Here's a GC 1796 Large Cent About to Auction in 2 hours w/No Bidders thus far at 160K

Catbert

Kind of interesting to me that this level of coin is being sold via GC and, as per their standard, no description. I know they've sold some big boys, but is this the right venue for such a coin? What do you think? Wow, gorgeous!

https://greatcollections.com/Coin/1192765/1796-Liberty-Cap-Cent-PCGS-MS-65-BN

jmlanzaf

I think we should discuss it after it closes

Catbert

Your opinion is noted.

jmlanzaf

@Catbert said:
Your opinion is noted.

You asked for it. I have a lot more once the auction ends.

Catbert

Of course, I know I'll receive a lot more since that is your nature. I think mostly good, in my view.

Edit. Beyond the substance of my post's question, I'm not concerned about the timing of my post as you are. Hopefully, you can set aside this difference when you respond with your thoughts.

Catbert

Meanwhile, I'm going out to have a fine Thai dinner soon and a martini or two with my wife!

coinkat

A vodka martini? Consider Belvedere Vodka... a terrific Polish Vodka. If gin... well... you're on your own.

Zoins

28 trackers and 235 page views so far.

Zoins

Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

lermish

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

lermish

@Catbert said:
Kind of interesting to me that this level of coin is being sold via GC and, as per their standard, no description. I know they've sold some big boys, but is this the right venue for such a coin? What do you think? Wow, gorgeous!

This type of coin is way beyond my purview but I think if I wanted to just put something out there for sale at almost a "buy it now" price that seems reasonable as a good place to get a lot of eyeballs on it. You can always consign it with a dealer or send it into one of the bigger houses at any point in the future. This seems like a quick and easy way to test the market.

Zoins

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Well, the PCGS Price Guide Price is $230k, so at least that's not debatable.

It will be interesting to see how this coin tracks to the Price Guide.

Zoins

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Where did it sell for $176k?

It sold for $205k a decade ago on Stack's and has a nice pedigree.

Pedigree:

1. Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage
2. William H. Sheldon
3. R. E. Naftzger.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-30A46/1796-liberty-cap-cent-s-84-rarity-3-ms-65-bn-pcgs-secure-holder

Stack's Bowers said:
LOT DESCRIPTION
Enticing Gem MS-65 1796 S-84 Liberty Cap Cent

Glorious Surfaces, Luster and Eye Appeal

1796 Liberty Cap Cent. S-84. Rarity-3. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Secure Holder.
This is the plate coin from the 1991 Edition of United States Large Cents 1793 - 1814 by William C. Noyes which also has two of the most respected names in its pedigree, Sheldon and Naftzger. No doubt other famous collectors have owned this prized Gem over the years as well. Satiny mint luster throughout, and the toning is perfectly even and light chocolate tan. Reasonably well struck on Liberty's curls but a trifle blunt on the central reverse. Liberty Cap large cents are exceedingly rare in any Mint State grade, in Gem as seen here, they are historic offerings that only the finest collections boast. Incredible surface quality where the only traces of anything not satin smooth are tiny imperfections that were in the planchet before it was struck. Without question one of the most stunning 1796 cents any collector will ever view let alone have an opportunity to purchase. A simply splendid coin for the connoisseur.

Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
When gathering 1796 coins, the Werner family certainly captured a number of truly memorable pieces, of which this is one. A very strong bid is encouraged and is certainly merited.

PCGS# 1392.
Provenance: From the Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage; William H. Sheldon; R. E. Naftzger.
PCGS Population: 2; 2 finer (MS-66 Brown finest) within the Brown designation.

pcgscacgold

There are a lot of gold coins up for auction this week that have no bids and high reserves (in some cases 10 in a row).

Maybe a market top? GC used to be more about low reserve and let them sell. Now the sellers are putting in very high reserves.

logger7

There's no advantage for poker players to show others their cards. Same thing with last second snipers, no point in putting in a bid earlier.

pcgscacgold

Looks like no bids. I think there will be a lot of that tonight.

1madman

Does pcgs now step in and lower the value in the price guide?

lermish

@Zoins said:
Where did it sell for $176k?

It did NOT sell for$176k tonight ($160k + 10% BP) on GC. There were no bids.

So, either the price guide is very optimistic or the market has softened considerably or there are not a lot of potential buyers for the coin and they either didn't see this listing or didn't want to buy for whatever reason.

Catbert

A no sale on GC doesn’t help its “freshness” factor.

lermish

@1madman said:
Does pcgs now step in and lower the value in the price guide?

I think they should but as was hashed out at length last week, GC does not auto-share auction results with PCGS. I'm not sure if they might go in manually and update after this but my suspicion is they don't want to go in and fool with the guide after every auction for every very high end coin.

LanceNewmanOCC

liberty cap, ms65. shoo-wee

i wonder if what looks like serious rub/grime from the forehead down to the truncation is having a negative effect on this lovely lady?

otherwise a very lustrous coin.

link

added pop report LINK

finding comps is VERY difficult w/o checking half a dozen sources or more.

HA turned up nothing recent enough to matter, APR is the same, highest grade is XF for greatcollections, i need more work on goldbergs archives as i couldn't find anything there and that really shocked me. (these comments are for comps)

gj to @Zoins finding the SB sale. - great research and presentation, as usual.

jmlanzaf

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

Could you show me the comp of an actual sale at that price?

Zoins

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

Could you show me the comp of an actual sale at that price?

That's the PCGS Price Guide price as mentioned.

As to how PCGS arrived at that price, the question might need to be directed to our hosts.

jmlanzaf

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

Could you show me the comp of an actual sale at that price?

That's the PCGS Price Guide price as mentioned.

As to how PCGS arrived at that price, the question might need to be directed to our hosts.

I don't see any recent sales of a 65 BN anywhere near that price. The reason I didn't want to comment earlier is that I don't think the problem is the GC site but the starting bid.

jmlanzaf

@Zoins said:

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Where did it sell for $176k?

It sold for $205k a decade ago on Stack's and has a nice pedigree.

Pedigree:

1. Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage
2. William H. Sheldon
3. R. E. Naftzger.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-30A46/1796-liberty-cap-cent-s-84-rarity-3-ms-65-bn-pcgs-secure-holder

Stack's Bowers said:
LOT DESCRIPTION
Enticing Gem MS-65 1796 S-84 Liberty Cap Cent

Glorious Surfaces, Luster and Eye Appeal

1796 Liberty Cap Cent. S-84. Rarity-3. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Secure Holder.
This is the plate coin from the 1991 Edition of United States Large Cents 1793 - 1814 by William C. Noyes which also has two of the most respected names in its pedigree, Sheldon and Naftzger. No doubt other famous collectors have owned this prized Gem over the years as well. Satiny mint luster throughout, and the toning is perfectly even and light chocolate tan. Reasonably well struck on Liberty's curls but a trifle blunt on the central reverse. Liberty Cap large cents are exceedingly rare in any Mint State grade, in Gem as seen here, they are historic offerings that only the finest collections boast. Incredible surface quality where the only traces of anything not satin smooth are tiny imperfections that were in the planchet before it was struck. Without question one of the most stunning 1796 cents any collector will ever view let alone have an opportunity to purchase. A simply splendid coin for the connoisseur.

Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
When gathering 1796 coins, the Werner family certainly captured a number of truly memorable pieces, of which this is one. A very strong bid is encouraged and is certainly merited.

PCGS# 1392.
Provenance: From the Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage; William H. Sheldon; R. E. Naftzger.
PCGS Population: 2; 2 finer (MS-66 Brown finest) within the Brown designation.

Is that the same coin? How do you know?

jmlanzaf

Could one of the large cent experts verify the Sheldon number?

Zoins

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Where did it sell for $176k?

It sold for $205k a decade ago on Stack's and has a nice pedigree.

Pedigree:

1. Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage
2. William H. Sheldon
3. R. E. Naftzger.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-30A46/1796-liberty-cap-cent-s-84-rarity-3-ms-65-bn-pcgs-secure-holder

Stack's Bowers said:
LOT DESCRIPTION
Enticing Gem MS-65 1796 S-84 Liberty Cap Cent

Glorious Surfaces, Luster and Eye Appeal

1796 Liberty Cap Cent. S-84. Rarity-3. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Secure Holder.
This is the plate coin from the 1991 Edition of United States Large Cents 1793 - 1814 by William C. Noyes which also has two of the most respected names in its pedigree, Sheldon and Naftzger. No doubt other famous collectors have owned this prized Gem over the years as well. Satiny mint luster throughout, and the toning is perfectly even and light chocolate tan. Reasonably well struck on Liberty's curls but a trifle blunt on the central reverse. Liberty Cap large cents are exceedingly rare in any Mint State grade, in Gem as seen here, they are historic offerings that only the finest collections boast. Incredible surface quality where the only traces of anything not satin smooth are tiny imperfections that were in the planchet before it was struck. Without question one of the most stunning 1796 cents any collector will ever view let alone have an opportunity to purchase. A simply splendid coin for the connoisseur.

Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
When gathering 1796 coins, the Werner family certainly captured a number of truly memorable pieces, of which this is one. A very strong bid is encouraged and is certainly merited.

PCGS# 1392.
Provenance: From the Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage; William H. Sheldon; R. E. Naftzger.
PCGS Population: 2; 2 finer (MS-66 Brown finest) within the Brown designation.

Is that the same coin? How do you know?

I compared the photos.

gumby1234

Very nice example. WAAAAYY out of my price range. I know there are lots of people with the kind of budget that can buy it around here thou. Sometimes a coin is just in the right auction at the wrong time and vice versa. I don't think it was because it was on GC that it didn't sell. Not even sure the starting bid of $160K on a coin like that would hurt its sale potential. Its something I will never own unless I hit the lottery jackpot.

Walkerguy21D

@jmlanzaf said:
Could one of the large cent experts verify the Sheldon number?

The original coin posted is an S-84.
Ironically, it’s only listed as #3 in the condition census, as an MS61, via EAC standards.

jmlanzaf

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Where did it sell for $176k?

It sold for $205k a decade ago on Stack's and has a nice pedigree.

Pedigree:

1. Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage
2. William H. Sheldon
3. R. E. Naftzger.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-30A46/1796-liberty-cap-cent-s-84-rarity-3-ms-65-bn-pcgs-secure-holder

Stack's Bowers said:
LOT DESCRIPTION
Enticing Gem MS-65 1796 S-84 Liberty Cap Cent

Glorious Surfaces, Luster and Eye Appeal

1796 Liberty Cap Cent. S-84. Rarity-3. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Secure Holder.
This is the plate coin from the 1991 Edition of United States Large Cents 1793 - 1814 by William C. Noyes which also has two of the most respected names in its pedigree, Sheldon and Naftzger. No doubt other famous collectors have owned this prized Gem over the years as well. Satiny mint luster throughout, and the toning is perfectly even and light chocolate tan. Reasonably well struck on Liberty's curls but a trifle blunt on the central reverse. Liberty Cap large cents are exceedingly rare in any Mint State grade, in Gem as seen here, they are historic offerings that only the finest collections boast. Incredible surface quality where the only traces of anything not satin smooth are tiny imperfections that were in the planchet before it was struck. Without question one of the most stunning 1796 cents any collector will ever view let alone have an opportunity to purchase. A simply splendid coin for the connoisseur.

Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
When gathering 1796 coins, the Werner family certainly captured a number of truly memorable pieces, of which this is one. A very strong bid is encouraged and is certainly merited.

PCGS# 1392.
Provenance: From the Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage; William H. Sheldon; R. E. Naftzger.
PCGS Population: 2; 2 finer (MS-66 Brown finest) within the Brown designation.

Is that the same coin? How do you know?

I compared the photos.

It doesn't look the same to me. It may be. That black spot would suggest it is. Look how weak the "CENT" is on the GC coin. If it is, the GC pictures are just awful.

jmlanzaf

@Walkerguy21D said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Could one of the large cent experts verify the Sheldon number?

The original coin posted is an S-84.
Ironically, it’s only listed as #3 in the condition census, as an MS61, via EAC standards.

Thank you.

Walkerguy21D

@jmlanzaf said:

Is that the same coin? How do you know?

I compared the photos.

It doesn't look the same to me. It may be. That black spot would suggest it is. Look how weak the "CENT" is on the GC coin. If it is, the GC pictures are just awful.

I think it’s the same coin.
GC’s photos do a good job of hiding the marks, or at least making them appear shallower. But they’re still there and match up between both coins.

Zoins

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Wow, this is a $230k coin!

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39302829

Debatable because it didn't just sell for 176k but nonetheless a scarce and a really nice example of a very difficult coin.

Where did it sell for $176k?

It sold for $205k a decade ago on Stack's and has a nice pedigree.

Pedigree:

1. Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage
2. William H. Sheldon
3. R. E. Naftzger.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-30A46/1796-liberty-cap-cent-s-84-rarity-3-ms-65-bn-pcgs-secure-holder

Stack's Bowers said:
LOT DESCRIPTION
Enticing Gem MS-65 1796 S-84 Liberty Cap Cent

Glorious Surfaces, Luster and Eye Appeal

1796 Liberty Cap Cent. S-84. Rarity-3. MS-65 BN (PCGS). Secure Holder.
This is the plate coin from the 1991 Edition of United States Large Cents 1793 - 1814 by William C. Noyes which also has two of the most respected names in its pedigree, Sheldon and Naftzger. No doubt other famous collectors have owned this prized Gem over the years as well. Satiny mint luster throughout, and the toning is perfectly even and light chocolate tan. Reasonably well struck on Liberty's curls but a trifle blunt on the central reverse. Liberty Cap large cents are exceedingly rare in any Mint State grade, in Gem as seen here, they are historic offerings that only the finest collections boast. Incredible surface quality where the only traces of anything not satin smooth are tiny imperfections that were in the planchet before it was struck. Without question one of the most stunning 1796 cents any collector will ever view let alone have an opportunity to purchase. A simply splendid coin for the connoisseur.

Numismatic Reflections by Q. David Bowers
When gathering 1796 coins, the Werner family certainly captured a number of truly memorable pieces, of which this is one. A very strong bid is encouraged and is certainly merited.

PCGS# 1392.
Provenance: From the Werner Family Collection of 1796 Coinage; William H. Sheldon; R. E. Naftzger.
PCGS Population: 2; 2 finer (MS-66 Brown finest) within the Brown designation.

Is that the same coin? How do you know?

I compared the photos.

It doesn't look the same to me. It may be. That black spot would suggest it is. Look how weak the "CENT" is on the GC coin. If it is, the GC pictures are just awful.

I compared the Stack’s photos to the TrueView which made it easier.

The marks on Lady Liberty match, including cheek and collar.

rays

The current coin on GC is the same as that auctioned by Stacks in 2012 for $201K. In my opinion, the current PCGS price guide value of $230K is speculative, as the pop in that grade is 2 and none other than the current coin have sold in that grade (65BN) since 2012.

If this coin were to be consigned to another auction firm, and at no reserve, what would it bring? That is an almost impossible question to answer as it depends on who is looking for such a coin at the precise instant it is being sold. I would not be surprised to see anywhere from $125K-$250K.

Catbert

It certainly didn't help to see it pass (for the owner) at 160K during a hot market. I still believe with better marketing using a different venue (like a premium night), that a better result could have been obtained.

rays

@Catbert said:
It certainly didn't help to see it pass (for the owner) at 160K during a hot market. I still believe with better marketing using a different venue (like a premium night), that a better result could have been obtained.

I agree. However, your belief is predicated upon the fact that a willing buyer at over $160K is unaware of the opportunity to purchase this coin from the current venue. I think this unlikely, but possible. It is also possible that a higher result could be achieved with a live auction venue (and better marketing) due to “auction fever”.

fathom

I don't think copper has been as hot as the other silver/gold rarities in this market

I agree I think it was a test the market listing. I also think we are potentially at a market top if liquidity tightens and there is nowhere to hide because of inflation.

It's a great coin though.

skier07

Maybe I’m old school but if I was selling a six figure coin I would consign it with an auction house that has lot viewing associated with a major show.

daltex

@Catbert said:
A no sale on GC doesn’t help its “freshness” factor.

So I have a question: if I were to have a relatively unique coin like this and I wanted to sell it, but I wanted to be sure I didn't get ripped off, so I did this, and then it didn't sell, would I be completely unable to sell it at a (really) fair price for a few years? Like if there were buyers at $150k all in, would this result cause me to only be able to get $120k?

Walkerlover

@lermish said:

@Zoins said:
Where did it sell for $176k?

It did NOT sell for$176k tonight ($160k + 10% BP) on GC. There were no bids.

So, either the price guide is very optimistic or the market has softened considerably or there are not a lot of potential buyers for the coin and they either didn't see this listing or didn't want to buy for whatever reason.

perhaps if it was sold no reserve it would have sold for this price or more. There seems to be psychologically strong resistance to reserves, even sometimes even if the reserve is reasonable and fair. No reserve brings out crazy competitive bids, at times.

lilolme

For what it is worth, and that might not be much, here is the pcgs price guide history. After the SB sale in 2012 the guide jumped up to 200K.

Catbert

@daltex said:

@Catbert said:
A no sale on GC doesn’t help its “freshness” factor.

So I have a question: if I were to have a relatively unique coin like this and I wanted to sell it, but I wanted to be sure I didn't get ripped off, so I did this, and then it didn't sell, would I be completely unable to sell it at a (really) fair price for a few years? Like if there were buyers at $150k all in, would this result cause me to only be able to get $120k?

It’s seems to me the consignor’s strategy backfired and at least in near term horizon, placed a value cap for all to see. Of course, this isn’t new to have a lot in any auction to receive a pass. I love GC, but this lot deserved better.

I welcome a gift donation to me in penance. 😬

Zoins

@Catbert said:

@daltex said:

@Catbert said:
A no sale on GC doesn’t help its “freshness” factor.

So I have a question: if I were to have a relatively unique coin like this and I wanted to sell it, but I wanted to be sure I didn't get ripped off, so I did this, and then it didn't sell, would I be completely unable to sell it at a (really) fair price for a few years? Like if there were buyers at $150k all in, would this result cause me to only be able to get $120k?

It’s seems to me the consignor’s strategy backfired and at least in near term horizon, placed a value cap for all to see. Of course, this isn’t new to have a lot in any auction to receive a pass. I love GC, but this lot deserved better.

I welcome a gift donation to me in penance. 😬

GC didn't add a description for this coin, which is typical, but they do for some coins like this one:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1090361/Mint-Error-1886-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Obverse-Die-Cap-PCGS-MS-64-Ex-Amon-Carter

And GC even wrote up an article on this coin here:

https://www.greatcollections.com/kb/Spectacular-1886-Morgan-Dollar-Die-Cap-Error-to-be-Auctioned-by-GreatCollections-t439-4.html

How does GC decide when to provide a description?

ricko

That coin is certainly a beautiful specimen and would be a credit to anyone's collection. I am surprised it closed without a bid. I am sure we will see this one again - and soon. Cheers, RickO

LanceNewmanOCC

@Zoins said:
GC didn't add a description for this coin, which is typical:

.
something they need to change.

skier07

Having a reserve, mediocre pictures (two only) at best, no description, minimal lot viewing, no auction catalog, and minimal marketing at best didn’t help the seller.

I can get all of the above selling my coin with a traditional auction house associated with a major show for roughly for the same price after negotiating a fee.

BillJones

I can tell you, from bitter experience, that the price of early U.S. coins has come down quite a bit since 2012. I have several pieces, on a lower level than this MS-64 piece, in which I am "buried" with respect to price. They include a 1795 large cent in MS-62, a 1795 half dollar in EF-45, a 1795 $10 gold in AU-53 and an 1808 quarter eagle in AU-50.

As for the OP coin, this is the type of piece you need to examine in person. Some of the marks you see may have been on the planchet when the coin was struck and were not smoothed by the dies. The coins looks very choice from the photos, but at 6 figures, I would become fussy.

As for the price, after the prices fell, a well known dealer had a beautiful AU 1793 Cap Cent for about the same money. As a collector I would rather have that than the 1796 Liberty Cap cent.

logger7

That's the type of coin that would do well in an HA or other premium auction venue such as Legend and Stacks Bowers, but the consignor would not be able to have a reserve.

jmlanzaf

@BillJones said:
I can tell you, from bitter experience, that the price of early U.S. coins has come down quite a bit since 2012. I have several pieces, on a lower level than this MS-64 piece, in which I am "buried" with respect to price. They include a 1795 large cent in MS-62, a 1795 half dollar in EF-45, a 1795 $10 gold in AU-53 and an 1808 quarter eagle in AU-50.

As for the OP coin, this is the type of piece you need to examine in person. Some of the marks you see may have been on the planchet when the coin was struck and were not smoothed by the dies. The coins looks very choice from the photos, but at 6 figures, I would become fussy.

As for the price, after the prices fell, a well known dealer had a beautiful AU 1793 Cap Cent for about the same money. As a collector I would rather have that than the 1796 Liberty Cap cent.

I agree. I just think that, at best, $180k is all the money for that coin.

That coin would probably best be served by a private transaction and not an auction.