@fathom said:
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
Regards,
Ian
OK you are entitled to run your business as you wish.
Your algorithm is proprietary, you don't have to reveal details.
If a consignor sends material to auction they expect full marketing capabilities.
I don’t know how the algorithm actually works, but my guess is that having a higher starting price limted the initial bidding activity in the first few days after the auction went live and that a pattern of multiple bids on a new auction is one of the main criteria to get a item added to the Hotlist.
Based on my experience with selling at GC, most of my coins that ended up on the Hotlist did so in a few days of being listed and had several bids. I was mainly selling Morgan dollars with a starting bid of $1. Since Morgan dollars have a wide following, people will generally place a low dollar bid on the lots that they are interested in, just to make it easier to follow. Most of the time the “real biding “ occurs during the last couple of days. A high percentage of my auctions were on the Hotlist.
If the criteria is a low starting bid I didn't set the bids GC did.
So that makes me even more disturbed about the event.
In any case not huge dollar amounts. So be it, lesson learned.
@fathom said:
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
Regards,
Ian
OK you are entitled to run your business as you wish.
Your algorithm is proprietary, you don't have to reveal details.
If a consignor sends material to auction they expect full marketing capabilities.
I don’t know how the algorithm actually works, but my guess is that having a higher starting price limted the initial bidding activity in the first few days after the auction went live and that a pattern of multiple bids on a new auction is one of the main criteria to get a item added to the Hotlist.
Based on my experience with selling at GC, most of my coins that ended up on the Hotlist did so in a few days of being listed and had several bids. I was mainly selling Morgan dollars with a starting bid of $1. Since Morgan dollars have a wide following, people will generally place a low dollar bid on the lots that they are interested in, just to make it easier to follow. Most of the time the “real biding “ occurs during the last couple of days. A high percentage of my auctions were on the Hotlist.
If the criteria is a low starting bid I didn't set the bids GC did.
So that makes me even more disturbed about the event.
In any case not huge dollar amounts. So be it, lesson learned.
Your coins are getting plenty of eyeballs and bids - what is your complaint exactly?
If the criteria is a low starting bid I didn't set the bids GC did.
On the submission form there is a check box that can be selected to start all of your listings at the $1 starting price. I would recommend that option for any coins like Morgan’s that have a lot of collectors that will look at your auctions.
Also some people filter to only look at auctions with existing bids. Those will be selling vs a auction that has a reserve. Your auction didn’t have a high starting bid, but it would cut down on people that will place a very small “tracking” bid on a auction that starts at $1. Or not look at it until closer to the ending date.
Also the Hotlist probably favors higher value coins being included vs lower priced coins.
On the first couple of auctions that I did I also had a higher starting price. I kind of learned on my future auctions to just start at $1 and people will bid, unless the coin has problems or does not have a large collector base.
Your coins having CAC stickers and two of them in old holders probably got more “eyeballs” than if they were on the Hotlist without a CAC sticker. So not being on the Hotlist probably had no effect on the final price.
If the criteria is a low starting bid I didn't set the bids GC did.
On the submission form there is a check box that can be selected to start all of your listings at the $1 starting price. I would recommend that option for any coins like Morgan’s that have a lot of collectors that will look at your auctions.
Also some people filter to only look at auctions with existing bids. Those will be selling vs a auction that has a reserve. Your auction didn’t have a high starting bid, but it would cut down on people that will place a very small “tracking” bid on a auction that starts at $1. Or not look at it until closer to the ending date.
Also the Hotlist probably favors higher value coins being included vs lower priced coins.
On the first couple of auctions that I did I also had a higher starting price. I kind of learned on my future auctions to just start at $1 and people will bid, unless the coin has problems or does not have a large collector base.
Your coins having CAC stickers and two of them in old holders probably got more “eyeballs” than if they were on the Hotlist without a CAC sticker. So not being on the Hotlist probably had no effect on the final price.
Nice coins by the way!
Thanks, well I have not had anything to complain about until this situation.
Its the principle of maximizing exposure and I bristle at having to rely on an algorithm to expose coins that have dozens of active bidders.
Personally I think "algorithm and customer service" are an oxymoron. There is little hope of remediation from a computer source code.
Written by flawed humans. There I'm done, my apologies to Ian if lashing out on social media was inappropriate in this case. I'm biased.
Given the volume of coins and bids, GC and others need a way to automate the priority of each bid. If they didn’t use some kind of decision tree, aka algorithm, then how would it be done? Hundreds of customer service people with 3x5 cards? I get they need an algorithm, if they didn’t have this automated feature, how would you suggest they do it?
@SethChandler said:
Ian and the team at Great Collections are top notch.
If you ever have a problem, call Ian on his cell, ### ### ####. He allows me to call and or text cool pictures of stamps up until midnight.
Please forgive the question, but is Ian OK with you posting his personal cell number?
Maybe he would prefer that customers with issues contact GC first.
I flagged the @SethChandler post giving out someone's personal phone number on a public forum so it can be deleted. This defies common sense and is just wrong.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have bought several coins on Great Collection and only one time was I unhappy and Customer Service failed to address my concern, this was back in 2019. Great Collections state on their web page that bid increments between $1,000 to $2,499.99 are fifty dollars.
During the auction of April 14, 2019, there was a coin I was interest in, a 1978-D Kennedy half dollar graded by PCGS MS-67+. The top bid near the end of the auction was $1,850.00 placed according to the web site at 05:20:28 pm.
I placed a bid for $2,158.00 at 06:02:48 pm and took high bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous bidder maximum bid of $2,057.42.
24 seconds after my high bid, the previous high bidder placed another bid at 06:03:12 pm and won for $2,158.42, only $0.42 higher than my maximum bid.
If the minimum bid at that value was fifty dollars, I didn’t and still don’t understand how $0.42 is equal to $50.
Long story short, after failing to get a satisfactory response from Great Collection, it did leave a sour taste but after getting over it I’ve never had another problem.
@JFK_Collector said:
I have bought several coins on Great Collection and only one time was I unhappy and Customer Service failed to address my concern, this was back in 2019. Great Collections state on their web page that bid increments between $1,000 to $2,499.99 are fifty dollars.
During the auction of April 14, 2019, there was a coin I was interest in, a 1978-D Kennedy half dollar graded by PCGS MS-67+. The top bid near the end of the auction was $1,850.00 placed according to the web site at 05:20:28 pm.
I placed a bid for $2,158.00 at 06:02:48 pm and took high bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous bidder maximum bid of $2,057.42.
24 seconds after my high bid, the previous high bidder placed another bid at 06:03:12 pm and won for $2,158.42, only $0.42 higher than my maximum bid.
If the minimum bid at that value was fifty dollars, I didn’t and still don’t understand how $0.42 is equal to $50.
Long story short, after failing to get a satisfactory response from Great Collection, it did leave a sour taste but after getting over it I’ve never had another problem.
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
@JFK_Collector said:
I placed a bid for $2,158.00 at 06:02:48 pm and took high bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous bidder maximum bid of $2,057.42.
24 seconds after my high bid, the previous high bidder placed another bid at 06:03:12 pm and won for $2,158.42, only $0.42 higher than my maximum bid.
If the minimum bid at that value was fifty dollars, I didn’t and still don’t understand how $0.42 is equal to $50.
Bid increment of $50 means that the bid must be at least $50 over the previous high, not necessarily over anyone's secret bid by that much. The previous high was $2,057.42. So he had to bid at least $2,107.42. In this scenario, he chose to bid $2,158.42 (which meets the $50 minimum) and is higher than your secret bid, so he wins.
If on the other hand, he bid $2,150, he would lose to your $2,158 secret bid by only $8.
So the bidding was correct. Whoever bids more wins. Does that make sense?
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
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>
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I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
If he bid $2500, he would win it at $2,208 ($50 more than you). But all he needed to bid was higher than your secret bid to win it. He wouldn't have to bid $50 over your secret bid to win because he wouldn't know what your secret bid is!
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
>
>
>
I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
>
>
>
I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
Agreed and while you barely lost out in that case, you could just as easily win a lot in a similar fashion some other time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
>
>
>
I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
If the winning bid didn’t have to be one bid increment above the previous high bidder’s secret maximum bid, then why was my high bid recorded at $2057.42 when the recorded high bidder before me was only $1,850?
The only answer is that his secret high bid was $2,007.42 so the next increment above this was $2,057.42. Otherwise the record bids would have only been in even numbers.
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
>
>
>
I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
Agreed and while you barely lost out in that case, you could just as easily win a lot in a similar fashion some other time.
Here is a recent example:
At 08:01:41 pm bidder 10 put in a bid and was high bidder at $360.00
At 08:01:43 pm, two seconds later, I put in a bid for over $500. Bidder’s 10 maximum secret bid of $406.90 came into play and my winning bid of $416.90 which was one bid increment over his maximum secret bid won the auction.
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
>
>
>
I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
If the winning bid didn’t have to be one bid increment above the previous high bidder’s secret maximum bid, then why was my high bid recorded at $2057.42 when the recorded high bidder before me was only $1,850?
The only answer is that his secret high bid was $2,007.42 so the next increment above this was $2,057.42. Otherwise the record bids would have only been in even numbers.
Correct. If you had bid a maximum of $2008 (and not the $2158), then the system would have entered the prior secret maximum of $2007.42 of bidder11 and then your maximum bid of $2008 would have been top bid. Even though your bid would not have been $50 more than the secret maximum, it did not have to be. Only would have had to be $50 more than the $1850 shown as the high bid at the time.
At 08:01:41 pm bidder 10 put in a bid and was high bidder at $360.00
At 08:01:43 pm, two seconds later, I put in a bid for over $500. Bidder’s 10 maximum secret bid of $406.90 came into play and my winning bid of $416.90 which was one bid increment over his maximum secret bid won the auction.
Yes, and if your max bid was only $410.00, you would have been the high bidder at $410.00 even though it was not one increment higher than bidder 10’s secret max bid. Your bid only had to be one increment higher than the last visible bid which was $360.00.
At 08:01:41 pm bidder 10 put in a bid and was high bidder at $360.00
At 08:01:43 pm, two seconds later, I put in a bid for over $500. Bidder’s 10 maximum secret bid of $406.90 came into play and my winning bid of $416.90 which was one bid increment over his maximum secret bid won the auction.
Yes, and if your max bid was only $410.00, you would have been the high bidder at $410.00 even though it was not one increment higher than bidder 10’s secret max bid. Your bid only had to be one increment higher than the last visible bid which was $360.00.
Joe.
In the situation you are citing, bidder 10 was the high bidder at $360. Before my bid would register, I had to surpass bidder 10 maximum secret bid of $409.60 with the next increment higher, if not my bid wouldn't register in the system. This is why his maximum bid is shown in the bid history just before my winning bid.
All I'm saying is this should have happened with the first example giving from 2019. Like I stated earlier, it gave me a sour taste at the time, but I've gotten over it.
Just for clarification, when I call customer service, they could not explain what happened and told me that someone above them would contact me. I did get a phone call from Ian, and he told me that he would find out what happened and get back to me. I never heard back. I do understand that one Indvidual auction is not life breaking, and Ian probably had more pressing issues to address.
@Davidcoins said:
When we send coins to GC, and they email is to confirm they arrived, approximately how long does it take before they’re in an auction? 🤔
My recent submission of 39 coins was received July 29 and approximately 5 weeks later 16 coins posted on sept 5 for a 30 day auction which ended October 2
one week later 15 coins posted on sept 12 for a 30 day auction that ended October 9.
Multiple people have tried to explain to you that the system worked as expected. You lost the auction because the winner bid more than you. It's as simple as that. If he bid 1 cent less than you, you would win the auction at only 1 cent more than his bid! Maybe re-read all the posts from people trying to explain to you why your interpretation of "minimum $10 more" is wrong.
It's like predicting your opponent's moves in chess.
Bidder 11 saw a bid of $1800. Bidder 11 tried to think several bids ahead and thought, it's $1850 me, $1900 you, 1950 me, 2000 you, 2050 me. $2100 you, $2150 me. Just for protection, bidder 11 put in a secret bid of an odd number - $2158.42. He won!
You played the same game. Looking at the last bid of $2007.42 but, didn't consider the cents in your secret bid of $2158.
At 08:01:41 pm bidder 10 put in a bid and was high bidder at $360.00
At 08:01:43 pm, two seconds later, I put in a bid for over $500. Bidder’s 10 maximum secret bid of $406.90 came into play and my winning bid of $416.90 which was one bid increment over his maximum secret bid won the auction.
Yes, and if your max bid was only $410.00, you would have been the high bidder at $410.00 even though it was not one increment higher than bidder 10’s secret max bid. Your bid only had to be one increment higher than the last visible bid which was $360.00.
Joe.
In the situation you are citing, bidder 10 was the high bidder at $360. Before my bid would register, I had to surpass bidder 10 maximum secret bid of $409.60 with the next increment higher, if not my bid wouldn't register in the system. This is why his maximum bid is shown in the bid history just before my winning bid.
All I'm saying is this should have happened with the first example giving from 2019. Like I stated earlier, it gave me a sour taste at the time, but I've gotten over it.
Just for clarification, when I call customer service, they could not explain what happened and told me that someone above them would contact me. I did get a phone call from Ian, and he told me that he would find out what happened and get back to me. I never heard back. I do understand that one Indvidual auction is not life breaking, and Ian probably had more pressing issues to address.
EDIT: for spelling
That's not correct. Your bid went a full increment because you had bid a full increment. Had you bid less than a full increment, you still would have been the high bidder.
I now just wish customer service or Ian had told me this back in 2019.
My own learning experience has been when I think I know something but several people tell me otherwise, I take a step back to find out what I might be missing.
Several different posters tried different ways to explain to you why the auction was correct. MetroD finally hit on something that made you understand. Is it possible that GC tried to explain it to you but because you were “sure” that the auction was not correct that you did not understand what they were trying to explain?
That was quite a battle I got involved in that evening to win that 1978-D Kennedy (pop 2/0 at the time) specimen at GC. But, the bigger question I have for JFK-Collector ——- did you pick up the pop 3/0 coin when it was later made? I hope you did.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
That was quite a battle I got involved in that evening to win that 1978-D Kennedy (pop 2/0 at the time) specimen at GC. But, the bigger question I have for JFK-Collector ——- did you pick up the pop 3/0 coin when it was later made? I hope you did.
Wondercoin.
Mitch,
I ended up with 26 coins from Richard Green's collection and he had a good eye. Richard established his collection and sold it long before PCGS started using the + grades, my son talked me into sending three coins in for regrade several years ago and they all received the + sign. I just haven't considered sending the rest in yet. Both the 78 and 78-D have Richard's pedigree on them, and I think they would have a good chance for the added +.
Right now, I'm still having fun with the variety side of the series and have been playing with the error side of the series. I still get the new issues each year just to keep the basic set up to date.
Comments
@MFeld
You are spot on with your last comment…
So curious where @MorganDude is…
A bit of humility would go along way here…
I would like to thank Ian for being so responsive and handling this issue for me.
I will also say I was unaware of the credit being issued until Ian informed me of that as there was no communication from GC to let me know they added a credit to my consignor account. That would’ve satisfied me at that point, rather than feeling ignored and letting it stew for 2 weeks with no communication.
Never a doubt in my mind. One of the few remaining customer service business left in the world...And yes, I am off to the post office with more coins to send for Great Collections this morning. Enough said.
WS
GC most certainly has my approval. Sold via many auction sites and have never had the level of service offered me by GC. Sorry you are having an issue, but hopefully it will be resolved.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I recently had a conversation with Ian on several of my coins on consignment.
The "hotlist" is their marketing tool to feature coins getting multiple bids. Several of my coins one with 25 bids two with a dozen did not make the "hotlist". I asked him why and the answer was "the algorithm".
Well then fix your algorithm.
Seriously? Commenting on shortcomings of coins, grading services, and auction companies without seeing evidence to give an informed opinion is what this forum does best. Oh, wait... you said "fairly." Never mind.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It's not just coins getting multiple bids - there's many different aspects to it as I thought I had mentioned on the phone on Sunday, and while these coins might have triggered one or two of the different aspects, it did not trigger enough to get them on the Hotlist. We have tweaked the criteria over the years and will in the future if we see something not correct, but at the moment, it's working as we designed it.
Regards,
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
OK you are entitled to run your business as you wish.
Your algorithm is proprietary, you don't have to reveal details.
If a consignor sends material to auction they expect full marketing capabilities.
I believe the valid point some here make is that he shouldn't have to reach out to Ian and I believe Ian would agree with this.
Of note is Ian's concern of public opinion is great enough for him to monitor these boards and personally react quickly to address or correct what could be viewed as a GC problem. The man continues to exemplify an exceptional business model.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I don’t know how the algorithm actually works, but my guess is that having a higher starting price limted the initial bidding activity in the first few days after the auction went live and that a pattern of multiple bids on a new auction is one of the main criteria to get a item added to the Hotlist.
Based on my experience with selling at GC, most of my coins that ended up on the Hotlist did so in a few days of being listed and had several bids. I was mainly selling Morgan dollars with a starting bid of $1. Since Morgan dollars have a wide following, people will generally place a low dollar bid on the lots that they are interested in, just to make it easier to follow. Most of the time the “real biding “ occurs during the last couple of days. A high percentage of my auctions were on the Hotlist.
Algorithm and coins... really?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Algorithm and auctions
Algorithm and auctions... really?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Did anybody check the spam folder? I've started to see more aggressive filtering from my hosting company... to the point were a lot of messages I expect are being spam filtered...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
If the coins were at PCGS for 5 months then 6 weeks at CAC it’s relevant to the amount of the the OP waited to post this thread.
Algorithm and auctions> @FranklinHalfAddict said:
They sold in April and August.
algorithms are at the heart of all digital processing, including electronic coin auctions. Your ebay states sales are computed, collected and forwarded using a unique algorithm that requires root rules that differ with each state.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If the criteria is a low starting bid I didn't set the bids GC did.
So that makes me even more disturbed about the event.
In any case not huge dollar amounts. So be it, lesson learned.
Your coins are getting plenty of eyeballs and bids - what is your complaint exactly?
On the submission form there is a check box that can be selected to start all of your listings at the $1 starting price. I would recommend that option for any coins like Morgan’s that have a lot of collectors that will look at your auctions.
Also some people filter to only look at auctions with existing bids. Those will be selling vs a auction that has a reserve. Your auction didn’t have a high starting bid, but it would cut down on people that will place a very small “tracking” bid on a auction that starts at $1. Or not look at it until closer to the ending date.
Also the Hotlist probably favors higher value coins being included vs lower priced coins.
On the first couple of auctions that I did I also had a higher starting price. I kind of learned on my future auctions to just start at $1 and people will bid, unless the coin has problems or does not have a large collector base.
Your coins having CAC stickers and two of them in old holders probably got more “eyeballs” than if they were on the Hotlist without a CAC sticker. So not being on the Hotlist probably had no effect on the final price.
Nice coins by the way!
Ian and the team at Great Collections are top notch.
Edited to add, I would never post anyones cell number on a public forum. It was poor attempt at a joke. Sorry.
Back to sorting wheat cents.
Please forgive the question, but is Ian OK with you posting his personal cell number?
Maybe he would prefer that customers with issues contact GC first.
Thanks, well I have not had anything to complain about until this situation.
Its the principle of maximizing exposure and I bristle at having to rely on an algorithm to expose coins that have dozens of active bidders.
Personally I think "algorithm and customer service" are an oxymoron. There is little hope of remediation from a computer source code.
Written by flawed humans. There I'm done, my apologies to Ian if lashing out on social media was inappropriate in this case. I'm biased.
Given the volume of coins and bids, GC and others need a way to automate the priority of each bid. If they didn’t use some kind of decision tree, aka algorithm, then how would it be done? Hundreds of customer service people with 3x5 cards? I get they need an algorithm, if they didn’t have this automated feature, how would you suggest they do it?
I flagged the @SethChandler post giving out someone's personal phone number on a public forum so it can be deleted. This defies common sense and is just wrong.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have bought several coins on Great Collection and only one time was I unhappy and Customer Service failed to address my concern, this was back in 2019. Great Collections state on their web page that bid increments between $1,000 to $2,499.99 are fifty dollars.
During the auction of April 14, 2019, there was a coin I was interest in, a 1978-D Kennedy half dollar graded by PCGS MS-67+. The top bid near the end of the auction was $1,850.00 placed according to the web site at 05:20:28 pm.
I placed a bid for $2,158.00 at 06:02:48 pm and took high bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous bidder maximum bid of $2,057.42.
24 seconds after my high bid, the previous high bidder placed another bid at 06:03:12 pm and won for $2,158.42, only $0.42 higher than my maximum bid.
If the minimum bid at that value was fifty dollars, I didn’t and still don’t understand how $0.42 is equal to $50.
Long story short, after failing to get a satisfactory response from Great Collection, it did leave a sour taste but after getting over it I’ve never had another problem.
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/616153/1978-D-Kennedy-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-67
When we send coins to GC, and they email is to confirm they arrived, approximately how long does it take before they’re in an auction? 🤔
If it works like eBay, the bid increment is $50 over the current bid, not over the max hidden bid. In your case, the high bid showing would be $2107.42 (you) but your actual high bid is $2158. The minimum allowable next bid would be $2157.42. Had the other bidder bid that amount, your absolute high bid of $2158 would have become the new high bid. But if the other bidder bid any amount over your $2158 (which was more than the $50 increment) they would become the high bidder. The only question is what they bid. If they bid over $2208, the displayed high bid would be $2208, since that’s one increment above your max. If they bid anything less than $2208, their max bid shows because it was higher than your bid (so they’re willing to pay more) but GC will take as much of an increase as they can up to the stated increment.
Bid increment of $50 means that the bid must be at least $50 over the previous high, not necessarily over anyone's secret bid by that much. The previous high was $2,057.42. So he had to bid at least $2,107.42. In this scenario, he chose to bid $2,158.42 (which meets the $50 minimum) and is higher than your secret bid, so he wins.
If on the other hand, he bid $2,150, he would lose to your $2,158 secret bid by only $8.
So the bidding was correct. Whoever bids more wins. Does that make sense?
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>
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I guess I still don’t understand. Looking at the bid chart:
At 05:20:28 pm bidder 11 was top bidder at $1,850.00 with a maximum bid of $2,007.42
At 06:02:48 pm I took over as top bidder for fifty dollars more than the previous person’s maximum bid.
My question was simple, 24 seconds after my bid was placed, why didn’t bidder 11 have to bid at least the minimum bid above my maximum bid like I had too?
Bidder 11 had to bid $50 higher than the 2057.42. Once he made his bid, he became the high bidder because it was higher than your secret max bid.
Joe.
If he bid $2500, he would win it at $2,208 ($50 more than you). But all he needed to bid was higher than your secret bid to win it. He wouldn't have to bid $50 over your secret bid to win because he wouldn't know what your secret bid is!
Follow me on MyCollect!
It's been explained a few times. Bidder 11 has to place a bid one increment above the VISIBLE high bid. It happens that instead of placing the minimum allowable bid, be placed a higher bid, and it was greater than your maximum secret bid. Even though it wasn't a full increment above, that doesn't matter. He became the high bidder when two things happened:
1- His bid was at least one increment above the visible high bid
2- His bid was higher than your absolute maximum high bid
This shouldn't leave a sour taste in your mouth--this is how auctions work. This might not always be doable (if you're bidding on the floor at Heritage, you can't bid an oddball amount--they'll just have you bid one increment at a time, or a one-time cut bid of half an increment), but I'm pretty sure all the online bidding systems where you can punch in any number you want will work this way. eBay certainly does.
Agreed and while you barely lost out in that case, you could just as easily win a lot in a similar fashion some other time.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the winning bid didn’t have to be one bid increment above the previous high bidder’s secret maximum bid, then why was my high bid recorded at $2057.42 when the recorded high bidder before me was only $1,850?
The only answer is that his secret high bid was $2,007.42 so the next increment above this was $2,057.42. Otherwise the record bids would have only been in even numbers.
Here is a recent example:
At 08:01:41 pm bidder 10 put in a bid and was high bidder at $360.00
At 08:01:43 pm, two seconds later, I put in a bid for over $500. Bidder’s 10 maximum secret bid of $406.90 came into play and my winning bid of $416.90 which was one bid increment over his maximum secret bid won the auction.
Correct. If you had bid a maximum of $2008 (and not the $2158), then the system would have entered the prior secret maximum of $2007.42 of bidder11 and then your maximum bid of $2008 would have been top bid. Even though your bid would not have been $50 more than the secret maximum, it did not have to be. Only would have had to be $50 more than the $1850 shown as the high bid at the time.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
@JFK_Collector said:
Yes, and if your max bid was only $410.00, you would have been the high bidder at $410.00 even though it was not one increment higher than bidder 10’s secret max bid. Your bid only had to be one increment higher than the last visible bid which was $360.00.
Joe.
In the situation you are citing, bidder 10 was the high bidder at $360. Before my bid would register, I had to surpass bidder 10 maximum secret bid of $409.60 with the next increment higher, if not my bid wouldn't register in the system. This is why his maximum bid is shown in the bid history just before my winning bid.
All I'm saying is this should have happened with the first example giving from 2019. Like I stated earlier, it gave me a sour taste at the time, but I've gotten over it.
Just for clarification, when I call customer service, they could not explain what happened and told me that someone above them would contact me. I did get a phone call from Ian, and he told me that he would find out what happened and get back to me. I never heard back. I do understand that one Indvidual auction is not life breaking, and Ian probably had more pressing issues to address.
EDIT: for spelling
My recent submission of 39 coins was received July 29 and approximately 5 weeks later 16 coins posted on sept 5 for a 30 day auction which ended October 2
one week later 15 coins posted on sept 12 for a 30 day auction that ended October 9.
7 coins are still at cac
1 coin was returned to PCGS to be Re holdered.
Multiple people have tried to explain to you that the system worked as expected. You lost the auction because the winner bid more than you. It's as simple as that. If he bid 1 cent less than you, you would win the auction at only 1 cent more than his bid! Maybe re-read all the posts from people trying to explain to you why your interpretation of "minimum $10 more" is wrong.
Follow me on MyCollect!
It's like predicting your opponent's moves in chess.
Bidder 11 saw a bid of $1800. Bidder 11 tried to think several bids ahead and thought, it's $1850 me, $1900 you, 1950 me, 2000 you, 2050 me. $2100 you, $2150 me. Just for protection, bidder 11 put in a secret bid of an odd number - $2158.42. He won!
You played the same game. Looking at the last bid of $2007.42 but, didn't consider the cents in your secret bid of $2158.
The fish that got away!
The bid chart looked like this:
when you bid $2,158.00 at 06:02:48 pm. Then, it looked like this:
The next bid needed to be $2,107.42 and Bidder 11 bid $2,158.42 at 6:03:12pm, making him the high bidder.
In order to outbid him, your bid would have needed to be $2,208.42.
That's not correct. Your bid went a full increment because you had bid a full increment. Had you bid less than a full increment, you still would have been the high bidder.
Source: https://www.greatcollections.com/kb/How-was-I-outbid-by-less-than-a-full-increment-t73-4.html
Thank you.
I now just wish customer service or Ian had told me this back in 2019.
My own learning experience has been when I think I know something but several people tell me otherwise, I take a step back to find out what I might be missing.
Several different posters tried different ways to explain to you why the auction was correct. MetroD finally hit on something that made you understand. Is it possible that GC tried to explain it to you but because you were “sure” that the auction was not correct that you did not understand what they were trying to explain?
Joe.
I hope the sour taste was finally removed after 3 years.
Cheers
Follow me on MyCollect!
That was quite a battle I got involved in that evening to win that 1978-D Kennedy (pop 2/0 at the time) specimen at GC. But, the bigger question I have for JFK-Collector ——- did you pick up the pop 3/0 coin when it was later made? I hope you did.
Wondercoin.
Mitch,
I ended up with 26 coins from Richard Green's collection and he had a good eye. Richard established his collection and sold it long before PCGS started using the + grades, my son talked me into sending three coins in for regrade several years ago and they all received the + sign. I just haven't considered sending the rest in yet. Both the 78 and 78-D have Richard's pedigree on them, and I think they would have a good chance for the added +.
Right now, I'm still having fun with the variety side of the series and have been playing with the error side of the series. I still get the new issues each year just to keep the basic set up to date.