Any Chance This 1798 Bust Dollar Is Authentic?
ColonelKlinck
Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
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ColonelKlinck
Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
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At first, it looks like it could be a genuine coin with extensive environmental damage.
But the face (especially the lips) don't look right.
Like Mr Carr said, kinda looks good, but off at the same time. I personally would avoid it.
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Doesn't look genuine to me. Personally, I'd hold out for a certified example...
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Zero chance of being real.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
definitely no expert here but,
The wear on the coin seems inconsistent.
on the revere wouldn't 'PLU' wear off before 'IBUS' in EPLURIBUS?
OPs coin:
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PCGS Photograde coin:
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The only chance that is real is if it is the "Grumpy Liberty" variety...
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
First I will tag @burfle23
Next I do not know these so this is all just what I have found.
It does not have any of the markers from this post.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1078224/thoughts-on-an-1802-bust-dollar
If it is not real then I think I found one that they could have faked it from as has similar die cracks on obverse down by the date. Also it has some very similar flow lines coming off of the stars and letters.
The reverse on the OP has more die cracks than this one but the small die crack (what it looks like) below the beak is similar.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38058954
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I don't like the surfaces, but the coin looks correct as far as wear, strike characteristics, and design for that variety. It could be a transfer fake or just corroded, would have to see it in hand. Just going by the pictures I would lean towards genuine (but wouldn't take a chance on it).
Most counterfeits are struck using dies created by casting them using a real specimen. Any die cracks or even contact marks are transferred to the fake die and will show up on any fake coins struck from that die.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
thanks for saving me the legwork!
i wanted to see if there was a guaranteed authentic one with those VEEEEERRRRRRYYYY unusual obv die breaks.
edited to add, some of the threads about rim dings and straight grades would LOVE to have this example posted there!
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i could be mistaken but i think i just may go authentic with the OP coin. when compared side-by-side with the example lilolme posted, they sure seem awfully close which is WAY above average for transfer dies or whatever.
there is an anomaly (perhaps more than one) on the OP coin where the die break coming off to the right, seems to go off into the field in front of the neck in a sort of triangular pattern, which i don't see on the PCGS example.
something to be done is to look at the PCGS example for PMD contact stuff and see if it has been transferred to the OP example. perhaps find some other examples of the marriage as well to see if those coins may have matching transferred damage diagnostics.
It's a match for B-28/BB-118. Doesn't make it real, of course, but the obverse and reverse do go together. The mouth looks funny, but I'm not picking up on any other such sloppiness on the coin. The denticles are what cause me the most concern, especially by RTY of LIBERTY. The overall appearance isn't all that nice, and if it's real, the surfaces are making it look fake.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
It almost looks acid treated, which if it was struck from a transfer die could have been used to hide the characteristic soft contact marks that come from that method.
I will vote fake.... Liberty looks very different.... face more slender, lips different... Cheers, RickO
It just looks off. I vote fake
Here are the two (OP and PCGS) side by side.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
The OP's coin looks like Miss Liberty lost about 35 lbs.
Reverse dentil to letter distance is different on the fake. Compare this distance at the top of UNITED.
That "sandy" surface look makes me think fake. Miss Liberty's lips look like a botched botox job too.
10-4,
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Like all those lead Continental dollars out there....
So looking throughs HA I found this one that has the die cracks on the reverse at 7 o/c or so that matches up better with the die state of the OP. However the obverse die crack is not as full. Also has that slight off center strike from 4 o/c to 10 o/c or about (both sides).
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1798-1-large-eagle-pointed-9-close-date-b-28-bb-118-r3-xf40-anacs-pcgs-40035-/a/1298-4022.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Here is a previous sale of the above Anacs coin and it does have the obverse die crack but just was not visible in the previous photo.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1798-1-large-eagle-pointed-9-close-date-b-28-bb-118-r3-xf40-anacs-pcgs-40035-/a/1293-3906.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
On the other hand, compare the size and spacing of denticles above ATES. It's a match.
The denticles that bother me the most are those above RTY in LIBERTY. The questionable coin looks like it suffered a rim bump and had them re-engraved.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
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that is good to point out.
i do recall that in the bust dollar error thread. the cut down large cent or whatever, also, there was some dentil to legend variance that someone commented could be created from working on the dies or something.
that goes beyond my knowledge and comfort zone but i can and do see it clear as day.
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the thing i call a die crack above the boobs, could be a clash but it is nice to see it on more than 1 coin.
i'm not up for it JUST quite yet but there may be something to the die state emission sequence between all the coins posted.
does the OP coin fit right in or is it an incestuous mongoloid of mis-matched dies states or an effect of the transfer loss of detail process?
probably all we can do is speculate but it is fun to play in the sandbox with you all.
I believe the photo and coin color also makes the distance between United and dentils appear larger than it is. Here is the area enlarged. At 4 o/c one can see the darker part of the dentils extending into the coin. It is similar at United but a little harder to see.
So a question - If the OP coin was made from an existing one (as appears it was or is not fake), then would the counterfeiters do this for just one coin or should we expect to see more of them show up?
They are kind of unique with these die cracks and would be more easily identifiable.
And the Liberty area that was questioned as potential repaired.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
No chance, among other things look at the facial features.
I don't disagree but was asking above:
So a question - If the OP coin was made from an existing one (as appears it was or is not fake), then would the counterfeiters do this for just one coin or should we expect to see more of them show up?
They are kind of unique with these die cracks and would be more easily identifiable.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Looks like Liberty is smelling something bad, you know like it's a fake coin. 😒
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fwiw, the nose and area behind the nose on the authentic exmples is also kinda jacked-up.
When I compared the distance UNITED to dentils, I did see the shadows in the photograph, and thought there could have been some late state lapping that removed some of the lower relief part of the dentils on the die. However, the later die state B-28 that @lilolme posted shows differences with ANACS coin and the fake, even though the ANACS coin is slightly off-center. It looks like an incomplete transfer of the host coin to the fake. As many have stated, the mouth was also touched up.
If the first picture weren't oversharpened and looked like this, would we be saying it's a really good fake?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The ANACS coin looks like it was lightly polished, which would explain the softening of the die cracks and other details.
The coin in the OP looks OK to me, but I'd like to see higher resolution pics to be a little more sure about it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think it's real, just repaired and possibly altered/tooled, would want to see it in hand to say for sure.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
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A new "duck lips" variety!
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Here are high resolution pics of a PCGS authenticated B-28. Note Miss Liberty's mouth, for starters.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Now that I come late to the party and just about all the sleuthing and photos have been either searched and found and compared, imho it's a genuine example that exhibits very similar die breaks in different stages of die state with environmental damage.
What does the edge look like? The third side is often missed by counterfeiters.
you know, the OP coin APPEARS to exhibit die bounce/ejection doubling or whatever, so that MAY account for some of the variances we are seeing as well.
i'm not trying to sell anyone it is absolutely authentic but imo, if it is a counterfeit, it is a good one, despite it's look.
just so i understand, you are saying that the lips are close to what they usually look like on bust dollars or a bit puckery?
the machine doubling or whatever, is really apparent on this example, especially the chin area.
I think that the pronounced lips and open mouth are the way this particular obverse die was cut.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here is the OP coin with the dark coloring lightened. Gives a more even look at the mouth detail without the heavy dark to light influences.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
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i skimmed the thread again and didn't see any commentary about the origins of this coin.
do we get more info?
Found one from a 2006 HA auction with a similar looking mouth...
Here is the reverse (similar die crack state) and link of the one noted above by burfle23
https://coins.ha.com/itm/early-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1798-1-close-date-b-28-bb-118-r3-improperly-cleaned-ncs-vf-details-digit-8-out-of-position-high-and-leaning-slig/a/390-23544.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
https://elive-auction.de/lose/127214?auktion_id=103&category=33175&order=losnummer.asc&seite=index
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