New Indian Head penny pickups

spyglassdesign

I'm new to the Indian penny coins. One with the slash on the cheek I got for about $2. Seemed like a good price. The first one was a lot more than that. The slash of course doesn't look half as bad as it looks in the pictures.

Thoughts? Decent pickups? Are these decent samples?

jp84

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that first one (the expensive one) looks like it has been monkeyed with. Note how the fields are one color and then when you get near the devices the fields are a different color. That's usually a sign that someone has polished the coin to erase wear in the fields. Depending on what you paid, I would recommend you take it back to the seller.

LanceNewmanOCC

both are altered color (dipped?) the second one for $2 is a good buy even still.

the first one has potentially been whizzed/polished and still has value but you have to be real careful paying up for coins like that. it can be done and you be ok but best left to those with lots of experience, unless you get them cheap and go into knowing they are problem coins.

TomB

Both have significantly messed up surfaces and unnatural color. I don't know what you paid, but it was too much.

coinbuf

I'll just echo what has been said, the first one looks whizzed to me.

spyglassdesign

Does the second one have a more natural looking color than the first? I know lighting is everything but from what you can tell?

TomB

They're both messed up. Heavily.

spyglassdesign

@TomB said:
They're both messed up. Heavily.

For $2 I'm not worried too much. I have already begun the return process on the other one. The old adage... if it's too good to be true...

coinbuf

I suggest that you learn what you're looking at/for before you buy in the future.

lilolme

@spyglassdesign said:
Does the second one have a more natural looking color than the first? I know lighting is everything but from what you can tell?

I am not a copper collector but one thing you can do is look at auction lots. This will not be the answer but should help some. Here is HA archives for 1901 (and you can sort for other dates or all Indians). If you sort on grade 60-61 it has a lot of details (since many unc details are listed as 60) with cleaned / recolored.... Then can sort on grade 63 or 64... or a circulated grade (not to many for 1901). Again this is not the answer but a piece of information to start with. As you noted color and pictures can vary.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nf=US+Coin+Year|BTWN+1901+1901&N=51+790+231+308&ic4=RemoveFilter-071515

291fifth

Both have been worked on. Bad purchase. You need to learn to spot altered surfaces before you spend another cent on coins. I hate to think of what you paid for the first pictured coin.

Walkerguy21D

@coinbuf said:
I'll just echo what has been said, the first one looks whizzed to me.

Me as well.
Someone ruined what was likely a beautiful and sharply struck light brown cent.

pursuitofliberty

Dr. Dr. ... give me the news ... you got a bad case of getting whizzed on Dude!

First one is a total whiz and color job.

Second one is a dip and strip job on a hack piece.

I can't say it any nicer.

Broadstruck

Glance at and study the original surfaces of MS65-67 examples then take what you've learned and trickle it down to a grade level within your budget.

winesteven

@Broadstruck said:
Glance at and study the original surfaces of MS65-67 examples then take what you've learned and trickle it down to a grade level within your budget.

Perhaps this can help, but the best education is as @Broadstruck implies, looking at the coins in hand rather than photos.




Steve

ricko

This happens to many collectors as they begin. It is called 'tuition'... since basically you are paying for learning about coins/condition. Get a Redbook, use the online resources here on the forum, go to shows and shops and look at coins. Get help if possible, join a local coin club. Cheers, RickO

spyglassdesign

@ricko said:
This happens to many collectors as they begin. It is called 'tuition'... since basically you are paying for learning about coins/condition. Get a Redbook, use the online resources here on the forum, go to shows and shops and look at coins. Get help if possible, join a local coin club. Cheers, RickO

I have a Redbook and do all that. Except for a few gruffians here you guys are usually quite helpful. Unfortunately I didn't even think to look at the Redbook for this one.

JBK

@spyglassdesign said:

@ricko said:
This happens to many collectors as they begin. It is called 'tuition'... since basically you are paying for learning about coins/condition. Get a Redbook, use the online resources here on the forum, go to shows and shops and look at coins. Get help if possible, join a local coin club. Cheers, RickO

I have a Redbook and do all that. Except for a few gruffians here you guys are usually quite helpful. Unfortunately I didn't even think to look at the Redbook for this one.

Just remember, we've all been there. Back in the day there were no forums to join to ask questions. So, you're ahead of where we were in regard to feedback and response time.

Somewhere I have a 1909 VDB cent that i bought as an uncirculated coin years ago. I was always a little skeptical about the color. The next time I come across it I'll take some photos. It should be good for a laugh all these years later. 😀

lkenefic

I don't want to "pile on", but this is one reason that I steer clear of "RD designated" Indian Head Cents... especially raw ones!

FWIW.... and a "Teaching Moment"... compare the color of the two pieces in the OP to @winesteven 's MS66+RD coin. There's a big difference. Also, the surfaces on the OP's 1901, especially on the reverse near ONE CENT, indicate that the surfaces have been altered... likely whizzed.

If you're getting into Indian Head Cents, I highly urge you to get Rick Snow's book. It's the best $20 I ever spent and has saved me countless $$... If you're ever at a big show, go to his table and just look at what real RD-designated IHC's should look like.

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Flying-Eagle-Indian-Cents/dp/0794828310

spyglassdesign

@JBK at least it wasn't as bad as my very first numismatic purchase cause the pawn guy told me yeah it only goes up to 70 and it's a 63... Yeah I overpaid for that st gauden. I will hold onto that as a reminder... I may never get my full money's worth out of it anyways (well maybe in ten years with normal inflation... Maybe less with current inflation lol)

spyglassdesign

@lkenefic thanks for the constructive feedback. I don't consider you piling on. You gave me good insight and ideas not mentioned by others including where to look.

Edit: book ordered, thanks!

lkenefic

@spyglassdesign said:
@lkenefic thanks for the constructive feedback. I don't consider you piling on. You gave me good insight and ideas not mentioned by others including where to look.

Edit: book ordered, thanks!

Not a problem... I cut my "numismatic teeth" on Indian Head Cents when I was a kid and still have a soft spot for the issue. I never finished the series (came close) and I've moved on to other collecting interests but I'll likely include an RB example in my Box of 20.

ricko

@spyglassdesign.... Glad to see you ordered Rick Snow's book, you will be very pleased and learn a lot. Cheers, RickO

pursuitofliberty

@spyglassdesign I'm leaving my comment up, but am going to apologize for the snarky tone it may have had. I was trying to rhyme into a tune and draw a smile, but it was not in the greatest taste. Normally I don't do that.

Knowledge is golden in my book, and you seem to want to expand your knowledge, for which I commend you. I hope you stick around and do just that.

Get a good 30x and study the surface characteristics of these two under a good strong light. Even better if you can get a reasonable MS63 or MS64 from our host to use as a comparison coin. Try to see the surface and luster qualities before you study the color. Even experts have issues with copper color sometimes, but natural and genuine surface qualities should become second nature over time.

Also, generally speaking, recolored or not fully natural toning will be certainly less painful than over-dipped to the point of surface deterioration, where whizzing and tooling is probably worse still.

My 2c

spyglassdesign

@pursuitofliberty it's all good. I took it in stride but appreciate the additional feedback!