SLQ - Cleaned or die polish?

spyglassdesign

I got her back. Let me know what you think? Cleaned or die polish? It seems to change direction when I move the light sometimes, and its pronounced to her right but ever so faint on her left. It also doesn't seem present on the reverse or the devices except in the last picture (cell phone w/ lighted loupe), only the field. Either way I do like the toning around the edges. Sadly I see a couple marks in particular that would probably relegate this to a details if I sent her in.

FYI shes sitting on top of the plastic, not behind for these pictures, so nothing between her and the lenses.

morgandollar1878

Cleaned

TennesseeDave

Maybe some of each, but mostly hairlines from being wiped. IMO

Broadstruck

From an old time cleaning not die polish.

spyglassdesign

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

bsshog40

Your top pictures looks like vertical lines that made me think die polish but your bottom picture shows horizontal lines which looks like cleaning lines. Could be a possibility of both. The cleaning lines would stop it from getting a numerical grade. Jmo

justindan

Cleaned, would prevent straight grade.

Broadstruck

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

Probably better as an album filer as I doubt it would straight grade and as the 77-S is a common date not sure it's worth being in a details holder.

PerryHall

Harshly cleaned. It would get a details grade so don't waste your money getting it slabbed.

spyglassdesign

@Broadstruck said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

Probably better as an album filer as I doubt it would straight grade and as the 77-S is a common date not sure it's worth being in a details holder.

That's what I'm thinking. Well a learning experience for sure. I ended up sending it back because I thought it was cleaning but some suggested here it could be die polish, so since I got it back I can't return it now. Live and learn 🫣

What's confusing to me is both directional lines appear only in the fields which would make sense as die polish as that's the highest part of the die. They continue in between some of the stars on the right as well.

Steven59

Too bad, cleaned, you can see the swipe go from the right fields then across the details. If it was die polishing I don't think you would see them that pronounced, if at all, after all the years of circulation and collectible handling.

spyglassdesign

@Steven59 said:
Too bad, cleaned, you can see the swipe go from the right fields then across the details. If it was die polishing I don't think you would see them that pronounced, if at all, after all the years of circulation and collectible handling.

I don't know why that showed on my cell phone pics like that. When looking through my lighted loupe without my cellphone, I can't see any on the devices at all.

Steven59

@spyglassdesign said:

I don't know why that showed on my cell phone pics like that. When looking through my lighted loupe without my cellphone, I can't see any on the devices at all.

Usually higher mag pics show alot more than you can see in hand. I think the TPG's use about 10X mag to examine a coins so they would definitley see that during grading.

spyglassdesign

@Steven59 said:

@spyglassdesign said:

I don't know why that showed on my cell phone pics like that. When looking through my lighted loupe without my cellphone, I can't see any on the devices at all.

Usually higher mag pics show alot more than you can see in hand. I think the TPG's use about 10X mag to examine a coins so they would definitley see that during grading.

My point is I can't see any of that on the devices on 40x magnification with my eyes. Not sure why my phone is making it look like that. I was using the same loupe 40x with my cellphone for those pics.

TomB

That has been scrubbed mightily and with a very heavy hand.

BuffaloIronTail

It's been cleaned (wiped). Die polish would not extend into the recessed areas of the die like the lines on your coin.

Pete

spyglassdesign

@BuffaloIronTail said:
It's been cleaned (wiped). Die polish would not extend into the recessed areas of the die like the lines on your coin.

Pete

I apologize, but when I look directly under 40x mag VS what the cellphone camera with 40x picked up, it doesn't look like that at all on the devices. Not sure what my phone is picking up.

BuffaloIronTail

@spyglassdesign said:

@BuffaloIronTail said:
It's been cleaned (wiped). Die polish would not extend into the recessed areas of the die like the lines on your coin.

Pete

I apologize, but when I look directly under 40x mag VS what the cellphone camera with 40x picked up, it doesn't look like that at all on the devices. Not sure what my phone is picking up.

That's my best guess judging by what your pictures show.

Pete

ricko

I join the consensus and say harsh cleaning.... Cheers, RickO

PTVETTER

I am in the CLEANED camp

airplanenut

Cleaned. Notice how there's dirt around all the devices... once you get too close to a raise part of the coin, a rag can't reach that spot, so the dirt isn't removed. Die polish lines would go right up to the devices and stop there, and there would be no lines on top of the devices.

MFeld

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

Probably better as an album filer as I doubt it would straight grade and as the 77-S is a common date not sure it's worth being in a details holder.

That's what I'm thinking. Well a learning experience for sure. I ended up sending it back because I thought it was cleaning but some suggested here it could be die polish, so since I got it back I can't return it now. Live and learn 🫣

What's confusing to me is both directional lines appear only in the fields which would make sense as die polish as that's the highest part of the die. They continue in between some of the stars on the right as well.

In all seriousness, if someone told you that could be die polish, they’re probably not a good source for information.

BuffaloIronTail

@airplanenut said:
Cleaned. Notice how there's dirt around all the devices... once you get too close to a raise part of the coin, a rag can't reach that spot, so the dirt isn't removed. Die polish lines would go right up to the devices and stop there, and there would be no lines on top of the devices.

Yep. I missed the dirt part.

Pete

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:

In all seriousness, if someone told you that could be die polish, they’re probably not a good source for information.

It was people here, granted sight unseen, after I had left a neutral feedback. Oh well, should have gone with my gut. I may try to find someone local that can actually get eyes on it physically because I can't really get good pics of it. or spend the $40 to send it in and find out once and for all.

spyglassdesign

@airplanenut said:
Cleaned. Notice how there's dirt around all the devices... once you get too close to a raise part of the coin, a rag can't reach that spot, so the dirt isn't removed. Die polish lines would go right up to the devices and stop there, and there would be no lines on top of the devices.

There are no lines on the devices. I'm not sure why my phone made it look that way. Looking through the loupe (40x) with my eyes do not show that. I can't figure out why my phone pics look that way.

justindan

@spyglassdesign the folks here are the best of the best. They represent more experience in numismatics than can be quantified in words. If they are all saying it is cleaned and won't straight grade you can bet on it.

spyglassdesign

Here's a few more from my phone through the 40x loupe that may or may not help. The polish/cleaning lines do not go onto the devices and the 'dirt' is actually toning (which should be evident by the last picture (depending on how they get uploaded). I'm not saying I don't believe you guys (my gut actually said cleaning the first time it was in my hands) but many of you are saying things that I realize my last 2 pics made look apparent but weren't true (such as the marks being on the devices - they are not).

Thanks for all the feedback, and hopefully these help clarify a couple things. If not I will probably need to get some other physical eyes on it since it's almost impossible to photo well. Maybe the next coin show I attend.

spyglassdesign

@justindan said:
@spyglassdesign the folks here are the best of the best. They represent more experience in numismatics than can be quantified in words. If they are all saying it is cleaned and won't straight grade you can bet on it.

OH I know this that's why I asked here, but If my pictures tell an incorrect story then I'm going to get incorrect or skewed opinions. This particular coin has been the toughest for me to get an accurate depiction of (as seen by comments about dirt or cleaning marks on the devices - my pictures were misleading). If my last photos I just uploaded don't help them I'll have to find someone to physically look at it since I obviously can't photo it well enough to tell the whole story.

TomB

@spyglassdesign said:

@airplanenut said:
Cleaned. Notice how there's dirt around all the devices... once you get too close to a raise part of the coin, a rag can't reach that spot, so the dirt isn't removed. Die polish lines would go right up to the devices and stop there, and there would be no lines on top of the devices.

There are no lines on the devices. I'm not sure why my phone made it look that way. Looking through the loupe (40x) with my eyes do not show that. I can't figure out why my phone pics look that way.

I'm not certain why one would look at a coin with a 40x loupe. Truly, that magnification is likely useless nearly 100% of the time. The graders at the TPGs use their eyes and, if they need, might use 5x or 10x if there is a possible issue, but 40x is overkill. I use my eyes and carry a 5x with me, but use a 10x from time-to-time. Nothing more than that.

I don't know why you are not seeing the lines in-hand the way they show up in images, but I often tell folks that "the camera doesn't lie" and I mean that the camera is objectively (no pun intended!) recording what its detector sees under the ambient conditions. You may say nothing is there, but something is going on with the surfaces that the camera is recording. Of course, anyone can attempt to minimize or maximize certain aspects of a coin through photography, but the camera is only doing its job without any underlying motive.

Could all those lines in the images be from die polish? I guess, but my experience and my eyes are telling me that they aren't. However, you have the coin in-hand and you believe they are die polish.

MFeld

However imperfectly the images might be portraying the coin, there’s enough there to determine that it’s been cleaned - and not just lightly so.

spyglassdesign

@tomb because that was what was sold to me by a coin dealer (the 40x).🫣 And to be clear I actually did think it was cleaned originally. And still am on the fence, leaning towards still cleaned. The only explanation I can think of is the phone camera software is doing something to the pictures, seemingly show something I can't even see with my own eyes in the same configuration 🤷

I think this one needs a fresh pair of eyes on it since I can't seem to photo it well.

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:
However imperfectly the images might be portraying the coin, there’s enough there to determine that it’s been cleaned - and not just lightly so.

OK, thanks.

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:
However imperfectly the images might be portraying the coin, there’s enough there to determine that it’s been cleaned - and not just lightly so.

For my education for future... Polish lines can go multiple directions? Or do they typically only go one direction?

MFeld

@spyglassdesign said:

@MFeld said:
However imperfectly the images might be portraying the coin, there’s enough there to determine that it’s been cleaned - and not just lightly so.

For my education for future... Polish lines can go multiple directions? Or do they typically only go one direction?

They can go in different directions, but I think it’s fair to say that they’re more likely to go primarily in one direction.

FlyingAl

@MFeld said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

Probably better as an album filer as I doubt it would straight grade and as the 77-S is a common date not sure it's worth being in a details holder.

That's what I'm thinking. Well a learning experience for sure. I ended up sending it back because I thought it was cleaning but some suggested here it could be die polish, so since I got it back I can't return it now. Live and learn 🫣

What's confusing to me is both directional lines appear only in the fields which would make sense as die polish as that's the highest part of the die. They continue in between some of the stars on the right as well.

In all seriousness, if someone told you that could be die polish, they’re probably not a good source for information.

Mr. Feld, here is the picture that die polish was suggested from on that last thread:

Obviously, the coin has been cleaned from the images provided here. Claiming that the determination of possible die polish and saying the info was from a poor source without knowing the backstory was a bit hasty in my opinion.

I do not remember anyone stating it was die polish for certain, but based on the above image it was a likely possibility at the time. The new info (images) has since invalidated that suggestion.

MFeld

@FlyingAl said:

@MFeld said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Broadstruck said:
From an old time cleaning not die polish.

I've heard it said that old cleanings can be expected but do they prevent straight grade? I'd assume this one would?

Also of note under magnification they are straight, not in a circular direction or anything. If that makes any difference.

Probably better as an album filer as I doubt it would straight grade and as the 77-S is a common date not sure it's worth being in a details holder.

That's what I'm thinking. Well a learning experience for sure. I ended up sending it back because I thought it was cleaning but some suggested here it could be die polish, so since I got it back I can't return it now. Live and learn 🫣

What's confusing to me is both directional lines appear only in the fields which would make sense as die polish as that's the highest part of the die. They continue in between some of the stars on the right as well.

In all seriousness, if someone told you that could be die polish, they’re probably not a good source for information.

Mr. Feld, here is the picture that die polish was suggested from on that last thread:

Obviously, the coin has been cleaned from the images provided here. Claiming that the determination of possible die polish and saying the info was from a poor source without knowing the backstory was a bit hasty in my opinion.

I do not remember anyone stating it was die polish for certain, but based on the above image it was a likely possibility at the time. The new info (images) has since invalidated that suggestion.

Apologies, as my comments were based on the images I saw.

FlyingAl

@MFeld
No problem, thank you!

spyglassdesign

@FlyingAl no one said it was definitively polish, but I feel like (I don't think it was you) a few members gave me a dressing down for leaving a neutral review and for returning a cleaned coin... So I panicked because I didn't want to mess with someone's reputation unduly... and took it back and modified my review, only to end up getting a lump of coal. It's still a neat coin nonetheless and will use this as a learning tool... And to go with my gut next time. Fortunately this won't have any deleterious effects on me financially so I can suck it up as a hard lesson.

I got a second pair of eyes on it today and they agree it looks like an old cleaning, and he pointed out how the toning basically circles the stars, and doesn't emanate naturally from them.

Thanks again for all the feedback and sorry if it seemed like I was arguing at times. I was only trying to correct what I saw as incorrect observations based on the photos VS what I was seeing.

Till next time 👍

lilolme

I was going to ask if that was the same coin that FlyingAl posted but I see the dark specs in the field near the 13 star so that kind of says yes.
The V in the field in front of the 11 star from FlyingAl photo now appears to be gone?

spyglassdesign

@lilolme it's still there it's just the lighting angle making it disappear.

airplanenut

@spyglassdesign said:

@justindan said:
@spyglassdesign the folks here are the best of the best. They represent more experience in numismatics than can be quantified in words. If they are all saying it is cleaned and won't straight grade you can bet on it.

OH I know this that's why I asked here, but If my pictures tell an incorrect story then I'm going to get incorrect or skewed opinions. This particular coin has been the toughest for me to get an accurate depiction of (as seen by comments about dirt or cleaning marks on the devices - my pictures were misleading). If my last photos I just uploaded don't help them I'll have to find someone to physically look at it since I obviously can't photo it well enough to tell the whole story.

Trust us, your pictures are showing everything we need to see. Don't get hung up on terminology--it can be dirt or it can be toning, the point I was making is that something on the surface didn't get taken off when the coin was cleaned because a rag couldn't get up to the devices. This is a major tell-tale sign of a cleaning. It's not a guaranteed one (namely, if someone works a coin hard enough, they can probably get that bit of dirt/toning off) but it's a good sign. Die polish lines will go right up to the devices. The hairlines from cleaning will go right up to the point where the rag couldn't go any further--the tiny area where the surfaces stay original. Your photos show this incredibly clearly:

I went and looked up the original sale, and these are the photos:

While they certainly make the coin look its best, right off the bat, you can see very light fields and dark color around all the devices. Even without seeing prominent hairlining (and you can still see some--look under the eagle's beak, for example) there's a lot in these photos to raise a red flag. If the coin isn't cleaned, then the change in color in the fields would likely at least be a result of wear, in which case the coin isn't the advertised choice uncirculated. Based on the photos and the fact that the coin is raw, this is not a coin I would buy, certainly not as it was advertised. There are signs, but you have to know to look for them. If this is a coin that looks like something you'd consider original (all the more so if that thought continues when you have it in hand based on the photos you took), and I say this with all due respect, you've got some learning to do, and I would recommend sticking with certified coins or a very trusted dealer. Some coins are liners, but this one is not, and until that's obvious, buying raw, especially from glamor photos, is a risky endeavor.

telephoto1

100%, undeniably, unequivocally CLEANED.

spyglassdesign

@airplanenut the thing that got me sidetracked was that the markings do appear to go up to the devices and stop (stars and whatnot), which is why I was unsure. The small scale of toning made it difficult to tell for sure if the marks were actually 'hitting' the devices as well, but they appeared to even after several reviews.

After reading your last post, I looked again and discovered probably the most telling feature... at the space between her arm and the pole, there is nothing that I can see but on the other side of the pole there is. If it was die polish it should continue 'under' the pole to the other side. Additionally after even further inspection I found another spot where the marks do appear to stop just before the device and the small ring of toning around it (the other areas I can't quite see well enough to determine or appear to continue through the toning to the device).

So like I said, I should have trusted my gut and sent it back, my original feedback was actually accurate despite the blowback I got for it. But, what's done is done and now I will have a piece that if I could I would nail on the wall as a reminder/example.

MFeld

@spyglassdesign said:
@airplanenut the thing that got me sidetracked was that the markings do appear to go up to the devices and stop (stars and whatnot), which is why I was unsure. The small scale of toning made it difficult to tell for sure if the marks were actually 'hitting' the devices as well, but they appeared to even after several reviews.

After reading your last post, I looked again and discovered probably the most telling feature... at the space between her arm and the pole, there is nothing that I can see but on the other side of the pole there is. If it was die polish it should continue 'under' the pole to the other side. Additionally after even further inspection I found another spot where the marks do appear to stop just before the device and the small ring of toning around it (the other areas I can't quite see well enough to determine or appear to continue through the toning to the device).

So like I said, I should have trusted my gut and sent it back, my original feedback was actually accurate despite the blowback I got for it. But, what's done is done and now I will have a piece that if I could I would nail on the wall as a reminder/example.

You sound fixated on the devices and are missing the big picture. Regardless of where they start or end, the hairlines in the fields should have told you all you needed to know.

spyglassdesign

@MFeld said:

You sound fixated on the devices and are missing the big picture. Regardless of where they start or end, the hairlines in the fields should have told you all you needed to know.

More like trying to decipher whether they were die polish or hairlines. From what I've been told and learned the die polish will basically end at the devices and/or go 'under' them. That's what was catching me up, is that they did appear to do that until I looked even closer and longer. As I said I only now noticed the space between the arm and pole was free of the same markings. Would I be right to assume the die polish wouldn't end that abruptly (the width of the pole)?

TomB

@spyglassdesign said:

@MFeld said:

You sound fixated on the devices and are missing the big picture. Regardless of where they start or end, the hairlines in the fields should have told you all you needed to know.

More like trying to decipher whether they were die polish or hairlines. From what I've been told and learned the die polish will basically end at the devices and/or go 'under' them. That's what was catching me up, is that they did appear to do that until I looked even closer and longer. As I said I only now noticed the space between the arm and pole was free of the same markings. Would I be right to assume the die polish wouldn't end that abruptly (the width of the pole)?

In your first thread on this coin I provided three exceptionally clear and large images of coins I own with die polish on them and purposely chose one coin with die polish limited mostly to the fields, one with die polish primarily on the devices and one smothered in die polish. I also explained that die polish can be everywhere or no where and even placed circles around the die polish areas so you could see them better.

TomB

For your reference-

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13313707#Comment_13313707

spyglassdesign

@TomB said:
For your reference-

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13313707#Comment_13313707

Thanks. I guess I need to see them in person at some point because some of those look no different on screen than what I was seeing in person. I can see by 2nd and 4th picture that they are raised as opposed to cut into the surface, not as obvious on the other 2.

It was actually the response immediately after your post (and one or two others) that caused me to doubt my decision and consider (and eventually) backtracking and end up with a dud (and a strong lesson!).

Oh well. Nothing I can do about it now but suck it up and learn from it. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger I guess?

Thanks again for your feedback (and everyone else who helped). Several of you pointed out specifics that will help me make better decisions in the future.

Hopefully someone will come along and learn from my own mistakes.

coinkat

Die polish lines are raised on the surface of the coin. Based on the several images posted, we can clearly see the lines are hairlines penetrating into the fields. The SLQ posted will not straight grade.

Take a careful look at some late date WLH or Franklin Halves under a microscope or a high powered glass something like 15x so you can really see the difference. There is no harm in using a 15x glass- you likely will be criticized as I have been... And my candid response is usually... I am the one buying the coin and I want to see exactly what I am buying.

That response usually ends that discussion.

lilolme

Oh no, I am going to go against the grain a little here. Blast away at me if I am messed up.

@spyglassdesign I see some of what you are saying. The problem is the vertical lines don't look good as many have pointed out. However, some of the other lines look to be raised and like die polish lines. I think you could have both and that could be confusing.

So again first the vertical lines don't look good but I want take a closer look at some of the others.

This is the opposite of the discussion (left side of coin) and one of the 2nd set of photos you posted and blown up. The light is to the upper right. Notice how on the larger lines the near side to the light (upper right) is lit up. This is what would happen if the line is raised. They go up to the body also. They appear to look line die polish lines.

Again from 2nd set of photos and blown up but on the side under discussion. The light is to the upper right again. Same as before on the larger lines the near side to the light is lit up indicating the line is raised. Also in the field there are several cuts or hits and all of them that I can see cut through or interrupt the lines. This would also be true if cleaned and then all the contact marks happened after cleaning. The lines again go up to Liberty. They give an impression of die polish lines.

spyglass mentioned that these lines did not continue to the area in the field past the arm. This could be true if they were just polishing the field to remove an imperfection in the die in that area.

There appears to be a disturbance in many of the photos in the field at about 2 to 3 o/c. I can't tell what it is if anything. However, I am wondering if they polished out some clash marks.

spyglassdesign

@lilolme interesting. Nice job blowing up my pics to highlight certain factors. it's also interesting to note that the discoloration around the stars is pretty circular, making it appear like someone was trying to clean around them and didn't want to get too close.

Looking at your blown up pics does make it looks like the hairlines/polish lines or whatever they are, do actually go into the small discolored areas around the devices. I couldn't see that with my eyeballs even under magnification. Obviously my camera(s) caught it under zoom and appropriate lighting.

This has certainly been a great debate. I think I may just have to spend the $40 or so just to find out once and for all. Granted it may not be an absolute answer anyways since they spend what, a minute or so looking at a coin?