Sterling Cup by 1652 Massachusetts Coiners John Hull and Robert Sanderson, Sr sells at HA

Weiss

You might know that I collect 18th century (specifically pre-Revolutionary War) sterling silver beer mugs. These pieces are, to my mind, integral with the coinage at the time: They are made of sterling silver, they're dated, they have the maker's (coiner, designer) initials, and even bear a "mint mark" denoting the city in which they were made. Silver was weighed and traded as money, regardless of the form, in early silver- and gold- coin-starved America.

The current key to my collection is a cann, or unlidded, bulbous mug, circa 1770 made by Ephraim Brasher. George Washington was a next door neighbor, friend, and patron of Ephraim Brasher who we know from his gold Brasher Doubloons--considered by many to be the key to early or "post-colonial" American coinage. Again, the ties that bind coinage and early silver pieces are inextricable:

Interestingly, a piece came up for sale yesterday at Heritage that flat out smokes my Brasher piece. This is a "Caudle Cup", circa 1670, created by first the English silversmiths in the colonies and our first mint masters John Hull and Robert Sanderson, Sr, in the same room where they struck the iconic early Massachusetts "NE", Willow, Oak, and Pine Tree coinage. Their apprentice, the American born engraver of the first paper currency released in the colonies, was Jeremiah Drummer, Sr.

The hallmarks of all three men appear on this piece.

"Caudle" is a warm drink consisting of gruel (oatmeal or some other cereal grain meal) mixed with wine or ale, sweetened and spiced. Caudle was a 17th century English staple. Caudle Cups were also used in christening and communion by our Puritan forefathers, who rejected a single more ornate chalice in favor of multiple individual unadorned cups.

Per Heritage, only 31 pieces of "hollow ware" from John Hull and Robert Sanderson survive from the 17th century. The provenance of this piece is undisputed. From the Farmington Church in 1670 until it was sold in 2005.

It sold at auction yesterday, 08-22-22, for $140,000 including the juice:
Circa 1670 Hull and Sanderson Silver Caudle Cup
Ex: Farmington Church
From the workshop of John Hull and Robert Sanderson, Sr., and bearing their touchmarks.
3 5/8" x 6 ½". 239 g.

Nic

Great thread. Thank you.

lilolme

I saw this in the HA auction as it was right at the top of the list when initially (before sorting) looking at the lots. I thought it was kind of cool and would watch it. It quickly went well over anything I was thinking. Then to a level that I recognized that I didn't really understand what I was looking at. The final number added to that.

Weiss

This is one of those pieces that is priceless to some people, but not to others. As a piece of early American history, with its connection to coins--especially the beginnings of our Anglo-American coinage--it'd be hard to match.
But it's also hard to value. For example, a single VF35 "NE" shilling also made by Hull & Sanderson sold yesterday for $108,000.
Which would you rather have? If you're 100% coins because they're coins, then the answer is obvious. But if you appreciate the history, the lives lived around these pieces of our past, you might lean to the cup.

TomB

That's pretty dang cool. However, of the two cups (your EB and the present cup) the EB cup speaks to me more.

BillJones

I would always go with the coin. I am not good a storing big 3-D items, and if I got too many of them, my wife would go bonkers. I like pictures of John Hull and Robert Sanderson's work, but I would pass on owning it at a fraction of the price.

While I would love to own an NE Shilling, there is only so many coins in that price range I can afford. Right now it's limited to three, and one of them might not be worth that any more, so I have to pass.

Treashunt

I have dreamed of the NE since I read about it in the Red Book as a kid.

So, I'd have to say--

The coin, sorry

justmenutty72

Very very cool 👌😎

asheland

That 17th century American silver is a true national treasure! Splendid stuff.

MidLifeCrisis

@Weiss - everything about this thread is great!

Maywood

I would expect that cups were melted to make coins, I wouldn't think coins would be melted to make cups. I would take the coin but the cup is probably more useful.

Weiss

@Maywood said:
I would expect that cups were melted to make coins, I wouldn't think coins would be melted to make cups. I would take the coin but the cup is probably more useful.

You'd think that. But melting circulating 92.5% pure "sterling" silver coins to make hollowware (cups, mugs, plates, bowls, etc), was so prevalent, resulting in constant coin shortages, that in 1697 the English government mandated that these items had to be made from the higher purity 95.833% pure "Brittania" silver. This caused silversmiths to procure their raw silver stock directly from refiners, which was likely more cost effective than adding pure silver to circulating coins. The Brittania standard was in place for decades, until the laws were finally relaxed in 1720.

"Coin silver" was (and likely still is) a loose standard for American Indian jewelry, and it was for 19th & 20th century hollowware made in the US. Circulating 90% silver was the easiest silver raw material to find, and it was a purity Americans were familiar with. Chuck it into the crucible or hammer it out as needed.

kaz

Great thread, Weiss. Your Brasher mug is awesome. have you every tried making "caudle?"

Weiss

@kaz said:
Great thread, Weiss. Your Brasher mug is awesome. have you every tried making "caudle?"

Thanks. No, I haven't tried making it. Doesn't sound too bad. And it's vegan!

Zoins

@Weiss said:
You might know that I collect 18th century (specifically pre-Revolutionary War) sterling silver beer mugs. These pieces are, to my mind, integral with the coinage at the time: They are made of sterling silver, they're dated, they have the maker's (coiner, designer) initials, and even bear a "mint mark" denoting the city in which they were made. Silver was weighed and traded as money, regardless of the form, in early silver- and gold- coin-starved America.

The current key to my collection is a cann, or unlidded, bulbous mug, circa 1770 made by Ephraim Brasher. George Washington was a next door neighbor, friend, and patron of Ephraim Brasher who we know from his gold Brasher Doubloons--considered by many to be the key to early or "post-colonial" American coinage. Again, the ties that bind coinage and early silver pieces are inextricable:

That's very cool!

Given how much space these take up, I was wondering if you and others that own these still use them? Like people driving classic cars?

Weiss

@Zoins said:

That's very cool!

Given how much space these take up, I was wondering if you and others that own these still use them? Like people driving classic cars?

They really don't take up that much space. But the answer is yes, I use them on occasion

Zoins

@Weiss said:

@Zoins said:

That's very cool!

Given how much space these take up, I was wondering if you and others that own these still use them? Like people driving classic cars?

They really don't take up that much space. But the answer is yes, I use them on occasion

We should grab a few drinks while enjoying some Brashers

Here's one of mine from Ron Landis.

ricko

@Weiss... Great thread... And I see you still have 'my' mug... that perhaps one day you will sell to me.... Only been bugging you about it for six or seven years... Nice Caudle cup.... Cheers, RickO